Force Barrier to be like stealth in APG nodes

[Master-Nala]

Now that sorcs/sages comprise close to 40% of the composition of any given warzone, and sometimes as high as 80% (I've yet to see 100%), it can feel like it's up all the time.

 

That's fair, but most stacked classes can be a pain.

 

You know he's trolling you, right?

 

I'm really not. I'm challenging assumptions.

[Tsetso]

For 8 seconds out of 180.

 

You guys are behaving as if Sorcs can use Barrier at will. I'm really starting to think that the real problem with Barrier is the feeling that you are helpless to do anything about it. It can't be the actual power's mechanics because it's just not up enough for all this complaining.

 

It's a get out of jail free card. And yes, sorc can use barrier at will - that is the 8+ seconds that are needed to defend a node until help comes. I'd be ok with this if i was able to guard a node or carry a mod in stealth on my op or sin but that's not the case. So we have 3 classes that has their ultimate defenses negated by the rules of this WZ but sorc/sage can use barrier if they want - that's not fair.

 

Add to the mix root on knockback and blind on bubble pop and sorc is the best attacker/defender of the nodes in this WZ. DO YOU THINK IT'S OK? If the answer is yes, i don't think i want to argue with you anymore.

[teclado]

Crap in ranked, really/? I call BS. If you ever played against 2 heal sorc/sages in ranked you'll understand why i instant quit when i see it. Even 2 madness sorc can pressure the opposite healer too much while self healing for a large amount. 2 heal sage/sorc is gg most of the games

Nobody has ever played against two heal sorc/sage in ranked, because that's not how ranked works. There is a maximum of one healer per team. I don't think you've ever played ranked...

 

Madness is pretty good in ranked, but not on the level of Corruption. The huge boost in rating for the Sorcs is due to the fact that everybody knows how good Corruption is, so everybody plays it. This leads to a swarm of players who are not very good at it getting farmed by the ones who are. You see about 150 Sorc/Sage currently over 1600, but don't see the ~2500 that are below 1200 who got farmed.

[foxmob]

For 8 seconds out of 180.

 

You guys are behaving as if Sorcs can use Barrier at will. I'm really starting to think that the real problem with Barrier is the feeling that you are helpless to do anything about it. It can't be the actual power's mechanics because it's just not up enough for all this complaining.

 

you asked. I answered. it's like nothing else any of the other dcds can do. it's something you'd need to combine two very selective CDs to accomplish. and let's not pretend that what the op is asking for is some great shake. simply put: those 8s should not count as having a player there at the node anymore than having a stealth in stealth counts. nobody's saying get rid of barrier (that I know of). bastion, on the other hand...still breaking arenas. sorc (heals) having every tool in the book? yeah. but a different discussion. this one's a little more straightforward.

 

all of that said, I also think it's bogus that ops and sins can blink/holo traverse with the ball in their possession. that's especially crazy for ops that already have roll on a 10s CD. but w/e. just pointing out this isn't the only thing that doesn't belong in the WZs (i.e., makes a mockery of the objectives).

Edited April 26, 2016 by foxmob

[Rantank]

All the trolling in the world isn't going to ever justify sorcs/sages being able to barrier through acid and now let them still register as being present during a cap. It's all shades of wrong and the fact that there are other things that might be a little unfair doesn't in anyway negate the sorc/sage barrier is absurd and needs to be reeled back in. This new map has just opened up another ridiculous advantage to an already overstacked deck.

[Greezt]

I'm really not. I'm challenging assumptions.

 

I'm quite sure you are by now, since you're asking why sorcs don't deserve to hold a node for 8 seconds solo... They don't because no other class can. They don't because other classes have their defenses unusable in certain situations on the map, so it isn't fair that they get a tactical advantage from theirs. They don't because their ability requires 0 skill, other than "use before dead".

 

Obviously you won't agree, but you honestly seem to believe that if devs gave sorcs the ability to fly it would be on me to prove why it's unfair

 

You mentioned other abilities that come close to sorcs' barrier in usefulness on OPG. Please name them. You can skip your beloved entrench+evasion - it's only 3 seconds, and it's only available on one sniper AC.

 

Go on.

[PBoba]

I'm glad to see most people agree.

 

What is the Force barrier DCD supposed to do? Stop a sorc/sage from dying.

 

In no other map does it allow the sorc or sage to do anything other than that - some would argue too well for arenas.

 

But Acid is not this debate. APG is the ONLY map which allows force barrier to do other than that single effect.

Stealth drops the huttball. FB drops the hutt ball. Stealth does not let you cap or take any nodes in the game. Same should apply here.

 

Entrench is irrelevant. All other CDs are irrelevant. THey fulfil their purpose consistently. FB's cooldown or uptime is irrelevant. Look at its purpose; look how it is inconsistent with its operation in every other regard, and has a huge impact on APG map in particular.

