Item Stack Resale Exploit

[PennyAnn]

People should state their opinions and feelings. What Bioware does is definitely driven by the majority of the player base, or should be.

 

People should state their opinions and feelings on subjects where those matter and affect what happens in the long run. When has that ever been the case with punishments they decide to employ in these situations? Can you name even ONE instance where a punishment suggested by a player on the forums was what they went with in terms of what they were going to do about people who exploit? If you can, I will stand corrected. Reread the rest of this thread first though, and see how many people are complaining about "lack of punishment" in previous episodes of this kind of stuff and know that nope.... they do not listen to what the players think they should do or else there wouldn't be complaining in almost every post about how the punishments were not enough in people's opinion. I don't see it accomplishing anything but making one group of players be ugly and hateful to another group of players. When you poison the well we all drink from, no one escapes the effects of that.

 

However, I think your second sentence couldn't be more wrong. Not because I think Bioware doesn't listen to players, but I certainly hope they don't listen to the "rip their hearts out and eat them for lunch" crowd that always comes in droves with ridiculous idea after ridiculous idea about what Bioware should do (and I still argue that they not only don't read post after post of venomous people calling for blood, but they recognize too that most of the suggestions are entirely ridiculous). In some cases, player feedback is helpful and should be listened to, but in this case it never has been and rightly so. Punishing players should be left to the developers, NOT the raging, hyperbolic masses... and thank all that is good that this seems to still be the case.

 

Edited to Add: Before people start jumping down my throat, I also believe that they have not handled these situations effectively in the past, because obviously they haven't really nipped these issues in the bud. Should the punishments be more severe? My opinion is yes, where it is appropriate (multiple proven offenses, etc.). But so should the development team's effort at squashing exploitable bugs BEFORE they are in the game for almost 2 months, and swifter moving responses when they inevitably DO make it into the game (because no one is perfect). It's a double edged sword, and both edges are too dull to be effectively used as a sword.

Edited December 9, 2015 by PennyAnn

[DarkLadyKeres]

As a programmer for well over over a decade, then a team lead for years after...then a project manager of a team, then a general manager of several teams....who has had and heard every excuse...who has hired and fired a whole lot of QA testers...who has been kept late, kept my team late, and who knows very well what a mission critical action item is?

 

Six weeks. Youtube videos. Multiple reports to Bioware. Simple bug. Easily reproducible.

 

But hehehe at your QA tester cred

 

Meh then you know simple fixes can break more than they fix... there's a reason why it took that long and I don't pretend to know why... but I hope you know it wasnt laziness or some other "IM OUTRAGED AND KNOW NOTHING OF GAME DEVELOPMENT" reason right?

[Spamfritter]

People should state their opinions and feelings on subjects where those matter and affect what happens in the long run. When has that ever been the case with punishments they decide to employ in these situations? Can you name even ONE instance where a punishment suggested by a player on the forums was what they went with in terms of what they were going to do about people who exploit? If you can, I will stand corrected. Reread the rest of this thread first though, and see how many people are complaining about "lack of punishment" in previous episodes of this kind of stuff and know that nope.... they do not listen to what the players think they should do or else there wouldn't be complaining in almost every post about how the punishments were not enough in people's opinion. I don't see it accomplishing anything but making one group of players be ugly and hateful to another group of players. When you poison the well we all drink from, no one escapes the effects of that.

 

However, I think your second sentence couldn't be more wrong. Not because I think Bioware doesn't listen to players, but I certainly hope they don't listen to the "rip their hearts out and eat them for lunch" crowd that always comes in droves with ridiculous idea after ridiculous idea about what Bioware should do (and I still argue that they not only don't read post after post of venomous people calling for blood, but they recognize too that most of the suggestions are entirely ridiculous). In some cases, player feedback is helpful and should be listened to, but in this case it never has been and rightly so. Punishing players should be left to the developers, NOT the raging, hyperbolic masses... and thank all that is good that this seems to still be the case.

 

Punishment is the only thing that BioWare takes their time on. It can / has a direct impact on their bottom line. Banning loyal, long time subscribers who are a source of revenue isn't something they take lightly. Nor should they. Gamer's have been exploiting bugs in games since the medium began. The fact that BioWare takes no responsbility for these exploits only further compounds the problem. If they react with a scorched earth policy the way several people in this thread wanted them to it could do more harm than good. Especially in cases where a huge portion of the player base is guilty of using the exploit. BioWare must weigh the severity of the offense, how many times each offender has offended, and decide how to proceed in a way which discourages the behavior without alienating people (and losing money) unnecessarily.

