Question about The Empire regarding Aliens

[leine-b]

I just finished all the chapters of Old Republic and Knights of the Fallen Empire on my first character, but in general I'm still a Star Wars newbie, so sorry if this is an obvious question! I tried googling for an answer but nothing specific came up :'D

 

It's pretty clear from conversations and quests that more traditional Siths in the game are completely against aliens joining their ranks or being trained in the force. My character is a Zabrak Sith Marauder, so I thought he might get some abuse from NPCs for being an alien, but instead a lot of other Imperials refer to him in terms of being human. I remember though in one conversation where it allowed my character to question someone over his disgust for aliens, he replied saying that my Zabrak didn't count, because he's a 'higher alien', or something along those lines? I know that in one of the Heroic missions you get sent to kill aliens being trained by Jedi (Don't judge me for my character's actions, he has issues X'D) I noticed that most of those were Twi'lek and Togruta, so would those races be looked down on by some as 'lesser', or something?

 

So my question is, are some aliens viewed by the Empire as being above others, and are there particular reasons why? I would have thought that the Sith Race would be above everyone else if the Empire was a race-defines-class society because they literally are 'siths', but all the racists I can remember seem to be humans against 'aliens', so would that make humanity be seen as supreme? To a human, wouldn't a Pureblood Sith be an alien? Or does 'alien' have a more different meaning in the Star Wars Omniverse? I can't tell if the aspect of different races has just not been explored in the dialogue options (which is understandable, considering how many species there are to play as XD), or if it's been overlooked for Zabrak, or if Zabraks just don't count as aliens.

 

Thank you to anyone who can elaborate on this for me :'D

[OldVengeance]

I think part of that is because Sith Warriors weren't originally written with the idea of being an alien in mind. They are supposed to be from a noble house, so the NPCs weren't programmed with dialogue for alien Sith Warriors.

 

If you were a zabrak Inquisitor, Agent or Hunter, you'd get a lot more alien references.

 

With a tiny handful of exceptions, the game basically breaks down Humans, Cybrogs and Purebloods into "Human" and the rest into "alien" when it comes to reactions.

Edited November 28, 2015 by OldVengeance

[Analyst]

In-story it may be assumed that the Empire and the Sith have already begun to change their opinions on the matter of non-humans and non-"Purebloods". We have examples of non-human Sith in game after all. Remember, in future the Dark Order will become as accepting as the Light one, and lots of various species will be among the Sith. Perhaps we see the beginning of it.

That may explain why other Sith make no real difference. Non-Sith... well, if you see someone who is recognized as Sith by said nobility themselves - will you object to it? I presume they just thought that if the superiors are fine with that, it's no point to argue.

And being of a certain species definitely does not influence Sith performance quality.)

[Audoucet]

You played red zabrak or white zabrak ?

[leine-b]

I think part of that is because Sith Warriors weren't originally written with the idea of being an alien in mind. They are supposed to be from a noble house, so the NPCs weren't programmed with dialogue for alien Sith Warriors.

 

If you were a zabrak Inquisitor, Agent or Hunter, you'd get a lot more alien references.

 

With a tiny handful of exceptions, the game basically breaks down Humans, Cybrogs and Purebloods into "Human" and the rest into "alien" when it comes to reactions.

That does make sense regarding Warriors not being written to be alien; as the game progressed I did start to wonder why my character seemed to be written as arrogant and dismissive of aliens, when he was pretty much one himself X'D With that, I'm assuming that means you don't get nobility outside of humans and purebloods?

 

In-story it may be assumed that the Empire and the Sith have already begun to change their opinions on the matter of non-humans and non-"Purebloods". We have examples of non-human Sith in game after all. Remember, in future the Dark Order will become as accepting as the Light one, and lots of various species will be among the Sith. Perhaps we see the beginning of it.

That may explain why other Sith make no real difference. Non-Sith... well, if you see someone who is recognized as Sith by said nobility themselves - will you object to it? I presume they just thought that if the superiors are fine with that, it's no point to argue.

And being of a certain species definitely does not influence Sith performance quality.)

