Anti-nerfers! Stop it!

[PulseRazor]

Your point is irrelevant in a game with a market. Everyone needs the same potential to use the game's mechanics to their best advantage to compete in the market, or else the economy wouldn't work. If making use of the mechanics is consequentially boring, then it is more likely that the people would just stop competing in the market entirely and leave the game rather then handicap their ability to compete just to find a sense of satisfaction in game play.

 

1111w, loot.... 1111w1, loot..... 1111w, loot.... is not rewarding game play. Its a spectator system. Even the people who are advocating for the game to be accessible to the lowest skill possible are going to get bored of it, I am not sure the current state of the game is going to encourage people to pay $15 a month, and invest in the cartel market.

[Halinalle]

1111w, loot.... 1111w1, loot..... 1111w, loot.... is not rewarding game play.

 

I thought it was:

- Ctrl+1

- Go make tea

- Return and loot

[XkentuckyboyX]

Do you find walking across your house challenging?

 

Assuming you can walk normally, I'd further assume that the answer would be that you probably do not and have likely never found this to be a task of note.

 

I don't find it difficult at all, myself. Don't even have to think to do it all the freaking time.

 

So, how interested would you be in suddenly having it take twice as long to do so?

 

Would this present a challenge to you, if you were suddenly relegated to moving at half speed through your house?

 

Would you enjoy that?

 

If you're answer is no, then you might understand why I, and anyone of like mind as me, preferred powerful companions.

 

We didn't need our hands held. It just made the monotony go by faster.

 

The whole argument for 4.0 buffed companions was to alleviate the tedium and monotony of playing the game. If the game is so tedius and monotonous, then the game isn't for you. Why drive to make a game that others enjoy, who also enjoy a challenge so easy that there is no satisfaction to be had through combat for a casual player like myself?

[Severitus]

So yeah, I wouldn't mind solo content to be on the challenge level of any other game on Normal mode at least. Even after the most recent companion re-buff, I'm able to roll my face across the keyboard and defeat anything solo with barely any loss to life.

 

And, we are back to the beginning of the never-ending circle. That's great that you can do this...it shows your skill as a player of this game. But, not everyone is able to do that. So, why force that level of challenge on everyone else, when YOU have the easy option of switching your comp to a different spec, rolling with a comp with lower levels of influence, rolling without a comp altogether. These are options that are open to YOU...that are NOT open to others. If the devs force everyone into your style of play, they WILL lose customers and the overall game with suffer for it. Not as many customers means not as many dollars coming into the game, which means not nearly as much content for you to enjoy your style of play.

[Gorrdan]

Your point is irrelevant in a game with a market. Everyone needs the same potential to use the game's mechanics to their best advantage to compete in the market, or else the economy wouldn't work. If making use of the mechanics is consequentially boring, then it is more likely that the people would just stop competing in the market entirely and leave the game rather then handicap their ability to compete just to find a sense of satisfaction in game play.

 

1111w, loot.... 1111w1, loot..... 1111w, loot.... is not rewarding game play. Its a spectator system. Even the people who are advocating for the game to be accessible to the lowest skill possible are going to get bored of it, I am not sure the current state of the game is going to encourage people to pay $15 a month, and invest in the cartel market.

 

Yes because 11,22,1,22,3,1... loot

 

Makes it so much more engaging because you pressed two extra keys.

 

You are in wrong genre bud.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Gorrdan

[Opaknack]

Companions after 4.0

Treek level 14: 1 skill -> 100k heal

Edited November 25, 2015 by Opaknack

[Severitus]

The whole argument for 4.0 buffed companions was to alleviate the tedium and monotony of playing the game. If the game is so tedius and monotonous, then the game isn't for you. Why drive to make a game that others enjoy, who also enjoy a challenge so easy that there is no satisfaction to be had through combat for a casual player like myself?

 

I think most people expect (or, SHOULD expect) some tedium in an MMO. The way MMOs are set up, there HAS to be some sort of grind. But, for a lot of people (including myself), the 4.0 comps made that tedium/grind FUN. I had a blast rolling into planetary H2s and pulling everything I could on my Sith Warrior (DPS) and slashing through everything. It made me feel like the powerful warrior the story said I was suppose to be. I could do my force charge into the mob, kill them all then force charge to the next mob. I felt like Anakin when he mowed through the sand people in Episode II, it was great! I didn't have to wait for defensive CDs to come off of cooldown, I didn't have to take the time to heal myself after every mob. So, I was having fun. And, while doing that fun, I was able to practice things like rotations, interrupting things, CCing things, without having to worry about dying as well.