[Spamfritter]

Meh then you know simple fixes can break more than they fix... there's a reason why it took that long and I don't pretend to know why... but I hope you know it wasnt laziness or some other "IM OUTRAGED AND KNOW NOTHING OF GAME DEVELOPMENT" reason right?

 

I've seen bugs and security vulnerabilities patched in complex applications and operating systems in a third of the time it took BioWare to make decorations bind on pickup, and prevent you from shift+clicking on companion gifts / decorations and buying more than one at a time.

 

While simple fixes sometimes have intended consequences you can't honestly tell me that this fix was likely to be one of those.

[Morrolan]

Hey folks,

 

As of today’s patch, we fixed the following bug: It is no longer possible to purchase a stack of items and resell individual items for the price of the entire stack.

 

In a previous exploit, we were very up front and very public about its existence. We raised warnings as soon as we discovered the issue associated with the Temple Chair, with the hopes our players would not use it. What we discovered, were many players using a variety of ways to try and mask what they were doing and who they were. So, this time, we returned to removing visibility until we resolved it.

-eric

 

Thats fine but 6 weeks to resolve it!!

 

I hope at the very least all companion influence for the exploiters is reset back to the base level for ALL of their companions, as well as suspensions. Plus removal of other gains, this has to be the minimum punishment. Just suspension isn't enough considering they can use companions with max influence in the future to their advantage if influence isn't rolled back.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Morrolan

[clearsighted]

So long as people can keep using free accounts, routers and the GTN to launder their exploited credits, those who profited the most will undoubtedly escape punishment.

[DarkLadyKeres]

I've seen bugs and security vulnerabilities patched in complex applications and operating systems in a third of the time it took BioWare to make decorations bind on pickup, and prevent you from shift+clicking on companion gifts / decorations and buying more than one at a time.

 

While simple fixes sometimes have intended consequences you can't honestly tell me that this fix was likely to be one of those.

 

And you cant tell me you dont think there was a reason for it taking this long. They tried things, it didnt work, it bounced back and forth because SOMEHOW it broke the entire GTN or made people lose items... something like that... but please dont join the "HIT THE FIX BUTTON NAO" crowd... you know it doesnt work that way.

[ryoutou]

Meh then you know simple fixes can break more than they fix... there's a reason why it took that long and I don't pretend to know why... but I hope you know it wasnt laziness or some other "IM OUTRAGED AND KNOW NOTHING OF GAME DEVELOPMENT" reason right?

 

You just wanted to tell us you were a QA guy

 

It was was a manager who didn't prioritize it. I worked in the field long enough to reckon my read is as good as anyone elses here, certainly including yours.

 

A little sad at how soup sandwich it is these last few weeks - but outraged? I'm retired, mostly. Thats fun

 

The whole thing is funny in a Catch-22 sort of way.

[jsibz]

People should state their opinions and feelings on subjects where those matter and affect what happens in the long run. When has that ever been the case with punishments they decide to employ in these situations? Can you name even ONE instance where a punishment suggested by a player on the forums was what they went with in terms of what they were going to do about people who exploit? If you can, I will stand corrected. Reread the rest of this thread first though, and see how many people are complaining about "lack of punishment" in previous episodes of this kind of stuff and know that nope.... they do not listen to what the players think they should do or else there wouldn't be complaining in almost every post about how the punishments were not enough in people's opinion. I don't see it accomplishing anything but making one group of players be ugly and hateful to another group of players. When you poison the well we all drink from, no one escapes the effects of that.

 

However, I think your second sentence couldn't be more wrong. Not because I think Bioware doesn't listen to players, but I certainly hope they don't listen to the "rip their hearts out and eat them for lunch" crowd that always comes in droves with ridiculous idea after ridiculous idea about what Bioware should do (and I still argue that they not only don't read post after post of venomous people calling for blood, but they recognize too that most of the suggestions are entirely ridiculous). In some cases, player feedback is helpful and should be listened to, but in this case it never has been and rightly so. Punishing players should be left to the developers, NOT the raging, hyperbolic masses... and thank all that is good that this seems to still be the case.

