DayneDrak Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 They're gambling packs, you can argue semantics as much as you like. You pay money for digital currency to use to buy digital items based on a random number generator. You may want to adjust your line of thought a little on what gambling actually is, it doesn't always involve currency. No, you're the one arguing semantics. Since you made the assertion, I'm going to ask you to back it up - Under what legal requirement to publish drop rates would Cartel Market items fall? I agree that the idea of whether or not it's gambling is largely determined by point of view and semantics, but legally, it doesn't hold, so your argument that they should provide numbers doesn't hold either. Unless you know something I don't, in which case, please enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I also don't see how people are getting sour over a grand cube that replaces what effectively would have been the most utter common of trash in the new pack ( anything bronze you could pick up for under 10K on the GTN ) with something that will have FAR greater value namely any bronze item from any other pack ( due to embargo ). Primarily due to - The lack of sticking to the B/S/G packs (you knew roughly what you would be getting, for example a speeder). - The lack of providing new items instead of older items. - The lack of transparency to the drop rate percentages on the cubes. - The lack of addressing other concerns within the thread. Covers some of them. Now if it was a 10% chance at dropping a random B/S/G pack (of any type, with a 60/30/10% split) in addition to the other contents? As well as addressing the lack of Cartel Certificates and / or Reputation? Those would be improvements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I also don't see how people are getting sour over a grand cube that replaces what effectively would have been the most utter common of trash in the new pack ( anything bronze you could pick up for under 10K on the GTN ) with something that will have FAR greater value namely any bronze item from any other pack ( due to embargo ). Do you honestly believe you'll see less "trash" items? You won't. They'll create the same number of crap items per pack with as few NEW models as they need to make...they'll just be called "SILVER" now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 No, you're the one arguing semantics. Since you made the assertion, I'm going to ask you to back it up - Under what legal requirement to publish drop rates would Cartel Market items fall? I agree that the idea of whether or not it's gambling is largely determined by point of view and semantics, but legally, it doesn't hold, so your argument that they should provide numbers doesn't hold either. Unless you know something I don't, in which case, please enlighten me Enlighten yourself on the definition. Enjoy the reading. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gambling&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=KnWqVtHMH8y9UdDaqYgK#q=gambling+definition As to the legal requirement? Where did I even say it was a legal requirement? I think perhaps you're inflating this past something it needs to be, just to try to further your own agenda and to try and stop yourself losing face in knowing that you're factually incorrect on your own particular definition of the word "gambling". Semantics aside, perhaps drop it? No-one gains anything by either of us playing forum tennis on semantics, and it detracts from the overall point of the thread, this is the last time I'll reply to you on the subject. Read and enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I'll call you on this one. Gambling packs. Most gambling you'll know the odds of winning something, however small it is (Lottery for example). Anything remotely involving gambling should really provide the odds of winning something. Hence BioWare should share the drop rate percentages on the cubes (heck that's gambling within gambling). How can you compare this with a lottery? You are GUARANTEED to get something from these packs. If you are after a certain item don't buy packs hoping to get it , that's just stupid. Buy packs to turn to credits to buy the item you want or trade items you get etc. If there was a possibility to legitimately get nothing then sure it's like a lottery but that's hyperbole so suggest that's the case in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 What they really should do is just move silver to bronze drop rate, gold to silver drop rate, and put the cube on the gold drop rate. On the other hand, it's probably beneficial for them to make the cube alot more common, since that would likely mean more purchases of the current pack for the items people want out of it Meh I hope they don't do that, gold in the new packs had a dismal drop rate so to get a gold rate that will yield you 1 or possibly 2 on average cube's per hypercrate for what's probably going to be a bronze item if you only have 1-2 packs to open isn't going to do this pack any favours. This whole change relies on the cube having a decent drop rate thus introducing a lot of variety back tot he GTN and people's inventories. If they stuff it up with less new items in the pack they will be more devalued than ever we see new items in a new pack and it's going to end up coming across to consumers as worse - not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayneDrak Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 As to the legal requirement? Where did I even say it was a legal requirement? I