Salt In The KotFE: Are We Just Hurting Ourselves?

[Lunafox]

Good read.

 

Me personally...I've been doing EXACTLY what you suggest since launch. 4yrs of paying a sub without interruption & asking for more story and single player friendly content. I subbed through all the content they've done since launch aimed at group players. Because this is a MMO after all.

 

I've done PvP twice in 4 years, I've never done an OP (except the one at the end of SoR). The only FP's I've done are solo versions. I didn't even do heroics until recently. I realize all these things are necessary in an MMO. But me....I've spent the last 4 years mostly leveling alts thru the vanilla storylines.

 

But swtor also has a LOT of players like me. Players who are here because I loved kotor. Players up until swtor had never touched a MMO.

 

I've enjoyed the game more since SoR than I have since launch. I'm loving KotFE. I'm sure the devs will add more OP's & PvP maps "soon". Lol

 

We could be twins honestly. And I do agree with the belief that there will be more ops and pvp things soon...they just have to finish with their immediate commitment to story, or do it in a way where it's smoother and easier to do, so they have time to focus on all the things.

 

I came up on Korean grinding games, and while they were fun in their own way and needed a lot of time and patience, nothing has even remotely held a candle to SWTOR.

[squirrelballz]

I experienced an instance of this recently not in the KotFE story, oddly enough, but in the regular Sith Warrior story line on Belsavis. There you take out Darth Ekkage with the help of Somminick Timmns, a Jedi master. I was able to force Timms to have to make the very decision you are talking about, and he opted to kill her for the greater good -but he was still conflicted about it and knew it would be something he would have to deal with forever (until I took him out too, of course).

 

But I get what you are saying, Squirrel. Bioware prides themselves on good story. I want to see some complexity! That's one of the things I love about George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thones) series. Characters are never inherently good or evil. There is only self-interest, and they do things for a myriad of reasons that often earn them reputations that are either deserved or undeserved.

 

Yes exactly like that I LOVED that part of the Sith Warrior story I felt it was some of the most compelling story writing the game offered and I'm also a huge GOT fan so I definitely agree with you about characters like that. I want depth and complexity, I want to be immersed into the story completely but I need it more than anything else to be compelling and driven if I am going to love it.

[Calligan]

I came up on Korean grinding games, and while they were fun in their own way and needed a lot of time and patience, nothing has even remotely held a candle to SWTOR.

 

*Raises a glass*

[Lunafox]

*Raises a glass*

 

*clinks mine with yours* Cheers!

[psikofunkster]

If you can afford to keep paying the $15 per month while admittedly doing less, figure out how you can communicate with metrics: Raid log for now and take a break from story grinding with a view to invest more time once new group content is published. Actions in-game translate to analytics and metrics, and the metrics are Bioware’s primary go-to source for decision information. Consider carefully how what you are doing comes across in metrics, and fine-tune your actions to argue your case for you.

 

Do you work for EA? If you can afford?? They are NOT charity, do you want us to become charity for them? really? Paying 15 dollars per month for a product that doesn't satisfy me anymore?. Have you stopped thinking all these could pretty much mean a different thing for them at the end?: people have stayed subbed all this time because of the chapters and don't like raiding anymore we are fine THIS way. More chapters coming...

 

My sub finishes next Monday, i played KOFTE, raise 2 new toons, and played during the holidays... time to take a huuuuge break soon....sadly. but coming back for at least a month once the entire KOTFE is done.

 

In my personal opinion even if they release new group content next October (which i really doubt), the damage to raiding is done...things are not gonna be the same again because game is not the same anymore.

Edited January 31, 2016 by psikofunkster

[Cicgnar]

Well, my two cents.

 

Guys, you're getting it mostly wrong. MMO doesn't mean PvP, nor End-Game PvE. It just means you'll be sharing your playing enviroment with much more people. That's it. Any game that provides that IS an MMO, despite what you think about it or prefer in them.

