To all the people who say premades are ruining pvp ...

[Icykill_]

Ranked is only arenas though, so if you want to play some Civil War or Voidstar you have to queue regs.

People expect effort, not necessarily skill, and that's something a lot of PvE players lack. They simply don't care, they are in it for companions or conquest and will sit out the match.

 

Here, here, well put. Couldn't have said it better myself

[Icykill_]

I think i'm gonna try WoW again and just level my characters up through the free xpac, try and relearn how to play em and start Queing BGs just because its different again.

 

Have fun, tell us if it's any better than this mess

[Icykill_]

But they are upset... most of the elitists in regs see a guy without full 2018 expertise and go ballistic and bail. Even expecting someone who does not PvP to understand what Bolster even is is a little bit of a reach.

In general you are correct but even IF they did their homework, if they did all these things... people STILL complain and eviscerate them and leave the match before it start based on nothing but their gear, ive seen it 100 time at least including full premades.

 

You are right in the comparisons though exaggerating slightly. The issue isnt gear level in pvp, its the lack of expertise, which can only be acquired thru doing pvp. Even though you can literally get a full set in one night in most cases its still takes that night to get it. There is no other medium to get it unlike PvE where you can do SM to get the gear to move up to HM etc... Regs are the SM of PvP, its that simple.

 

You know what really rubs us the wrong way?

Are the people in the highest lvl PVE gear that come into PVP and still don't have weapon or off hand crystals..

I can accept a newbie still in greens and blues without custom gear that are missing these.. But how the hell do these PVE people with the highest lvl PVE gear miss having crystals?

On top of that they are extremely rude if you politely point out they are missing.. That is why we leave, we just get sick of trying to help people who don't care and abuse you if you try to help... No point in staying, it's an instant loss and a waste of my valuable game time.

To make matters worse that high lvl gear gimps them so much they would be better running naked.

[OmegaDagger]

Any good player will tell you that they dont care if someone is undergeared or new. All they care about is if someone is willing to learn.

 

You are right, you have to pvp to get comms so you can gear. You also have to pvp to learn how to pvp, and everyone had a first time. That isnt the issue. The issue is that people expect to be good, and win, without first being bad and losing. I am going to tell you a secret, if you are a "solo quer" who complains about losing to "premades", then you arent good. You just arent.

 

You dont want a "fair" game, because high skilled players working together and using every advantage they can get, including voice over programs, simul-queing, and "broken comps", is fair. You just arent using the same tools.

 

P.S. I am not saying you shouldnt solo que. I am also not saying that there arent very highly skilled solo-quers. They just arent whining when they lose to a team.

Edited April 20, 2016 by OmegaDagger

[-Bob-]

Its notr really that different... lol. But i understand the sentiment.

I've tried other games, have one i like a lot that has solid PvP even though its still an MMO with PvE options.

WoW, cant say i can envision ever going back, but good luck to you.

 

I'm sure i'll get tired of it after a month, i quit playing it when this game launched its early access.

[Floplag]

I haven't done SMs in a very long time, but in pvp all it takes is them not having ****** PvE 208s. They will get bolstered to 19xx and be able to survive and contribute. If not then enjoy that 35k crit.

 

Fair enough but that has nothing to do with how people treat or perceive them. People leave WZs if a person is anything other than full pvp gear regardless of any other considerations most of the time.

 

Were going in circles off on unrelated topics now... it has nothing to do with how bolster works, or what gear a player should or should not be in, it has to do with how the community reacts to those players and the expectations they put on them at that level.

 

What do you expect a person to have to do entry level end game PvE? There is an equivalent answer for PvP that most completely ignore.

 

If you are a pvper you make sure you hit max level with enough comms to get you started at minimum, if you are not you make due with the best pve gear you have.

 

To put the same too high expectations on all players in PvE is simply not based on the reality of these games and you are using your definitions to define right and wrong on people that do not share your views. Even if you are right, it isnt applicable.

[Floplag]

You know what really rubs us the wrong way?

Are the people in the highest lvl PVE gear that come into PVP and still don't have weapon or off hand crystals..

I can accept a newbie still in greens and blues without custom gear that are missing these.. But how the hell do these PVE people with the highest lvl PVE gear miss having crystals?

