(Revalation)Heals are not the problem tanks are

[Savej]

Tanks without healers aren't really game changing - not so good ones can even be liabilities. Healers without tanks not so much: they are still gaping problems that have to be focused immediately and removed from the game asap, at all costs. The fact that we have gotten so used to that priority system and most don't even question it anymore says pretty much everything. Two healers (especially sorcs) x-healing is generally worse than a tank and a healer. Edited December 29, 2015 by Savej

[Selout]

Tanks without healers aren't really game changing - not so good ones can even be liabilities. Healers without tanks not so much: they are still gaping problems that have to be focused immediately and removed from the game asap, at all costs. The fact that we have gotten so used to that priority system and most don't even question it anymore says pretty much everything. Two healers (especially sorcs) x-healing is generally worse than a tank and a healer.

 

Exactly. The established "PvP community" (I laugh at even calling them that) obviously balk at getting rid/changing guard all the while the competition just evaporates due to disinterest. It's as if they can't even see what's killing the game they claim to love. Just insane to me. People don't like the competitive aspect of SWTOR, for multiple reasons, but guard being the coup de grace. It's that simple. I am on Harb and it's like the same 16 people who do team 4's. Lol. That's not a community. Maybe it's time to evolve the thinking regarding SWTOR PvP before it completely dies.

 

... as if Bioware cares lol.

 

Food for thought: The early incarnation (I forget what beta it was of which xpac) of Spirit Link Totem for Shaman in WoW was going to be a persistent totem with no cooldown. They play tested it, and realized how insanely overpowered it was and now it has 2 charges with a 3m cool down. I am not suggesting that this is what tanks should get. I am saying that even Blizzard saw that a persistent HP sharing ability like that would be too good and cause game play to become really really boring and stagnant... just like SWTOR PvP is currently.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Selout

[metaldudie]

Tanks without healers aren't really game changing - not so good ones can even be liabilities. Healers without tanks not so much: they are still gaping problems that have to be focused immediately and removed from the game asap, at all costs. The fact that we have gotten so used to that priority system and most don't even question it anymore says pretty much everything. Two healers (especially sorcs) x-healing is generally worse than a tank and a healer.

 

I disagree alot with this 2x healer is not better than tank+ healer. Wanna know why cause it happens often enough that you have a good regs team and if 2 dps on 1 each start stunning them its gg for them. With a tank+healer please try and sperate the two please i dare you to do this with all the CC it is not possible the only way to break that chain is for obe of them to make a mistake and fo to far away from the other. So i disagree the gaurd mechanic makes sorcs heals a walk in the *********** park

Edited December 29, 2015 by metaldudie

[Selout]

I am not sure what bracket you are playing at but @65 1 good sin tank and 1 good sorc healer is far far far better than 2 sorc heals lol. It's not even a debate. Edited December 29, 2015 by Selout

[metaldudie]

Missed typed meant 2x healers are not better than heal tank combo

[Avicii]

Yes, they are different... GW2 way is better....

 

ROFL if you go to the GW2 PvP forums its the same as here. People unhappy with the current meta, the uselessness of Thief and Warrior, the bunker meta, the expansion fracked up PvP ect. That is one thing that the games have in common.

 

GW2 PvP is different better is a matter of opinion. It's a different style of PvP just like WS, you cant compare them because they are built differently. If you are having such a great time why are you here if I may ask? The CC never really bothered me, if it is a hang up for you then enjoy GW2 PvP while you still can. People instead of knocking games should be glad we are in an era where we have multiple MMOs that we can play and people can find which games style they enjoy the best, it hasnt always been that way in the MMO space.

 

Most players have played most if not all the recent and older MMOs on the market either when they launched or in beta ect. There is nothing that is capturing people. So you bounce around play what is fun till you are burnt out and then play something else, I for one am happy we live in a time with so many different choices.

If I was to play GW2 now for the first time it would have a different feel and if I'd never played anything like it I might thing it was the best thing since vajaj. WvWvW was awesome (minus the bugs at launch where armies would disappear lol) but that doesnt seem to be the case any longer with HoT as it seems the upgrade mechanic and new map arent that great.