Seeing the beginning of change would definitely make sense, considering how in Fallen Empire you see Sith working with a practically alien-dominated crew, and that's only a few years post the class story events. I also see your point about not questioning what nobility acknowledge as Sith: that makes me feel a lot less like I broke canon with my character, thank you XD

 

Thank you both for your answers! I think I understand the lore and reason behind the lack of alien-related dialogue aimed at my character now > v <;

[leine-b]

You played red zabrak or white zabrak ?

 

(Sorry, I didn't see this post whilst replying to the one above x v x)

 

I played as a red zabrak.

[Shayddow]

<<Remember, in future the Dark Order will become as accepting as the Light one, and lots of various species will be among the Sith.>>

 

only partially. In EU, Palpatine is very much against aliens. And in the Thrawn stories it is remarked how good he had to be in order to get past circumstances that were very prejudicial in regards to non-humans.

Although, by the time you get to his era, the Sith purebreds were no longer around. In fact, by the time you get to Darth Bane era, you no longer saw red skin-toned Sith at all. This is hinted at, that they are gradually disappearing - if you do the Korriban mission that gives you the Sith pureblood codex entry.

 

 

 

In Sith origins, dark side jedi humans and Sith had interbred and became the dominant rulers of the Sith. So the human genome must have predominate tendencies.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Shayddow

[Analyst]

only partially. In EU, Palpatine is very much against aliens. And in the Thrawn stories it is remarked how good he had to be in order to get past circumstances that were very prejudicial in regards to non-humans.

There are millenia between TOR and Palpatine, and all the manners of Sith in between. The Brotherhood of Darkness, for example, included various species as members - humans, Twi'lek, Zabrak...

As for Palpatine, I must say that I am sure that his xenophobia was either exaggerated, or the Empire was xenophobic, not the ruler. I cannot really call a xenophobe a man who was taught by an alien, taught an alien, had an alien assistant throughout his rule, put an alien into Imperial High Command, put various kinds of aliens into the elite corps of Force users... Palpatine's Empire was Human-oriented, but I do not think that it was because of Palpatine's xenophobia.

[nimmerstil]

As for Palpatine, I must say that I am sure that his xenophobia was either exaggerated, or the Empire was xenophobic, not the ruler.

 

The Empire under Palpatine was actually The Republic not long before. The Empire under Vitiate during TOR had been an empire for a millenium - though the more recent additions would have been Republic once.

[Analyst]

Yes. And the Sith Empire of TOR was created by a single species, with humans as acceptable addition. The Galactic Empire was a transformed Republic, so it would be hard to maintain the same ideas.

(Though I am a bit disappointed in aesthetic similarities. Could they let Palpatine be inventive?)

[MortemXFive]

{MINOR GAME STORYLINE SPOLIERS!}

I get this thread is a bit dated now, but since the OP said they are new-ish I thought I'd help and make sure no questions remain, if possible.

 

Traditionally in both the Sith Order and the Empire it is true that only Purebloods and Humans were generally accepted as worthy and equal citizens. But some of the more forward thinking Dark Lords realized such exclusion made the more tolerant Republic stronger and their empire weaker, most notably Darth Malgus and Darth Marr. Aliens and even former slaves were granted access to the Sith Academy before the Imperial class stories start, but Imperial ranks such as in the military largely remained closed off to aliens.

 

After the Battle of Illum, Marr, arguably with support from some of his allies such as the Sith Inquisitor if you chose to work with him, enacted the Alien Initiatives, granting all members of Imperial society equal opportunity without much hindrance to prove their own merit in both Sith and Imperial ranks. There are still some vocal resistance from Sith Lords and Imperials who are against this decision, but their opinions have essentially been overruled and ignored. This along with mining Isotope 5 from Makeb certainly helped slow Republic advances in the new war, in my opinion of course. An enemy that can adapt is far more difficult to defeat.

Edited December 14, 2015 by MortemXFive

[Archanubis]

{MINOR GAME STORYLINE SPOLIERS!}

I get this thread is a bit dated now, but since the OP said they are new-ish I thought I'd help and make sure no questions remain, if possible.