On top of that they are extremely rude if you politely point out they are missing.. That is why we leave, we just get sick of trying to help people who don't care and abuse you if you try to help... No point in staying, it's an instant loss and a waste of my valuable game time.

To make matters worse that high lvl gear gimps them so much they would be better running naked.

 

i agree with this but thats not really what we are talking about.. You guys are using extreme examples that virtually anyone, myself included, would agree with... how a person cannot realize they are missing crystals is beyond me especially when they get the nice message telling them to look. But... these are extremes, and im with you on these.

Where i differ is those players that have realized all that and are just not fully geared, which is FAR more common. Yet when most people see that they hit eject before the match even starts. Its not the same thing.

[Icykill_]

i agree with this but thats not really what we are talking about.. You guys are using extreme examples that virtually anyone, myself included, would agree with... how a person cannot realize they are missing crystals is beyond me especially when they get the nice message telling them to look. But... these are extremes, and im with you on these.

Where i differ is those players that have realized all that and are just not fully geared, which is FAR more common. Yet when most people see that they hit eject before the match even starts. Its not the same thing.

 

I try to stay even when I see people aren't geared. But I understand why some people leave. When you have a limited window to play in, you want to enjoy yourself. If you keep popping into match after match with people who aren't geared or don't really want to be there, then you get frustrated. As that frustration grows it turns into rage and at that point you aren't having fun anymore. So to avoid that frustration or rage, people look at who is on the team, what gear they have on and if they think it's going to impact on their fun, they leave, It's not great for the team, but what can you do.

I will leave matches before they start if I know it's going to get my blood pressure up. If I keep popping the same people, then I log out of the game completely. My health and sanity is worth more than some game.

There are so many problems and issues in this game that most of what we all discuss in the forums are just symptoms of the underlying issues with how Bio run/develop/support this game.

Wether people are for premades or against, the issue has been here since launch because that is how they designed the game. Back then they could have made changes and implimented some better systems and listened to some of the great ideas I've read in these forums over the years. Back then we had a big enough population to support all these good ideas and to have different queues. But they neglected it, the game got sick and all these problems are symptoms of that illness.

[Ruhun]

Fair enough but that has nothing to do with how people treat or perceive them. People leave WZs if a person is anything other than full pvp gear regardless of any other considerations most of the time.

 

Were going in circles off on unrelated topics now... it has nothing to do with how bolster works, or what gear a player should or should not be in, it has to do with how the community reacts to those players and the expectations they put on them at that level.

 

What do you expect a person to have to do entry level end game PvE? There is an equivalent answer for PvP that most completely ignore.

 

If you are a pvper you make sure you hit max level with enough comms to get you started at minimum, if you are not you make due with the best pve gear you have.

 

To put the same too high expectations on all players in PvE is simply not based on the reality of these games and you are using your definitions to define right and wrong on people that do not share your views. Even if you are right, it isnt applicable.

 

The community reacts this way because at level 65 people expect a certain level of competency.

I understand that they player may have never queued before, we've all been there, but their refusal to do the bare minimum irritates others.

Some have a shorter fuse than I do, so they quit as soon as they see players aren't up to snuff.

 

EDIT:

 

Entry level pvp is low/mid tacticals. At that level I don't expect anything aside from heal if you are a healer and hit those kolto stations. Similarly entry level pvp is low/mid tiers. At 65 we expect you to know something, this is a bad place to start learning.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ruhun

[ShredderStatus]

Haha I see a lot of shameless defense from those who can't hold their own in pvp and require a group....

 

Premades ruin pvp.

[Lhancelot]

The so-called Hardcore premade teams are actually kinda laughable to me. If they were that good, that "hardcore", they would not be in regs. You want people in full min/max gear all the time you go play ranks where that expectation is valid.

 

I think this is a case of wanting to have that cake and eat it too... people dont want to do ranked for various reasons yet expect ranked level play in regs, its not logical folks, it really isnt. Regs will always have a percentage of new or under geared players, always. Expecting otherwise is .. well it just isnt logical in any form.

 

Yeah that is pretty true I can't disagree with what you say here.

 

I think people are competitive though, and reason/judgment go out the window when emotions get involved.

 

Whether it's 4v4 ranked, or 8v8 regs, competitive spirit is involved and people vent their frustrations on what seems to be the most direct reason for why they failed to win.

 

I prefer placing the blame on the system more than the players.

[Floplag]

The community reacts this way because at level 65 people expect a certain level of competency.

