(Revalation)Heals are not the problem tanks are

[metaldudie]

I officialy have seen all types of healers now good ones bad ones ok ones. Ive been monitoring how they stay alive and what kills them flatt out and this is my conclusion

 

Good healers will stay up longer because of good CC timing and positioning

 

Average healers die with 1 dps attacking

 

Bad healers get walked on and spit on on the way to the turret

 

BUT!!! This all is meaningless because of *********** gaurd!!!

 

Regs wzs is filled with healers being peeled this is what is breaking pvp 2 healers both pealed its breaking pvp.

The damage is so low that they recieve it should be seen as a hack

 

My merc is able to 4 shot a healer 21k on heatseeker. Peeled? 10k the tank 2k damage this is what you guys are all complaining about healers are not the issue its the gaurd its should be removed from pvp it is being exploited!

Edited December 28, 2015 by metaldudie

[Saikochoro]

I officialy have seen all types of healers now good ones bad ones ok ones. Ive been monitoring how they stay alive and what kills them flatt out and this is my conclusion

 

Good healers will stay up longer because of good CC timing and positioning

 

Average healers die with 1 dps attacking

 

Bad healers get walked on and spit on on the way to the turret

 

BUT!!! This all is meaningless because of *********** gaurd!!!

 

Regs wzs is filled with healers being peeled this is what is breaking pvp 2 healers both pealed its breaking pvp.

The damage is so low that they recieve it should be seen as a hack

 

My merc is able to 4 shot a healer 21k on heatseeker. Peeled? 10k the tank 2k damage this is what you guys are all complaining about healers are not the issue its the gaurd its should be removed from pvp it is being exploited!

 

Healers are not the problem. Sorc healers are.

[metaldudie]

We all know its sorc healers thats not the point mind you that pealed mercs and ops are nearly unkillable aswell its the gaurd it should be removed it has no place in pvp

[Jherad]

My merc is able to 4 shot a healer 21k on heatseeker.

 

I'm all for a bit of hyperbole, but no. No you can't. 21k HSM (or more) is fine, but you're not '4 shotting' a healer. Or anyone else who isn't wearing PVE gear for that matter.

 

You're not going to quickly kill *any* competent healer as a lone dps, no matter their class. With LOS, it can be practically impossible without at least one other. I'm open to the suggestion that the problem may be related to guard - but I doubt it, and arguments like this don't strengthen your case.

[metaldudie]

I'm all for a bit of hyperbole, but no. No you can't. 21k HSM (or more) is fine, but you're not '4 shotting' a healer. Or anyone else who isn't wearing PVE gear for that matter.

 

You're not going to quickly kill *any* competent healer as a lone dps, no matter their class. With LOS, it can be practically impossible without at least one other. I'm open to the suggestion that the problem may be related to guard - but I doubt it, and arguments like this don't strengthen your case.

 

Im sorry to say this but i do hit 21k on heatseeking missles and ok 4 shot yes to much but if i dont get focused than tracer is 7-8k than bolster hits for 6-7k blasting goes for alot dont know exactly than HS 21k thats alot of damage enough to make a healer sweat get a gaurd on that healer well boys party is over.

Edited December 28, 2015 by metaldudie

[Jherad]

Im sorry to say this but i do hit 21k on heatseeking missles and ok 4 shot yes to much but if i dont get focused than tracer is 7-8k than bolster hits for 6-7k blasting goes for alot dont know exactly than HS 21k thats alot of damage enough to make a healer sweat get a gaurd on that healer well boys party is over.

 

21k is actually on the low side for a buffed untaunted HSM crit on an unshielded sorc. But yeah, you're still not 4 shotting them. Autocrit requires prep, and you're fighting a PvPer, not a target dummy.

 

If your argument is that one DPS can make an unprepared healer run for LOS with a string of crits - then yeah. But that's a long shot from killing them. And a good healer will recover whilst also healing their team mates.

 

So I'm not really sure where you're going with that.

 

Guard makes it harder to kill healers - sure. But I still haven't heard how that means guard is the problem, and not sorc healing, or indeed sorc's ability to kite.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Jherad

[metaldudie]

21k is actually on the low side for a buffed untaunted HSM crit on an unshielded sorc. But yeah, you're still not 4 shotting them.

 

If your argument is that one DPS can make a healer run for LOS with a string of crits - then yeah. But that's a long shot from killing them. And a good healer will recover whilst also healing their team mates.

 

So I'm not really sure where you're going with that.

 

Guard makes it harder to kill healers - sure. But I still haven't heard how that means guard is the problem, and not sorc healing, or indeed sorc's ability to kite.