think perhaps you're inflating this past something it needs to be, just to try to further your own agenda and to try and stop yourself losing face in knowing that you're factually incorrect on your own particular definition of the word "gambling". You said it was gambling and Bioware should publish odds of winning as such. It was a declarative statement. I can quote it back to you if you want. But it's cool, you can go ahead and cast aspersions on me and my motivation when I'm just having a discussion. And I guess I owe you an apology, I mistook you for a rational person, mea culpa. Semantics aside, perhaps drop it? No-one gains anything by either of us playing forum tennis on semantics, and it detracts from the overall point of the thread, this is the last time I'll reply to you on the subject. Read and enjoy. Cool, peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Primarily due to - The lack of sticking to the B/S/G packs (you knew roughly what you would be getting, for example a speeder). Those were never in new shipments and will still be brought back. Yes they did an about face on keeping them on the CM but personally I'm looking at this as a separate issue since this is the make up of the existing packs. - The lack of providing new items instead of older items. I don't see the removal of bronze junk as that big of a deal and the huge amount of variety you have to pick from in all packs ( that you cannot get now - we see far more complaints about not being able to get items than we do "oh no I didn't get the crappy bronze item from the new pack!" ) more than makes up for it. You effectively get a greater range of individual items now from your hypercrate - sure it might not be new but who cares ... so much new bronze stuff is junk anyway. At least the older stuff has better resell value. - The lack of transparency to the drop rate percentages on the cubes. That's different to any packs ever how exactly? Sounds more like it should be an issue for a separate thread on drops rates in general. - The lack of addressing other concerns within the thread. Has nothing to do with the cube itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayneDrak Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) Meh I hope they don't do that, gold in the new packs had a dismal drop rate so to get a gold rate that will yield you 1 or possibly 2 on average cube's per hypercrate for what's probably going to be a bronze item if you only have 1-2 packs to open isn't going to do this pack any favours. This whole change relies on the cube having a decent drop rate thus introducing a lot of variety back tot he GTN and people's inventories. If they stuff it up with less new items in the pack they will be more devalued than ever we see new items in a new pack and it's going to end up coming across to consumers as worse - not better. Well, doing it that way would probably make the folks who regularly buy the packs and dont have old stuff happier. Judging by the responses in this thread, there's a few regular purchasers who would be very unhappy at getting crap they already have or can't sell, so limiting the Cubes would probably make them happy. Like you, I don't actually mind the potential to get old items. I just don't like their implementation. I may actually buy a Hypercrate of this new stuff, depending on whats in it. The lack of Cartel Certificates is about the only thing holding me back. I don't think having a slow influx of older and previously unobtainable stuff is a bad thing, it may certainly help bring down prices with more supply. I do get that folks dont like RNG stacked on top of their RNG when their real cash is involved though. Hopefully they tweak drop rates well enough that the regulars dont feel like theyre being fleeced (anymore than usual anyway), and continue to buy packs, while also enticing newer folks to buy some stuff as well. Edited January 28, 2016 by DayneDrak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xo-Lara Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 My point is the bronze pack drop rates don't seem anywhere near as bad as people think or guess they are. Maybe if you only buy 1 or 2 then yeah the odds of you getting something great is really thin but when you buy en masse you can get a better feel for the true drop rate and it's not half bad at all. I bought an obscene amount of those BSG-Grand packs from the GTN ( when priced within my margin of acceptable pricing which at it's highest was 2.8 million for gold mount/armour packs ) and I wouldn't have done this if I didn't think the drop rates were worth it and that I could turn a large profit overall from them. I get a feeling a lot of the opinion on drop rates in this thread is somewhat uneducated or from people who got burned on a few packs. Most people don't buy packs in obscene amounts, so there is no reason to think they will benefit to that extent. I mean most people who play the game don't even play the GTN. Often, the people buying packs are just buying for themselves; they aren't watching trends or keeping track of the minutiae of it. A lot more people stand to be burned by this change than stand to benefit. However, I would only spend so much on a game regardless. In a world full of real life expenses, buying hypercrate after hypercrate just to see how many I have to buy for it to be profitable sounds really bad. If some people have money they don't want that badly then so be it, but I'm not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Do you honestly believe you'll see less "trash" items? You won't. They'll