I understand that they player may have never queued before, we've all been there, but their refusal to do the bare minimum irritates others.

Some have a shorter fuse than I do, so they quit as soon as they see players aren't up to snuff.

 

EDIT:

 

Entry level pvp is low/mid tacticals. At that level I don't expect anything aside from heal if you are a healer and hit those kolto stations. Similarly entry level pvp is low/mid tiers. At 65 we expect you to know something, this is a bad place to start learning.

 

 

Not sure the point you are making here comparing tacticals to entry level PvP.

Lower level PvP will of course but if they are not a PvPer most dont bother with that as it slows them leveling.

Bottom line your expectations do not apply to people whose focus is not PvP.

[Ruhun]

Not sure the point you are making here comparing tacticals to entry level PvP.

Lower level PvP will of course but if they are not a PvPer most dont bother with that as it slows them leveling.

Bottom line your expectations do not apply to people whose focus is not PvP.

 

My expectations are minimal understanding of the map and your class, as well as bolster.

 

You compared entry level pve and pvp, and entry level pve is tactical FPs.

 

Entry level pvp is the low and mid brackets of pvp. If at 65 you refuse to take advise into consideration then you deserve all the drops you get.

[Floplag]

My expectations are minimal understanding of the map and your class, as well as bolster.

 

You compared entry level pve and pvp, and entry level pve is tactical FPs.

 

Entry level pvp is the low and mid brackets of pvp. If at 65 you refuse to take advise into consideration then you deserve all the drops you get.

 

But why do you feel justified in expecting that from people whose focus is NOT PvP? And no you are not correct to assume that lowbies or mids is entry level.... entry level exists at all levels. What is a person denied access just cause they hit 65 and never PvP'd?

 

Do you think hardcore PvPers understand PvE mechanics? Most of them think PvE is worthless and wimpy based on their "hardcore" status, lol and wouldn't know how to gear up for those and certainly wouldn't be bothered to do so. I've seen people doing Ops in PvP gear for Christs sake.

 

Just because your focus is PvP you cant assume they care about it to the same degree cause we both know you wouldn't in PvE. At least most wouldnt, maybe you do IDK.

 

Edit: Besides ive seen people in full PvP gear that dont get it... 5 times last night i saw someone use a red mod on our own points in APG, and thats not a lie. Twice it was people in full PvP gear, one was full ranked with augs. Gear doesnt equal knowledge or ability

Edited April 20, 2016 by Floplag

[Ruhun]

But why do you feel justified in expecting that from people whose focus is NOT PvP? And no you are not correct to assume that lowbies or mids is entry level.... entry level exists at all levels. What is a person denied access just cause they hit 65 and never PvP'd?

 

Do you think hardcore PvPers understand PvE mechanics? Most of them think PvE is worthless and wimpy based on their "hardcore" status, lol and wouldn't know how to gear up for those and certainly wouldn't be bothered to do so. I've seen people doing Ops in PvP gear for Christs sake.

 

Just because your focus is PvP you cant assume they care about it to the same degree cause we both know you wouldn't in PvE. At least most wouldnt, maybe you do IDK.

 

PvPers certainly can and have cleared end game PvE content. (In PvE gear because they bothered to put in the effort)

Memorizing scripted encounters and not standing in stupid is not rocket science.

Min/Maxing stats also applies.

 

I wouldn't deny them access, but they should at least have 190s and follow instructions.

Like that guy that refused to use mods for some reason, or others that use red mods on our nodes after people repeatedly telling them not to.

 

EDIT:

 

*********** red mods!

I want to know what goes on in their heads. Are they drunk?

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ruhun

[Icykill_]

Fair enough but that has nothing to do with how people treat or perceive them. People leave WZs if a person is anything other than full pvp gear regardless of any other considerations most of the time.

 

Were going in circles off on unrelated topics now... it has nothing to do with how bolster works, or what gear a player should or should not be in, it has to do with how the community reacts to those players and the expectations they put on them at that level.

 

What do you expect a person to have to do entry level end game PvE? There is an equivalent answer for PvP that most completely ignore.

 

If you are a pvper you make sure you hit max level with enough comms to get you started at minimum, if you are not you make due with the best pve gear you have.

 

To put the same too high expectations on all players in PvE is simply not based on the reality of these games and you are using your definitions to define right and wrong on people that do not share your views. Even if you are right, it isnt applicable.