 

That said people are blowing the guard mechanic out of portion. Yes it is strong but how come it is now a huge problem? What changed to make it such a large issue? The guard mechanic plus taunts are what make tanking in SWTOR unique and add flavor to the game, it is never going to be removed & it shouldn't be.

 

A better alternative is looking into what the exact issue is and making suggestions on how to tune it. And lol at guard turning people away from the game hyperbole. There are many reasons people stopped playing and went other places, guard is likely at the bottom of that list well behind CC. For instance like patch 1.2 pulling of RWZs and Solo RWZs (per the guild summit) the night before, the removal of RWZs in favor of arenas, lack of balance and content ect.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Avicii

[Selout]

A better alternative is looking into what the exact issue is and making suggestions on how to tune it. And lol at guard turning people away from the game hyperbole. There are many reasons people stopped playing and went other places, guard is likely at the bottom of that list well behind CC. For instance like patch 1.2 pulling of RWZs and Solo RWZs (per the guild summit) the night before, the removal of RWZs in favor of arenas, lack of balance and content ect.

 

Honestly, SWTOR has less CC than other games outside GW2. I can't imagine less CC. SWTOR CC has long cool downs and it doesn't have a single spammable CC. I don't know if people have any perspective on the other, arena games out there but even Tera has way more CC and let's not even get in to WoW. GW2 has that garbage conquest-only mode so they don't even qualify. A simple fix to the duration of white bar, lengthening it, would do wonder's for the game in that respect but honestly, everyone has cc-immune abilities, it's not hard to deal with.

 

Almost every person I have had come try this game, guard is among the TOPS in reasons for not playing. Not always the ONLY reason but among the tops. I don't know what makes people quit. I can tell you what makes people not give SWTOR PvP a real shot... guard. It's not gratifying at all to play against, play with or even play. I have been playing this game since release and I can say, without question, guard in it's current form no longer has any positive value for the game. It turns away new players and makes high-end PvP really boring. There are so many fixes to guard that would make it skillful to use and add positive complexity to the game. As it stands, it's just mindless. Don't think that because I no longer think it's good for the game that I have any problems dealing with it. I want compelling game play.

 

Edit: It is inaccurate to think that because something is different it's good. You are correct, it is unique but the PvP here in SWTOR is lackluster compared to the other games that offer arena. Taunt and guard can be good. Taunt is fine. Gaurd is indefinite. It persists through cc, no cooldown, no duration, no cost for swapping targets. Just far far too easy a mechanic to manage for such a large payoff.

 

Edit2: Lol, ranked WZ's were utter trash across the board. Pot5, Bastion, Shadowlands... was there even one good RWZ server in NA compared to other games with similar game modes? I don't think so. Arena could have been what this game needed but they needed to rework some of the core aspects of the game for smaller group dynamics and never have introduced solo-q but I digress.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Selout

[cyjaxusa]

Guard is boring the way it is currently implemented and results in ridiculously drawn out exchanges. Just give tanks static barriers and tweak taunts against players to have reduced effectiveness when re-applied back to back, lasting no longer than 60 seconds.

[Rantank]

I think that guard gives a baseline improvement to the healer's survivability regardless of the skill of the healer or the tank. The tank can suck and do no switching and not much peeling, and the degree of difficulty in killing that healer has still gone up substantially, assuming they remember not to wander off. The DPS however, don't have a comparative baseline improvement, and while good DPS can, and do, mow down average and bad combos, non-good DPS will be stymied by all skill levels of tank/heal combo and will be stalemated by something that doesn't feel fair.

 

Sure guard/heals in the right hands is powerful, but the fact that bad to average tank/heal is also OP is a L2P issue for the DPS. Given that DPS isn't going to have an epiphany anytime soon, BW should perhaps factor in the varying skill levels and increase the degree of difficulty for tanks to get that level of effectiveness. That way bad dps can still kill bad tank/healer combos and things will feel more fair. That adjustment wouldn't hurt ranked as they would just adapt and keep going. But maybe some of the godliness would be removed in regs. Especially if sorcs get a a little toned down as well.