 

Edited to Add: Before people start jumping down my throat, I also believe that they have not handled these situations effectively in the past, because obviously they haven't really nipped these issues in the bud. Should the punishments be more severe? My opinion is yes, where it is appropriate (multiple proven offenses, etc.). But so should the development team's effort at squashing exploitable bugs BEFORE they are in the game for almost 2 months, and swifter moving responses when they inevitably DO make it into the game (because no one is perfect). It's a double edged sword, and both edges are too dull to be effectively used as a sword.

 

 

Who knows what they base their judgements on. You are assuming that the outrage of players is a deterrent to the punishment of those guilty when in fact it might be the reason as to why it is enacted. If no one cared then what would be the point in doing anything? There is no satisfaction in working towards a goal when someone else can get there instantly cheating. Everyone who pays for the game has an opinion that matters. Yes its a logical assumption that the majority will be heard the loudest but even so voicing your opinion is in no way poison.

[PennyAnn]

Punishment is the only thing that BioWare takes their time on. It can / has a direct impact on their bottom line. Banning loyal, long time subscribers who are a source of revenue isn't something they take lightly. Nor should they. Gamer's have been exploiting bugs in games since the medium began. The fact that BioWare takes no responsbility for these exploits only further compounds the problem. If they react with a scorched earth policy the way several people in this thread wanted them to it could do more harm than good. Especially in cases where a huge portion of the player base is guilty of using the exploit. BioWare must weigh the severity of the offense, how many times each offender has offended, and decide how to proceed in a way which discourages the behavior without alienating people (and losing money) unnecessarily.

 

I agree with this post entirely, and it actually points to the reason I posted in the first place. It's Bioware's decision and the people typing in large font/bold type that exploiters should all be forced to rot in hell isn't doing anyone any good and should probably, for the good of the community, just not happen since they don't affect the outcome anyway.

[PennyAnn]

Who knows what they base their judgements on. You are assuming that the outrage of players is a deterrent to the punishment of those guilty when in fact it might be the reason as to why it is enacted. If no one cared then what would be the point in doing anything? There is no satisfaction in working towards a goal when someone else can get there instantly cheating. Everyone who pays for the game has an opinion that matters. Yes its a logical assumption that the majority will be heard the loudest but even so voicing your opinion is in no way poison.

 

I know that looking at the amount of people who feel all previous exploits were handled too lightly that it's safe to assume that it is not based on player feedback, because the same feedback is given every time and is not followed by Bioware. To that end, continuing to post clamoring for people to be branded with non-removable "cheater" titles, locked in stockades on the fleet, stripped of everything they've earned in the game (legitimately) as punishment for what was gained illegitimately, perma-banned in every and all instances, etc. is not helpful and is the very example of voicing your opinion being poisonous to the community as a whole. It's a negative vibe where there are enough of those and doesn't matter in the end as it does not determine the outcome or what Bioware will/won't do about this. Voicing a poisonous opinion is absolutely poisonous.

 

I agree that players who care about the game and want it to be fair should have it that way, but a punishment that doesn't fit the "crime" isn't any more fair than cheating in the first place. Let Bioware decide and move on without having to add to the vitriol. That's all I'm really trying to say.

Edited December 9, 2015 by PennyAnn

[Gnaarl]

Ok I understand that folks should be punished for using this exploit. That goes without saying. However, the real question is..."Why did it take so long for the devs to fix this??" 6 weeks?? really??...After the amount of time that has passed, the damage is irreparable and bans will not fix it. If anything, it will do more harm to the game than good. With all due respect...the devs messed this one up by not fixing the issue earlier. I do like the idea someone had commented in an earlier post to give them all a "Cheater" title that can not be removed and restrict their abilities and access to FP/Ops/GTN for 60 or 90 days along with removal of gained influence/credits...etc. That would be more punishment than a ban (where folks can simply make another account and do it again). Once again....no disrespect to the team at BW and the devs, I know your plates are full.

 

Just my 2creds

MAY THE FORCE GUIDE AND ALWAYS BE WITH YOU!

