Point of a Tank?

[TheGoju]

I love Juggernaut.. even the name.. Juggernaut.. reminds you of the man standing admit the carnage and while he is beaten broken bruised and bleeding, he stands ... I know the job of a tank in a WZ, i guard the healer, stand on/by them, CC for them so they don't get beat to hell, Before this starts i am lvl 65, with 208 PvP gear, fully augmented with 208 augs. and full expertise crystals.

 

But whats the point, when any assassin or Shadow running the new "hello I'm god" hybrid gear can 3 shot you. By running in a circle and spamming that stupid stab. Then vanish easily and repeat the process on the next poor shmuck who entered the wrong WZ at the wrong time.

The new "glitch" that lets Sorc / Sage be invisible even when your beating the ever loving hell outta em (and I've seen it too often for it to be a random "bug")

 

I like to PvP, i don't mind losing, when our team is crap, i don't mind losing when you have no communication, or yoru team makes mistakes..

 

I DO mind losing when its not the fault of the team, but the cheese-tastic crap of the other side. teams of 3-4 Shadow Hybrids running in circles stabbing you with what ever that thing is that takes like 1/4 of your hp bar. invisible Sage's running around the Wz that you can see the name over there head, but can only target them with Tab or when they are hit by tech they light up like they have a shield. .

 

Example - Names removed -

http://imgur.com/u2VqnQl

 

This was the 4th time I've seen a Sage with this "bug" they are invisible, you cant see em , when you hit em they light up a bit, as you can see in the picture, (thanks to my team-mate) otherwise you see a name, and that is it ,

 

The mage thing, could be a bug, could be glitch,.. its livable, harder to work around sometimes, when you take the nameplates off, but its doable.. the Sin doing 1/3 a Juggernauts HP by running in circles and spamming a single ability.. is dumb. 3-4 hits and the Tank dies.. WTH are the other people supposed to do? bend over? its about all it seems you can do, oh look a team of sin's , is there a surrender button? and i know its most likely the same team of people, and i know there is really nothing anyone can do about it. Save try not to get put against em, but I am tried of people who exploit a bug, some part of a game system then think they are so skilled cuz they abuse it. its sad

[LeglessChair]

i love juggernaut.. Even the name.. Juggernaut.. Reminds you of the man standing admit the carnage and while he is beaten broken bruised and bleeding, he stands ... I know the job of a tank in a wz, i guard the healer, stand on/by them, cc for them so they don't get beat to hell, before this starts i am lvl 65, with 208 pvp gear, fully augmented with 208 augs. And full expertise crystals.

 

But whats the point, when any assassin or shadow running the new "hello i'm god" hybrid gear can 3 shot you. By running in a circle and spamming that stupid stab. Then vanish easily and repeat the process on the next poor shmuck who entered the wrong wz at the wrong time.

The new "glitch" that lets sorc / sage be invisible even when your beating the ever loving hell outta em (and i've seen it too often for it to be a random "bug")

 

i like to pvp, i don't mind losing, when our team is crap, i don't mind losing when you have no communication, or yoru team makes mistakes..

 

I do mind losing when its not the fault of the team, but the cheese-tastic crap of the other side. Teams of 3-4 shadow hybrids running in circles stabbing you with what ever that thing is that takes like 1/4 of your hp bar. Invisible sage's running around the wz that you can see the name over there head, but can only target them with tab or when they are hit by tech they light up like they have a shield. .

 

Example - names removed -

http://imgur.com/u2vqnql

 

this was the 4th time i've seen a sage with this "bug" they are invisible, you cant see em , when you hit em they light up a bit, as you can see in the picture, (thanks to my team-mate) otherwise you see a name, and that is it ,

 

the mage thing, could be a bug, could be glitch,.. Its livable, harder to work around sometimes, when you take the nameplates off, but its doable.. The sin doing 1/3 a juggernauts hp by running in circles and spamming a single ability.. Is dumb. 3-4 hits and the tank dies.. Wth are the other people supposed to do? Bend over? Its about all it seems you can do, oh look a team of sin's , is there a surrender button? And i know its most likely the same team of people, and i know there is really nothing anyone can do about it. Save try not to get put against em, but i am tried of people who exploit a bug, some part of a game system then think they are so skilled cuz they abuse it. Its sad

 

 

10/10

Edited March 26, 2016 by LeglessChair

[SirUrza]

But whats the point, when any assassin or Shadow running the new "hello I'm god" hybrid gear can 3 shot you. By running in a circle and spamming that stupid stab. Then vanish easily and repeat the process on the next poor shmuck who entered the wrong WZ at the wrong time.