 

We simply have been spoiled by WoW. Let me elaborate for a moment here.

 

The first MMO I ever played was Ragnarok Online, and in a far former incarnation that it is now (meaning, less class, less quests, less items, less... well, pretty much everything). Quests there were at the same time, more meaningful and meaningless. Meaningful because you truly had to work hard to even find them, and the best you could hope to achieve from them was unlocking new zones or some piece of gear, at best. Meaningless because they were simply task of grinding particular mobs by the thousands. The only way to level up was grinding. The learning curve was crazy, and you hadn't the slightest clue when you had stepped in map far outside your level until you died. And if you died, you lost experience, and could lose a level. Also, you wouldn't regain HP/SP almost at all on your own, and had "weight limit". End-game bosses were in uninstanced areas, and yeah, your loot could be stolen by someone doing a last-hit. Or even picked from the floor after you killed the boss before autoloot existed. Hell, even other mobs were there to steal loot and despawn! PvP was a weekly event, about assaulting/defending castles. And you could only participate if you had a guild big enough to challenge one of those fortresses. You could craft items, and improve items you got; but everytime you did this, you risked the materials and even the item to be permanently lost. Buffs were much more shortlived, and had no timers... And I could keep going on.

 

You could argue that some of this was because the limitations on its engine, but it is not the case; the game is still on and kicking, and they have showed in many events that it could work differently.

 

You're probably thinking "That's an asian MMO, grinding and such things are what you'd expect from such game". And yes, it's true. But most of the MMO that existed at the time were not THAT different.

 

That is, until WoW came around (and it can be argued that it was not SO different at launch). WoW almost exclusively created or, at least, made standard leveling by completing quest. Made standard the instanced areas for group content. Made standard low-recovery times between battles, at least without a character who only existed to help the other recover, the "buffer". Made standard the free-for-all-any-time PvP. Made standard... the Endgame as objective...

 

Essentially, made standard everything you're claiming a MMO should be.

 

And my point is... No, a MMO doesn't have to be like that, that's simply how you're used to play one. Paradigms can change, and since WoW is in decadence, as are all the games that copied that formula, this is the time to try new things.

 

And that's what Bioware is trying to do here, focusing even more in the storyline; though I personally think they could be doing better.

 

You want a new PvP Warzone? Okay, as said, this game is focused on the storyline and the elements that makes this game a RPG. Today, still before chapter X is launched, I see NO way you could pit the two factions in a different battle against each other that could justify a new battleground storywise. So I'd rather wait a little longer for a new warzone rather than have another one devoid of any meaning. I admit, I'm biased here, I'm not much a fan of PvP, I prefer PvE...

 

You want a new OPs? As I said for the WZ, we haven't reached the point where an OPs would make ANY sense. We're running a small group standing against an empire that currently can kick both factions' asses and don't even break a sweat, we have to stay small to survive. Granted, the Star Fortresses could have been done better, even as proper FPs with a Solo Mode.... But for epic enemies? The only who would qualify as such are right now the main antagonists for the story. And seeing that, at least, we have 6 chapters ahead of us in season 1, I find quite premature if we could face them right now.

 

Don't get me wrong, you're right to complain. If you don't like something in a product you paid for, you have every right to complain, and they have to listen to you. But keep in mind WHAT product you bought. This is a Story driven MMORPG, and is trying to escape the WoW-standard by focusing even more on the story elements. This is not an endgame MMORPG, where leveling is a chore that keeps you away from the fun.

 

OPs and Ranked WZ are not the objective, just the entertainment between stories.

 

That being said, I truly hope the devs also understand this, and the chapters that are coming to us take longer to be finished, so we get to see more character development, and drive our storylines. I'd settle for chapter X and the rest to last as much as chapters I to VI each one...

 

... But I'd be surprised if I'm not being disappointed. We'll find out in barely ten days.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Cicgnar

[trancejeremy]

To me it's simple.