create the same number of crap items per pack with as few NEW models as they need to make...they'll just be called "SILVER" now. Possibly but I walk away with 20 cubes on top of that from a hypercrate I'd be very happy ... as I said it all comes down to drop rate and we won't know until we buy ( carrot on a stick ). If it's crap I'll buy 1 crate and that'll be it - ifi t's good ... damn I'll need more inventory. To be clear I don't want the stuff from current packs - it rarely breaks even in terms of profit for me. I want to get my hands on these lovely cubes. I see profit, profit, profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Well, doing it that way would probably make the folks who regularly buy the packs and dont have old stuff happier. Judging by the responses in this thread, there's a few regular purchasers who would be very unhappy at getting crap they already have or can't sell, so limiting the Cubes would probably make them happy. True enough there are people who just want new stuff but I follow pretty much every new pack thread as it helps me gain some market insight for the future and I almost never see people like "wow can't wait to get that crappy common armour set" - this is rare. It's almost always the more rare, really nice looking or named piece they want and this won't ideally change with these packs, new shinies and less junk ... hopefully anyway. I do get that folks dont like RNG stacked on top of their RNG when their real cash is involved though. True but this game has established since it had a cash shop how things work. Some items you can buy direct, the rest you can buy packs - hope it drops else sell and buy/trade it with someone else. That's how it's always been so no point in people beating the dead horse over it now as though it's some different angle Austin are taking. If anything you will make more profit on these packs ( drop rates pending ). Hopefully they tweak drop rates well enough that the regulars dont feel like theyre being fleeced (anymore than usual anyway), and continue to buy packs, while also enticing newer folks to buy some stuff as well. I would wager the majority of sales come from people who sell packs straight to GTN. You see people listing 10-20 crates at a time and numerous single packs etc. etc. and there is people like me who use our in game credits to buy them up en masse if we think they're worth it ( like BSG and grand packs were to me ). So it's really getting people to part with their credits as much as others with their money that's important here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 A lot more people stand to be burned by this change than stand to benefit. Justify that statement, don't just say it. How are they going to get burned by this change which implies it's somehow going to be worse than it was before? They're going to be worse off getting a random pack instead of a worthless bronze junk item ... give me a break. People forget Austin only put 1 pack at a time up now too so the value of bronze for current packs is the worst ever in this game. This change is beneficial to how it was before. If people don't buy en masse and want a single item or two then they are stupid for buying just a few packs to try get it. We have an ingame economy to support them getting the 1 or 2 items they want to get, that's no different with this change than it was before and again this change will ideally give more credits per pack than before as there is more variety in a pack than EVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Why not? What exactly are you hiding here? It's not like drop rates are IP or trade secrets in the industry. If you want to rebuild trust with the community, you have to do more then communicate more.... you have to actually communicate in a more transparent and less ambiguous manner as well. I get that some data about how the game works needs to be kept secret... but for the life of me I cannot figure out why drop rates for items in cartel packs is one of them. Is it because if players saw the actual drop rates from the pack loot tables... it would turn them off of buying? That is the logical conclusion when you keep data like this secret. Good to see you Andryah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomdiddy Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I don't know if anybody has asked this yet but can unopened Chance cubes be sold on the GTN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I don't know if anybody has asked this yet but can unopened Chance cubes be sold on the GTN? Already getting the chair and popcorn for when they drop and arent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xo-Lara Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Justify that statement, don't just say it. How are they going to get burned by this change which implies it's somehow going to be worse than it was before? They're going to be worse off getting a random pack instead of a worthless bronze junk item ... give me a break. People forget Austin only put 1 pack at a time up now too so the value of bronze for current packs is the worst ever in this game. This change is beneficial to how it was before. If people don't buy en masse and want a single item or two then they are stupid for buying just a few packs to try get it. We have an ingame economy to support them getting the 1 or 2 items they want to get, that's no different with this change than it was before and again this change will ideally give more credits per pack than before as there is more variety in a pack than EVER. I