 

I DO mind losing when its not the fault of the team, but the cheese-tastic crap of the other side. teams of 3-4 Shadow Hybrids running in circles stabbing you with what ever that thing is that takes like 1/4 of your hp bar. invisible Sage's running around the Wz that you can see the name over there head, but can only target them with Tab or when they are hit by tech they light up like they have a shield.

 

I've been out for about 2 months with pneumonia, so I have to ask.. what is he talking about? What hybrid? It sounds truly hilarious if a Jugg with all it's AoE control can't deal with them.

[Meteoreete]

Come tofn bro we can play together. 26 april you know they todl eric and alx shoudl create warzone an new season. i want it . you want 7 season? Edited March 26, 2016 by Meteoreete

[Meteoreete]

I am understand only 1 nerf operative XD om i want meet you in real life and play with you now Edited March 26, 2016 by Meteoreete

[NikSunrider]

I've been out for about 2 months with pneumonia, so I have to ask.. what is he talking about? What hybrid? It sounds truly hilarious if a Jugg with all it's AoE control can't deal with them.

 

TL;DR DPS have more crit now, which makes realistic shield/absorb numbers no longer viable for tanks, also Shield/absorb share the same slot on enhancements, and mods are defence only, severly gimping the effectiveness of properly geared tanks.

 

Now, you either have tanks running high-endirance DPS gear, or normal DPS gear, even. just with tank setbonus.

 

People who follow PVE guides for gearing get a nasty surprise when they aren't as tanky as they should be.

 

To OP: I am not sure how you play, but the fact that you used 2 quickbars for gear and & didn't bind your CDs suggests to me you are potentially a clicker and have room for improvement when it coems to play. Yes, three sins are annoying, so are 3 juggs, or three of anything on the other team.

 

Use your mouse to turn - that way they can't "run circles around you", keybind your stuff, and you're golden.

[petergohan]

the damage tanks are dealing is ridiculous, there is no point in being dps anymore basically, imagine two cannons, both are same size and deal same damage, but one is made of glass, and the other of steel... Edited March 26, 2016 by petergohan

[kweassa]

the damage tanks are dealing is ridiculous, there is no point in being dps anymore basically, imagine two cannons, both are same size and deal same damage, but one is made of glass, and the other of steel...

 

...not really.

 

The damage guard/juggs are dealing is about as much you'd expect from DPS guard/juggs... which is, yes, we know, by itself a problem, but only because they shouldn't be doing that much damage in a tanking stance. Frankly the usual reason they seem to be doing too much damage is simply because they don't die often, and its not they don't die often because they're tanks, but rather the most inspiring and memorable guard/juggs you see in WZs almost always come in pairs or trios or quadruplets with personal heal stooges behind them. You know, the premade/guild sort who joins up and gets tricked into thinking they're actually a good player, and people recommend that he plays a healer... so they take him in every PvP as a personal heal vendingmachine in this easy-mode heal meta.... but I digress..

 

By themselves, guard/juggs have actually lower average defense/survivability than sent/maras because the main tanking stats aren't working in PvP. One of them is totally broken-level useless, the other just barely limps through. Whomever this great, terrible skanky jugg or guardian you see, try and see if they can do the same shi* when they not larrying along personal heal slaves.

 

Its more of a godawful premade loflest steamroller teams + yet another sorc/sage issue, rather than a guardian/jugg issue. Yeah, they are problem in evenly matched fights, but in most reg WZs, the perceived problem stems up from a different source.