 

Bioware apparently couldn't afford to continue the game beyond 50 the same way 1-50 was, with separate class and faction/planet stories.

 

In RothC, they tried giving us just faction stories. It didn't seem too popular. (Though it also seemed very poorly decided, with super linear quests and over the top mob density)

 

In Shaoow of Revan, they decided to give us one story, but make it grouping heavy. You can't go an hour, seemingly, without having to do a flashpoint. Thankfully you can do those solo, but only through the help of an overpowered PC that essentially does everything for you. SoR seemed to be even less popular than RotHC.

 

So BW switched gears. From going from an expansion where there is a flashpoint to tell the story, they made the new expansion solo focused. Still perhaps a bit on the easy side, since companions are a bit overpowered, but at least your presence matters, unlike the solo flashpoints with the combat support droid. I've actually had companions die during KotFE and had to use heroic moment on occasion.

 

And KotFE seems to be a success. Maybe it was because it actually catered to the primary population of MMORPGs - casual players and soloers, rather than the ones that screamed the loudest for attention (raiders, groupers). Maybe it was the movie and all the associated Star Wars marketing.. But regardless, it seems to be the future.

[Roccobb]

Well, my two cents.

 

Guys, you're getting it mostly wrong. MMO doesn't mean PvP, nor End-Game PvE. It just means you'll be sharing your playing enviroment with much more people. That's it. Any game that provides that IS an MMO, despite what you think about it or prefer in them.

 

 

What exactly is a shared experience online with the expansion? Stories that the game does everything possible to discourage you from grouping together?

[psikofunkster]

General chat lol

[Calligan]

Do you work for EA? If you can afford?? They are NOT charity, do you want us to become charity for them? really? Paying 15 dollars per month for a product that doesn't satisfy me anymore?. Have you stopped thinking all these could pretty much mean a different thing for them at the end?: people have stayed subbed all this time because of the chapters and don't like raiding anymore we are fine THIS way. More chapters coming...

 

By all means, unsub if you want to. My post was more about retooling our strategy if we want change and not being so downright nasty while we're going about it. Right now we're moaning on the forums and are bashing Bioware, SWTOR, players who come out to say it's not so bad, etc., and how's it working for us? There are people who are paying the $15 a month and are just raid logging for now. Perfectly legit. And their metrics show up in front of Bioware saying they are willing to pay $15 a month for the raiding but not the story. So I'm not advocating charity, but I am trying to get my mind around speaking to them in a language they understand.

 

What exactly is a shared experience online with the expansion? Stories that the game does everything possible to discourage you from grouping together?

 

I think his point is to question our assumption, Roccobb, that an MMO requires PVP and end-game raiding to be legitimately called an MMORPG. He's right that nowhere is it written that an MMORPG MUST HAVE element X, element Y, and element Z to be considered an MMORPG. All it means is that it is a "massively-multiplayer" RPG: An awful lot of people online who can play an RPG together. But to your point, what we do together is the next question, yes. What we do in an MMO together makes it either worth it or not worth it. His point is that WoW has set a certain baseline standard in our expectations that it should have raiding and PVP, but nowhere is raiding and PVP in the definition. Does that make sense? You'll notice the RP guys aren't freaking out because they make up their own content using the same tools of being in an RPG environment together. The fleet trolls aren't complaining because they're in it for the chatroom aspect, again using the RPG environment and the multiplayer aspect to get what they want out of it. I'm talking in circles now, but I hope you see my point.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Calligan

[_Kezza_]

Bioware apparently couldn't afford to continue the game beyond 50 the same way 1-50 was, with separate class and faction/planet stories.

 

Do you have any idea how much doing those individual stories cost? Voice actors alone are usually cost 3 times more per hour than any normal actor that you see on TV.

 

Then making those individual faction/class stories is like having to make a game for each different class. So if they were to continue that pattern every expansion would be like having to make 8 expansions along with a story for each.