 

Traditionally in both the Sith Order and the Empire it is true that only Purebloods and Humans were generally accepted as worthy and equal citizens. But some of the more forward thinking Dark Lords realized such exclusion made the more tolerant Republic stronger and their empire weaker, most notably Darth Malgus and Darth Marr. Aliens and even former slaves were granted access to the Sith Academy before the Imperial class stories start, but Imperial ranks such as in the military largely remained closed off to aliens.

 

After the Battle of Illum, Marr, arguably with support from some of his allies such as the Sith Inquisitor if you chose to work with him, enacted the Alien Initiatives, granting all members of Imperial society equal opportunity without much hindrance to prove their own merit in both Sith and Imperial ranks. There are still some vocal resistance from Sith Lords and Imperials who are against this decision, but their opinions have essentially been overruled and ignored. This along with mining Isotope 5 from Makeb certainly helped slow Republic advances in the new war, in my opinion of course. An enemy that can adapt is far more difficult to defeat.

 

From what we know of Marr, he does come off as a bit of a pragmatist, and given the losses the Empire as suffered by Rise of the Hutt Cartel (Corellia alone is said to have cost the Empire 10% of its forces - losses it really can't afford) and even the most hardlined Sith is forced to admit they don't have much choice if they want to keep up with the Republic. There are hints in the beginning of both the Warrior and Inquisitor prologues that the change is already starting to creep into the Empire (especially after the events that led to the Treaty of Coruscant), it's just the hardliners are - well, stubborn.

[SteveTheCynic]

From what we know of Marr, he does come off as a bit of a pragmatist, and given the losses the Empire as suffered by Rise of the Hutt Cartel (Corellia alone is said to have cost the Empire 10% of its forces - losses it really can't afford) and even the most hardlined Sith is forced to admit they don't have much choice if they want to keep up with the Republic. There are hints in the beginning of both the Warrior and Inquisitor prologues that the change is already starting to creep into the Empire (especially after the events that led to the Treaty of Coruscant), it's just the hardliners are - well, stubborn.

Marr is the arch-pragmatist, although he has his moments of stubborn as well. (Ref: Notably in Chapter 1 of KotFE, although I am 4 for 4 making the same decision as him.)

 

And of course the hardliners are stubborn. You know, by definition.

[MortemXFive]

From what we know of Marr, he does come off as a bit of a pragmatist, and given the losses the Empire as suffered by Rise of the Hutt Cartel (Corellia alone is said to have cost the Empire 10% of its forces - losses it really can't afford) and even the most hardlined Sith is forced to admit they don't have much choice if they want to keep up with the Republic. There are hints in the beginning of both the Warrior and Inquisitor prologues that the change is already starting to creep into the Empire (especially after the events that led to the Treaty of Coruscant), it's just the hardliners are - well, stubborn.

 

Overseer Harkun and Grand Moff Regus being two examples for hardliners I would say. Regus always makes it very difficult not to want to side with Malgus when that mission line comes.

[Archanubis]

Overseer Harkun and Grand Moff Regus being two examples for hardliners I would say. Regus always makes it very difficult not to want to side with Malgus when that mission line comes.

 

Overseer Tremel from the Warrior prologue as well: the whole reason for him bringing the Warrior PC to Korriban early is because the character is from a "pureblood" Sith family and Baras's then current apprentice isn't. Kinda why Harkun brings Ffon into the Inquisitor's "class," though Tremel doesn't taken it easy on the Warrior, while Harkun pretty much lets Ffon coast his way through (until Zash outs them both).

[MortemXFive]

Overseer Tremel from the Warrior prologue as well: the whole reason for him bringing the Warrior PC to Korriban early is because the character is from a "pureblood" Sith family and Baras's then current apprentice isn't. Kinda why Harkun brings Ffon into the Inquisitor's "class," though Tremel doesn't taken it easy on the Warrior, while Harkun pretty much lets Ffon coast his way through (until Zash outs them both).

 

Ah yes, forgot about Tremel. Not as easy to see him as a bad guy though considering he's actually more or less on the player's side. The exact opposite pretty much from Harkun in that regard, who if memory serves was willing to allow Ffon to violate the academy rules against killing fellow acolytes within the academy halls in order to triumph over your character, the exact same conduct he chews Xalek out for later. Remarkable display of hypocrisy.