[Spamfritter]

Ok I understand that folks should be punished for using this exploit. That goes without saying. However, the real question is..."Why did it take so long for the devs to fix this??" 6 weeks?? really??...After the amount of time that has passed, the damage is irreparable and bans will not fix it. If anything, it will do more harm to the game than good. With all due respect...the devs messed this one up by not fixing the issue earlier. I do like the idea someone had commented in an earlier post to give them all a "Cheater" title that can not be removed and restrict their abilities and access to FP/Ops/GTN for 60 or 90 days along with removal of gained influence/credits...etc. That would be more punishment than a ban (where folks can simply make another account and do it again). Once again....no disrespect to the team at BW and the devs, I know your plates are full.

 

Just my 2creds

MAY THE FORCE GUIDE AND ALWAYS BE WITH YOU!

 

The problem is, that if you restrict their ability to do operations, flashpoints or use the GTN they may just say **** it and unsubscribe until the penalty was over, perhaps forever. As an example, I'm primarily a progression raider above all else. Without operations I'd have little to nothing to do in this game. Raid teams would have no choice but to replace anyone player that had to be absent for that long. It wouldn't be fair for them to have to wait on anyone that long.

[jsibz]

I know that looking at the amount of people who feel all previous exploits were handled too lightly that it's safe to assume that it is not based on player feedback, because the same feedback is given every time and is not followed by Bioware. To that end, continuing to post clamoring for people to be branded with non-removable "cheater" titles, locked in stockades on the fleet, stripped of everything they've earned in the game (legitimately) as punishment for what was gained illegitimately, perma-banned in every and all instances, etc. is not helpful and is the very example of voicing your opinion being poisonous to the community as a whole. It's a negative vibe where there are enough of those and doesn't matter in the end as it does not determine the outcome or what Bioware will/won't do about this. Voicing a poisonous opinion is absolutely poisonous.

 

I agree that players who care about the game and want it to be fair should have it that way, but a punishment that doesn't fit the "crime" isn't any more fair than cheating in the first place. Let Bioware decide and move on without having to add to the vitriol. That's all I'm really trying to say.

 

We just don't agree but I see what you are saying. My opinion is that there is a correlation between the outrage of the player base and the punishment shown. I think that those exploiting should be perma banned and I'm glad that Bioware has stated that as an option for those offenders. What you consider poisonous others may consider fair.

[Gyronamics]

Tell me more about how a ban does anything to deter the billions sold to and generated by credit sellers while thumbs were twiddled.

 

Hurr durr, lets ban some people anyway, shows we are taking action!

 

Nevermind it being our coding teams incompetence.

 

I have no guilty conscience because I heard about it far too late to take any action.

 

Otherwise y'know with the PVE update telling us it's going to hell in a handcart I would have been sorely tempted to make bank and cash out of this game for pastures new or getting a life instead of putting vast amounts of time and a sub into this.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Gyronamics

[DarkLadyKeres]

You just wanted to tell us you were a QA guy

 

It was was a manager who didn't prioritize it. I worked in the field long enough to reckon my read is as good as anyone elses here, certainly including yours.

 

A little sad at how soup sandwich it is these last few weeks - but outraged? I'm retired, mostly. Thats fun

 

The whole thing is funny in a Catch-22 sort of way.

 

An exploit like that, its unlikely this wasnt bumped up... a lot...

 

Ive worked in the field long enough too but I also know that six weeks isnt that long to get a fix in that works... also people dont get that the patches for at least the NEXT two weeks are set in stone and are just being tested with fixes going in only for major (Like 100% crash) bugs so in reality this was probably fixed MORE than two weeks ago but not pushed to the live branch yet...

 

Again im gonna stand with the Devs on this one because they know a lot more about how games work than the 17 pages of "PRESS THE FIX NOW BUTTON SOONER" in this thread...

[DarkLadyKeres]

Nevermind it being our coding teams incompetence.

 

Id like to know what you know of coding games?

 

How about game release? (including patches)

 

can you write a bug even?

Edited December 9, 2015 by DarkLadyKeres

[Gyronamics]

Id like to know what you know of coding games?

 

How about game release? (including patches)

 

can you write a bug even?

 

I'd like you to know how much I care about what you think and how much I'd like to talk trash with you as some kind of developer surrogate but I'm busy talking trash with someone else in a different game and I'm afraid you're at the bottom of a priority list after that which includes scratching my *** and sleeping.

[DarkLadyKeres]

I'd like you to know how much I care about what you think and how much I'd like to talk trash with you as some kind of developer surrogate but I'm busy talking trash with someone else in a different game and I'm afraid you're at the bottom of a priority list after that which includes scratching my *** and sleeping.