[psikofunkster]

By all means, unsub if you want to. My post was more about retooling our strategy if we want change and not being so downright nasty while we're going about it. Right now we're moaning on the forums and are bashing Bioware, SWTOR, players who come out to say it's not so bad, etc., and how's it working for us? There are people who are paying the $15 a month and are just raid logging for now. Perfectly legit. And their metrics show up in front of Bioware saying they are willing to pay $15 a month for the raiding but not the story. So I'm not advocating charity, but I am trying to get my mind around speaking to them in a language they understand.

 

The EA people DON'T listen (but they love to delete threads and send warnings for sure), you should already know that. Do you think by supporting them and paying your monthly sub will change anything? it will not. At the end they are gonna do what they want to do. However if you think that will work for you, go, you are free to do it.

 

I don't know the situation on the other servers about raiding pugs but on the JC the situation is not good IMO, since this week i've noticed most of the people are not puggin ev kp hm anymore, yes i'm not saying is 0 but you can feel the interest on them has diminished and its pretty much the beggining of the year when this game hits May things are gonna be worst, worst than bad...

Edited January 31, 2016 by psikofunkster

[GalacticKegger]

Well thought out & communicated. I think the "oversalting" comes from Bioware fueling the shock → confusion → hurt → inquiry / complaint → anger → apathy trail with an ever present supply of salt (explained later.) The anger segment comes from the radical game change incident and is exacerbated by inquiring minds being flamed or ignored resulting from efforts to question or complain. Once apathy sets in, well ...

 

As an analogy, the anger came from waking up one morning to take the old 4-seater Ferrari out for an open world ride with their mates, only to find it gone and a minibike with a handlebar-mounted cinematic display and training wheels in its place. That made a lot of Ferrari owners angry. Giving it a chance, those people took the minibike out for a spin to see if it could do the same things the Ferrari did, but to no avail. It's puny, only seats one and was fitted with the same governor that everyone else's minibike was fitted with. That made them even more angry.

 

So they came here searching for answers and understanding and were met with "just go away" ... or "deal with it" ... or "don't let the door hit you on the way out" ... or, well ... you get the idea. The community turned on itself, fueled by two things imho: (1) Bioware's bending & twisting the corporate line as a means to explain away how their minibike is better than the Ferrari it replaced while assuming everyone would blindly follow in lock step, and (2) Bioware's communicating directly with the community on topics that are exclusive to what they want to hear and not what the community needs addressed. Which made the former Ferrari owners who were already more angry even more angry.

 

Getting to the apathy part, the hope is that subscriber perks and exclusive access to the rest of the game will mitigate apathy. Those who remain will find out soon enough. Giving a 2-day early access pass to the only people who could access the new content in the first place is a clear indicator of how clearly they are thinking right now. (A gift from the department of redundancy department.) That was almost a shoot-from-the-hip damage control attempt, and made the people who were already more and more angry start to pity the situation and the people who will be stuck with it.

 

There will always be a handful of predators who grief others for bringing up issues that burst their bubbles. After all, it is GD on an Internet forum. No forum is immune. But the polarization of the community, which I believe is at the heart of your article, is squarely on Bioware's shoulders because they dropped a bomb and simply walked away. The people in here who are all too quick to flame others for their veracity - and feel good about it - are merely following Bioware's example.

 

Style of message delivery contributes to this polarization as well, which you reveal as "how people are going about it." The problem is that when the proverbial sh** hit the fan for some, they were too upset to back down from their hurt. I was one of them. While I never made it personal (contrary to popular belief, proper use of the English language is not making it personal) there were occasions where I was not Emily Post either - and for that I apologize. I'm sure others reacted the same way and for the same reasons (being ignored by Bioware & getting flamed by their worshipers.)

 

We are indeed hurting ourselves, and EA is making sure that Bioware doesn't run out of salt.

Edited February 2, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[spectreclees]

To me it's simple.