 

Give guard a reasonably short to medium timer that turns it off and forces a reapply; bad tanks will let it run down and there will be gaps that healers can be killed in, even by accident. Ranked won't even notice the difference but regs will.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Rantank

[Floplag]

ROFL if you go to the GW2 PvP forums its the same as here. People unhappy with the current meta, the uselessness of Thief and Warrior, the bunker meta, the expansion fracked up PvP ect. That is one thing that the games have in common.

 

GW2 PvP is different better is a matter of opinion. It's a different style of PvP just like WS, you cant compare them because they are built differently. If you are having such a great time why are you here if I may ask? The CC never really bothered me, if it is a hang up for you then enjoy GW2 PvP while you still can. People instead of knocking games should be glad we are in an era where we have multiple MMOs that we can play and people can find which games style they enjoy the best, it hasnt always been that way in the MMO space.

 

Most players have played most if not all the recent and older MMOs on the market either when they launched or in beta ect. There is nothing that is capturing people. So you bounce around play what is fun till you are burnt out and then play something else, I for one am happy we live in a time with so many different choices.

If I was to play GW2 now for the first time it would have a different feel and if I'd never played anything like it I might thing it was the best thing since vajaj. WvWvW was awesome (minus the bugs at launch where armies would disappear lol) but that doesnt seem to be the case any longer with HoT as it seems the upgrade mechanic and new map arent that great.

 

That said people are blowing the guard mechanic out of portion. Yes it is strong but how come it is now a huge problem? What changed to make it such a large issue? The guard mechanic plus taunts are what make tanking in SWTOR unique and add flavor to the game, it is never going to be removed & it shouldn't be.

 

A better alternative is looking into what the exact issue is and making suggestions on how to tune it. And lol at guard turning people away from the game hyperbole. There are many reasons people stopped playing and went other places, guard is likely at the bottom of that list well behind CC. For instance like patch 1.2 pulling of RWZs and Solo RWZs (per the guild summit) the night before, the removal of RWZs in favor of arenas, lack of balance and content ect.

 

Yes, you have similar concerns in any game, but the difference is that no other game ive ever played allowed you to CC someone for as long as this one.

CC should matter, it should cost, it should be a decision to use it... not trivializes it and make it rotational as this game does.

Different style... perhaps, doesnt make the level of CC in this game tolerable or acceptable.

 

As for the meta... yes, but the difference there is that its been a couple months, not years... oh and the meta has changed just in the last month again so.... your argument is invalid... TOR has been the same for over a year... 3+ seasons now, thats not acceptable

[Coloneli]

Don't see problem with guard itself tbh. You can either separate them with push/pull,tank tunnel,go for someone else or just something. Be creative don't be like hey I hit this guarded healer for 2 min and nothing's dying guard must be OP.

[Iryel]

Personally I feel the only issue with guard its not dropped while you cc the "tank". Besides guard there are bigger fish to fry imo: jugg/grd dps combined with high survivability, sorc dmg/heals (no idea about sage tbh but I assume its the same), merc underwhelming atm in pvp in respect to survivability....

 

Again, it's how i feel atm and could be skill related however I find that when i'm by far an expert and end up as top dps on grd/jugg it's kinda weird shouldn't be so easy (and yes, multiple games or I wouldn't state it ). I don't think there's just 1 issue that needs to be addressed but multiple which makes it very difficult. Maybe back to drawing board would be best?!

[Storm-Cutter]

If you're trying to DPS through a guard, isn't it time to switch targets?

 

- and several DPS focusing 1 target is gonna burn through most things. - You can't repel that magnitude of firepower.

 

- But most DPS are there to pad their own numbers, - so teamwork and wolf-packing targets are unfortunately often disregarded.

[Selout]

I think most of you are missing the main point here. Guard isn't impossible to get around. It's boring to play, play with or against and thus the game suffers low low interest in PvP. Fix guard, and then the game is going in the right direction. Not perfect, but at least it's working toward a better future as opposed to the downward trajectory it seems to have in regards to skillful, fulfilling game play.

 

Guard is not the only causative factor here but it plays a huge part to the stagnation of team 4v4 q's. It's just flat out boring. PvP without guard is fast-paced, fun and dynamic. With guard people just leave. Is that the future you want for this game? The slow exsanguination of the PvP scene by maintaning the status quo?

