Game has died, Nowhere to go

[Lodinn]

If the pop of fleet at that time was only 60 people, I'm not going to be feeling like the game is dead/dying or even in trouble. I'm going to be thinking that there's a lot of people just like me: I don't go to fleet unless I absolutely have to, because Gen Chat is a cesspool, and I don't have to be there.

Clarification - number of instances is irrelevant here, i check all of them when I try to assess how many people are there (yes, I actually do). And yes, number of people on fleet is decreasing.

Another methodological feature to be highlighted - it's natural to expect people doing story a lot soon after it's released but then the game reenters a 'stable' state, so if one week after chapter 9 there were 240 people on fleet at peak time, after chapter 10 - 200 and after chapter 11 - 160, it DOES say something about the state of the game unless devs gave people good reason to jump from fleet somewhere else (they didn't).

Moreover, from PvE-r perspective - on TRE we don't have custom channels like /opschan or /endgame, or at least those are not so widely known. So, many pugs gather on fleet only, which means no strongholds/Odessen for those doing casual raids. There's a clean decline on those.

Also, sometimes I check number of people in conquest guilds at peak times, it's more fluctuating due to dead guilds/merging + recruiting but after the last chapter and Arena delayed there's a decline on that also.

What else... Recruitments ofc, they're bearing a touch of grim lately sometimes. Seen announcements starting with 'Is your old guild dead?' or something like that from multiple guilds. Community tries to reshape itself to survive somehow but that doesn't mean environment didn't get harsher.

[TX_Angel]

I hate instance warzones and never queue for them. I won't even do it to get the companions that need WZ participation. There's really nothing they can do with WZs that will ever make me want to play them.

 

How about rewards for open world PvP? The only games I've enjoyed PvP in were objective based, open world ones.

 

There is effectively no open-world PVP in SWTOR. Oh sure, there is a TINY bit, but not really. If that is your thing, you need a new game.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Because it's based on percentage of capacity that's logged in? They increased capacity on the servers not too long ago, so the natural trend, even if the actual numbers of people logging in is exactly the same as the same time last year is that it's going to show as lower. Because even though it's the same number of people, with a higher capacity, the percentage is, in fact, lower.

 

I based what I saw on the trend since KoTFE really ... you may be right about year on year and I still maintain things aren't as bad now as they were this time last year ... I had a worse opinion of the game then but then KoTFE was announced and I was like "brilliant!" ... of course many bad decisions have come since like this style of episodic content, the non optional difficulty and just setting it too super easy and of course the ignorance of end game PVE.

 

I maintain my "this game is in trouble" position is only based around "this game is in trouble if they continue down this path" ... they may very well have the next KoTFE announcement up their sleeves in the next month or few.

 

EA doesn't list every revenue stream in every 1/4ly report. In so far as I'm aware, they never have, and they have a lot of games online, generating electronic revenue. This was bandied about a lot during DA I development on the BSN, wondering what the online requirement for that game was going to be. Turns out it was MP. I don't think a mention, or a neglect to mention is going to mean anything in the big picture, since this isn't the only online game that EA is running.

 

It won't mean anything concrete but it tends to add up to the mounting evidence imo ... especially when you see other games get a mention when they are indeed doing well. I was surprised at the small mention this game got in the last one personally after the hype and expense that must have gone into advertising for KoTFE but you still had a mobile star wars game effectively get more attention ... I wonder if that was because that game performed better than expectations thus warranted more attention where as however this one may not have.

 

We also don't know what model this game aims for anymore ... is it primarily revenue through subscriptions or are microtransactions/cash shop the main revenue goal. I'm beginning to think the later would be the bigger revenue gatherer so in terms of how EA view the viability of the game we have no idea what so ever what revenue there may bel ike ... subs could drop below expectations but electronic revenue might be above which would keep them happy however the previous report lead me to believe the opposite is true. This of course still doesn't tell us what their goals or kpis for this game are.