justified it already that's what the statements before the part you want justification for was. But, you do realize that you will get bronze items from the cubes since that will be the only source of them in the future, right? New packs won't have bronze items old packs do. However, I highly doubt everyone is going to go out and buy several hypercrates just because there is a new pack. With many people complaining about a single piece going for 1 mil, they don't likely have 7 or 8 mil to drop on a hypercrate from the GTN. And many people don't want spend a lot of real life money to get several hypercrates which is how there is loss. People aren't buying in the same numbers as you. The right pieces can offset much of the cost by themselves but most people won't get those pieces. Besides, a lot of people will buy a few individual packs from resellers just to test the water. People like opening packs. If they can't get anything good off a few packs, you can bet there will be hesitation to buy many of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustyDemonNinja Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Hey folks, We have definitely seen a few consistent topics popping up in this thread and we want to make sure we get answers to those questions. Here they are: How much will packs cost after these changes? The price will remain the same as the previous pack at 200 Cartel Coins per pack. Even with the price being the same, it is worth noting that you have a higher chance to receive Gold and Silver items than there was previously. Are Grand Chance Cubes replacing all Bronze items in packs? Yes, any time you would have gotten a Bronze item in the past, you will now get a Grand Chance Cube in its place. Is it possible that I can get two Grand Chance Cubes in one pack (meaning no new items)? Yes, this is possible. Just as with previous packs, it is possible to get two Bronze drops together, and in this case that means two Grand Chance Cubes. Keep in mind that you can get a new item from a Grand Chance Cube. It is even possible to get a full lootboxed version of one of the new Gold Armor Sets. How does this change affect the drop rate on new pack items? The Bronze category will be less common than it was in the past. This means that there is a higher drop rate for Silver and Gold items (which are new to the pack). What are the drop rates for Bronze, Silver, and Gold items inside of the Grand Chance Cube? Although we can’t go into details on specific drop rates, Silver and Gold items will be much more common in the Grand Chance Cube than they were in previous Bronze and Grand Packs. Are Collection unlock prices going to be adjusted? There are no plans to adjust Collection unlock prices at this time. Are there or more less new items in the new pack, with the removal of Bronze items? There are more Silver and Gold items than there were in previous packs, but less items overall with the removal of Bronze. Thanks everyone. -eric Ok im sorry but this is terrible. If I buy a pack I better darn well get a new item. These chance cubes should be added in addition to the normal items you got before. Especially since you are not adjusting unlock costs. This is ridiculous. Say goodbye to you pack sales. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: New packs should as follows: A chance to receive a Chance Cube that will award a previous packs item (say 15% or less, personally i'd go for 15% chance to get this) -OR- a scrap. 2 items from the pack (Mounts, Decorations, etc) 1 rank 5 or 6 Companion Gift Is it possible that I can get two Grand Chance Cubes in one pack (meaning no new items)? Yes, this is possible. Just as with previous packs, it is possible to get two Bronze drops together, and in this case that means two Grand Chance Cubes. Keep in mind that you can get a new item from a Grand Chance Cube. It is even possible to get a full lootboxed version of one of the new Gold Armor Sets. ^ This is just terrible. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Why not? So they can dynamically change the rates when they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) Possibly but I walk away with 20 cubes on top of that from a hypercrate I'd be very happy ... as I said it all comes down to drop rate and we won't know until we buy ( carrot on a stick ). If it's crap I'll buy 1 crate and that'll be it - ifi t's good ... damn I'll need more inventory. To be clear I don't want the stuff from current packs - it rarely breaks even in terms of profit for me. I want to get my hands on these lovely cubes. I see profit, profit, profit Fair enough, I think you explained your position quite well and I agree with you - thank you for that. I just think most of these are purchased (either on the GTN or with CC) by players wanting the new items though, not players hoping to get junk from 8 packs ago. For YOU, this may be a great change - someone who capitalizes on the wants of others - which isn't a bad thing at all, we all do it at times, you just seem to be better at it than most, but I think you're likely an exception to the rule, not the norm, which is why packs sell so well. Edited January 28, 2016 by TUXs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadtechSavant Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) I think too many of us have inventories stuffed full of old banners, emotes and other stuff that still don't sell for more than 1k credits to be happy seeing them being tossed back in the mix. Really and yet thread after thread asking for old packs, not to mention old packs still out sell new