 

Bioware apparently couldn't afford to continue the game beyond 50 the same way 1-50 was, with separate class and faction/planet stories.

 

 

Which is absolutely fine considering in the long run it would be completely ridiculous to continue separate stories the way it was. I'd much prefer if you had tidbits of story that involved your class.

 

 

In Shadow of Revan on Rishi, as a Jedi Consular I was summoned to construct my very own Datacron to pass on my knowledge to future generations.

 

 

Things like this are welcomed and I'd prefer it over continuing to force stories that will take thousands of hours to complete and not be cost efficient at all.

Edited January 31, 2016 by spectreclees

[psikofunkster]

We are indeed hurting ourselves, and EA is making sure that Bioware doesn't run out of salt.

 

I agree sir, i do. Puggin somtimes with ninja looters, fools and trolls and paying for doing that at this point one have to be a little crazy. Game was fun again for a short moment (doing kofte on my first toon) but that was all, recycled endgame content is exactly that, the same...Holidays are over and Sub finishing next monday so time to love myself more and replace the salt for the sugar.

 

Oh wait i 'm elegible to play next february's chapter then until february 9th, its gonna take me just 1 hour anyways.

Edited January 31, 2016 by psikofunkster

[KLGChaos]

I just wanted to make a point about FFXIV because you mentioned how that is often used in contrast to SWTOR. As someone who played through Alex and really had gotten into that game, there have been a lot of complaints about it as well. Heavens ward was a good expansion, but as most people point out, it's just more of the same. There was little endgame content for five months and that was badly balanced (there was no middle tier difficulty challenges, it went straight from easy Alex to ridiculous gear check Savage). There were two end game dungeons that had to be run over and over again to get tomes that had a cap, which made gearing up multiple jobs impossible. It just became a grind again, which is why I left.

 

I think, unfortunately, SWTOR's problems are symptoms of MMOs in general. The Secret World, a game I also played and enjoyed, also suffered the same issue. They had one raid and didn't get a new one for well over a year. Same with dungeons-- it took them that long just to make a single new one, which locked a lot of people out because you needed to grind up a new weapons/shield system to play it.

 

MMO's have become stagnant. Something needs to change, imo, or they're all going to end up like this one, The Secret World, etc. Developers just can't keep up with player demand for new content. It's why I've taken to rotating subscriptions. I play an MMO until I get bored of that grind wall and move onto a new one or back to one I haven't played before. It's the only way to keep them from getting stale right now.

[Cicgnar]

What exactly is a shared experience online with the expansion? Stories that the game does everything possible to discourage you from grouping together?

 

Before quoting someone, read the actual quote. "Enviroment" is not "experience".

[ariasfel]

While I agree with you that the vote with your wallet thing is kind of silly, I highly disagree with your idea that people should stay subbed because $15 is not that expensive. The fact of the matter is this, if everyone is upset but everyone still continues to subscribe, the game's quality and attention will suffer. If you're willing to pay something for nothing, then the devs will figure they can continue to give you nothing. As long as EA/BW is getting paid, they don't care much about the quality of the game, as this is a business.

 

In short, if you don't like it, don't pay for it as it only justifies what they're doing that you don't like, and will lead to more of the same. If the game doesn't provide what interests me, I don't care to pay to maintain its existence. Once I down the few operations bosses that remain for me, I will leave.

[CrazyOldMystic]

I believe their is a difference to being a sheep like the fan club and someone who recognizes the utter failure on several aspects of this game. Have you ever noticed how quickly someone is attacked if they do not act like a fan club member? Its pretty quick and under normal circumstances involves six people tarring the person up and down. So how does that make the other half feel? The ones that are trying to point out real problems with the game, so that they are fixed. Id wager angry would be the feeling.

 

Lets not even go down the way of community manager. The pvp section has put questions to him on the forums and on podcasts. The result has been no answers, just things getting worse. This too ads to anger or as you say op salty feeling. Now for the first time the pve end of the community is feeling this treatment. From what I have read so far, they are not enjoying it.

