azudelphi Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 It's the up-front "cost," not the per-play-hour. At any rate, we're not paying per play hour; we're paying per subscription month. I guess it's both. BioWare spends more cash to make one chapter, which gives 1 hour of playtime... we spend approx $15 for 1 hour of 1 playthrough content. Nobody wins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanArgent Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 I'm getting plenty of value out of my $15 a month, without raiding. Admittedly, that's at least partially because I haven't burned through and out on the existing non-Ops content. The Ops I've done have been fun, sure, but not so much so that the rest of the game is dead to me. I've got 11 "active" characters, one who has completed KotFE, another 2-3 at various stages in it, a couple somewhere between Ilum and SoR, a DvL character just about to start SoR proper, and another sitting outside the initial mailbox waiting for me to finish the first one so I can get the second to 65. (Both DvL characters are "repeat" classes; I wanted to do the stories in a different fashion than my first playthrough). I've got around 3 years sub, I think (I'd have to check my account page to be sure). How many more are there like me, vs how many more people who are "Raid or nothing?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 How many more are there like me, vs how many more people who are "Raid or nothing?"There's only one person I can think of who's almost exactly like you are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 How many more are there like me, vs how many more people who are "Raid or nothing?" At this point? There are probably growing numbers in the "repeatable group content or bust" camp. There seem to be more people in the "subscribe one month at the end of KotET" camp. I am not saying you are alone... but I just don't see a rosy future for TOR on its current repeatable-free path. The cartel market made up for the loss of subscribers, but attrition will eventually make that non-viable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 10% of all accounts were doing hard modes? That means approximately 10% of all accounts were subscribing to with raids in mind. How do you rationally discount that as a group they should keep? What percent of subscribing accounts were part of that player demographic? I bet 8% only would only head north with that. Long story short, the only, and I mean only reason I see worthwhile to sub moving forward in terms of value is if more repeatable group content is added. Operations top the list. 1 chapter per month and 1 chapter at the end is not there in terms of value. It's not enough, so Bioware stopped to make them, and they even said KOTFE had raised their sub number a lot. Repeatable content, yes, raid content, not likely. I already explained my reason on one of the previous posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 It's not enough, so Bioware stopped to make them, and they even said KOTFE had raised their sub number a lot. Repeatable content, yes, raid content, not likely. I already explained my reason on one of the previous posts. KotFE raised their sub numbers on a gamble that the monthly rewards and a bonus chapter that required a "continuous" sub for the duration of the expansion. My worry, that at least the optics I am seeing leans me towards, is a game that has less and less reason for being a long term subscriber. As the player base dwindles I fear that will have a serious impact on the game's true source of income, the cartel market. You spend on the cartel market for a game you plan to be with for a long time... not one that seems to be approaching the sunset. They have a value problem. Raids are the easy fix. They are a known quantity when it comes to repeatable content. They foster a community. They create a new progression beyond levels. I welcome anything Bioware can throw our way at the start of KotET, because right now I don't see myself staying subbed at the end of my current one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 KotFE raised their sub numbers on a gamble that the monthly rewards and a bonus chapter that required a "continuous" sub for the duration of the expansion. My worry, that at least the optics I am seeing leans me towards, is a game that has less and less reason for being a long term subscriber. As the player base dwindles I fear that will have a serious impact on the game's true source of income, the cartel market. You spend on the cartel market for a game you plan to be with for a long time... not one that seems to be approaching the sunset. They have a value problem. Raids are the easy fix. They are a known quantity when it comes to repeatable content. They foster a community. They create a new progression beyond levels. I welcome anything Bioware can throw our way at the start of KotET, because right now I don't see myself staying subbed at the end of my current one. I don't like KOTFE, don't get me wrong, but I don't think raid is the way either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 I don't like KOTFE, don't get me wrong, but I don't think raid is the way either. Just raids would be bad, but I think they should be part of the solution. The all-in approach is bad... story or raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsetso Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Just raids would be bad, but I think they should be part of the solution. The all-in approach is bad... story or raids. RotHC was best - there was everything for everyone - strongholds, gsf, raids, story, pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaaXx Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 RotHC was best - there was everything for everyone - strongholds, gsf, raids, story, pvp. RotHC stands as my favorite cycle so far. We had SO much content introduced and to play. KotFE was just a disappointment to me on all levels... they promised us story and it fell short of what it should have been. RotHC despite not being the best story they've had was pretty good. The storyline didn't put you