[Leaveshill]

La la la .

Actually; Ffon gets to excecute a student that Harkun would've excecuted himself if Ffon hadn't been there. So that's not really breaking the rules; Ffon killed a failed acolyte that was sentenced to death for his failure.

Xalek, on the other hand, IS A FAILED ACOLYTE, that kills a sucessful acolyte, in the presence of both an overseer and a lord of the Sith. Obviously, it's much worse. Much, much worse; He cheated. Ffon just worked as Harkun's blade to spread a bit of fear to the other acolytes(in the situation you mentions, the cheating which leads to Ffon's death is a different affair) but he didn't break any rules as he did kill a failed acolyte which was deemed unworthy from that moment on.

Also; It's only hard to view Tremel as a "bad guy" because, you know. You're a hypocrit. I laugh out so loud at everyone hating Harkun, yet liking Tremel. They're on and the same, the only difference is that Tremel is an actual SLAVE and therefore a much worse hypocrit than Harkun (which, for the record, isn't a hypocrit, as he doesn't let Ffon "relax" and he the Ffon-Xalek situations cannot, by any means, be compared. Tremel is a sneaky version of Harkun, and he's not even a single bit "less bad", but people are so filled with hypocrisy that they like him while hating Harkun.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one! And in most other Pro-Tremel yet Anti-Harkun people

Edited December 14, 2015 by Leaveshill

[Archanubis]

Ah yes, forgot about Tremel. Not as easy to see him as a bad guy though considering he's actually more or less on the player's side.

 

Tremel's as much on your side as any Sith is, mainly because 1) the Warrior PC is the protagonist and 2) you're really a means to an end.

 

Also; It's only hard to view Tremel as a "bad guy" because, you know. You're a hypocrit. I laugh out so loud at everyone hating Harkun, yet liking Tremel. They're on and the same, the only difference is that Tremel is an actual SLAVE and therefore a much worse hypocrit than Harkun (which, for the record, isn't a hypocrit, as he doesn't let Ffon "relax" and he the Ffon-Xalek situations cannot, by any means, be compared. Tremel is a sneaky version of Harkun, and he's not even a single bit "less bad", but people are so filled with hypocrisy that they like him while hating Harkun.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one! And in most other Pro-Tremel yet Anti-Harkun people

 

Tremel's an instructor at the Academy on Korriban, and a trained Sith - about as far from being a slave as one can get in Sith ranks (though definitely not on the same level as a Lord or Darth, and it doesn't mean he didn't start out as one - we know of at least one Dark Council member who did). His whole reason for opposing Tremel (Baras's apprentice before the Warrior PC) and pushing the PC is because he views Vemrin as "below" what he views a true Sith should be (he's kinda not unlike Thanaton in that respect). Your character even has the option of calling him out on his "elitism," (keep in mind, Tremel and Vemrin are both human) to which he responds "You say that like it's a bad thing."

 

The biggest difference between Tremel and Harkun is how they treat their favored students: Tremel is at *least* respectful to the Warrior, but still challenges him/her to perform at their best (probably because Tremel is smart enough to realize Baras wouldn't have even blinked an eye at the Warrior otherwise). Meanwhile, Harkun gives Ffon easy assignments, hoping to thin the rest of the candidates through attrition - it's just one of the "slaves" keeps throwing a monkey wrench into his plans, and I have no doubt Zash made sure the final trial was fixed in the PC's favor, especially after the PC catches her attention.

[Leaveshill]

La laaa

Why he's at your side is irrelevant. He is in the same way Harkun is for Ffon

 

Read the letter you get from Lord Abaron; Tremel is "slave-blood". Of course, Thanaton is also slave-blood and a traditionalist; that's true. But it's irrelevant, Tremel's way of speaking about Tremel is far worse than how Thanaton describes the SI, as Thanaton's even respectful if you "answer correctly" in the conversation in the tomb

"Give this one a respectful cremation", and by the end at Corellia "I'm sorry it had to come to this". His "Hate" for the "unworthy" can't be compared to Tremel's, talking about Vemrin as "vermin, filth" or whatever he feels like; it's easy to hear how much he despises him due to his bloodline, while having slave-blood himself.