 

It's clearly an oversight and should be fixed.

Edited April 26, 2016 by PBoba

[PBoba]

all of that said, I also think it's bogus that ops and sins can blink/holo traverse with the ball in their possession. that's especially crazy for ops that already have roll on a 10s CD. but w/e. just pointing out this isn't the only thing that doesn't belong in the WZs (i.e., makes a mockery of the objectives).

 

Yeah, I hate the things that can be done with the huttball, but that is another debate. I'm clearly not saying get rid of FB. But pull it into line with its singular purpose - saving the sage's life. If they choose to break at 3s to keep the node, god bless them. But as it stands it is out of step with its own function, and the design and spirit of APG.

[-Bob-]

Nothing but Herpes here, there is no bump cure in APG

[MusicRider]

Entrench allows snipers to cast mods, but that's it. You can still kill the sniper while he's guarding.

Enraged defenses is fine, just push/pull and mezz/cc the jugg... You can still cap just fine if he has it up.

Force shroud does nothing to prevent a cap (unless you're a sorc). 5 seconds of force/tech immunity is nothing most classes can't deal with. Yes, some classes (sorcs/ops) will have trouble with it, but there's nothing special here.

 

The problem with bubble is that it's the "F*** you, I'm out" ability that has no direct counter, but more than that it affects objective play. No other ability comes even close to that.

 

Edit: also, 8 seconds is only assuming that the sorc is out/dead after bubble ends... What actually happens is that they will heal up (assuming they don't have the H2F utility), bubble themselves and basically hold out for another 8-∞ seconds (depending on the opposition). Give me another CD that can occupy a full team for as long as bubble.

 

Wasn't going to reply here since many posts show that the posters lack knowledge of classes. But are you for real that shroud is nothing? It's one of the best if not the best dcd in the game. And by the way what do you mean "unless you are a sorc", sorcs have no shroud. That's what I mean by lack of class knowledge.

[MusicRider]

I'm quite sure you are by now, since you're asking why sorcs don't deserve to hold a node for 8 seconds solo... They don't because no other class can. They don't because other classes have their defenses unusable in certain situations on the map, so it isn't fair that they get a tactical advantage from theirs. They don't because their ability requires 0 skill, other than "use before dead".

 

Obviously you won't agree, but you honestly seem to believe that if devs gave sorcs the ability to fly it would be on me to prove why it's unfair

 

You mentioned other abilities that come close to sorcs' barrier in usefulness on OPG. Please name them. You can skip your beloved entrench+evasion - it's only 3 seconds, and it's only available on one sniper AC.

 

Go on.

 

Entrench+evasion is 6s every 3 mins plus if you add roll that extends to at least 9s or more without need to self-stun or break early. I suggest you play or at least read on the other classes.

 

Ps: just realised that you are the post I replied about shroud also. Certainly need to know a bit more about the other classes.

Edited April 26, 2016 by MusicRider

[Rantank]

Wasn't going to reply here since many posts show that the posters lack knowledge of classes. But are you for real that shroud is nothing? It's one of the best if not the best dcd in the game. And by the way what do you mean "unless you are a sorc", sorcs have no shroud. That's what I mean by lack of class knowledge.

 

I did not read this the same way you did apparently and don't see anything wrong with what he said. I don't see him saying that sorcs have force shroud. I read it to say that force shroud wasn't a good CD unless they were up against a sorc...at which point the force/tech immunity DOES make it a good cool down you can use to cap with.

[Greezt]

Entrench+evasion is 6s every 3 mins plus if you add roll that extends to at least 9s or more without need to self-stun or break early. I suggest you play or at least read on the other classes.

 

Ps: just realised that you are the post I replied about shroud also. Certainly need to know a bit more about the other classes.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about with 6/9 seconds. You have obviously not read my posts. Are you taking about bag of tricks? If so, read my posts and see why it is almost completely irrelevant.

 

Also, I suggest you work on your reading comprehension.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Greezt

[Appolonia]

For 8 seconds out of at most 180 seconds. So 4% uptime or less.

 

Would be interesting to get the % uptime of "Sniper" + "With entrench" + "Got a red pill". Knowing how the #1 are rare (and obviously the #2 even more), repop time of pills / need to actually go catch em, and absolute randomness of red out of 4 colors, thanks to ping/lag.

 

However biased you are, bubble is a far more reliable / easy asset, point blank. Sure there are other options, each depending on a large number of factors, but bubble + all those pesky sorc/sage tricks are the thing.

 

It's been said that the problem is not about the bubble itself but the fact it's out of its primary goal in there. Sure it's not a huge asset in regular node guarding, so there was no need to actually nerf it up to now, sure it has to be up, and so on, but as far in logic as you should go, it shall disable tagging/guarding when you use it, just because it actually prevents you from doing anything (if you want to maintain it) and kinda "removes" you for 8 secs.