Edited March 26, 2016 by kweassa

[Wimbleton]

I did pewpew a fully tank geared PT a couple of days ago on my merc and i couldn't scratch him. I'm not the greatest merc dps but I can do 2.5-3k and I couldn't touch that bastid. I had a chat with him about his gear is how I know he was properly tank modded. I think that people are believing a bit too heavily into the group think when it comes to the viability of real tanks tanking. I think the real benefit of dps modeling comes from the tank being able to do substantial dps and the fact that the benefit of a tank is heavily weighted in guard and taunt, rather than simply avoiding defensive modeling due to its lack of value. Edited March 26, 2016 by Wimbleton

[jauvtus]

I did pewpew a fully tank geared PT a couple of days ago on my merc and i couldn't scratch him. I'm not the greatest merc dps but I can do 2.5-3k and I couldn't touch that bastid. I had a chat with him about his gear is how I know he was properly tank modded. I think that people are believing a bit too heavily into the group think when it comes to the viability of real tanks tanking. I think the real benefit of dps modeling comes from the tank being able to do substantial dps and the fact that the benefit of a tank is heavily weighted in guard and taunt, rather than simply avoiding defensive modeling due to its lack of value.

 

Are you Arsenal? Because Defense stat works against Carnage mara, Marksman sniper and Arsenal merc (ok, kinda ok against IO). Doesnt work effectively against the other classes.

Tank stats are useless. I LOVE being a real tank more than delivering 25k hits. But why gear myself as a tank when I'm a dead weight as such? It's just the devs' incompetence that I'm also being able to pull out (almost) the same numbers as dps.

Btw for dps tanking, Assassin is strongest, Jugger close to it, but PT falls behind them, basically just fluff dmg.

[Lhancelot]

I did pewpew a fully tank geared PT a couple of days ago on my merc and i couldn't scratch him. I'm not the greatest merc dps but I can do 2.5-3k and I couldn't touch that bastid. I had a chat with him about his gear is how I know he was properly tank modded. I think that people are believing a bit too heavily into the group think when it comes to the viability of real tanks tanking. I think the real benefit of dps modeling comes from the tank being able to do substantial dps and the fact that the benefit of a tank is heavily weighted in guard and taunt, rather than simply avoiding defensive modeling due to its lack of value.

 

Honestly I am curious what he was running gearwise, I never ran into anything I couldn't scratch on my merc.

 

I run arsenal, but the only thing that can handle my burst fairly well is sages and an occasional mando healer, not tanks. My burst is way too much for any tank that I have seen so far.

[NikSunrider]

Honestly I am curious what he was running gearwise, I never ran into anything I couldn't scratch on my merc.

 

I run arsenal, but the only thing that can handle my burst fairly well is sages and an occasional mando healer, not tanks. My burst is way too much for any tank that I have seen so far.

 

I'd assume he's running a lot of defence, which will negate the Unload/Blazing Bolts spam. And then shield where he could get it. Ideally, I hear you want about 55-8% shield because most classes won't go above 40% crit, and most attacks will have no more than 5% crit boost from skill tree, unless we are talking full crit specs like Rage/fury.

 

If that was the case, and the Merc in question wasn't too lucky with RNG, that would be a thing.

 

AsI told you some time ago, it is a viable build in regs.

[foxmob]

[quote=TheGoju;8873041Point of a Tank?

]I love Juggernaut.. even the name.. Juggernaut.. reminds you of the man standing admit the carnage and while he is beaten broken bruised and bleeding, he stands ... I know the job of a tank in a WZ, i guard the healer, stand on/by them, CC for them so they don't get beat to hell, Before this starts i am lvl 65, with 208 PvP gear, fully augmented with 208 augs. and full expertise crystals.

/sigh

 

tanks are literally the most valuable players in the trinity. good tanks are far more rare than good dps or good healers. and no, it has nothing to do with skanking or dmg output.

 

first of all, guarding the healer is usually the least effective thing you can do. you should guard the focused target. now if the other team is focusing your healer, then that's great. healers are generally the tankiest specs next to tanks themselves. they can legit heal. and you can mitigate something like 70% the dmg they'd take. as tank, I WANT the other two dps to focus my healer. yes. please. you do that while my dps CCs your healer and picks off your dps.