 

I'm not sure how to answer this with out setting you off, but I'll give it a go.

 

People don't leave because people don't have full PVP gear. Well most people don't, I'm sure some do, but hey, what can you do.

People also don't leave because there are PVE people on the team. They leave because a large percentage of those PVE people don't want to be there to start with.

I love having new blood in PVP, I think people who come to PVP for the right reasons are going to keep the PVP part of the game going. What I hate are all the people doing PVP for the wrong reasons, because they are coerced by Bioware.

I go out of my way to help newbie PVPers. Just the other day I spent 5 hours grouped with a couple just so I could teach and give them advice on tactics, their classes, the roles they should play on those classes. We weren't so much a premade as we were a classroom. I had heaps of fun, I think they did too. They're now on my friends list and I'm on theirs.

My biggest gripe are PVE people who don't want to be there, don't try, don't listen to advice, are rude, abusive and down right ignorant. I am not going to help these people. I give them a chance and try to help. If they are abusive I put them on ignore. If I pop a match with them I leave.

Those that know me also know I have a thread solely devoted to gearing for PVP and how to make bolster work for you. I spent 10s of hours testing and writing and helping people. I used to point people to the thread if they weren't geared right or needed help. Ive now given up. I spent so much of my time and effort trying to help people because I am passionate about PVP and wanted to build the population. But i got sick of being abused, ignored and frustrated at the total apathy these people have towards PVP.

So when someone who has tried over and over again to help people play solo and comes to the conclusion that premades are the only way to have fun anymore, you can bet they are from problems dumped on us from the Developers and made worse by the people who don't want to be there.

I actually feel sorry for any new pvpers or some of these PVE people trying out PVP becuase they are coerced to. I'm sure some of them would be good additions to the PVP population, but they are in a small minority. It's all the others that have basically painted all these PVE people as noobs and scrubs from their own representation of the PVE community.

So I'm sorry to those few who are having a rough time in PVP when you actually do give a sh*t about it.

But I am not sorry to those having a hard time and coming to the forums to whine about how PVP is hard, how this or that class is op or that premades make my life hard.

My frustration levels have surpassed me caring what those people think. As far as I'm concerned they can suck it up and learn to play PVP or they can go back to PVE. But if they intend to stay and not give a rats butt about PVP, then too bad, I'm going to farm the sh*t out of you till they learn to play.

And for the record, I dont need to be in a premade to do that. When I can hold off 5-6 people on a team by myself and solo kill two of them at the same time, there is something fundamentally wrong with the skill lvl in PVP. Because I am no where near the top teir of pvpers in this game and I can decimate these guys who don't want to be there.

[Floplag]

I'm not sure how to answer this with out setting you off, but I'll give it a go.

 

Not setting me off at all, just pointing out that there are 2 sides to the coin and most people dont do as you do. No offense to you it sounds like you make an effort where its merited, most cant be bothered.

[Savej]

...The issue is that people expect to be good, and win, without first being bad and losing. I am going to tell you a secret, if you are a "solo quer" who complains about losing to "premades", then you arent good. You just arent.

 

You dont want a "fair" game, because high skilled players working together and using every advantage they can get, including voice over programs, simul-queing, and "broken comps", is fair. You just arent using the same tools.

 

You keep using the word "fair": I don't think it means what you think it does. If you're trying to say a hypothetical system that presents itself as sporting but has addons and hacks that aren't being stopped that provide numerous advantages to the user is perfectly fine and "fair" because everyone can use the same addons and hacks, you've completely lost me.

[Floplag]

Any good player will tell you that they dont care if someone is undergeared or new. All they care about is if someone is willing to learn.

 

You are right, you have to pvp to get comms so you can gear. You also have to pvp to learn how to pvp, and everyone had a first time. That isnt the issue. The issue is that people expect to be good, and win, without first being bad and losing. I am going to tell you a secret, if you are a "solo quer" who complains about losing to "premades", then you arent good. You just arent.

 

You dont want a "fair" game, because high skilled players working together and using every advantage they can get, including voice over programs, simul-queing, and "broken comps", is fair. You just arent using the same tools.

 

P.S. I am not saying you shouldnt solo que. I am also not saying that there arent very highly skilled solo-quers. They just arent whining when they lose to a team.