 

There is no reason that the normal grind of an MMO can't also have fun elements to it.

 

Now, am I saying the 4.0 comps didn't have a nerf incoming. No, I am not. I did feel they were a little over powered. But, not the huge sledgehammer that they got in 4.0.2. That was ridiculous. I would've rather seen BW nerf them a little bit, take another look and see where they were at. Need another nerf? Ok, nerf a little bit again, etc. until they found a sweet spot. Instead, they did a nuking of the comps which was driving people away from the game, because they took away the fun from the grind for a lot of people.

[Garmon]

To all of you telling players to turn off companion abilities, dismiss them etc.. STOP!!!

 

It is not the player's responsibility to create a challenging gaming experience, it's the developers.. Otherwise it is an artificial challenge, it's not real.. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

I am not pro nerf or against nerf.. All I am saying is, I should not be forced to lose a part of the game (dismiss my companion) if I feel there's no challenge..

 

Here we go again, why don't you just come out and say the truth... You want everyone nerfed so you can brag that you can do so and so while others are struggling...

 

In the end, like some of the other posters have said, you will be standing alone in a game that is empty, and there will be no one to brag to...

Edited November 25, 2015 by Garmon

[Renzetsu]

I am against the nerfing but I agree with the OP!

[Smuglebunny]

Am I the only one who hasnt really noticed this nerf? My companion heals me, I dont die. Just like before. Whats the problem? Companions were OP now they are slightly less OP.

[XkentuckyboyX]

And, we are back to the beginning of the never-ending circle. That's great that you can do this...it shows your skill as a player of this game. But, not everyone is able to do that. So, why force that level of challenge on everyone else, when YOU have the easy option of switching your comp to a different spec, rolling with a comp with lower levels of influence, rolling without a comp altogether. These are options that are open to YOU...that are NOT open to others. If the devs force everyone into your style of play, they WILL lose customers and the overall game with suffer for it. Not as many customers means not as many dollars coming into the game, which means not nearly as much content for you to enjoy your style of play.

 

That's just the thing. I'm probably just an average skilled player. I use my mouse to click abilities, no addons, no keybinds, and my companions are a really low level. Things die so fast in this game. I click just a few abilities at most and a target dies unless it is a strong enemy, and then I might get to get through a full rotation of abilities if I'm lucky. Gold star enemies are the only ones that take some time to kill, but as long as I'm hitting any abilities they will die and I will have barely any loss of life. I have tried different companion specs, and no matter what the game it isn't challenging. Turning off companion abilities is an option, but it's an option that will guarantee my death when I run across a player enemy.

[LordArtemis]

Though some folks did make the argument that 4.0 was to make the game less tedious (not a surprise considering that likely many players outleveled content for the very same reason), I tend to think it is more likely that they were pumped up to max to accommodate the fact that progression was removed from the leveling world.

 

In order for such a huge change to be accepted by the masses they likely theorized that they needed to make the comps powerful. Unfortunately they made them a bit TOO powerful, trivializing end game content as a result.

 

I believe that has generally been corrected with the current adjustment. It seems to me at least that my companions are performing pretty close to pre-4.0 performance levels.

 

They overperformed in 4.0. They underperformed in 4.0.2. 4.0.2a seems to be a good balance, though a few more small tweaks might be needed (inconsistency between tech and force healing performance, inconsistent tank performance, some companions have trouble holding on to class buffs when phasing, comps that do not offer storyline progression).

[RogerApple]

The problem is when your companions were healing you so effectively during those 22 days. As some have said they played SWTOR for years. Those 22 day's were the most fun people ever had. So what was the problem keeping that way. I suppose people who grouped for heroics were upset instead of forcing people to group or not.

 

They gave people OPTIONS. They said "Look you can group or you can do it solo. It's your choice" That's what I loved about the companions. The option if life was so demanding I didn't have time or I didn't want group with people. I could still do the heroic. I don't understand why those who hated how much companions healed simply didn't just remove them.

 

That's like complaining about what a horrible TV show CNN is then not turning the channel to either MSNBC or Fox. I seriously don't get why that would been such a big deal. You have the OPTION to use the companion and maybe you do and maybe you don't. What I do know. That you cannot force people to group that don't want to. Many people wanted a single player game. You can still have a MMO and and single player. MMO is muti massive Online. We are all online. Doesn't mean we all have to be forced to be grouped online.

[Uruare]

The whole argument for 4.0 buffed companions was to alleviate the tedium and monotony of playing the game. If the game is so tedius and monotonous, then the game isn't for you. Why drive to make a game that others enjoy, who also enjoy a challenge so easy that there is no satisfaction to be had through combat for a casual player like myself?

 

I'm not trying to get OP companions back, but trying to say that they were everything that was wrong is disingenuous. Even now that they've been, IMO, nicely balanced, that still changed exactly nothing about how someone like myself never much had to think or try to do anything what so ever in the leveling game.

 

The mobs aren't challenging for anyone playing with two hands and paying the customary amount of attention one might when playing a video game.

 

This late in the game, I feel safe in concluding that this is by design and they're not going to radically change that design... though after this embarrassing showing of firing blind and apparently guesstimating very badly what would be best for companions twice, I suppose anything is possible.

 

 

This game is objectively easy. The bar is set pretty low on intrinsic challenge in most of the leveling content.

 

I still remember when people were screaming and crying about some planet story boss on Voss not long after launch, because it had an (interuptable) attack that could do a lot of damage.

 

Enough people were sobbing about it to be memorable, though I don't recall what the creature was called.

 

I do well recall having been confused, as I'd just run the thing over like any other speed bump on my way to better things and failed entirely too notice that it was supposed to have been some sort of challenging fight.

 

Flash forward a bit too when Makeb went live. Mob density was rather annoying, but not dangerous for anyone playing with two hands again.

 

I remember having thought that the giant robot fight and the Toborro fight were going to be nerfed into oblivion since those actually have mechanics and Toborro even has a big doom laser attack, and I had to actually be awake to figure out what to do in them.

 

The first time. Toborro killed me once with the doom laser I remember, which was how I learned about the doom laser, but once over those simple fights were figured out, they've been speed bumps ever since, and not dramatic ones.

 

People in both guilds I'm in are always asking for help with those fights. I don't know of is because it's just faster with more than one or because they're still the common idea of difficult, but there that is.

 

I know I often enough see people asking for help in general there with both of those, so I tend to assume they're decent examples of this game's challenge threshold. Not infrequently, I'll go help people asking nicely for a hand, and I see an awful lot of those people genuinely having a hard time getting it done on their own. One poor sod I distinctly recall kept getting lasered to death by Toborro and not realizing that he needed to kill the refueling droids whenever they'd run out to prevent that from happening, and he seemed to just generally not be able to juggle doing that and dealing with keeping himself alive even when I told him what to do and let him try doing it himself per his request.

 

I'd any of that is accurately indicative of what the difficulty tolerances of the typical players in this game are, Bioware doesn't have much room to play with on that front. The skill level required was always very low here and I have no doubt that most players, even many that might think they're hot to trot because they're practicality unkillable in normal gameplay here, would be puree in certain other games that are objectively far more difficult.

 

This game just flat out isn't designed to be a game that pushes skilled gamers and challenges them. It never was.

 

It's never going to be. Not in the leveling content. Fallen Empire's boss battles have mechanics and bosses overflowing with bloated HP pools, and that's very likely as difficult as this game's average Joe either wants or can handle.

 

If you're someone that's frustrated by finding everything too easy, there's a damn good chance that you're going to be frustrated on that front forever here.

 

It's just what it is. Me, I don't even look for challenge here and I'm never disappointed by not finding what I wasn't expecting. I play other things for challenges. And I play this to derp around with myriad friends and have adventures with Star Wars pixels.

 

Any arguments or rants about how one shouldn't have to make one's own challenges pretty much don't matter. If you're not challenged by what the game offers and you're not willing or interested in making your own challenges where you can, you're not going to get challenges.

 

And that's pretty much the end of it.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Uruare

[Pagy]

The problem is when your companions were healing you so effectively during those 22 days. As some have said they played SWTOR for years. Those 22 day's were the most fun people ever had. So what was the problem keeping that way. I suppose people who grouped for heroics were upset instead of forcing people to group or not.