 

anyway...your job is to CC, mitigate, and redirect dmg. constantly debuff your enemies and buff your allies (intercede, the spammable slow, aoe mezz, etc.) juggs have, imo, the best pure tank toolkit in the game.

 

the only problem with tanking, especially a pure jug tank, is you feel like you're not doing anything b/c you're doing absolute crap dmg. if that's the way you feel, then you're not cut out for tanking. the tank's job isn't to "mess ppl up." it's to annoy the hell ouf ot he enemy healer so he can't get a cast off or can't get in range of his target. it's to mezz the other tank so he can't swap to your team's hard swap target. it's to lay down dat oil slick the second you break through the first door while your mara pops pred and you drop the bridges before the other team is halfway down the corridor.

 

seriously, man, play a classic, absorb/sheild tank right, and you're the mvp of every encounter. ppl might not VOTE for you, but you really are the one who did the heavy lifting.

[kweassa]

I'd assume he's running a lot of defence, which will negate the Unload/Blazing Bolts spam. And then shield where he could get it. Ideally, I hear you want about 55-8% shield because most classes won't go above 40% crit, and most attacks will have no more than 5% crit boost from skill tree, unless we are talking full crit specs like Rage/fury.

 

How'd that be possible? In my case I have about 2,000 defense which lands me barely above 25% base defense chance, and about the 30% shield chance at the same time. With Defense/Immortal skills/buffs the defense chance rises around 34~36% on average, and when blade dance/ravage hits, would be momentarily pushed upto 40% for a few seconds. If the guy invested in shield rating to achieve over 50% shield chance, I don't see his defense going over maybe 17~18% chance.

 

 

If that was the case, and the Merc in question wasn't too lucky with RNG, that would be a thing.

 

This is my opinion as well. Defense chance is unreliable in PvP, but freak accidents do happen, however unlikely it may be. That's both the beauty and the curse, of chance based mechanics.

 

Like I mentioned in other posts, chance-based mechanics become reliable enough to be considered a constant factor when the base chance starts surpassing 60%. Anything under 50% is frankly too unreliable.

[MarauderNZero]

 

your job is to CC, mitigate, and redirect dmg. constantly debuff your enemies and buff your allies (intercede, the spammable slow, aoe mezz, etc.)

 

Or in simpler terms, be very annoying and get in the other teams way.

[foxmob]

Or in simpler terms, be very annoying and get in the other teams way.

pretty much.

[LegionAlpha]

/sigh

 

tanks are literally the most valuable players in the trinity. good tanks are far more rare than good dps or good healers. and no, it has nothing to do with skanking or dmg output.

 

first of all, guarding the healer is usually the least effective thing you can do. you should guard the focused target. now if the other team is focusing your healer, then that's great. healers are generally the tankiest specs next to tanks themselves. they can legit heal. and you can mitigate something like 70% the dmg they'd take. as tank, I WANT the other two dps to focus my healer. yes. please. you do that while my dps CCs your healer and picks off your dps.

 

anyway...your job is to CC, mitigate, and redirect dmg. constantly debuff your enemies and buff your allies (intercede, the spammable slow, aoe mezz, etc.) juggs have, imo, the best pure tank toolkit in the game.

 

the only problem with tanking, especially a pure jug tank, is you feel like you're not doing anything b/c you're doing absolute crap dmg. if that's the way you feel, then you're not cut out for tanking. the tank's job isn't to "mess ppl up." it's to annoy the hell ouf ot he enemy healer so he can't get a cast off or can't get in range of his target. it's to mezz the other tank so he can't swap to your team's hard swap target. it's to lay down dat oil slick the second you break through the first door while your mara pops pred and you drop the bridges before the other team is halfway down the corridor.

 

seriously, man, play a classic, absorb/sheild tank right, and you're the mvp of every encounter. ppl might not VOTE for you, but you really are the one who did the heavy lifting.

 

This ^. So many people that claim to be good at pvp but don't understand this. 100% truth up there.