 

You can point the finger at any one group or any one person. You can try to sound elegant and make certain players look bad. Play your little games all you want. In the end of the day swtor still fails to answer many important questions. Questions like whats the deal with game stability? When their was a customer service forum on this website, there was a tone of threads on this one. I have heard many possible answers for this. None from the devs. Why the lack of development into 8 vrs 8 ranked pvp? People want it, but yet no answer on possibly bringing it back. Where is all this cartel market money going? Where did the several million put into this game go? What is the ultimate goal of this game? If you think about it that goal has never been really clearly defined. Which leads people to think that maybe all this is, is a money grab. The list goes on and on.

 

Lastly as far as mmorpgs. What is killing mmorgps is lack of content built around force able group content, and forcing players to think. As everything became easier in mmorgps, one of the reactions to this was no consequences for players who were a holes. Look back in mmorpgs history and you will get the idea of what I am talking about. Also things have gotten too predictable, which is why I tend to think if your going to make a mmorpgs, the only way and best way is full on sandbox. All the fps and all the ops and only one really felt like it captured the terror aspect of the Star Wars universe. I think maybe thats where mmos fail in pve, it becomes too mundane, instead of trying to grab at peoples emotions. How be it those emotions being anger, fear, or something else. By mundane I mean evil bad dude that can one shot kill your tank if he misses the mechanic the end. You get the idea then again I probably just waist ed 5 minutes of my life saying something that is more then likely way over peoples heads.

[Felendis]

I just wanted to make a point about FFXIV because you mentioned how that is often used in contrast to SWTOR. As someone who played through Alex and really had gotten into that game, there have been a lot of complaints about it as well. Heavens ward was a good expansion, but as most people point out, it's just more of the same. There was little endgame content for five months and that was badly balanced (there was no middle tier difficulty challenges, it went straight from easy Alex to ridiculous gear check Savage). There were two end game dungeons that had to be run over and over again to get tomes that had a cap, which made gearing up multiple jobs impossible. It just became a grind again, which is why I left.

 

I think, unfortunately, SWTOR's problems are symptoms of MMOs in general. The Secret World, a game I also played and enjoyed, also suffered the same issue. They had one raid and didn't get a new one for well over a year. Same with dungeons-- it took them that long just to make a single new one, which locked a lot of people out because you needed to grind up a new weapons/shield system to play it.

 

MMO's have become stagnant. Something needs to change, imo, or they're all going to end up like this one, The Secret World, etc. Developers just can't keep up with player demand for new content. It's why I've taken to rotating subscriptions. I play an MMO until I get bored of that grind wall and move onto a new one or back to one I haven't played before. It's the only way to keep them from getting stale right now.

 

As someone who also played FFXIV, i disagree that heavensward was a good expansion. First it was overpriced, it was 40$ with little added content, it only had 2 dungeons in which you needed to grind for tomes. Gathering was also painful as you also needed to grind scripts to get gear. But my main issue with heavensward was that the Alex just feels that it has no substance at all. As someone who raided heavily in FFXIV, i felt that Alex just wasn't worth running at all.

 

Just look at vanilla FFXIV and their Coil of Bahamut raids those were probably one of my favorite raids as it actually had a story within. I feel that swtor suffers with how everything feels the samey and the dumbing down of content is hurting the game instead of benefiting it.

 

Coming back to swtor was different as everything feels easier, but makes swtor so good is the story. But i do agree when MMOs become grindfest many people leave as they don't wanna keep doing the same thing over and over again.

[Evangeline_Blue]

I think putting even 1% of the blame on the community is misguided.

 

If the gameplay experience is compelling, people will stay. Nothing in the forums will change that.

 

Sheep do as they are told. If someone appears to have sufficient authority, the sheep will follow. Not trying to be harsh, but, the reality is that most people don't really think very hard about anything. The idea that forum posts can have no influence is highly off the mark. They can, and they do.