in a position of power only to take orders from your subordinates and for your choices to be second guessed by the rest of the NPC's. And not only did it give us story, it gave us GROUP CONTENT that can be played more than once without wanting to tear your eyes out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanArgent Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 There's only one person I can think of who's almost exactly like you are... I hope there isn't another one of me. He'd probably want his stuff back! Anyway, back on topic: One of the reasons I think that the redirection of effort from raids and other veteran-targeted content was at least partially necessary is that SWTOR is not all that accessible to someone completely unfamiliar with the "tropes" of classic MMOs; and depended (depends a little still) too much on "community osmosis and support." That needs to change - and TEC is a move in that direction, where the hints about how to deal with the mechanics are ... very broad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasmaJohn Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 How many more are there like me, vs how many more people who are "Raid or nothing?" I'm not really raid or bust but I've done everything else I care to. I'm back to play through the last two years worth of story and I'm almost done with the story. I only reactivated my sub about a week ago. Heck I'm almost done with the DvL Eternal level. To be fair, I've spent a couple weeks prior to the sub getting both my Sage and Jugg to 55. I do not regret the $15 I've spent, but it's unlikely they'll get much more from me in the near term particularly since there's a new raid tier to work through on Wildstar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenCordial Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) Only 8% of the people was doing ToS HM during SoR. THIS is why they stopped to make new raid content. Just a couple of points I feel the need to make here. If BioWare is using this as an excuse to not pursue further raid content then its one of their own making. ToS/Rav HM was a significant step up in difficulty from prior tiers. That's why it was popularly called hardmare. It was probably way over tuned for your average hard mode guild as if trying to appeal to both the NiM and HM raiding crowd. Heck even some casual SM focused guilds were having problems with the SM version. While I can appreciate the sentiment of extra challenge I'm not sure it did those ops any popularity favors for such a large difficulty increase. They needed to make some adjustments sooner than they did. Secondly certain fights like HM Revan overwhelming favored exactly 1 raid make up, Hunters or Troopers, due to the mechanics. That is absolutely terrible in design, for HM guilds that may not want to run FotM classes but still wanted to clear HM. To this day I'm not sure if any guild downed Revan before the first nerf that didn't include an overwhelming make up of Troopers/Hunters or players of other classes that legacied over the main hand. If there was its a very small list. Third bugs, bugs, bugs. Underlurker was a constant problem in the first few weeks and Torque's repair droids getting stuck on players was another terrible nightmare for raid groups trying to do progression. Finally the Rav exploit going on for weeks didn't help. Frankly the fact that 8% of players were going in and bashing their heads against that isn't a bad stat. Add in story mode and I'm sure a significant chunk of players were doing the new content. Edited September 7, 2016 by ArenCordial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenCordial Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) RotHC stands as my favorite cycle so far. We had SO much content introduced and to play. KotFE was just a disappointment to me on all levels... they promised us story and it fell short of what it should have been. RotHC despite not being the best story they've had was pretty good. The storyline didn't put you in a position of power only to take orders from your subordinates and for your choices to be second guessed by the rest of the NPC's. And not only did it give us story, it gave us GROUP CONTENT that can be played more than once without wanting to tear your eyes out... This. RotHC era was the high point of post launch content. The story was much better, even if KotFE has the edge in cinematics. Faction story > the single Zakuul story. The raids were great. I pvped the most in the 2.x era. The only I would have changed was Oricon requiring the raids to complete the story. SoR approach with Revan was better in that regard. Edited September 8, 2016 by ArenCordial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaaXx Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 This. RotHC era was the high point of post launch content. The story was much better, even if KotFE has the edge in cinematics. Faction story > the single Zakuul story. The raids were great. I pvped the most in the 2.x era. The only I would have changed was Oricon requiring the raids to complete the story. SoR approach with Revan was better in that regard. Zakuul's story was incredibly underwhelming. Very little character development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Just a couple of points I feel the need to make here. If BioWare is using this as an excuse to not pursue further raid content then its one of their own making. ToS/Rav HM was a significant step up in difficulty from prior tiers. That's why it was popularly called hardmare. It was probably way over tuned for your average hard mode guild as if trying to appeal to both the NiM and HM raiding crowd. Heck even some casual SM focused guilds were having problems with the SM version. While I can appreciate the sentiment of extra challenge I'm not sure it did those ops any popularity favors for such a large difficulty increase. They needed to make some adjustments sooner than they did. Secondly certain fights like HM Revan overwhelming favored exactly 1 raid make up, Hunters or Troopers, due to the mechanics. That is absolutely terrible in design, for HM guilds that may