 

Nah im just tired of people acting like they know ****, can point out incompetence, can point out how things should have been done in 5 minutes and yet have absolutely no knowledge of what they are talking about... but no, keep going... Maybe you can point out how much you know of Quantum Physics next and then give **** to actual physicists for not having invented time travel yet...

[PennyAnn]

We just don't agree but I see what you are saying. My opinion is that there is a correlation between the outrage of the player base and the punishment shown. I think that those exploiting should be perma banned and I'm glad that Bioware has stated that as an option for those offenders. What you consider poisonous others may consider fair.

 

We don't have to agree, and we can still co-exist without the need to flame each other or fight over it. I'm totally okay with that.

 

I actually do agree that outrage is what leads them to do anything about exploits and is potentially part of the reason it was fixed now rather than weeks ago when it was discovered. Putting their feet to the flames and forcing them to act comes from making these things public. When it's made public they HAVE do something about it and then post and give punishments. That's all well and good, making something public like this and forcing them to act is a good thing for the game overall, it's just HOW people post about it that I take issues with.

 

At the end of the day, we're all players in this community and should do our best to be swift, fair, and equitable without bashing each other or ramping up the crazy on the forums whenever we can.

[Spamfritter]

And you cant tell me you dont think there was a reason for it taking this long. They tried things, it didnt work, it bounced back and forth because SOMEHOW it broke the entire GTN or made people lose items... something like that... but please dont join the "HIT THE FIX BUTTON NAO" crowd... you know it doesnt work that way.

 

If this were one instance then maybe I could give BioWare the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately EVERY exploit that we've seen post 3.0 has taken forever to fix. The Ravagers exploit was around 4 weeks or more when 3.0 went live. The issue had been reported in the closed beta even before that. I'm sorry but the inability to resolve exploits and other bugs in this game has reached levels that are hard to fathom.

[DarkLadyKeres]

If this were one instance then maybe I could give BioWare the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately EVERY exploit that we've seen post 3.0 has taken forever to fix. The Ravagers exploit was around 4 weeks or more when 3.0 went live. The issue had been reported in the closed beta even before that. I'm sorry but the inability to resolve exploits and other bugs in this game has reached levels that are hard to fathom.

 

again 4 weeks isnt a long turnaround time for a fix... neither is 6 really... depending on what was going on behind the scenes when they tried to fix it... it might seem simple to people but people dont get that fixing one thing has the huge potential of breaking something else... whats the point in fixing an exploit if it opens another? It needs to be tested and it cant get fixed and pushed live right away... they have to test around it and test a lot of things to make sure these things aren't going to break... thats not something that can be done in a few hours...

[Pagy]

"loss of companion affection"

 

i cant stop laughing

 

this will be like ravagers...they will punish like 3 people randomly on each server and ignore 99% of exploiters.

[Spamfritter]

again 4 weeks isnt a long turnaround time for a fix... neither is 6 really... depending on what was going on behind the scenes when they tried to fix it... it might seem simple to people but people dont get that fixing one thing has the huge potential of breaking something else... whats the point in fixing an exploit if it opens another? It needs to be tested and it cant get fixed and pushed live right away... they have to test around it and test a lot of things to make sure these things aren't going to break... thats not something that can be done in a few hours...

 

I didn't say it was. Again the fix for this was done with two changes. 1.) Make decorations from reputation vendors bind on pickup. 2.) Make it so you can't shift+click (buy multiple copies at once) of things like companion gifts. I've seen far more addressed in games in far less time than six weeks. We aren't talking about something as broken as Arkham Knight for the PC.

[PennyAnn]

I didn't say it was. Again the fix for this was done with two changes. 1.) Make decorations from reputation vendors bind on pickup. 2.) Make it so you can't shift+click (buy multiple copies at once) of things like companion gifts. I've seen far more addressed in games in far less time than six weeks. We aren't talking about something as broken as Arkham Knight for the PC.

 

Actually, the only thing necessary to fix it was to remove the resale timer. Problem solved. You can't resell it, you can't exploit it. That's why Cartel Certificates weren't in the list of currencies that could have been exploited with this method.

 

Remove one flag from stronghold decorations sold by vendors = 6 weeks? I don't care if you do this for a living or not, that can't be the truth.