DeltaBos Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 But both are threats to the galaxy and its people. The Sith Lords aren't going to be justified because they were better than some others. Sith does not equal dark side, they are a group of dark siders with their unique philosophy. I. Get. That. I am not saying that Sith lords ruling the galaxy isn't technically bad, or a threat, but Sith don't want to just end everything. Wanting power =/= wanting to destroy EVERYTHING. Threats that involve the continuation of the galaxy itself, like say, Vitiate wanting to absorb all life, requires Jedi and Sith to get past their petty squabbles in order to achieve a HARMONY capable of defeating these threats. I'm not saying that the Sith are bad, I'm saying that chaos, death and destruction on a massive scale, is. It takes Harmony to defeat Chaos, and that's what I'm trying to get across here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I. Get. That. I am not saying that Sith lords ruling the galaxy isn't technically bad, or a threat, but Sith don't want to just end everything. Wanting power =/= wanting to destroy EVERYTHING. Threats that involve the continuation of the galaxy itself, like say, Vitiate wanting to absorb all life, requires Jedi and Sith to get past their petty squabbles in order to achieve a HARMONY capable of defeating these threats. I'm not saying that the Sith are bad, I'm saying that chaos, death and destruction on a massive scale, is. It takes Harmony to defeat Chaos, and that's what I'm trying to get across here. They are still threatening the whole galaxy. It's better to be ruled under a tyrant than being eaten, but it's still very bad. It doesn't matter what crazy goal he got, he was nearly beaten by a light side Jedi, until some "gray Jedi" fool tried to bring him back on Yavin. And all these elements of Abeloth are part of the Dark Side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Okay after going through the last several posts, I feel like the most people don't really get how the force works. First off, there IS NO Light and Dark side of the force. Premises flawed, no need to read the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Uh, what? Jedi Outcast, and I'm pretty sure the other games with Katarn as main protagonist, classify as FPS. You got a light side and a dark side ending in some of the games, but the main story remains pretty much the same. I never said Katarn was the most OP lightsaber jockey in existence, and that grey-ish Jedi kick the a*ses of everyone and everything. I just gave an example, one of the very few, about how one can use both sides of the Force without enslaving himself to them, so to speak. Mass Effect & Skyrim are RPGs too. I don't care about Katarn or Revan, because they can't be not-grey for gameplay reasons. It's a basic rule in RPG, you never FORCE a choice on your player, so even while behaving like a complete raging sociopath all the way, he can still decide to save a bunch of kittens. So they made up reasons to justify that. About Arcan, Vaylinn & Valky, I don't have anything to add, as they are indeed essentially Sith lords. The only reason why Valky is loved is because of his completely automated empire. No need to enforce anything when the magical robots can give everything to everybody without any costs. But he never actually went out of his way, to do something good. Probably even the contrary, since he obviously is, in fact, the legendary demonic killer serpent feared by everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Premises flawed, no need to read the rest. Do some homework on the Unifying Force before throwing out a line of thinking just because you don't agree with it. The force is beyond light and dark, moral concepts that followers of these "sides" use to justify their actions. The force isn't good, and it's not evil, it's a cosmic force and entity that strives for balance in the universe. Light and Dark "sides" are concepts that the people who wield the force use. People who subscribe to the Dark Side focus on emotions such as passion, anger, etc., we all know the drill, but the light side focuses on compassion, tranquility, etc. The force is beyond emotions and moral concepts. In a nutshell, the Force could care less about the justifications its wielders use for their actions, but the Force itself is constantly pushing for a balance in the universe. And if you don't want to take my word for it, just google the unifying force, it breaks down the nature of the Force and the concepts that most people attribute to it very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomName_Ru Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Do some homework on the Unifying Force before throwing out a line of thinking just because you don't agree with it. The force is beyond light and dark, moral concepts that followers of these "sides" use to justify their actions. The force isn't good, and it's not evil, it's a cosmic force and entity that strives for balance in the universe. Light and Dark "sides" are concepts that the people who wield the force use. People who subscribe to the Dark Side focus on emotions such as passion, anger, etc., we all know the drill, but the light side focuses on compassion, tranquility, etc. The force is beyond emotions and moral concepts. In a nutshell, the Force could care less about the justifications its wielders use for their actions, but the Force itself is constantly pushing for a balance in the universe. And if you don't want to take my word for it, just google the unifying force, it breaks down the nature of the Force and the concepts that most people attribute to it very well. It's a concept not a fact. It is an interesting theory, but it do not make it better then Living Force in any way. Do not be suprised that others do not listen to you if you start your argument with "I know how Force works more then then you are". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Do some homework on the Unifying Force No such thing. A few (retconned) characters' theories don't make canonical truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 It's a concept not a fact. It is an interesting theory, but it do not make it better then Living Force in any way. Do not be suprised that others do not listen to you if you start your argument with "I know how Force works more then then you are". That's a very good point, it is more of a concept. It's a different philosophy that I personally subscribe to. All I am trying to do is persuade others to look at the Force from another point of view. If someone were to investigate the philosophy of the Unifying force and still decide they prefer the concept of Sides," that's fine. Ignorance because of refusal to consider another philosophy exclusively because of dogmatic principles, refusing to broaden one's horizon, is my only real issue here. No such thing. A few (retconned) characters' theories don't make canonical truth. I can say there's no such thing as Light and Dark sides, you can say there's no such thing as unifying force, and we can just go back and forth saying "I'm right you're wrong." as much as we want. As I said up above, all I'm trying to accomplish is to get people to think outside the box and if, after doing so you're still convinced in the Sides concept, that's fine. That's how I used to think, then when I considered the theory of the unifying Force, I was convinced enough to choose that as the most logical theory. Again, disregarding a theory for no other reason than "my theory just can't be wrong" is just plain ignorance, but if after considering all sides your convinced in whatever theory of the Force you subscribe to, than I won't try to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I can say there's no such thing as Light and Dark sides, you can say there's no such thing as unifying force, and we can just go back and forth saying "I'm right you're wrong." as much as we want. As I said up above, all I'm trying to accomplish is to get people to think outside the box You are not trying to get people to think outside the box, you are trying to get people to make up what they believe. I'm right, and you're wrong, because your affirmations are based on non canonical informations, and even said informations were always proved wrong, in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 You are not trying to get people to think outside the box, you are trying to get people to make up what they believe. I'm right, and you're wrong, because your affirmations are based on non canonical informations, and even said informations were always proved wrong, in the end. Hey, if you're convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that your theory is the most logical one to you, then you do you. Personally my theory makes the most sense to me. I've looked at the Force from a lot of different angles, as I'm sure you have, and that's simply led us to different conclusions. The unifying Force theory has as much going for it as the concept of Light and Dark sides. If you're convinced enough that your theory is the correct one, alright. I'm convinced enough that mine is the most logical but I won't force you to have my same opinion. That's the purpose of a discussion like this one, to consider all possibilities and form our own conclusions based on logic and reason. There's nothing wrong with coming to different conclusions, so long as those conclusions are based on logic and reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Hey, if you're convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that your theory is the most logical one to you, then you do you. The most logical theory to me, is that there Is no light side, and the Dark Side is a cancer, and that balance is reached by the complete destruction of the Dark Side. That is the most logical and obvious truth... BUT it's wrong, just like your theory. Because what I find logical and what you find logical is irrelevant. What is relevant is Disney's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfumblez Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) This thread seems to have really devolved since the premise of "Marr and Satele; Imposters?" To some yadda on the Force. I get that it's interesting, but wouldn't be better to stay on topic? On topic, I certainly felt weirded out by them. Edited April 13, 2016 by drfumblez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 This thread seems to have really devolved since the premise of "Marr and Satele; Imposters?" To some yadda on the Force. I get that it's interesting, but wouldn't be better to stay on topic? Yes sorry, I won't argue about it any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 The most logical theory to me, is that there Is no light side, and the Dark Side is a cancer, and that balance is reached by the complete destruction of the Dark Side. That is the most logical and obvious truth... BUT it's wrong, just like your theory. Because what I find logical and what you find logical is irrelevant. What is relevant is Disney's opinion. Okay so now I'm confused. Disney's opinion shouldn't matter to anyone but Disney. Whatever makes sense to you is what you should believe. Don't let Disney tell you what you should think just because... what, they said that's what you should think? If you said that "that is the most logical and obvious truth," then that's all that should matter. Everyone should sort of come to their own conclusion on the nature of the Force, rather than have one individual say "well this is just correct because we say it is." If you're convinced that your opinion is the correct one, then that's all that should matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfumblez Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yes sorry, I won't argue about it any more. I promise I meant no attack. I just saw the premise, and really wanted to keep the thread focused. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senrie Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Opinions don't matter if there's facts(canon) that contradict your opinion. Not that the new canon(Disney) is relevant to TOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Opinions don't matter if there's facts(canon) that contradict your opinion. Not that the new canon(Disney) is relevant to TOR. I think that the biggest issue is confusing fact for leading theories. I mean, has a spokesperson for Disney flat out walked in front of an audience and said "The Light and Dark sides of the force is fact." and then walked away? In the movies the theories that are discussed is Light, Dark, and living (a whole other beast I'm not getting into). I've never head an "official" saying that anything is fact or anything saying that what is brought up in the movies is anything other than popular theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senrie Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) I'm also unaware of anything definitive on the Force in the new canon, but we had several Word of God statements from Lucas establishing the two sides. Plus the Mortis arc in TCW(which continues to be canon in the new canon). Edited April 13, 2016 by Senrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I'm also unaware of anything definitive on the Force in the new canon, but we had several Word of God statements from Lucas establishing the two sides. Plus the Mortis arc in TCW. Wait, didn't the Mortis arc sort of support the unifying theory? I mean, there's sort of a yin/yang thing going on in "Overlords." Even the Son, who according to the encyclopedia, is the embodiment of the Dark Side, says "Dark and Light, you make it all sound so simple" The Father, kept the two in balance because if one became too powerful or overtook the other, chaos could only ensue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senrie Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Honestly, I hate the Mortis arc so have preferred not to think all too deeply about it, but doesn't the mere existence of the two imply there's sides? How can you be the embodiment or personification of something that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that there was light in the Son, and dark in the Daughter, and they were just both imbalanced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Honestly, I hate the Mortis arc so have preferred not to think all too deeply about it, but doesn't the mere existence of the two imply there's sides? How can you be the embodiment or personification of something that doesn't exist? Or are you suggesting that there was light in the Son, and dark in the Daughter, and they were just both imbalanced? I believe they embodied the sides in a way. The son used the force for selfish reasons, relied on anger, hate, etc., The daughter was selfless and generally embodied the opposite of the Son. The Father's job was to keep the two in balance and create a harmony between the two. Think of it this way, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The Son and Daughter sort of embodied the two extreme uses of the force, while the Father brought balance and harmony between the two, which is the overarching premise to the unifying force theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Satele in this chapter is referred to by the code as ''Satele Shan Impersonator Most intriguing. And Darth Marr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senrie Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I believe they embodied the sides in a way. The son used the force for selfish reasons, relied on anger, hate, etc., The daughter was selfless and generally embodied the opposite of the Son. The Father's job was to keep the two in balance and create a harmony between the two. Think of it this way, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The Son and Daughter sort of embodied the two extreme uses of the force, while the Father brought balance and harmony between the two, which is the overarching premise to the unifying force theory. That really doesn't sound anything like the Unifying Force as I understand it. You believe they embodied the sides in a way, but what sides? The overarching premise is that there are no sides, so what exactly is being balanced or harmonized? What "two"? In the Unifying Force view, the Force just is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBos Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 That really doesn't sound anything like the Unifying Force as I understand it. You believe they embodied the sides in a way, but what sides? The overarching premise is that there are no sides, so what exactly is being balanced or harmonized? What "two"? In the Unifying Force view, the Force just is. I probably should have been more clear. The Son embodies traits generally found by people who claim to align with the Dark Side. Selfishness, passion, etc. The daughter is the equal and opposite force to the Son, selflessness, compassion and serenity. The way I personally view it, people in the Star Wars universe use the "Sides" to justify their actions for doing things. "I did these selfish things because the dark side pulled me to it," and Jedi justify their actions because of their alignment plenty of times as well. I personally believe that these people are blaming the force for their own human tendencies. The Force doesn't really have any morals, it's beyond that, the Force simply aims to create a balance and harmony in the galaxy. So if there are people who use the force for selfish purposes, then there needs to be an equal amount of people who use the force for selfless purposes. Again, this is more my personal theory about how the Unifying Force applies to everyone and how most people view the Force and use it to justify their actions. That being said, it's entirely possible that none of these theories are totally accurate and that the true nature of the Force is somewhere in between. Maybe there are "Sides" so to speak but the Force seeks to balance everything out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthThuzad Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 Most intriguing. And Darth Marr? I believe so for Marr as well. Think someone mentioned it earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts