Doesn't it scare you how uninnovative the game is?

[Zenning]

Exactly. Voice over isn't innovative. Nor is "story." The melding of it into an MMO is "new" but it can hardly be called innovative, any more than giving you lightsabers instead of swords can be called innovative. It's just a different way of accomplishing exactly the same thing.

 

And the people who keep saying other MMO's don't have stories-- you seriously need to learn to read. Don't blame the devs because you have attention deficit disorder and won't read a dialogue box. Play LoTRO and tell me that game doesn't have a story. There's no difference between a dialogue box in WoW and a voice over in TOR except TOR is the only game that assumes you're need it read to you rather than being able to read it yourself.

 

The voice over has such a short shelf-life. I've already been in groups where 3 out of 4 people want to skip all dialogue because they've already seen it half a dozen times or they're just tired of it.

 

Okay, this is better. Here's the thing, innovation isn't just finding brand new things, it's making old things work in different ways. Adding story, and narrative, to the game is innovation, because until now, it was never really a real part of the game. It was always an after thought.

 

The fact that so many people are playing this game for the narrative and story alone, and that if you're in a group the majority of people don't skip the cutscenes, shows that it is working, despite what you might think.

[Zenning]

No, innovative is usually something very new and different and not done before, that's done in way that works well. None of what that guy said fits that criteria.

 

This isn't completely true. Innovation can easily be something that is introduced into a system, genre, piece of art that wasn't there before. Often in fact, whether it's in technology or in art and media, it's the reapplication of previous techniques to new fields that make new advances, and rarely something completely different.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Zenning

[Mannic]

The fact that so many people are playing this game for the narrative and story alone, and that if you're in a group the majority of people don't skip the cutscenes, shows that it is working, despite what you might think.

 

It is working. For now. I give it another 30 days to 6 weeks before even the story-fanboys start to get burned out on it. The only people who won't be sick of it will be people who play less than 20 hours a week and just haven't gotten very far yet. They'll start to get burned out on it in 3 months.

 

Dial up this thread 6 months from now and tell me if you think it was enough to differentiate TOR from the competition.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Mannic

[Satpolpp]

I think the problem lies in the FUTURE of the game, not its current format. Running the same dungeons over and over obviously you know what the convos are, and like a broken old tape, u just want to get it out of the way and go on doing your business.

 

Lets revisit this issue in a couple of months time when most people have at least done some FPs a few times.

[Zenning]

It is working. For now. I give it another 30 days to 6 weeks before even the story-fanboys start to get burned out on it.

 

Dial up this thread 6 months from now and tell me if you think it was enough to differentiate TOR from the competition.

 

Not having end game, doesn't mean that the game has no innovation.

[Tembian]

This is a very cookie cutter traditional mmorpg. It's got some pretty stuff built around that core, but it's still a traditional mmorpg through and through. End game content will require X tanks, Y healers, Z dps. PvP will be a grindfest for PvP gear. Gold/commendations will come in the form of tedious daily quests (space missions). Doesn't this scare anyone else?

 

What will end game offer that other mmos current do not offer?

 

nope it doesnt scare me at all, if anything it gives me a save feeling

[Aeneus]

Exactly. Voice over isn't innovative. Nor is "story." The melding of it into an MMO isn't even "new" so it can hardly be called innovative, any more than giving you lightsabers instead of swords can be called innovative. It's just a different way of accomplishing exactly the same thing.

 

And the people who keep saying other MMO's don't have stories-- you seriously need to learn to read. Don't blame the devs because you have attention deficit disorder and won't read a dialogue box. Play LoTRO and tell me that game doesn't have a story. There's no difference between a dialogue box in WoW and a voice over in TOR except TOR is the only game that assumes you need it read to you rather than being able to read it yourself.

 

The voice over has such a short shelf-life. I've already been in groups where 3 out of 4 people want to skip all dialogue because they've already seen it half a dozen times or they're just tired of it.

 

 

Really, no difference between text boxes in WoW and the voice-overs here? Yeah, story in LOTRO and WoW is no different than ToR except for the voice over's right? Tell me, how many lines of dialogue do your characters have in those games? Oh, that's right, none. All your character is in those games is a walking mannequin to hold your gear. Yeah, theres a story in those games, but no one cares about it because they're not a part of it. You do all of the same damn quests that every other player does and the only thing that separates you from everyone else is a different hair cut.

 

It's not the fact that the story in this game is voiced over that makes a difference, its the fact that for the first time your character actually has something to contribute to it.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Aeneus

[Zachajariah]

Flashpoints are f***ing amazing man. It's FULLY voiced. Those two things right there are HUGE.

 

Dude I did my first one last night. I'm not really a PvE player anymore but I'm HOOKED!

 

I agree to the responses; if it's not innovative enough for you, then post ideas! This and this only will help bioware know what to implement nothing at all wrong with constructive critism!

 

The truth is, though, the OP is somewhat correct. The dungeon voice overs will get boring after the first few times. How do you solve this problem? New content? More open world stuff like live events would be innovative, like GW2. What else is there to add? I mean the general idea of any game is: get quest > kill stuff / meet quest requirement > turn in quest > profit. What else CAN you do?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Zachajariah

[Mannic]

Really, no difference between text boxes in WoW and the voice-overs here? Yeah, story in LOTRO and WoW is no different than ToR except for the voice over's right? Tell me, how many lines of dialogue do your characters have in those games? Oh, that's right, none. All your character is in those games is a walking mannequin to hold your gear. Yeah, theres a story in those games, but no one cares about it because they're not a part of it. You do all of the same damn quests that every other player does and the only thing that separates you from everyone else is a different hair cut.

 

It's not the fact that the story in this game is voiced over that makes a difference, its the fact that for the first time your character actually has something to contribute to it.

 

Yes and all that is very novel. In fact, I think "novel" is a better word than "innovative." Star Wars is a very novel game, but novelty doesn't last very long.

 

Take out the novelty, and there's nothing at all innovative about TOR. Warhammer had RvR zones and introduced public quests. LoTRO had PvE scenarios and trainable companions where you chose how they trained up, as well as instanced story-based content similar to TOR's and classes that specialized in group combo abilities. Rift had an innovative class system and took Warhammer's public quests to an entirely new level of dynamic content.

 

TOR has... novelty. They took WoW's progression system almost word for word, and then attached voice over to it. And an innovative way of using companions to take some of the tedium out of crafting, but that is stacked onto a crafting system that, in itself, isn't at all novel or innovative.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Mannic

[Rotant]

It scares me that such a trivial thing might scare you, because at some point my mesolimbic system / amygdala might respond to such a pathetic stimulus in a similar way. It's such a shame that you're my conspecific.

[Maxlord]

I keep seeing posts from people saying the game will fail because it isn't "Innovative" - and to this very day, i don't get how they can even say this.

 

No, I am not saying it's innovative at all. What I AM saying is that despite many cries for "We want new and better" from gamers - what do they all do?

 

The go back time and again to the "tried and true" games they've always played.

 

That's WoW's appeal - they didn't reinvent the wheel, they refined it. Every system in WoW can be found in other games - and that's the secret. They knew people wanted the SAME games they were already playing, just repackaged in a different format.

 

Their feeling is/was "So what if gamers jump to other MMOs for a while - they'll be back for the comfort level we offer"

 

Bioware has done the same thing. Problem is, if the "Comfort" game is already here in WoW - can SWTOR sway enough people to stay comfie here?

[Zenning]

Yes and all that is very novel. In fact, I think "novel" is a better word than "innovative." Star Wars is a very novel game, but novelty doesn't last very long.

 

 

Why is it so hard to see, that it can easily be innovative without affecting the endgame? I mean, Tabula Rasa had no good end game, but nobodies gonna say that wasn't innovative.

 

The fact is, you choose to ignore the most innovative part of this game, because it contradicts your opinion.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Zenning

[Mannic]

I keep seeing posts from people saying the game will fail because it isn't "Innovative" - and to this very day, i don't get how they can even say this.

 

No, I am not saying it's innovative at all. What I AM saying is that despite many cries for "We want new and better" from gamers - what do they all do?

 

The go back time and again to the "tried and true" games they've always played.

 

That's WoW's appeal - they didn't reinvent the wheel, they refined it. Every system in WoW can be found in other games - and that's the secret. They knew people wanted the SAME games they were already playing, just repackaged in a different format.