 

 

A caveat to your caveat is that if there's 1 instance of fleet with 60 people, but 3 instances of Odessan with 40 in one, a discussion I saw yesterday on Odessan about it's population, where someone popped into chat with "There's only 40 people on Odessan, the game's dying", what kind of indicator is fleet?

 

Fleet is the constant throughout time of this game ... we get new planets and areas over the course of the game and their populations swell and dip as they become less relevant however fleet is a constant so one would expect the fleet numbers to bounce back a bit as the new areas become less relevant. Granted odessan is a bit different with unique vendors that are relevant to current content.

Again fleet is going to be an indicator of people running end game PVE content ... odessan will be an indicator of those running KoTFE content ( alliance alerts etc. )

 

 

The only thing it shows is how many people are on fleet when one looks while there. That's all it really shows. I've seen that aforementioned discussion on Nar Shaddaa too, where there were 15 people in one instance, but three instances. If the pop of fleet at that time was only 60 people, I'm not going to be feeling like the game is dead/dying or even in trouble. I'm going to be thinking that there's a lot of people just like me: I don't go to fleet unless I absolutely have to, because Gen Chat is a cesspool, and I don't have to be there.

 

Yes but for people who are regularly there and spend much time there they will notice a decline on population. I remember Dalborra became like that over time - from when I first started highly active fleet and easy to find pops etc. for end game content to almost a ghost town ... they soon announced transfers ahead of a merge and I quickly left.

 

It's all anecdotal at the end of the day and the observation can only hold relevance to the person observing it ... it's then on us if we choose to believe their observations or if they are just making stuff up.

 

We absolutely don't know how many people are playing. Therefore, any anecdotal evidence is circumstantial, at best. So a guy runs to the forums complaining about a 10 minute queue time and it is, according to him, the death knell of swtor. He would have rage quit 3 years ago as a dps, waiting an hour to maybe get a queue pop. The problem with queue pops overall is, for PvE at least, there's a lot more to it than just how many people are in the queue. How many are tanks? How many healers? My own experience hitting the queue as a dps and a tank tell me that they are very different animals: 45 minutes in the queue as a DPS, followed by 30 seconds, at most, in the queue as a tank. This is at the same time, since I logged off my DPS and onto my tank, with my guild leader hitting it the same way, only going on a healer the second time.

 

 

Just as well I don't necessarily agree with said poster then ... I do agree with the observations TUXs made in the post I quoted though and I don't think he was the one saying '10 min queue times = death".

 

 

I'll just point you to Rappelz, where the method of leveling from 150 to 170, a process that took 2 years for the first person that achieved it, runs exactly like this:

 

1. Log in and start spamming Whole Chat for a group.

2. Eventually fill your group, a lot based on what role you're playing, and how well known you are.

3. Get to your spot in the dungeon, and kill the same mobs for as many hours as you can keep the group together.

4. Rinse and repeat until you hit cap, and level any pets that you may have.

 

To be honest I have pretty much no idea what that game is beyond hearing it in passing. A quick check shows it is one of those Korean style MMO's I believe? They and a lot of the Eastern markets are quite a different market in some ways and what works for one won't necessarily work for another.

 

I guess the question would be is that a game EA would be happy to own and run in the state you mentioned above? Population, revenue etc. etc. It's not like it's the flagship of 'Star Wars' online community based play ( an apt term for the state of the game I feel ).

Would it succeed in a purely western MMO market as SWToR has to? comparing Apples to Oranges is always difficult.

 

You provided it for me, right here.

 

Perhaps I should clarify that statement ... I meant that the 'doom n gloom' threads are being met with less and less derision whilst there are more and more of the doom n gloom threads. Just my casual glance over the first couple of pages of General had me thinking the other day before I even got involved in this topic "Wow this seems like an abnormal amount of whinging".

[robertthebard]

Snipped for wall of text removal".