not want to run FotM classes but still wanted to clear HM. To this day I'm not sure if any guild downed Revan before the first nerf that didn't include an overwhelming make up of Troopers/Hunters or players of other classes that legacied over the main hand. If there was its a very small list. Third bugs, bugs, bugs. Underlurker was a constant problem in the first few weeks and Torque's repair droids getting stuck on players was another terrible nightmare for raid groups trying to do progression. Finally the Rav exploit going on for weeks didn't help. Frankly the fact that 8% of players were going in and bashing their heads against that isn't a bad stat. Add in story mode and I'm sure a significant chunk of players were doing the new content. SO true. I put this in a similar boat to WOW. Sure less than 10% was hitting the harder content but as far as story mode and LFR groups went it was as high as 65% hitting that content. It's not a raid or die only as there are multiple pieces an MMO needs but OPS/raiding is a piece of the puzzle that cannot be left out because when you do the picture is incomplete. What do you do with puzzles missing pieces? You eventually quit playing with them and trash it. Kinda like SWTOR now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knockerz Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 KotFE raised their sub numbers on a gamble that the monthly rewards and a bonus chapter that required a "continuous" sub for the duration of the expansion. My worry, that at least the optics I am seeing leans me towards, is a game that has less and less reason for being a long term subscriber. As the player base dwindles I fear that will have a serious impact on the game's true source of income, the cartel market. You spend on the cartel market for a game you plan to be with for a long time... not one that seems to be approaching the sunset. They have a value problem. Raids are the easy fix. They are a known quantity when it comes to repeatable content. They foster a community. They create a new progression beyond levels. I welcome anything Bioware can throw our way at the start of KotET, because right now I don't see myself staying subbed at the end of my current one. All BW has to do is change the F2P model. It's their one ace in their hand. A less restrictive F2P will probably cause an influx of new and older players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinai Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Dunno, ask a Cubs fan about the 2003 playoff against the Redsox, pretty sure they're still ticked about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 All BW has to do is change the F2P model. It's their one ace in their hand. A less restrictive F2P will probably cause an influx of new and older players. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing though? The opinions in the forum seem to be pretty mixed about the contribution F2P players make to the game, particularly end game group content. Older players, if they have any interest in the game are probably playing Preferred anyway, with the occasional resub if they are successfully lured by marketing emails and promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Dunno, ask a Cubs fan about the 2003 playoff against the Redsox, pretty sure they're still ticked about that. Yep... Grudges can be long and difficult to ever let go of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 All BW has to do is change the F2P model. It's their one ace in their hand. A less restrictive F2P will probably cause an influx of new and older players. More gamers not paying? Thats in no way will get more OPS in the game. Sorry but no, a less restrictive F2P isn't going to help in this matter. (maybe you were being sarcastic and I couldn't tell) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsetso Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Dunno, ask a Cubs fan about the 2003 playoff against the Redsox, pretty sure they're still ticked about that. Why would someone put socks on a cub no matter the color? That's animal torture, inform PETA immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtas Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 (edited) All BW has to do is change the F2P model. It's their one ace in their hand. A less restrictive F2P will probably cause an influx of new and older players. Are you lumping ftp and preferred in the same group? FTP are those who have not ever paid a cent for the game (no subscription no cartel packs) I don't see how making it less restrictive/enticing to have to pay to play the full game would be of help. If anything, it may be the push for a lot of subs to drop their status down to preferred which wouldn't earn more income for the game. Edited September 20, 2016 by Jamtas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deewe Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Are you lumping ftp and preferred in the same group? FTP are those who have not ever paid a cent for the game (no subscription no cartel packs) I don't see how making it less restrictive/enticing to have to pay to play the full game would be of help. If anything, it may be the push for a lot of subs to drop their status down to preferred which wouldn't earn more income for the game. ^ This. The main reason I'm sub (apart supporting the game development) is because of the credit restrictions. Rest been unlocked since long time ago. Sadly no need to sub as OP aren't worth it and a couple of PvP & FP from time to time are good enough. So apart the credit cap, with a couple of unlocks you can enjoy the game for way cheaper than subs, especially in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabigool Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) Dunno, ask a Cubs fan about the 2003 playoff against the Redsox, pretty sure they're still ticked about that. By this, I assume you mean how something special was happening until a couple people got involved - and before long, everyone lost? Edited September 23, 2016 by gabigool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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