[MusicRider]

I did not read this the same way you did apparently and don't see anything wrong with what he said. I don't see him saying that sorcs have force shroud. I read it to say that force shroud wasn't a good CD unless they were up against a sorc...at which point the force/tech immunity DOES make it a good cool down you can use to cap with.

 

Shroud gives cc immunity and all classes have force/tech attacks and procs relying on them. It has no penalties and at 1min cd is excellent.

[MusicRider]

I have no idea what you're talking about with 6/9 seconds. You have obviously not read my posts. Are you taking about bag of tricks? If so, read my posts and see why it is almost completely irrelevant.

 

Also, I suggest you work on your reading comprehension.

 

Glad you looked bag of tricks up.

[Rantank]

Shroud gives cc immunity and all classes have force/tech attacks and procs relying on them. It has no penalties and at 1min cd is excellent.

 

Now you're moving the goal posts. This was specifically in regard to using force-shroud to stop a cap... which it can't do except maybe against a sorc. There is no inherent CC immunity in it... just the 200% resist to attacks. It only lasts for 3 seconds unless it's talented but I don't think many would as emmersion and Audacity are too good. Another talent point lets shroud kick in for 2 seconds after a force cloak as well. With good timing you can add another 2 seconds without losing the cap.... but.... again I doubt many tanks would take it (however I think dps do). After all, there is another point there called Deflection, which grants 6 seconds of CC immunity when Deflection is used. Maybe that was the DCD you were thinking of? I've never taken that point though as it is only useful for huttball as a carrier and this new map.

 

A tank could certainly spec specifically for this map, but then they'd lose two fundamental sources of CC and be far less useful at pvp tanking. Possible though if they ran in a group set up with this in mind. However, sins can't go immortal to all damage, and will be killed easily if their CC abilities are cut in half. Point against sorcs though is all their toys are in their baseline spec and the perks of being a sorc. Make deflection baseline for all assassins while keeping all their other perks and you might have a point. But that would be OP.... kind of like sorcs are right now given the mechanics of the maps.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Rantank

[QuiveringPotato]

I'm simply stating my experience with the class.

I've been playing since 2012.

 

A sorc with Bastion can and will use that red mod. I always carry grenades these days and know how/when to stun.

Sorcs with Bastion are immune to my stuns. I have seen Jugs push them to no avail. They just continue channeling the mod.

Maybe it's a bug since it's not in the notes, I don't know, but it's happening.

 

Sorcs are not immune to CC after using Barrier. I frequently flashbang a sorc after they've sat in barrier for the entire duration and have the full effect of Enduring Bastion.

 

It's just interrupt immunity and a HUUUUGE absorb shield (basically immune to damage, maybe if you have 4 PT's with 8 grenades on you at once then it could pop it).

 

Still a retarded ability.

[Ruhun]

Sorcs are not immune to CC after using Barrier. I frequently flashbang a sorc after they've sat in barrier for the entire duration and have the full effect of Enduring Bastion.

 

It's just interrupt immunity and a HUUUUGE absorb shield (basically immune to damage, maybe if you have 4 PT's with 8 grenades on you at once then it could pop it).

 

Still a retarded ability.

 

It's apparently a bug with mods, like another user stated.

They can channel the mod with Bastion so it feels like they are immune to CC.

[MusicRider]

Now you're moving the goal posts. This was specifically in regard to using force-shroud to stop a cap... which it can't do except maybe against a sorc. There is no inherent CC immunity in it... just the 200% resist to attacks. It only lasts for 3 seconds unless it's talented but I don't think many would as emmersion and Audacity are too good. Another talent point lets shroud kick in for 2 seconds after a force cloak as well. With good timing you can add another 2 seconds without losing the cap.... but.... again I doubt many tanks would take it (however I think dps do). After all, there is another point there called Deflection, which grants 6 seconds of CC immunity when Deflection is used. Maybe that was the DCD you were thinking of? I've never taken that point though as it is only useful for huttball as a carrier and this new map.

 

A tank could certainly spec specifically for this map, but then they'd lose two fundamental sources of CC and be far less useful at pvp tanking. Possible though if they ran in a group set up with this in mind. However, sins can't go immortal to all damage, and will be killed easily if their CC abilities are cut in half. Point against sorcs though is all their toys are in their baseline spec and the perks of being a sorc. Make deflection baseline for all assassins while keeping all their other perks and you might have a point. But that would be OP.... kind of like sorcs are right now given the mechanics of the maps.

 

As far as dps shadows goes taking the extra 2secs is one of the very viable options, taking the shroud on cloak is not really. And since all stuns are force/tech attacks it basically gives cc immunity for its duration.

Edited April 26, 2016 by MusicRider

[MusicRider]

It's apparently a bug with mods, like another user stated.

They can channel the mod with Bastion so it feels like they are immune to CC.

 

Bastion is an effect after barrier. It gives , as another user pointed out, interrupt immunity, and depending on the time spent during barrier an absorb shield and if specced healing. Best thing to do during bastion is to cc them, as it gives no cc immunity. Also last clarification, during barrier you can't touch a sorc and as long as he wants to keep barrier he can't touch you, during bastion he is free to do whatever he wants. Hope this helps you understand what barrier and bastion are.

[Master-Nala]

Would be interesting to get the % uptime of "Sniper" + "With entrench" + "Got a red pill". Knowing how the #1 are rare (and obviously the #2 even more), repop time of pills / need to actually go catch em, and absolute randomness of red out of 4 colors, thanks to ping/lag.

 

OK, forget the red pill, any mod. But the uptime of Entrench is 33% the uptime for Evasion is 5%. Entrench + Evasion is functionally invincibility for 3 seconds out of 60. Which is 9 seconds out of 180. Whereas Barrier is 8 out of 180.

 

However biased you are, bubble is a far more reliable / easy asset, point blank. Sure there are other options, each depending on a large number of factors, but bubble + all those pesky sorc/sage tricks are the thing.

 

You guys call me biased, but you say things like "far more reliable." Entrench is pushing a button, Evasion is pushing a button, roll is pushing a button. All DCD are easy use.

 

It's been said that the problem is not about the bubble itself but the fact it's out of its primary goal in there. Sure it's not a huge asset in regular node guarding, so there was no need to actually nerf it up to now, sure it has to be up, and so on, but as far in logic as you should go, it shall disable tagging/guarding when you use it, just because it actually prevents you from doing anything (if you want to maintain it) and kinda "removes" you for 8 secs.

 

So is what you guys want that Barrier means you can't hold a node in OPG? Fine, but then disallow all DCDs. Make a heal debuff, remove any ability to protect yourself.

 

Look, Sorcerers were designed to have one DCD and to use heals/controls to protect themselves. Let's stop pretending that this is anything other than sour grapes. 8 seconds is not swinging any games. The power just annoys you all. A fair point can me made that the battle mods should drop when you barrier. But complaining about a power that can be used once or twice a warzone is silly.

 

Call me biased all you want. I don't whine or complain about other classes. I play them all and understand the mechanics of most classes. Thus I can see where other classes have comparable options. Every single one of these Sorc whine threads has someone who:

 

1) Doesn't understand the powers they are complaining about;

2) Doesn't understand the options available to other classes;

3) Won't accept that anyone can have a contrary opinion without being biased.

 

EDIT:

 

FWIW, I think there is only one class that has any legitimate complaint re this map and that's Mercs. I can't think of one other classes that should have any problem hold a node against 1-2 attackers long enough for help to come.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Master-Nala

[Rantank]

Wait... barrier doesn't drop mods either? ***? Seriously? This entire thing is out of hand. How is this good for the game?

[Ruhun]

Bastion is an effect after barrier. It gives , as another user pointed out, interrupt immunity, and depending on the time spent during barrier an absorb shield and if specced healing. Best thing to do during bastion is to cc them, as it gives no cc immunity. Also last clarification, during barrier you can't touch a sorc and as long as he wants to keep barrier he can't touch you, during bastion he is free to do whatever he wants. Hope this helps you understand what barrier and bastion are.

 

I know what they are and what they do, but when they are channeling mods I was not able to CC sorcs.

They weren't white barred either, I know what Resolve is.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Ruhun

[OmegaDagger]

@Master-nala

 

As someone who recently came back to swtor after several years, I feel like you are that frog in the boiling water. The water got turned up so slowly that you didnt noticed that you are being boiled alive.

 

Force Barrier shouldnt even be a skill. It doesnt even make sense.

 

Projects a Force Barrier around you, granting immunity to all control, damage, and negative effects while channelled. This ability does not affect the Global Cooldown and can be used while controlled. While you are protected by Force Barrier, charges will build up and grant Enduring Bastion, a shield that absorbs an amount of damage based off the charges that are present when Force Barrier ends. Enduring Bastion also grants immunity to interrupts.

 

So, let me get this straight. You think it is ok for a class to have a 100% damage/cc/movement immunity for 8 secs, that can be cast while stunned. Also, it builds a second defensive cd that grants damage reduction and interrupt immunity? Not to mention the fact that you (if you choose) can break the channel early. What planet are you from? Stack on top of that, you can hold power ups and cap/defend nodes while using it.

 

The skill is broken and massively OP. It does EVERYTHING with zero drawbacks for a longer time than any other skill in its class.