 

Because it isnt the healing thats the problem yeah i can stay alive aswell with a personal shield 25/7 and taking minimal damage from a source that should be hitting like a truck. Ofc i can outheal that and be godlike thats because of the gaurd i dont understand that people are not seeing this its so obvious a healer with out guard is easy for dps

[Saikochoro]

Because it isnt the healing thats the problem yeah i can stay alive aswell with a personal shield 25/7 and taking minimal damage from a source that should be hitting like a truck. Ofc i can outheal that and be godlike thats because of the gaurd i dont understand that people are not seeing this its so obvious a healer with out guard is easy for dps

 

Correction....a bad healer without guard is easy for a good dps. A good healer vs a good dps is a completely different story. Add guard in and it's even more stupid.

[foxmob]

I did a pretty conservative estimation of what you're doing when you finish with a 15k HIB and 20k Demo. It includes a minimum grav and priming and a full channel of unload. and you're looking (again, conservatively) in the 75k gross dmg.

 

full pvp gear is about 71k. so if a pvp geared healer (or anyone else) just stood there, you would kill him in 5 GCD + another 2s for the channel. obviously, nobody is going sit there an take all that dmg w/o even popping a cd. but there you have it. if you're dropping someone with less, he's both not geared and not conscious. or you're getting help.

 

:2cents:

 

regarding the actual topic of the thread, I think sorc/sage heals are too productive. I don't know what to think about tank mechanics b/c I don't play grp ranked, and judging their legitimacy in a reg is just silly since there's such random compositions. I can easily ferret out a good tank, and he becomes very obvious to me. but he's going to make a half decent healer look invincible simply because there's so little cooperation in regs and a random scattering of teammates.

[James_Mcturney]

Healers are not the problem. Sorc healers are.

This, on another threads i've stated how 50% damage absorption (plus 5% all damage reduction, which i bet is applied first), applied in a 100% passive way that can't be removed, other than breaking the 15 m range* will lead to broken classes getting even more broken in PvP.

 

That allied with the fact that, for example, in one of the few ranked matches that happened on my server (yolos, TEH) a juggernaut dps geared tank did around 75% of the total damage of the top dpses, which were all very near (he did 1.1kk, i did 1.5 with anihilation and my fellow 1.55 with madness). He only didn't outheal us because the other team had a bad tank and so their dps was low, because otherwise his focused defense would have done it. Therefore, i'm making a jugg tank! FO su, it's what i always dreamed in a mmo, all 3 roles into 1! The tank can heal and dps

I'm ok with the dps part, in fact, i love it, reminds me of lineage2 were tanks were very viable for pvp and could solo anyone, specially if they were in a few particular OP patches.

But 50% (after 5% reduction) is too big of a number for anything in a competitive game to be balanced, unless it can be easily countered, therefore, for this game, only movement speed buffs/reductions can be this high.

 

*Thought it was 30 m, phew...

 

observation: dear meatbags, don't try to say that the reasoning behind this is "yall were bad dpses" (on both sides of the 4v4) by coincidence, some of the players in that match play this game (N R gud at it) before you even were born**.

 

**jjk yes, they come from another dimension just to teach and then challenge us mortals.

 

regarding the actual topic of the thread, I think sorc/sage heals are too productive. I don't know what to think about tank mechanics b/c I don't play grp ranked, and judging their legitimacy in a reg is just silly since there's such random compositions. I can easily ferret out a good tank, and he becomes very obvious to me. but he's going to make a half decent healer look invincible simply because there's so little cooperation in regs and a random scattering of teammates.

 

and because guard is 50 freaking % of damage transfer + 5%dr... For a guy that says in his signature "dealing over 50% of a guys health..." i don't understand how you can't agree that 50% damage reduction (which would render your "50% of a guys health" to less than 25%, easily manageable by a healer) is not unbalanced and badly designed.

Edited December 28, 2015 by James_Mcturney

[foxmob]

and because guard is 50 freaking % of damage transfer + 5%dr... For a guy that says in his signature "dealing over 50% of a guys health..." i don't understand how you can't agree that 50% damage reduction (which would render your "50% of a guys health" to less than 25%, easily manageable by a healer) is not unbalanced and badly designed.

 

the issue of guard transferring 50% dmg has literally nothing to do with my signature other than they use the value of 50% and the word "damage."

[aristrokratie]

Guard is a very hot topic.

It is totally overpowered in regs, I normally have to los stuff or use my cc but with guard... Just sitting there pressing buttons.