packs. The only thing missing from the new packs is cartel certs, maybe they could add this in say 1 in 4 chance getting a certs instead of scrap metal. Personally I don't like certs but if they added new items that could be gotten from certs I could live with it, that or take away the bound to legacy of certs so they can be sold if nothing new is added. Even though I personally like the chance cube the question of certs should be answered. A. are they ever coming back if not WHY? and why were they removed to begin with, who's decision was it and can the employee come to the forums and give an reason. Still I guess whatever that employee says will not be excepted no matter what by the players so guess he's does not want too. No matter what BW put in packs players will complain, just as they have from day 1 when they were introduced. Edited January 28, 2016 by DreadtechSavant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NermalDetonator Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Most people don't buy packs in obscene amounts, so there is no reason to think they will benefit to that extent. I mean most people who play the game don't even play the GTN. Often, the people buying packs are just buying for themselves; they aren't watching trends or keeping track of the minutiae of it. A lot more people stand to be burned by this change than stand to benefit. I'm curious why you think the type who doesnt play the GTN and doesnt buy a lot of packs somehow has filled their collection from previously issued packs. Most of the contents of the cube will be new to them. In the event its not, even an old bronze is worth considerably more than whatever bronze garbage they would have gotten instead. Oh boo hoo, they didnt get their Outlander Observer lower body armor (GTN price, 1 wet fart) or Czerka derp-mobile. Pretty much ANYTHING else is better, because they could sell it and buy something else (and if they get an old armor set, at least its a full set vs a few pieces). The bronze market on old stuff holds better because theres more options. Bronze value from the current packs gets watered down near instantly - right now the jawa scrap is the most valuable thing in the average pack. And that's ignoring the cubes having a chance to give silver/gold items. It seems the only ones really negatively impacted are the whales with full collections or guys sitting on old stuff whose value might drop because its being reintroduced. The casual person or new player gains access to stuff they probably missed out on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panegyrist Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) Really, if Cartel Market Certificates were added back into packs (preferably with new reputation/added items to reputation vendors), I'd be fine with the changes... (though I'd like it if Ball Toss, Imperial/Republic banners, womp weasel pets, Antique Socorro Weapons, and Ubrikki Sand Devil/Crimson Claw weren't in the chance cube loot tables - there are enough of those already floating around in the game to last a lifetime) Access to the rep vendors was always a big motivator for my pack buying habits. Edited January 28, 2016 by Panegyrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saregon Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Hey folks, We have definitely seen a few consistent topics popping up in this thread and we want to make sure we get answers to those questions. Here they are: How much will packs cost after these changes? The price will remain the same as the previous pack at 200 Cartel Coins per pack. Even with the price being the same, it is worth noting that you have a higher chance to receive Gold and Silver items than there was previously. Are Grand Chance Cubes replacing all Bronze items in packs? Yes, any time you would have gotten a Bronze item in the past, you will now get a Grand Chance Cube in its place. Is it possible that I can get two Grand Chance Cubes in one pack (meaning no new items)? Yes, this is possible. Just as with previous packs, it is possible to get two Bronze drops together, and in this case that means two Grand Chance Cubes. Keep in mind that you can get a new item from a Grand Chance Cube. It is even possible to get a full lootboxed version of one of the new Gold Armor Sets. How does this change affect the drop rate on new pack items? The Bronze category will be less common than it was in the past. This means that there is a higher drop rate for Silver and Gold items (which are new to the pack). What are the drop rates for Bronze, Silver, and Gold items inside of the Grand Chance Cube? Although we can’t go into details on specific drop rates, Silver and Gold items will be much more common in the Grand Chance Cube than they were in previous Bronze and Grand Packs. Are Collection unlock prices going to be adjusted? There are no plans to adjust Collection unlock prices at this time. Are there or more less new items in the new pack, with the removal of Bronze items? There are more Silver and Gold items than there were in previous packs, but less items overall with the removal of Bronze. Thanks everyone. -eric Answering questions instead of opening a dialogue = Decision is already final, you're not listening, and nothing we say will matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaladan Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 i don't care !!!!! fix bugs and classes and after i will consider to buy your ***** pack again ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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