 

Their feeling is/was "So what if gamers jump to other MMOs for a while - they'll be back for the comfort level we offer"

 

Bioware has done the same thing. Problem is, if the "Comfort" game is already here in WoW - can SWTOR sway enough people to stay comfie here?

 

They go back to WoW because why would they waste all the time they've already spent progressing in WoW and forming relationships with people in WoW and levelling atls in WoW and being in a guild in WoW, to play another game that's virtually just like WoW?

 

People don't leave one game to play another that's virtually the same. Games like Warhammer and LoTRO both got smashed by the "wow-clone" hammer and those games were both far more differentiated than TOR is.

[Mannic]

Why is it so hard to see, that it can easily be innovative without affecting the endgame? I mean, Tabula Rasa had no good end game, but nobodies gonna say that wasn't innovative.

 

The fact is, you choose to ignore the most innovative part of this game, because it contradicts your opinion.

 

What part of the game is innovative? The voice over? No! Other MMO's have had voice over and cut-scenes. Simply making your entire game with voice over doesn't make the game innovative.

[CupieFoxtail]

If you like something because it is different and not just because it is good, you are a hipster

I HATE hipsters

Sitting in their coffee shops in seattle typing on their macbooks with their thick rimmed glasses and letter carrier bags...

Intense refinement of existing elements is very good, which is why this game has an 88 on metacritic and hellgate london is now entirely defunct

 

Hellgate London innovated, but that did not make it a good mmo by anyone's standards

[Zenning]

What part of the game is innovative? The voice over? No! Other MMO's have had voice over and cut-scenes. Simply making your entire game with voice over doesn't make the game innovative.

 

No the voice over is part of the Narrative. The fact that the entire game has a strong story and narrative is innovative. If you're gonna tell me that in LOTRO, Warhammer, or WoW, story and narrative actually felt like it mattered while you killed mobs, I'll be ready to call you a liar.

 

If you can't see why making story and narrative a component that actually matters in the game is innovative, then I'm guess it's because you just refuse to see it.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Zenning

[MobsDeep]

UO tried the different route. No levels or "classes". Consequences for being a bad player and dying. Most players were not mentally mature enough to handle dying and what not so they left. EVE is/was different but again, you might die so people stay away. You deviate from the plan and the masses won't play. Irrelevant death (psst, it's not real) in a video game is more than most can handle. Just look at what happens when the DPS don't know their class and pull aggro and die. They cry about the tank failing ,you know cause again....irrelevant death in a video game is serious business. I'm glad I'm not that mentally frail.

 

UO tried a different route? UO was one of the first, there was no other route to take but what they wanted to do and they had nothing really on the market to compare themselves too.. what are you talking about? Do you even know? Also Eve is actually growing rapidly and maintains one of the best reputations for player retention. CCP is looked at by other MMO devs as more or less geniuses. You just like type stuff don't you?

[Maxlord]

They go back to WoW because why would they waste all the time they've already spent progressing in WoW and forming relationships with people in WoW and levelling atls in WoW and being in a guild in WoW, to play another game that's virtually just like WoW?

 

People don't leave one game to play another that's virtually the same. Games like Warhammer and LoTRO both got smashed by the "wow-clone" hammer and those games were both far more differentiated than TOR is.

 

That's exactly my point. It's not about 'Innovation", it's about "Comfort".

 

For SWTOR to move beyond what it is, it needs to set itself apart in some way aside from voiceovers - otherwise it's just another "We played it then went back to WoW" game.

[ArmchairMagpie]

You've got a point, mechanically it is very conservative and close to what TBC. However I have played WoW for seven years straight. I can handle low levels of innovation and high levels of tech/idea absorptions.

 

Besides, it's fun, that's all what counts. My friend plays all kinds of tower defense games. It's his favourite type of games. I asked him why he is playing them, they are all the same. He said it's fun, he doesn't care whether they are essentially the same.

 

Last year I bought Starcraft 2. Great RTS - in terms of innovation it couldn't hold a candle to Sins of a Solar Empire - it still was fun, and became popular.