[TheGoju]

/sigh

 

tanks are literally the most valuable players in the trinity. good tanks are far more rare than good dps or good healers. and no, it has nothing to do with skanking or dmg output.

 

first of all, guarding the healer is usually the least effective thing you can do. you should guard the focused target. now if the other team is focusing your healer, then that's great. healers are generally the tankiest specs next to tanks themselves. they can legit heal. and you can mitigate something like 70% the dmg they'd take. as tank, I WANT the other two dps to focus my healer. yes. please. you do that while my dps CCs your healer and picks off your dps.

 

anyway...your job is to CC, mitigate, and redirect dmg. constantly debuff your enemies and buff your allies (intercede, the spammable slow, aoe mezz, etc.) juggs have, imo, the best pure tank toolkit in the game.

 

the only problem with tanking, especially a pure jug tank, is you feel like you're not doing anything b/c you're doing absolute crap dmg. if that's the way you feel, then you're not cut out for tanking. the tank's job isn't to "mess ppl up." it's to annoy the hell ouf ot he enemy healer so he can't get a cast off or can't get in range of his target. it's to mezz the other tank so he can't swap to your team's hard swap target. it's to lay down dat oil slick the second you break through the first door while your mara pops pred and you drop the bridges before the other team is halfway down the corridor.

 

seriously, man, play a classic, absorb/sheild tank right, and you're the mvp of every encounter. ppl might not VOTE for you, but you really are the one who did the heavy lifting.

 

Your right, and i do switch guard and CC people, I don't just SIT on my healer, i continually check on them, yes.. but i don't just stand there and go .. uh .. hi..

 

I use my AOE taunts, my taunt, my intercede and all that fun stuff that tanks use, I also go where people are getting 2/3 v1 and split the groups, by Choking one, Force push the other, ect.

 

However... when you have 70+ Hp and a single assassin can 1/2 hp you with a stab out of invis, then go invis right away .. and attempt it again .. you tend to lose a little heart.. when sages, can go INVISIBLE unless hit by tech, as shown in the screen shot, (and reported once already to Swtor) and by sage i do not mean shadow that get invis.

 

I am decent, i do not say I'm the best, I do not say I am great, but I DO say that the shadow/Assassin needs to be stopped, why? because in order to give them a tank spec, they gave them tank abilities, to make them viable tanks, which worked great, till some cheese head realized, that while Juggs are more Great reliant, Assassin's don't need defensive gear to gain all that great absorb chance, and such they just get it for being Tank Spec! now they have mitigation, sustain, and can still put more damage! .. Give a sniper Stealth and and **** explode, when ambush comes outta stealth.. but they give Assassins comparable dmg out of stealth and everyone is ok with it .. thinking, that because they dont ware heavy armor, its ok .. its not.. there abilities mitigate for them.

 

I am not saying your wrong, tanking is a pain in the ***, but I am not saying your right and there isn't a issue here. I don't expect a walk in the part when i bring my Jugg in , and i don't give a rats ( insert favorite curse) bout damage, its not my job, But when i cant protect , or CC, or do anything because its stealth stab stealth stab stab whirling saber of death, and then you look at they are TANK spec.. its like .. This War Zone brought you by the letters W, T and F.

[foxmob]

70k is dps/healer hp. if your tank is in the 70s, he's undergeared.

 

sages/sorcs don't stealth. I don't know what you're on about there. it looks like jibberish. do you mean "invincible" as in force shroud? that's invulnerable to force and tech. learn your class's dmg types. every class in the game has white and yellow attacks. use the white ones when he shrouds. it's like 3 seconds (2 gcd) if you're getting dropped beyond recovery during that period, you're doing something very wrong.

 

if you're getting dropped to next to nothing that quickly, I think you need to look inward. most dps can 1v1 a tank, but it takes a long time. tanks have high hp, a lot of dcds and a lot of control. I can hold out 1v2 for a decent amount of time on my dps juggs. you have cds you can actually roll. iunno what you want or expect here. if you're dropping very fast, it's you and your healer. that or you're constantly facing off against the best 5-10 players in the game -- and I doubt that's the case.