 

Also, Harkun didn't choose easier assignements for Ffon; Zash decided that Ffon should translate the texts while the SI went into the tomb after the Holocron. Ffon didn't get "simpler" tasks by default, he got what Zash asked for. The SI got the hardest trials because she wished it; and Ffon was still tested like every other acolyte was.

And being disrespectful is an option, I didn't say that everyone "loved" him, I complained about the ones being pro-Tremel and Anti.-Harkun. They're two sides of the same coin; and therefore loving one yet hating one is simply hypocrisy. That's what I was pointing out. And don't tell me that "but Tremel gave him challenges", he gave him priviliged challenges that in fact angered Baras ("Prisoners flew here for your convienence, a beast slayed here on Korriban instead of off-world in the wilds!"), and while it's true that the SW does harder tasks than Ffon; that's explainable. Ffon is an acolyte; in fact, the SW becomes an official acolyte only after killing Tremel. Hence; he's given special assignments and his own "personal overseer", Ffon is in a class of acolytes and therefore he, while he's treated differently, has to go through trials overseen also by Zash to a certain degree.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Leaveshill

[Joachimthbear]

Ffon just worked as Harkun's blade to spread a bit of fear to the other acolytes(in the situation you mentions, the cheating which leads to Ffon's death is a different affair) but he didn't break any rules as he did kill a failed acolyte which was deemed unworthy from that moment on.

I could be remembering wrong, but doesn't Harkun

 

take the map to the tomb from you and give it to Ffon so he can claim credit for something he didn't do? That's what gets Ffon killed and is blatantly cheating. Harkun does rationalise it because at that point, he's convinced you must be cheating to have lasted so long.

 

[Leaveshill]

I could be remembering wrong, but doesn't Harkun

 

take the map to the tomb from you and give it to Ffon so he can claim credit for something he didn't do? That's what gets Ffon killed and is blatantly cheating. Harkun does rationalise it because at that point, he's convinced you must be cheating to have lasted so long.

 

Harkun does indeed try to alter the final trial through cheating on this occasion; but I was talking about the time he allowed Ffon to murder the failed acolyte. When he says "I believe it's time for another demonstration, Gerr(or whatever his name is), step forward" , then "Ffon, kill him", which wasn't "breaking the rules" as Gerr(or whatever his name is) had been deemed unworthy and was "sentenced" to death because of it; like the acolyte Harkun kills after Spindral disapproves of her.

[Katahn]

I rather wish that the class story was separate from the class for reasons getting back to "why is the Empire treating an alien sith warrior so good and a pureblood sith inquisitor like scum".

 

Sith Story Options:

1.) Honored Sith Lineage (allowed only to humans, cyborgs, pure bloods) - You are the heir to a noble sith bloodline, raised in privilege and trained in the dark arts and combat since childhood.

2.) Former slave (allowed to all except pure blood) - You were a slave in the Empire, the lowest and scummiest of the scummy. Discovered to be Force sensitive you have been conscripted into the ranks of the Sith and sent to Korriban to train.

 

Neither story *requires* one class or another. A sith sorcerer could easily be the heir of a noble sith bloodline and a brutal sith juggernaut could just as easily be a hulk of a former slave who translates his rage into effectiveness in battle.

[Joachimthbear]

Harkun does indeed try to alter the final trial through cheating on this occasion; but I was talking about the time he allowed Ffon to murder the failed acolyte. When he says "I believe it's time for another demonstration, Gerr(or whatever his name is), step forward" , then "Ffon, kill him", which wasn't "breaking the rules" as Gerr(or whatever his name is) had been deemed unworthy and was "sentenced" to death because of it; like the acolyte Harkun kills after Spindral disapproves of her.

Not disputing that one. But there was a case of Harkun directly cheating or condoning cheating on behalf of his favoured acolyte. What Harkun did for Ffon is basically the same as what Xalek did for himself (Harkun/Ffon didn't directly murder anyone to do it, but the Inquisitor's death was the expected result anyway).