 

As a contrast, even Blizzard got rid of prot-spec for arena due to it being not fun to play with or against. I am not suggesting that we should do away with guard. I am suggesting that some skill be added to the most powerful buff in the game. As it stands, tanks are far far too easy for way too much group utility. Make it at least somewhat skillful... please.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Selout

[DariusCalera]

I think most of you are missing the main point here. Guard isn't impossible to get around. It's boring to play, play with or against and thus the game suffers low low interest in PvP. Fix guard, and then the game is going in the right direction. Not perfect, but at least it's working toward a better future.

 

So what you're saying is that each and every WZ should be full of nothing but dps.

 

Without guard, there's no reason to have a tank in the WZ. With no tanks, the heals stop queuing because a good portion of the dps out there are so brain dead that they don't know how to peal for a healer. They just charge in and face tank and hope that the healer behind them can kite away from the two stealthers that opened up on them.

 

Of course it is these same dps that will complain about not getting any heals because the healer is too busy trying to stay alive their own self.

 

Getting rid of guard, or nerfing it to the point that it is inconsequential, would be the quickest way to drive off healers.

 

Guard is not the only causative factor here but it plays a huge part to the stagnation of team 4v4 q's. It's just flat out boring. PvP without guard is fast-paced, fun and dynamic. With guard people just leave. Is that the future you want for this game? The slow exsanguination of the PvP scene by maintaning the status quo?

 

4v4 stagnated because it is a terrible game design. WoW found this out the hard way and for some reason BW followed suit. All that game design did was highlight the deficiencies between the classes. It quickly became apparent which classes were viable in 4v4 and which weren't and it had nothing to do with guard.

 

Hell, some classes are ONLY viable if there is a tank in there to toss a guard on them to protect them from the initial burst.

Edited December 30, 2015 by DariusCalera

[Selout]

I added stuff to my previous post. I am not saying get rid of guard. Put at least a modicum of skill in it though. Where is the cooldown? Duration? Why does it persist through CC? Why is it infinitely swappable? Why is trauma debuff 20% but guard 50%? So many things wrong with the balancing of offensive vs defensive cooldown's in SWTOR.

 

And to the healer situation you bring up. I know the vast majority of healers haven't had to be any good due to how insanely good guard is. I watch "Apex" sorc healers and it makes me shutter. I can't name names, but lets just say they all stream on twitch... a lot. Their positioning, strat execution, communication are all at about the 2000 rating of WoW. That isn't worthy of "top tier" imo. So, they would have to adapt and evolve. If dmg is a main concern, then that would have to be tweaked too. With guard changes though, you are at least going down the path of making PvP less boring in a 4v4 environment.

 

It would be a process, with no one perfect fix. Any changes to guard and most likely, dmg would have to be tempered. I don't want guard gone or taunt either. It's that in it's current form, its far far too good and far far far too easy to utilize to the detriment of the overall game play experience.

 

Edit: WoW is an e-sport now with full on sponsorships that far surpasses anything prior to right now. I am not sure what game you are playing when you log in to WoW but that scene is doing just fine. Lol. SWTOR would be so lucky to have a thriving scene like that. Sadly, they won't with the apathy and lack of vision clung to by the masses who are content to just let the whole thing die for the sake of nostalgia. 4v4 is only a bad design because it means you have to have a tank/guard. That's it. WoW arena has done more for the evolution of MMO PvP than any other thing. It's actually crazy to think that people want open-world PvP and ranked WZ's still. Lol. If you can't even make the 4v4 experience fun and compelling, what hope would there be for PvP on a larger scale? Do you not remember how horrible pre-season 1 was with the rated WZ's? I do... it was 100x worse than now.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Selout

[DariusCalera]

I added stuff to my previous post. I am not saying get rid of guard. Put at least a modicum of skill in it though. Where is the cooldown? Duration? Why does it persist through CC? Why is it infinitely swappable? Why is trauma debuff 20% but guard 50%? So many things wrong with the balancing of offensive vs defensive cooldown's in SWTOR.

 

Have you seen a bad tank try to guard swap? More importantly, have you ever tried playing a tankpvp?

 

The bad tanks just toss their guard on their healer and only their healer even when that healer isn't being focused. They are also the ones that fail to notice that they moved out of range of their guarded target making said guard useless.