Edited April 1, 2016 by foxmob

[Yezzan]

Well, I dunno about anyone else but I do better in DPS gear as an Immortal tank than in tank gear.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Or in simpler terms, be very annoying and get in the other teams way.

 

So, no need for peelers, then ? Because tanks do all of the peeling ?

[foxmob]

So, no need for peelers, then ? Because tanks do all of the peeling ?

why do I get the feeling you've never played on a team, as a team, in your life?

[Banderal]

/sigh

 

[snip good post]

 

 

That's the way I try to play a tank also. But for two things...

 

You say "classic absorb/shield tank". I'm not sure if you actually mean to stack those stats, or if you just used that as a label - but I ran the numbers and convinced myself that for PvP, those stats are VERY sub-optimal even for survival. Forget about DPS, the trade off of stacking endurance vs. absorb/shield/defense wasn't even questionable. Endurance won by a huge amount. Which is too bad, since I like the idea of the shield mechanic better than just having high health, but... bioware... what are you going to do?

 

And then there's the "the best defense is a good offense" misquote. I just catch myself wondering, sometimes, as I'm trying to pull an enemy away from her target, only to see her leap right back in. And I mezz another, only to see my own team break it right away, and I try to slow someone, and they activate some other mobility thing that lets them stay on target... maybe I'd be better off just helping kill them off faster? An enemy in the spawn isn't doing anything to anyone, after all.

 

And its so true that being good at all those OTHER tank things doesn't show up on a scoreboard anywhere, so it's hard to really see that you (I) made a difference. About the only time I feel like I did anything useful is when I get a whisper from some random healer or DPS I was just in a match with, asking if I want to team up. But most of the time I think that's less to do with my awesome tankiness, and more to do with the fact that I actually watch the turret.

[Ansultares]

And its so true that being good at all those OTHER tank things doesn't show up on a scoreboard anywhere, so it's hard to really see that you (I) made a difference. About the only time I feel like I did anything useful is when I get a whisper from some random healer or DPS I was just in a match with, asking if I want to team up.

When the enemy team stops engaging objectives, and engages you instead. When five of them are content to sit at the one node they control and take as long as needed to kill you.

 

MVP votes go almost exclusively to healers, top DPS, and any premade's alpha personality.

 

But most of the time I think that's less to do with my awesome tankiness, and more to do with the fact that I actually watch the turret.

Both. If anything, it's a direct relationship. The tankier you are, the more focused on watching the objective you should be. Squishies need to watch for incoming, or keep mobile to hope to catch stealth, if they're going to survive the fight.

[Greezt]

That's the way I try to play a tank also. But for two things...

 

You say "classic absorb/shield tank". I'm not sure if you actually mean to stack those stats, or if you just used that as a label - but I ran the numbers and convinced myself that for PvP, those stats are VERY sub-optimal even for survival. Forget about DPS, the trade off of stacking endurance vs. absorb/shield/defense wasn't even questionable. Endurance won by a huge amount. Which is too bad, since I like the idea of the shield mechanic better than just having high health, but... bioware... what are you going to do?

 

And then there's the "the best defense is a good offense" misquote. I just catch myself wondering, sometimes, as I'm trying to pull an enemy away from her target, only to see her leap right back in. And I mezz another, only to see my own team break it right away, and I try to slow someone, and they activate some other mobility thing that lets them stay on target... maybe I'd be better off just helping kill them off faster? An enemy in the spawn isn't doing anything to anyone, after all.

 

And its so true that being good at all those OTHER tank things doesn't show up on a scoreboard anywhere, so it's hard to really see that you (I) made a difference. About the only time I feel like I did anything useful is when I get a whisper from some random healer or DPS I was just in a match with, asking if I want to team up. But most of the time I think that's less to do with my awesome tankiness, and more to do with the fact that I actually watch the turret.

 

I have 3 sets of great for my shadow, and I honestly will never go tank unless I know there's a healer in queue, preferably a sage.

 

I don't feel it's worth it to bring a tank to any setting without heals. Maybe it's only shadow tanks...