 

Rappelz has been running in the US market for at least 10 years that I'm aware of. It's down to three servers now, but the people there would make EA proud. I know a few people that have literally paid in 10,000 dollars over that decade, and that might be a bit short. Their cash shop is filled with all the P2W features you could imagine, and some you probably didn't. So yeah, it's a publisher's dream for a revenue stream, if they'd gotten in back then as opposed to now.

 

However, we can relate the same concept to progression raiders. They run the same content over and over until they get what they're looking for either individually, or as a group. I know in Aion we ran some content until we were ready to blow up the servers, trying to get all the weapons for our legion mates. That's what it took to get 'em, and that's what we did, and we were far from alone, other than some of the lucky souls that got theirs on the first or secondish run. DDO's raids have a guaranteed drop for every item in the raid, after 20 completions. It's the stuff that goes on in MMOs everywhere that have this kind of content, especially if it has specific drops tied to it. The raid community in Neverwinter was facing the same thing the last time I was there, about 4 or 5 years ago, I'm not exactly sure, but it was two hard drives ago on this PC.

 

These time sinks are a deliberate mechanic to keep you playing. It's more obvious in the Korean Grinders, like Rappelz, and Aion, to a lesser extent. But that is the sole purpose of having limited drops, instead of everyone getting everything on the first time in, to keep people playing, and hopefully, in the F2P market, paying.

[MadCuzBad]

There is effectively no open-world PVP in SWTOR. Oh sure, there is a TINY bit, but not really. If that is your thing, you need a new game.

 

Thats correct. That is the reason why que times are crucial to the survival of this game. Whether people like it or not, PVP is a large part of this game.

[Max_Killjoy]

Thats correct. That is the reason why que times are crucial to the survival of this game. Whether people like it or not, PVP is a large part of this game.

 

What do you consider a "large part" of this game? Percentage of players who partake of PvP content more than X times per Y time period? What is your source for data supporting your claim?

 

"Like or not" is irrelevant. What matters is numbers that support your assertion.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[MadCuzBad]

What do you consider a "large part" of this game? Percentage of players who partake of PvP content more than X times per Y time period? What is your source for data supporting your claim?

 

"Like or not" is irrelevant. What matters is numbers that support your assertion.

 

Are you serious?

[IanArgent]

Are you serious?

 

Yes, he's serious

[Codedrago]

Are you serious?

 

Yeah, what's he thinking? Expecting logic and proof to back up an assertion of fact on the internet!

[Khevar]

Are you serious?

Since you seem to have a hate-on for Max and won't answer him seriously, let me give it a try.

 

You said this:

Thats correct. That is the reason why que times are crucial to the survival of this game. Whether people like it or not, PVP is a large part of this game.

As much as my guild was big into both PvP and PvE before it drifted apart, I'm forced to say that PvP has never seemed to be a large part of the game, at least to me.

 

1. It rarely gets attention from the devs (other than the occasional "let's bork balance")

2. It's one of the areas where content has been REMOVED from the game (rip 8v8)

3. PvP servers have had lower populations than the other servers for the life of the game.

4. BW has been a story-focused PvE gaming company since forever.

 

In other words, my own personal experiences all suggest that PvP is a SMALL part of the game. And yet you claim it is a LARGE part of the game.

 

In what way do you think it is a large part of the game?

 

Are you talking purely about participation (e.g. % players do PvP)?

Are you talking about importance (e.g. a game without PvP has no value)?

Are you talking about some other way of measuring LARGE?

Edited March 17, 2016 by Khevar

[eriksarcasm]

Thats correct. That is the reason why que times are crucial to the survival of this game. Whether people like it or not, PVP is a large part of this game.

 

The game can survive without PvP.

 

Many of you stopped reading. For those of you who've stayed.... buttcheeks.