 

The good tanks aren't just tossing a guard on the healer and then forgetting about it. The good tanks are constantly moving their guard around to those on their team who are being focused. It might be the healer, or it might be the mara/sent that's tearing through the opposition.

 

I will even go out on a limb and say that being good at pvp tanking takes far more skill than it does to dps. Knowing who to put your guard on, when to move it, how to peal, and how to rotate your taunts takes a lot of time and effort to get down to the point where it is fluid.

 

That is probably one very good reason why you don't see many good tanks, or many tanks at all for that matter, because people don't want to take the time to actually learn how to do it.

[Selout]

I play a tank and dps in PvP. Sin tank and mara. Tanking is very easy. Not only do they do way too much dmg, whilst not even being a skank tank, guard swapping is mindless. I can tell you first hand that melee dps is MUCH harder lol. MUCH MUCH harder. What exactly do you think is hard about swapping guard to who they are training? /shrug

 

I would posit that a reason you don't see many tanks is because it is so god awfully boring and unchallenging in PvP. The ONLY time that I find it at all semi-challenging is when the other team tank-tunnels all game, but then you are no different than a dps. A dps with many more tools to survive. That is what really makes melee dps more challenging. You are in the fray but you constantly have to assess risk vs reward. When tanking, that constant situational assessment of your own HP bar, pulling your healer in to los to get cc'd, or defensive cool down management simply isn't as difficult due to how survivable you are. Mistakes aren't amplified as a tank like they are as a melee dps, outside of managing your guard.

 

As for the other qualities you listed, I would contest that dps capable of taunt should be able to manage them efficiently and all dps need to know how to peel. Those concepts are not tank-specific. The only thing that is specific to tanking is guard.

 

The purpose of my responses is to, hopefully, shift the conversation toward what I and many others believe ales PvP in this game we all like. Guard needs to have some skill infused in to it or toned down. It is simply too good and too simple to use effectively. It detracts from the fun-factor of those playing against or with guard in its current form.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Selout

[Jaggannath]

WoW is an e-sport now with full on sponsorships that far surpasses anything prior to right now. I am not sure what game you are playing when you log in to WoW but that scene is doing just fine. Lol.

 

To be honest it seems like you want a game where the dps role is easier and twitch based high burst pvp style is the order of the day. Healers are weak, tanks do less damage than dps and take 25% more damage in PVP along with having no strong CC/guard/survivability/pvp taunt - essentially rendering them useless in pvp. WoW does this style of pvp perfectly.

 

But that is not why WoW is a lot more financially successful.

 

Infact PvP, and even the past success of its pvp, has had very little to do with how WoW's pvp is. WoW's pvp is thriving because it's WoW, it has zero to do with anything else.

 

If they took SWTOR's pvp system and copied it exactly into their game, WoW's pvp scene will still thrive.

 

It has zero to do with how pvp is in WOW and everything to do with WoW being...well WoW.

 

But back to our point here, it seems to me like you simply do not like the style of PvP in SWTOR and want what WoW has. I think what you want, is WoW's pvp in a Star Wars setting. I think you should go back to WoW because that is exactly what you really like playing.

 

And if WoW's pvp system is so very perfect....what the hell are you doing here?

Edited December 31, 2015 by Jaggannath

[Jaggannath]

The purpose of my responses is to, hopefully, shift the conversation toward what I and many others believe ales PvP

 

What...others?

 

You seem to be the only one with this set of opinions I've come across here.

 

You want healers nerfed, tanks nerfed and dps buffed. You basically want a pvp meta where dps is king. I think this game isn't right for you to be honest if you find so much wrong with it.

[Selout]

Lol I play both. I'm the only one with these opinions? How about the OP amongst others here on the forums lol. I just offer more than complaints. I am articulating what the actual issue is and offering possible solutions without totally scrapping guard. I don't want dps buffed. I even said, if you read, in all likelihood if changes to guard went through, dps would have to be tempered.

 

You are in the minority here. How many countless threads are there asking for healing nerfs? I am in agreement with the op's main point that heals aren't really the issue. It's sorc heals with guard. Sorc heals by itself are fine. How is that even asking for a nerf to heals? It seems to me you are blindly coming to the defense of the status quo which is obviously not attracting or keeping people in the scene here.