 

The reason it's not been changed a while ago is ranked.

 

Sorcs currently are THE ONLY healers that can perform in arenas okay without guard. If guard was removed mercs and ops would be even more underpowered there so after a lot of whining they would be given the tools to heal arenas

 

What does this mean for regs? Yaay not only sorcheals running around but ops and mercs and they are all cancer to play against

Edited December 28, 2015 by aristrokratie

[Floplag]

I would argue that both need to be tuned down a bit, how neither is the problem with TOR PVP.

 

The game needs unique class role abilities to encourage diversity over mass pew pew wars... balancing them is key and also something the devs in this game have shown they really down understand.

 

That having been said, the largest problem in this game is its excessive CC.

 

Ive been playing elsewhere.. came back for a night or two and my gosh the amount of CC in this game is utterly horrendous and last FAR too long.

 

I've been playing GW2 lately, and people there complain about a CC lasting half a second... and they are right. Here, its 8 seconds or more in some cases with a myriad of hard and soft CCs combined with other movement impairing effects and a completely non-functioning resolve system.

 

I literally spent over half my time CC'd... after playing a game that isnt CC focused it was quite literally painful.

 

To me thats the biggest issue leaving this game near unplayable at this point.

[madtycoon]

Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR are entirely different combat systems.

 

SWTOR needs CC. It's like the only way to peel damage, stop guard swaps and healing. They've just gone overblown on instant CC. Can't counter instant crowd control.

 

It should be. I go to CC you. There's an indicator in the mechanic. You can then react to that indicator with an immunity, interrupt, line of sight or whatever else. You don't react, you get CCed. You have one break and a resolve bar to fall back on.

 

Design the indicators well and people can fake out immunities, wait them out and then land their CC. Reward awareness and quick decision making. Not their philosophy though.

 

On topic: The game would have been so much better without guard. Guard causes damage inflation on non-guarded targets. Skill level drops when tanks are in play. Room for error increased. At least 1/3rd of your toolset becomes useless in tank/healer matchups, because people don't need to kite to avoid damage. Then there's skank tanking and tanks abusing dps gear.

 

The only two things guard adds to the game is making tanks pvp viable, which isn't even a good thing, because it causes inbalances in non-tank/healer scenarios. And dps swapping off guard, which if guard was removed, damage could come down and dps would have to swap off defensives anyways. Makes it easier on backpedalers though.

Edited December 28, 2015 by madtycoon

[CrownofGold]

Yes, a tank guarding a healer makes for a fairly unstoppable combo. That is the point. Use your resources to separate them so that the guard is no longer effective. CC one and force push the other away or use some other ability to separate them. Can you knock one off of a platform or so that they are LOSing each other? A Mercs knock back can easily do this and once they are separated, mez one, hard stun the other and BURN BURN BURN.

 

What you need is coordination which they are utilizing via their tank/pocket healer combo. Create your own tactics. Should a single player be capable of burning down any healer that is guarded? Hell no. Other wise, why would anyone play healer or tank if a single player can burn through it?

 

Again, it just comes to coordination. Use what you have. This can be done.

[madtycoon]

Knockback separating guard is rarely a thing. It's a lot easier for the tank and healer to just reconnect then separating them with knockbacks. It's a lot more common and a lot easier to just kill through guard in that scenario with stun chains on the healer or just tunnel the tank and CC the healer. Knockbacks are usually wasted resolve on a healer unless you can like knock them off a bridge. It's not a real counter mechanic.

[metaldudie]

Yes, a tank guarding a healer makes for a fairly unstoppable combo. That is the point. Use your resources to separate them so that the guard is no longer effective. CC one and force push the other away or use some other ability to separate them. Can you knock one off of a platform or so that they are LOSing each other? A Mercs knock back can easily do this and once they are separated, mez one, hard stun the other and BURN BURN BURN.

 

What you need is coordination which they are utilizing via their tank/pocket healer combo. Create your own tactics. Should a single player be capable of burning down any healer that is guarded? Hell no. Other wise, why would anyone play healer or tank if a single player can burn through it?

 

Again, it just comes to coordination. Use what you have. This can be done.

 

With all the cc in the game this is an impossible strategy they just get back in reach

[Banderal]

Knockback separating guard is rarely a thing. It's a lot easier for the tank and healer to just reconnect then separating them with knockbacks. It's a lot more common and a lot easier to just kill through guard in that scenario with stun chains on the healer or just tunnel the tank and CC the healer. Knockbacks are usually wasted resolve on a healer unless you can like knock them off a bridge. It's not a real counter mechanic.