 

Furthermore, while it would be nice to have new scenery to ignore while racking up your kill count, and new objectives to scream at your teammates for not completing, Warzone PvP adds nothing to the story , nothing to the Star Wars mythos, very little to your overall character development, and limited entertainment value. What can you do in SWTOR PvP that you can't do any any of a zillion other games? Will that Civil War ever be won? What is in the Voidstar's computer? The answer is it doesn't matter. PvP doesn't matter. It's fun, often frustrating, sometimes emotionally rewarding, but overall brings nothing to the game (KOTFE companion aside) It's just something else to do. And it's the same old something else to do over and over again, no matter how you dress it up.

 

And I guess people are starting to realize that. Maybe that's why fewer and fewer players are queueing up, leading to your unbearable 10 minute waiting times.

[Andryah]

Since you seem to have a hate-on for Max and won't answer him seriously, let me give it a try.

 

You said this:

 

As much as my guild was big into both PvP and PvE before it drifted apart, I'm forced to say that PvP has never seemed to be a large part of the game, at least to me.

 

1. It rarely gets attention from the devs (other than the occasional "let's bork balance")

2. It's one of the areas where content has been REMOVED from the game (rip 8v8)

3. PvP servers have had lower populations than the other servers for the life of the game.

4. BW has been a story-focused PvE gaming company since forever.

 

In other words, my own personal experiences all suggest that PvP is a SMALL part of the game. And yet you claim it is a LARGE part of the game.

 

In what way do you think it is a large part of the game?

 

Are you talking purely about participation (e.g. % players do PvP)?

Are you talking about importance (e.g. a game without PvP has no value)?

Are you talking about some other way of measuring LARGE?

 

Me thinks that confirmation bias is strong in him.

[annabethchase]

Have you considered that many people may be taking a brief break from PvP knowing that a new WZ launches in a couple of weeks? I certainly am less inclined to PvP until then.

[Max_Killjoy]

Large.

 

Just saying.

 

 

At any rate, maddy, if you want people to take your concerns seriously, you might consider not expressing everything you have to say in a way that's clearly an attempt to belittle all discussion or disagreement.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[Legolose]

Sorry about your queue issues, OP. Probably didn't need another dudebromadthread.

 

Meanwhile, my server is absolutely playable.

Same I see no decline so ..

[Khevar]

Now I know some of you will kick and scream about what I just said. But to be honest I have a little theory about that. And this is the reason I don't care ho badly you kick and scream and run all over these forums yelling a hollering about this. I know that when your over the target is when you catch the most flack. This issue is right on target whether you like it or not.

I have another theory.

 

A couple times now, I've tried to engage you in a reasonable conversation on this subject. Asking you direct questions, not attacking, not trolling, not belittling. With no response. You've expressed zero interest in a reasonable conversation.

 

But then someone else comes along and attacks your ideas and suddenly you've got plenty to say.

 

So my theory is that because you can't PvP in game, you're trying to PvP here on the forums. The purpose of this thread isn't to make the game better, but to alleviate your boredom.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Khevar

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I have another theory.

 

A couple times now, I've tried to engage you in a reasonable conversation on this subject. Asking you direct questions, not attacking, not trolling, not belittling. With no response. You've expressed zero interest in a reasonable conversation.

 

But then someone else comes along and attacks your ideas and suddenly you've got plenty to say.

 

So my theory is that because you can't PvP in game, you're trying to PvP here on the forums. The purpose of this thread isn't to make the game better, but to alleviate your boredom.

 

I think after the SWG nonsense the troll part is obvious.

[Gretzel_Eis]

You think this game is dead? Go take a look at Rift. Go take a look at Wildstar. Go take a look at Archeage. That's dead.

This game will never die as long as it is the only Star Wars MMO out there (the galaxies private servers are horrendous garbage).

 

And since we're on the topic of PVP, go take a look at how dead it is on TERA; where you can only do ONE battleground because only one offers meaningful rewards. Where the last three classes to be released are hilariously broken and far far stronger than all of the older classes.