 

Eve.

[Lenlo]

I feel like at this point, even if/when they do finally add more endgame content, they're going to have to get inventive with the OPs fights, the pvp maps, and the 4 man FPs.

 

Really crazy, inventive, fun, and hectic stuff:

 

1. An Operation that traverses a battle in orbit. From an allied ship, boarding and enemy vessel which as a bonus phase starts crashing into a planet below. The last phase is timed, don't fight your way to the escape pods in time and you'll miss out on awesome additional loot and achievement rewards. You and your group will just wake up at the crash site.
   
2. A GSF mode with AI starfighters and clashing capital ships (maybe Eternal Empire vs. Republic vs. Sith Empire?)
   
3. PvP modes that ignore the traditional factions and just throw players at each other.
   
4. PvP maps with shifting terrain and random modifiers.
   
5. A slew of Flashpoints that allow players from opposite factions to group together.
   
6. Operations and Flashpoints Leaderboards. Compete with other players to get stuff done the fastest and most efficiently (time during NPC conversations doesn't count against you). Compare your stats with other players, and in the end, improve your play style.
   

 

Maybe even after KOTFE do away with the current faction dichotomy.

 

Turn the Eternal Empire into a new playable faction, expand the guild conquest thingy into Galactic Conquest, and allow players and their guilds to decide which major Faction they'll back for domination of the galaxy. Heck, let players make their own minor Factions by allying with each other's guilds.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Lenlo

[JennyFlynn]

Very much enjoyed your article and think it's rather spot on for most part.

 

I am one of the new people, I guess. I played SWTOR for about a month back in 2013 before my WoW raid team came knocking wanting me to rejoin the reformed team. I came back to SWTOR this past Christmas, encouraged by the new movie as well as having rewatched the old ones. I came to the forums to check out information about changes, how certain things worked, to find answers to parts of the game I didn't fully get etc. and I was literally blown away by the vast amount of negativity and complaining. Threads of "I quit, I want my money back, I won't sub anymore, PvP sucks, no new Ops, really Bioware?, wah wah wah" and I really sat there baffled thinking "is the game that bad..?". I'm not one to be put off or swayed by someone else's opinion and for most part I don't care which superior/entitled person is having some sort of tantrum about one thing or another.. what matters is that I'm enjoying myself so whatever. However, I can completely see how someone who's not yet invested/immersed into the game all that much could be put off and have second thoughts about becoming invested upon seeing the massive waves of negativity. I do think it's toxic, I do think it's counter productive. I don't think that screaming, cussing, threats of quitting/unsubbing and the likes are a productive way of getting Bioware to change their mind or encourage positive changes. Perhaps you've tried it in a more positive fashion first and it fell on deaf ears which is a shame but resorting to negativity won't improve that. People also seem to think that just because something they were hoping for, something they wanted wasn't implemented that therefor their suggestions and feedback has been ignored which is a bad assumptions because some times.. what you're asking for is simply not feasible or not something that has a place in BW's vision of their game and just because they didn't contact you directly to make you aware of this, doesn't mean your feedback's been ignored.

[gabigool]

Sheep do as they are told. If someone appears to have sufficient authority, the sheep will follow. Not trying to be harsh, but, the reality is that most people don't really think very hard about anything. The idea that forum posts can have no influence is highly off the mark. They can, and they do.

 

Eve.

 

You're claiming that subscribers have read the forums, felt them to be toxic, then unsubscribed?

 

For every one person who has unsubscribed because of the toxicity/negativity on the forums, how many people have unsubscribed because of dissatisfaction with the actual game?

 

I believe it's far more than 100. I would wager it's more than 1000. I stand by my earlier comment.

[LonelyWookiee]

I'm not sure enough people read the forums for it to make a difference/influence other players. Though I will say that it is more likely that players in the forums have a greater investment in the game and would also tend to be more vocal elsewhere in the game and could possible sway others.