 

Guard works vertically. If you knock me off the catwalks in HB, for example, my guard is still working on the ball carrier up above me. Although, I haven't checked if the vertical distance is actually measured. Maybe that distance is < 15 still?

 

It also works through spawn doors. Just to give you people that want to kill my class more ammo.

 

And honestly, why all this hate for guard since late version 3? I don't remember hardly any anti-guard threads until relatively recently. The tank mechanic is probably the ONE thing in this game that hasn't changed since the start. Every other thing under the sun has been upped like crazy... more Cc, more speed, more Cc immunities, more damage, more healing, more health... but sure, none of that is the problem. It's all on guard.

 

Eh, whatever. I play a tank mostly, so I guess I'm biased.

[Scinald]

Guard works vertically. If you knock me off the catwalks in HB, for example, my guard is still working on the ball carrier up above me. Although, I haven't checked if the vertical distance is actually measured. Maybe that distance is < 15 still?

 

It also works through spawn doors. Just to give you people that want to kill my class more ammo.

 

And honestly, why all this hate for guard since late version 3? I don't remember hardly any anti-guard threads until relatively recently. The tank mechanic is probably the ONE thing in this game that hasn't changed since the start. Every other thing under the sun has been upped like crazy... more Cc, more speed, more Cc immunities, more damage, more healing, more health... but sure, none of that is the problem. It's all on guard.

 

Eh, whatever. I play a tank mostly, so I guess I'm biased.

 

Don't you know, tanks get blamed for everything?

 

Also, the general level of skill in PvP has declined so dramatically it is just silly which makes things like guard (a relatively unique mechanic) frustrating to bad/lazy/inexperienced players. By way of example, I was in a WZ the other day and somebody on my team was complaining about how it was unfair the other team was running a max gear premade. I (politely even) told the group that back in the good old days, PUGs could take one premades and win. Not all the time, but somewhere in the one-quarter to one-third range on a good evening. I was trying to inspire them and let them know it was possible. Hell, my greatest PvP memory was being in a PUG and beating a double premade.

 

The amount of verbal abuse I got thrown my way was crazy. Got called a liar and delusional. Was told to **** and all that. And that is how bad the player base is these days. They have no concept of how they can win against premades. No idea about how to switch objectives. No idea how to focus fire. No idea how to separate and CC classes. No idea how to break up healing blobs so you can pick them apart.

 

And so things like guard confuse them and they claim it is OP and unbeatable instead of trying to work around it. It is what it is. Maybe they will succeed in getting guard nerfed. Then they'll complain about how much damage is being done again or maybe they'll go after healing again. Who knows how their minds work.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Scinald

[aristrokratie]

The general problem with the PvP community is the following:

 

-Lack of experience (this is not bad, just the way it is, practice will grant you more experience and allow you to become better) but still complaining because ''I AM SMASH. I DIE SORCERER. WHY SORCERER NO DIE? HAX!''

 

-How can I express it politely... The more experienced players mostly act like a**holes towards unexperienced players.

This creates a shrinking community because the old players are tired of awful balance, no content... blah blah....

while most of the new players, starting to get into pvp just quit on it for getting yelled at for not guarding a node or not focusing the healer and so on

 

The problem in regs atm is not guard, it's not healing, it's not tanking. It is the very special mindset of the players.

Fotm is the main issue. I can count with my hands how many operative and merchealers I've seen this month in regs whilst in every warzone there's 2+ sorcheals.

 

 

 

The biggest failure of BioWare in PvP was to make the beginner specs, the ones that are easy to pick up VERY STRONG and overpowered. (AP Corruption)

 

An OP class that is difficult to play will never be as fotm as the straight forward ones. For sure many people will try out the op classes but soon quit on it when they realize that they suck at it. For healing with a sorc or dealing damage as a PT you need no skill, you can easily learn the basics of your class and outperform anyone else not completely superior skilled playing another class.

This creates a FOTM community that destroys itself from the inside out as everyone is tired of the fotm classes doing better than them, guess I'll try fotm, too... Leading to a complete destruction of any constructive form of pvp.

 

If we were to get 3 days of AP and corruption free pvp, trust me those warzones would be fun like hell.

Edited December 28, 2015 by aristrokratie

[metaldudie]

The general problem with the PvP community is the following:

 

-Lack of experience (this is not bad, just the way it is, practice will grant you more experience and allow you to become better) but still complaining because ''I AM SMASH. I DIE SORCERER. WHY SORCERER NO DIE? HAX!''

 

-How can I express it politely... The more experienced players mostly act like a**holes towards unexperienced players.