 

I haven't even hit 65 yet and I get really fast queues for both flashpoints and warfronts on Harbinger.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Gretzel_Eis

[ChicksDigHarleys]

There is effectively no open-world PVP in SWTOR. Oh sure, there is a TINY bit, but not really. If that is your thing, you need a new game.

 

I don't play this game for PvP. TBH it wouldn't bother me in the least if they did away with it completely. I'm just saying the only way I'd seek out PvP in this game is if it was open world, objective focused. No amount of new WZs will get me to queue for them.

[Kaedusz]

PvP queue is 1/2 min on TRE and ToFN(which is light)

 

Why is every1 complaining?

[MadCuzBad]

PvP queue is 1/2 min on TRE and ToFN(which is light)

 

Why is every1 complaining?

 

I have a fully geared commando on TOFN and the que times are way off. I have no idea what your talking about, but TOFN is not even close to what it used to be as far as que times are. Que times are horrible on that server now compared to what they were 6 months ago or a year ago.

 

Go troll somewhere else. This aint my first rodeo kid. I have played TOFN for 3 years now. I am very well aware of the health of that server.

[Kaedusz]

Must be cus you are rep. Edited March 17, 2016 by Kaedusz

[CrazyCT]

Go troll somewhere else. This aint my first rodeo kid. I have played TOFN for 3 years now. I am very well aware of the health of that server.

 

Sorry, MadCuzBad, finished my latest book, so was reading over your previous comments for a laugh. Had to check out some after you claimed this "ain't [your] first rodeo." Even my wife (who tries to have as little to do with the game and forums as possible) almost pissed herself reading them. My favourite part was these few messages from January 2012 -

 

01.20.2012 , 12:09 AM | #596

 

This kid will NOT be resubbing. Thanks anyways!

 

ADIOS!!!

 

01.20.2012 , 06:05 AM | #1

 

I wonder how long I can keep posting un-subbed?

 

Anyhow everyone who can not stop playing this game ADIOS!!!

 

I have no interest at all continuing this game.

 

The only thing I like about this game is the Star Wars theme. But thats about it.

 

The game itself in my opinion is 100% complete fail and a joke.

 

ADIOS CONTAMINOUS!!!

 

I'm outta here

 

01.21.2012 , 06:20 AM | #11

 

If I am still here in 2 more days then I will believe you, lol

 

And then, 23 minutes later, in a thread created by you called "I JUST RE-SUBBED BUT..........."

 

01.21.2012 , 06:43 PM | #1

 

I can post on the forums but when I try to log into the game it says I have no active subsciption. Anyone know how to fix this?

 

Thanks, really cheered me up.

Edited March 17, 2016 by CrazyCT

[Max_Killjoy]

Sorry, MadCuzBad, finished my latest book, so was reading over your previous comments for a laugh. Had to check out some after you claimed this "ain't [your] first rodeo." Even my wife (who tries to have as little to do with the game and forums as possible) almost pissed herself reading them. My favourite part was these few messages from January 2012 -

 

And then, 23 minutes later, in a thread created by you called "I JUST RE-SUBBED BUT..........."

 

Thanks, really cheered me up.

 

 

That was a very informative read.

[robertthebard]

Sorry, MadCuzBad, finished my latest book, so was reading over your previous comments for a laugh. Had to check out some after you claimed this "ain't [your] first rodeo." Even my wife (who tries to have as little to do with the game and forums as possible) almost pissed herself reading them. My favourite part was these few messages from January 2012 -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And then, 23 minutes later, in a thread created by you called "I JUST RE-SUBBED BUT..........."

 

 

 

Thanks, really cheered me up.

 

Well, I bet that's pretty embarrassing. It's also not surprising, at least to me. I've seen this exact thing before, with people screaming about how they're going to "take my ball and go home" for years, although they don't seem to ever actually do that, but they keep on screaming it.