[Mogitu]

No the voice over is part of the Narrative. The fact that the entire game has a strong story and narrative is innovative. If you're gonna tell me that in LOTRO, Warhammer, or WoW, story and narrative actually felt like it mattered while you killed mobs, I'll be ready to call you a liar.

 

If you can't see why making story and narrative a component that actually matters in the game is innovative, then I'm guess it's because you just refuse to see it.

 

innovation and evolution are 2 different things, you mix them up.

everything has been done before with the story, but just not as good as in swtor.

rather then being a new concept, it is more an evolution of an already existing concept.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Mogitu

[Mannic]

No the voice over is part of the Narrative. The fact that the entire game has a strong story and narrative is innovative. If you're gonna tell me that in LOTRO, Warhammer, or WoW, story and narrative actually felt like it mattered while you killed mobs, I'll be ready to call you a liar.

 

If you can't see why making story and narrative a component that actually matters in the game is innovative, then I'm guess it's because you just refuse to see it.

 

You obviously never played LoTRO or, if you did, never bothered to even try to understand the narrative.

 

And I have news for you-- TOR's story is at about the level of a Disney cartoon made for teenagers rather than children. Yeah, it's enjoyable, but make no mistake-- the game isn't even at the Prequels level of dialogue. Listen to it sometime, really listen to it, and ask yourself if there's anything there that couldn't have been written by a high school composition student. It's nowhere near the level of even KoToR.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Mannic

[Discotech]

Dissapointed that there's nothing really new or innovative in the game, apart from using companions for crafting.

 

but that aside I still like the game

[Roguebowdin]

I'm a consumer, not a developer. I'm not paid to come up with great innovations. I pay to enjoy great innovations. I'm allowed to not like something while not offering an alternative solution.

 

Damn nice comeback!

[CupieFoxtail]

You obviously never played LoTRO or, if you did, never bothered to even try to understand the narrative.

 

And I have news for you-- TOR's story is at about the level of a Disney cartoon made for teenagers rather than children. Yeah, it's enjoyable, but make no mistake-- the game isn't even at the Prequels level of dialogue. Listen to it sometime, really listen to it, and ask yourself if there's anything there that couldn't have been written by a high school composition student. It's nowhere near the level of even KoToR.

 

LoTRO had an atrocious story. All you did the entire game was chase Frodo and the gang. Your role in the events could not have been smaller.

You criticize tOR and say that LoTRO had a strong narrative... You are either joking, a fool, or are waxing on about how lovely a F2P is

 

The storytelling in this game absolutely blows LoTRO's out of the water

The class stories(at least smuggler) are incredibly interesting, with more than a few "you are revan" moments(albeit on a smaller scale due to less time invested)

Edited December 27, 2011 by CupieFoxtail

[Valkon]

It's not all about being innovative, but that a small part of it, you game does need to bring something new to the table.

 

The big thing is 1 upping everyone else

 

This game should have had:

 

-More PvP scenarios than Warhammer

 

-Public Quests, that are dynamic and scale to the amount of players doing them and constantly repeat with a minimal reset timer while giving good gear at the same time.

 

-More Raids than any other game has available currently

 

-NPC chat functionality that is better than KOTOR, giving us the ability to talk to companions and other characters more in-depth than necessary. 3 responses isn't enough

 

-A better Performance:Graphic Quality ratio than every game out there

 

-And if you are going to spend 5x as much money making the game, you sure as #@$% better make a game that is 5x better in EVERY way.

 

-A better space combat system than SWG

 

-More planets to explore than EvE(ok this one's a stretch)

 

-Just take every other MMO feature, see if you want to put it into your game in any capacity, and then improve it.

 

 

 

The "It's a new game" Excuse does not work. Being a new game means nothing anymore, there are too many games, and you have approximately 1 month to get your stuff together and show everyone that you are going to be the best thing out there, Otherwise people go back to their fallback games and you end up F2P. Just because WoW came back from the dust doesn't mean that this will. Though it is the next thing that could, WoW had a huge fan-base to begin with from all of Blizz' games and it was easy to play. This game has a sizable fanbase, but also the huge market that now exists(that WoW didn't have to deal with). Also most Star Wars fans are movie fans, ALL of Blizz' fans are video game fans and therefore more likely to play video games alot.