 

I do agree with you that Harkun is essentially no worse than Tremel. It's natural for the player character to sympathise more with Tremel, but the player should probably be aware that he's not a good guy.

[Leaveshill]

Not disputing that one. But there was a case of Harkun directly cheating or condoning cheating on behalf of his favoured acolyte. What Harkun did for Ffon is basically the same as what Xalek did for himself (Harkun/Ffon didn't directly murder anyone to do it, but the Inquisitor's death was the expected result anyway).

 

I do agree with you that Harkun is essentially no worse than Tremel. It's natural for the player character to sympathise more with Tremel, but the player should probably be aware that he's not a good guy.

Harkun does indeed try to cheat in the same way as Xalek does; the problem however being that Xalek's cheating is as obvious as breaking a peace-treaty by marching into the enemy territory with an army, it's even in front of the Sith Lord. Not to mention that he killed the SI's new apprentice, as it was sort of official. "Meet your new apprentice" - Harkun. But it's in the same area, yes. But I can understand that Harkun can't stand seeing a slave, one that even failed his trials, as well as being an alien; and a criminal according to Sith Laws and traditions; given a free pass because he broke the rule. That's understandable, and I've played through the storyline 6 times without killing Harkun due to him having a too clear point regarding Xalek. I'd kill him myself, haha.

But indeed, it's easier to view Tremel as a "better guy" because the PC is Tremel's "Ffon", while the SI is Harkun's Vemrin; which of course makes it easy to hate one and like the other. But I'd still call it hypocrisy, though!

 

 

ILa la.

That's true. In fact; The SI is also locked, as it's rather clear that Lord Kallig was human; at least near-human (and most likely human due to him being a Sith in a time where racism was even worse than SWTOR era, as well as him being of a "great sith blood line", after all. "Has our bloodline fallen so far that the sons of my sons does not know the name of Kallig? A name so long revered among the Sith" or something like that. So; SI is a human, in fact, since it's almost 100% certain that he can't be a Pureblood.

But while a Warrior can be a "slave scum" and a sorcerer can be pureblood; the stories are however important. That's the entire point of the SI story; to climb from slavery (the lowest of all 8 PCs) to the highest PC (Dark Council; highest position one can get in SWTOR as a PC.). This is the entire point of the story; to climb the furthest; to be the most ambitious PC, to have enemies everywhere from the start and very few allies, etc. I agree that they could've made the game more "all-species friendly", but it's hard to make good stories that's open for all. Not that it can't be done, but I personally enjoy the way they did it in SWTOR.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Leaveshill

[Archanubis]

That's true. In fact; The SI is also locked, as it's rather clear that Lord Kallig was human; at least near-human (and most likely human due to him being a Sith in a time where racism was even worse than SWTOR era, as well as him being of a "great sith blood line", after all. "Has our bloodline fallen so far that the sons of my sons does not know the name of Kallig? A name so long revered among the Sith" or something like that. So; SI is a human, in fact, since it's almost 100% certain that he can't be a Pureblood.

But while a Warrior can be a "slave scum" and a sorcerer can be pureblood; the stories are however important. That's the entire point of the SI story; to climb from slavery (the lowest of all 8 PCs) to the highest PC (Dark Council; highest position one can get in SWTOR as a PC.). This is the entire point of the story; to climb the furthest; to be the most ambitious PC, to have enemies everywhere from the start and very few allies, etc. I agree that they could've made the game more "all-species friendly", but it's hard to make good stories that's open for all. Not that it can't be done, but I personally enjoy the way they did it in SWTOR.

 

Keep in mind which races are unlocked for these classes, too (unless you've spent Cartel Coins or reached a certain level with another class to unlock that race). The Warrior's limited to Human, Cyborg (technically still human), Pureblood, and Zabrak - which are apparently the "elite" races in the Empire (why Chiss isn't one of them, I don't know, but that's besides the point). The Inquisitor's are Human, Rattataki, Pureblood, Twi'kek, and Zabrak - all of which *can* be slave races (and in the case of the Twi'leks, usually are) in the Empire

with Kallig's fall from grace a good indicator for why a Pureblood would be reduced to slavery.

 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Archanubis