 

May i mambo dogface to the banana patch?

My post made more sense than yours... just sayin

[OmegaDagger]

You keep using the word "fair": I don't think it means what you think it does. If you're trying to say a hypothetical system that presents itself as sporting but has addons and hacks that aren't being stopped that provide numerous advantages to the user is perfectly fine and "fair" because everyone can use the same addons and hacks, you've completely lost me.

 

Did anyone say anything about addons and hacks?

[OmegaDagger]

May i mambo dogface to the banana patch?

My post made more sense than yours... just sayin

 

Allow me to elaborate the (even though I know it wont matter.)

 

You stated earlier "Regs are the SM of PvP, its that simple." I HIGHLY HIGHLY (fundamentally) disagree with that statement. In fact, I think that is the problem with this entire discussion. You are asserting (if I understand you correctly) that there is a hierarchal structure to raiding, which is something I will agree with. FP < SM < HM. By this assumption, the ultimate goal of raiding at endgame is to get to the point where you can successfully do all hardmode operations. Again, I will agree.

 

Using this train of logic, and your above quote, you assert that WZ < Ranked. This is where I fundamentally disagree. IMO, they are two different game modes. I do not do WZ's so that I can gear for ranked, in the same manner as I would do SM to gear for HM. Ranked matches are deathmatch based, and have very different strategies and tactics associated with them. Warzones are objective based. Warzones are not an "easier" version of ranked, in the same manner that SM is an easier version of HM. They are different games.

 

Some people prefer Ranked some people prefer WZ's. This is why you get swaths of players who "tryhard" by running optimal comps, and group que. They arent avoiding ranked matches by stomping newbs. They prefer the tactical play of objective based pvp'ing.

Edited April 20, 2016 by OmegaDagger

[Telurian]

Again, to the above load of krap, I give you the "playground analogy"

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a playground here. Kids play all sort of games, but usually baseball. It's an open playground, so whenever kids play ball, kids make teams on the spot to have fun.

 

Right next to this playground, is a baseball ground used exclusively by the local little league team. Of course, unlike how kids flock to the playground everyday, the little league has fewer matches in total, so a lot of the times when there's no upcoming match or training, they get bored, so they decide to crash the playground.

 

The little leaguers come to the playground, and want to join the casual baseball everybody is enjoying. But there's a problem. They come in certain numbers, and they refuse to break up the team. They insist they'll only play with their teammates. So the kids try a few matches throughout the week,

 

As expectedly, the playground kids are utterly crushed. The little league kids are trained as a unit from the beginning. The kids at the playground were never up to that level in the first place, nor did they even wish to compete with such people in the first place.

 

So after a while, the playground kids protest. "Break up the teams guys. Break it up so you little league guys can be mixed in with other kids so there's fair share of good players."

 

Then the little league kids refuse. "No. We're all friends here. Besides, we all trained together, so we know this is more competitive. Why should it be us who breaks up teams? It's not our fault we're good. IT'S YOUR FAULT THAT YOU DIDN'T MAKE TEAMS LIKE US."

 

...the playground kids decide there's no talking to the selfish idiots, and just decide to never play ball with them ever again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

See, that's basically what's happening in unranked reg WZs. It's none of your concern, or business, why people like us don't make teams. We each have different reasons. Besides, whether we make teams or not is not even the point in the first place, because if the general rule of "fair teaming" was applied in the first place, we wouldn't even be meeting premades in the first place.

 

The difference between the "playground" above, and SWTOR, is that unlike in real life, we aren't given any choice.

 

In our version of the 'playground' we have here, the SYSTEM FORCES US to be matched up with premades whether we like it or not. Nobody wants that in the first place. It wasn't "voluntary". We just have no other alternative but to walk into that krap. Either that, or not play PvP at all. If using the above analogy, it's like the kids' teacher was passing by the playground, saw the kids arguing, and then just says, "Now now, be nice boys. Don't fight. Just go to the playground and you all play a game together." But teacher! That's why the kids were fighting in the first place.

 

...

 

Rule number one of any competitive game that has teams -- even out the teams. Randomness with solo queuers teaming guarantees this fairness. "Premades" start off in the first place by breaking this rule.

 

So, like have been said so many times, us solo-queuers don't really give a shi* why you make premades -- so long as you use all that 'competitive nature' or 'communication' or 'more organization' to play against others who are willing to fight against such odds.