 

They gave people OPTIONS. They said "Look you can group or you can do it solo. It's your choice" That's what I loved about the companions. The option if life was so demanding I didn't have time or I didn't want group with people. I could still do the heroic. I don't understand why those who hated how much companions healed simply didn't just remove them.

 

That's like complaining about what a horrible TV show CNN is then not turning the channel to either MSNBC or Fox. I seriously don't get why that would been such a big deal. You have the OPTION to use the companion and maybe you do and maybe you don't. What I do know. That you cannot force people to group that don't want to. Many people wanted a single player game. You can still have a MMO and and single player. MMO is muti massive Online. We are all online. Doesn't mean we all have to be forced to be grouped online.

it's been explained a dozen times.

 

bw is interested in maintaining subs. you may like overpowered companions, but it doesnt last. if content is too easy, then a player will get sick of it. conversely if its too hard, they just give up. it's been said a dozen times now and even by bw. there needs to be a balance.

[Frenesi]

No, thats just an assumption based on bias. KOTFE has no new challenging group endgame except star fortress, and managed to adress a lot of additional customers.

 

KOTFE proves you wrong.

 

KOTFE doesn't prove me wrong, becouse servers are back to "normal" again during primetime. Alot of those aditional customers left already. Or perhaps oldfags left, hard to tell from outside. But fact is, KotFE didn't do to permanently increase player base. It was a cashgrab, pretty good one, but nothing outside of it.

Edited November 25, 2015 by CommunityDroidEU
rude part removed

[Severitus]

KOTFE doesn't prove me wrong, becouse servers are back to "normal" again during primetime. Alot of those aditional customers left already. Or perhaps oldfags left, hard to tell from outside. But fact is, KotFE didn't do to permanently increase player base. It was a cashgrab, pretty good one, but nothing outside of it.

 

Your argument doesn't take into account that they had to add shards (or whatever you want to call them) in order to increase server capacity. I know for a fact that they've done this on Harbinger (not sure about others). So, what previously would've been "high" on Harbinger is now "normal." For a while, there was even a queue to get into Harbinger. KotFE brought people back to the game (including myself). How LONG they stay remains to be seen.

Edited November 25, 2015 by CommunityDroidEU
rude quote edited

[Frenesi]

Your argument doesn't take into account that they had to add shards (or whatever you want to call them) in order to increase server capacity. I know for a fact that they've done this on Harbinger (not sure about others). So, what previously would've been "high" on Harbinger is now "normal." For a while, there was even a queue to get into Harbinger. KotFE brought people back to the game (including myself). How LONG they stay remains to be seen.

 

Good point. Kinda forgot about server increases.

 

Well, we still have a lot of time to see how it goes.

[ivanhedgehog]

Suddenly i got fed up with the self-righteousness of the anti-nerfers, that's why the language was impolite.

Apparently it's always the other people that have to take certain measurements,namely gimping yourself on purpose in order to achieve what they want from the game.

But when it comes to working around or pushing through what you guys perceive as ''tedious'', nooo, we can't have that, let's change game itself across the board so we would have an easier time.

 

snip

And no i not against a balanced approach, i have said before, i support the companions to be buffed a little(as they are now), in order for the forum drama to stop, and people to be satisfied on both sides of the fence.

 

you are standing at a buffet. you dont like the brussel sprouts in bowl number 4, but rather than just not take any, you demand that they be removed. after all, you should be able to take something from EVERY bowl and not get brussel sprouts and you have decided that no one else needs them because you dont like them.

[Myracarrah]

Strangely enough the Pro-Nerf and the Anti-Nerf (who names these things anyway?) groups seem to both be agreeing. That the game is not challenging.

 

Where we disagree is on how to fix the problem.

 

The Pro-Nerf side says 'I want my companion to be my sidekick because it's an adventure, but they shouldn't do much because I should do it, because I'm the hero'.

 

The Anti-Nerf side says, "I want my companion to be another hero, they should do what I do, so the adventure is over faster."

 

Maybe the problem isn't the companions but instead the lack of variety of challenge?

 

You have Solo Mode - Easy

You have Group Mode - Medium

You have Raid Mode - Hard

 

But... not every Solo'er likes Easy, not everyone who wants a Medium game wants to group, and once in a while someone wants to try something Hard without it taking an hour to form up and coordinating on Vent. (Don't even get me started on the DKP, and the diva crying because someone didn't sign up in time).