 

Change is scary. I get it. Can anyone really argue that the current formula isn't successful? Why not try to save it while there is still some interest left? Your point of view is puzzling tbh.

 

Edit: Just re-read your response. It's clear you didn't even read anything I proposed lol. So much wrong with it? You mean one thing is so much wrong with it? Lol. Jesus.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Selout

[Jaggannath]

 

You are in the minority here.

 

How am I in the minority when pretty much nobody is asking for tanking nerfs?

 

Why are you playing this game if you think is WoW is perfect?

 

In the current expansion, WoW has probably the weakest its healers have ever been along with tanks that bring no CC/guard/Taunt for pvp along with doing less damage and taking (25%) more pvp damage than people rolling dps spec.

 

If you think this is perfect, then you don't really belong in SWTOR PvP. I ask you again, if you dislike SWTOR pvp so much and love WoW....what are you doing here?

[Selout]

You aren't even following the conversation. I never said WoW was perfect. I'm done responding to you. You are 1/2 reading then making assumptions on 1/2 the information.

 

P.S. Your assessment on WoW healing in arena is incorrect. Paladin heals are redic good. As good or better than shaman in Cata or MoP. Not sure what bracket you play in but over 2600 that's the way it is. Only super insane players like Starship, Minpojke, Absterge-caliber players make non-pally heals work with any sort of consistency. Even then it's with very specific comps whereas pally is almost plug & play with almost all comps.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Selout

[Moshijklmnopqrs]

I officialy have seen all types of healers now good ones bad ones ok ones. Ive been monitoring how they stay alive and what kills them flatt out and this is my conclusion

 

Good healers will stay up longer because of good CC timing and positioning

 

Average healers die with 1 dps attacking

 

Bad healers get walked on and spit on on the way to the turret

 

BUT!!! This all is meaningless because of *********** gaurd!!!

 

Regs wzs is filled with healers being peeled this is what is breaking pvp 2 healers both pealed its breaking pvp.

The damage is so low that they recieve it should be seen as a hack

 

My merc is able to 4 shot a healer 21k on heatseeker. Peeled? 10k the tank 2k damage this is what you guys are all complaining about healers are not the issue its the gaurd its should be removed from pvp it is being exploited!

 

Twitch.tv/mosh47

 

Come in channel so I can change your mind

[Jaggannath]

You aren't even following the conversation. I never said WoW was perfect. I'm done responding to you. You are 1/2 reading then making assumptions on 1/2 the information.

 

P.S. Your assessment on WoW healing in arena is incorrect. Paladin heals are redic good. As good or better than shaman in Cata or MoP. Not sure what bracket you play in but over 2600 that's the way it is. Only super insane players like Starship, Minpojke, Absterge-caliber players make non-pally heals work with any sort of consistency and even then it's with very specific comps.

 

You are pretty much dodging the questions here.

 

The way WoW pvp works, what you have been praising this entire time, is healing in general is weak and tank pvp is non-existent (despite the pvp sets having tank specific bonuses).

 

Now this thread is about tanks in pvp and you have been in here praising WoW's pvp in here.

 

Let me tell you how tank pvp works in WoW.

 

Tanks in WoW PvP do less damage than every dps spec. This would be expected and fine, except they also take 25% more damage than all other roles. This in additon to the fact that their survivability is primarily balanced around a mechanic called resolve which is activated via damage taken from PvE mobs, this does not activate with PvP damage.

 

Now I am not sure I have seen enough people complaining about tanks in SWTOR pvp for your kind to be considered to be majority. Infact, there are people on the WoW forums who praise this game's take on it.

 

And you're appreciating WoW's take on PvP in this thread to boot. A game that basically does not support tank pvp at all.

 

WoW does not support tank pvp if you carefully read their plans for the next expansion they plan not to. They don't think it will work for them.

 

Its a different game, a game that you like more than this one.

 

Why are you coming into this game asking them to change it to WoW?

 

If you like WoW and the way they do tanks (which is basically neuter them and keep them out of pvp), then go play WoW and stop complaining here.