 

I can bet both my nuts most solo queuers across the servers, would not hesitate to press the "f***k 'em. I don't wanna play against premades. I just wanna play against same soloers" button every time, if such an option existed in the first place. (And for some sheer stroke of luck, people had the system doing that for them during the last couple of weeks... and we thoroughlu enjoed it)

 

 

So don't force solo queuers to fight against premades, because we really don't want to. You like premades and competition and higher level of PvP? Fine by us. Support the separation. Premades get what they want, soloers get what they want. Think about it -- if premade players justify themselves on grounds of wanting better PvP experience, playing with friends.. and all that, then there's no friggin' reason ever, that they should refuse to splitting the queues.

 

Premades are fine, so long as they face people who are same premades. Us soloers are not matched against premades because we like it or want it -- its only because the game never gave us a choice but to either risk that unfairness, or not play PvP at all.

 

People have a choice to make premades? Fine by me.

 

THEN GIVE OTHERS THE CHOICE TO NOT PLAY AGAINST THOSE PREMADES, and we're all good.

 

Very good post. I 100% agree.

[Floplag]

Allow me to elaborate the (even though I know it wont matter.)

 

You stated earlier "Regs are the SM of PvP, its that simple." I HIGHLY HIGHLY (fundamentally) disagree with that statement. In fact, I think that is the problem with this entire discussion. You are asserting (if I understand you correctly) that there is a hierarchal structure to raiding, which is something I will agree with. FP < SM < HM. By this assumption, the ultimate goal of raiding at endgame is to get to the point where you can successfully do all hardmode operations. Again, I will agree.

 

Using this train of logic, and your above quote, you assert that WZ < Ranked. This is where I fundamentally disagree. IMO, they are two different game modes. I do not do WZ's so that I can gear for ranked, in the same manner as I would do SM to gear for HM. Ranked matches are deathmatch based, and have very different strategies and tactics associated with them. Warzones are objective based. Warzones are not an "easier" version of ranked, in the same manner that SM is an easier version of HM. They are different games.

 

Some people prefer Ranked some people prefer WZ's. This is why you get swaths of players who "tryhard" by running optimal comps, and group que. They arent avoiding ranked matches by stomping newbs. They prefer the tactical play of objective based pvp'ing.

 

You are splitting hairs to justify the position. Its a good logical argument but it assumes things that dont exist.

 

Ill grant you that in those cases where the maps are not available in ranked there is a difference in the overall game play style, that is true, but for that logic to be applicable we would need to have 3 different queues, one for ranked, one for reg arenas, and one for 8 man WZs. We dont, we have only the 2 options; regs or ranked.

 

This leaves regs in the poistion of being the defacto entry level PvP and the general flow of PvP progression is in fact Regs > Ranked in the current system.

 

Now that having been said i would support the idea for separation of those save for the fact that we dont have the players for it anymore. I would like nothing better than to do the 8 mans all night and never see an arena. So while i agree with your logic in terms of what they are, the fact that they are in the same queue means they are effectively the same game mode since we cannot queue selectively to play WZ versus Deathmatch.

[Ruhun]

You are splitting hairs to justify the position. Its a good logical argument but it assumes things that dont exist.

 

Ill grant you that in those cases where the maps are not available in ranked there is a difference in the overall game play style, that is true, but for that logic to be applicable we would need to have 3 different queues, one for ranked, one for reg arenas, and one for 8 man WZs. We dont, we have only the 2 options; regs or ranked.

 

This leaves regs in the poistion of being the defacto entry level PvP and the general flow of PvP progression is in fact Regs > Ranked in the current system.

 

Now that having been said i would support the idea for separation of those save for the fact that we dont have the players for it anymore. I would like nothing better than to do the 8 mans all night and never see an arena. So while i agree with your logic in terms of what they are, the fact that they are in the same queue means they are effectively the same game mode since we cannot queue selectively to play WZ versus Deathmatch.

 

Entry level pvp are the low and mid brackets. Level 65 pvp is in no way entry level, since people are geared to the teeth and will obliterate anyone undergeared and without experience.

In lows and mid everyone is more or less on an equal playing field, and new people can try and fail to their hearts content.

 

If you never played before you can try out 65 regs, but don't go in expecting entry level.

[-Bob-]

premades are ruining PVP