 

Personally I hope Bioware keeps the idea behind the SF H2 going. Although I would refer to it as DUO content meaning to start out in it, you should go in with TWO players and TWO companions, moving on to a higher difficulty when you and your companion can solo it.

[CaveBeast]

you are standing at a buffet. you dont like the brussel sprouts in bowl number 4, but rather than just not take any, you demand that they be removed. after all, you should be able to take something from EVERY bowl and not get brussel sprouts and you have decided that no one else needs them because you dont like them.

Bingo! ^^^ This game cannot be all things to all people... It can be, and is, somewhat customizable to enable players who desire slightly different (harder) gameplay. They can make things harder should they so choose by making some very simple choices and check-box adjustments to their companions... Heck, if they want to really make it harder, they can even put their companion away AND stop using a few of the powers in their toon's rotation...

Edited November 25, 2015 by CaveBeast

[Wemblys]

To all of you telling players to turn off companion abilities, dismiss them etc.. STOP!!!

 

It is not the player's responsibility to create a challenging gaming experience, it's the developers.. Otherwise it is an artificial challenge, it's not real.. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

I am not pro nerf or against nerf.. All I am saying is, I should not be forced to lose a part of the game (dismiss my companion) if I feel there's no challenge..

 

 

Why is it difficult to understand that while it seems bad to turn off the companion, at least the pro nerfers have that option

 

However you just nerf nerf nerf then what options does the player who liked companions have?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Wemblys

[JamieKirby]

To all of you telling players to turn off companion abilities, dismiss them etc.. STOP!!!

 

It is not the player's responsibility to create a challenging gaming experience, it's the developers.. Otherwise it is an artificial challenge, it's not real.. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

I am not pro nerf or against nerf.. All I am saying is, I should not be forced to lose a part of the game (dismiss my companion) if I feel there's no challenge..

 

Wrong, its not the developer responsibility to make it challenging, since everyone's version of challenging can be quite different, that is why alot of players make things challenging themselves, so they can make it just challenging enough for them to enjoy it, but not too challenging, taking away the fun of playing the game.

 

Turning off abilities is a valid solution to making things challenging, since without a companion the game can be quite challenging.

[TUXs]

To all of you telling players to turn off companion abilities, dismiss them etc.. STOP!!!

 

It is not the player's responsibility to create a challenging gaming experience, it's the developers.. Otherwise it is an artificial challenge, it's not real.. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

I am not pro nerf or against nerf.. All I am saying is, I should not be forced to lose a part of the game (dismiss my companion) if I feel there's no challenge..

Oh bull. A companion is a crutch. If you find them OP, it's up to YOU to dismiss them or disable some skills. They should make content easier...they do. They shouldn't be required, but usually they are. If you're finding grindy content too easy with your companions out, the power to change that is in your hands.

 

The Devs have created challenging content already, where companions aren't even allowed...they're called Ops, Warzones and GSF.

Edited November 25, 2015 by TUXs

[Master-Nala]

And, we are back to the beginning of the never-ending circle. That's great that you can do this...it shows your skill as a player of this game. But, not everyone is able to do that. So, why force that level of challenge on everyone else, when YOU have the easy option of switching your comp to a different spec, rolling with a comp with lower levels of influence, rolling without a comp altogether. These are options that are open to YOU...that are NOT open to others. If the devs force everyone into your style of play, they WILL lose customers and the overall game with suffer for it. Not as many customers means not as many dollars coming into the game, which means not nearly as much content for you to enjoy your style of play.

 

To the extent we're talking about the solo content, I agree. That content should be relatively easy. But I think there is a corollary that got missed here. Heroics were intended to take skill to solo. In a sense, soloing heroics was creating an artificial challenge for yourself.

 

For example, when we got the level cap at 55, I was able to solo the Black Hole +4 heroics on some of my characters. They were absolutely trivial if I did them in a group. That to my mind is a good example of an artificial challenge. The reason is that I was not handicapping my own performance, I just chose not to enlist help.

 

Likewise, I think that the developers originally wanted heroics to be soloable, but not trivially so. They could still be easily defeated in groups and that was intentional.

 

So to my mind, both sides had a point, but neither was being completely fair to the other side. For folks having problems with the solo content, that was a problem. For those wanting to solo the Heroic Star Fortress easily, that was not a problem that needed fixing in my opinion. Now the most recent change increased the number of people who can solo heroic star fortress, but I suspect it's still not everyone. That's reasonable to my mind.