This creates a shrinking community because the old players are tired of awful balance, no content... blah blah....

while most of the new players, starting to get into pvp just quit on it for getting yelled at for not guarding a node or not focusing the healer and so on

 

The problem in regs atm is not guard, it's not healing, it's not tanking. It is the very special mindset of the players.

Fotm is the main issue. I can count with my hands how many operative and merchealers I've seen this month in regs whilst in every warzone there's 2+ sorcheals.

 

 

 

The biggest failure of BioWare in PvP was to make the beginner specs, the ones that are easy to pick up VERY STRONG and overpowered. (AP Corruption)

 

An OP class that is difficult to play will never be as fotm as the straight forward ones. For sure many people will try out the op classes but soon quit on it when they realize that they suck at it. For healing with a sorc or dealing damage as a PT you need no skill, you can easily learn the basics of your class and outperform anyone else not completely superior skilled playing another class.

This creates a FOTM community that destroys itself from the inside out as everyone is tired of the fotm classes doing better than them, guess I'll try fotm, too... Leading to a complete destruction of any constructive form of pvp.

 

If we were to get 3 days of AP and corruption free pvp, trust me those warzones would be fun like hell.

 

Uhm how about them sith/Jedi talking about smas your face on the keyboard and win class

[CriticalMom]

Are we actually have a discussion to remove guard from tanks that makes them a TANK in this game? I mean a tank in this game is to protect people with damage reduction and be the first one to take the heat, you remove something like guard from tank then good players that know how to focus would burn down a healer so fast the healers would cry for more buffs and more defensive protection..

 

There is a old saying that stays true in these days as well, "Be careful what you wish for"

 

I said my peace!

[DariusCalera]

The issue most certainly is not the guard mechanic. I will say that it does make killing healers, or guarded dps, harder but it is not impossible.

 

It just takes know what do to to counter act their advantages.

 

However, with that being said, putting guard on an over tuned class, whether dps or heals, is going to make that class even more of an issue. Before any discussion about nerfing guard actually takes place, the over performing classes need to be addressed first.

 

As for the OP, I have to agree with others in this thread that find your claim of 4 shotting healers a bit ridiculous. Yes, it can be done but more than likely those are terrible healers and even if they have a guard, killing them shouldn't be a problem.

 

Guard is not automatically going to make a terrible healer godlike, or even decent for that matter.

[Floplag]

Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR are entirely different combat systems.

 

SWTOR needs CC. It's like the only way to peel damage, stop guard swaps and healing. They've just gone overblown on instant CC. Can't counter instant crowd control.

 

It should be. I go to CC you. There's an indicator in the mechanic. You can then react to that indicator with an immunity, interrupt, line of sight or whatever else. You don't react, you get CCed. You have one break and a resolve bar to fall back on.

 

Design the indicators well and people can fake out immunities, wait them out and then land their CC. Reward awareness and quick decision making. Not their philosophy though.

 

On topic: The game would have been so much better without guard. Guard causes damage inflation on non-guarded targets. Skill level drops when tanks are in play. Room for error increased. At least 1/3rd of your toolset becomes useless in tank/healer matchups, because people don't need to kite to avoid damage. Then there's skank tanking and tanks abusing dps gear.

 

The only two things guard adds to the game is making tanks pvp viable, which isn't even a good thing, because it causes inbalances in non-tank/healer scenarios. And dps swapping off guard, which if guard was removed, damage could come down and dps would have to swap off defensives anyways. Makes it easier on backpedalers though.

 

Yes, they are different... GW2 way is better... and no game needs the amount of CC in TOR, none.

This game is balanced around it, its rotational, this is absurd in and of itself.

Instead of fixing and balancing skills, they give nothing but CC and immunity, its really gotten laughable.

[Selout]

I can't tell you how many good WoW arena, Tera arena and GW2 players have tried SWTOR (after me begging for them to try it) have been turned away by the absurd mechanic of guard. At least 20+ multi-gladiator, high ranked players. Sorry, but it is the main contributing factor in this game's inability to attract good players for PvP. Guard just doesn't belong in the game. Hell, even in PvE they realized it's too good and only made it threat. ROFL. It's only fun for the tank itself to play. In it's current form it doesn't even add complexity to the game play while tanking is by far the easiest archetype in the game to actually play.

 

Weather it's jugg defensive cooldowns, or sorc idiot-proof buttons, there are a whole host of issues with PvP balance in this game. The main offender is guard. This game will never be any good in PvP without changes to that mechanic. End of story.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Selout