A Few Kolto Stations Does Not Make All Flashpoints Role Neutral.

[thewitchdoctor]

Yeah, that's tough with four DPSs if you don't know what you're doing. Even among four DPS's there's always going to be someone who's naturally better at p***ing it off, so that lucky person gets to drag it to the station while one other acts as dedicated healer, running to the kolto stations through the sandstorm (preferably with force-speed).

 

That's the crux, right there. It just takes four people paying some degree of attention and willing to listen and then just do what it takes to make the group succeed.

 

That may mean:

 

1. Turning on target of target to see if you are the DPS 'tanking,' and if so, do whatever the encounter requires (like moving to the generator);

 

2. If you have offheals, it won't make you less of a DPS to use them. I know a lot of people say, 'if I wanted to heal I'd spec heals.' Well, you tell me which is better: wipe or you use a green skill?

 

3. Use a kolto station. Your DPS rotation isn't going to suffer too much if you use one on cooldown. If there is an enrage, you'd have to be autoattacking to reach it.

 

4. Use your defensive cooldowns! Use a stim. An adrenal.

 

5. Use CC. Respect CC!

 

6. Communicate! If you are new or inexperienced (or not as experienced as you'd like to think you are), take the criticism and do mo' better the next time. And if you are the one giving the criticism, don't be an a**hat about it.

 

Yes, some combinations of a PUG (4 brand-new low-level DPS, for example) are going to find it tough. And perhaps they won't be able to do it. But I think that combination is an outlier. Most groups can do the TFPs if they just put the effort.

 

I'm not saying, 'huh huh, chump, L2P.' I'm saying, look at your skills and your teammates' skills and put them to use. Some of the TFPs are definitely harder than others. No denying that. Some (all?) are not even worth the time to do, really other than the weekly if you need the crystals.

 

So in your experience, the average random PUGs could handle Ortuno or that Meltdown desert boss as a 4xDPS group?

 

Yes. Yes they could. Zanya explained how such a group could do the desert boss. Ortuno was much the same. Run away from flow, gather at a kolto station, hit it, and the three DPS not tanking destroy the adds.

 

Honestly, I think many of the issues encountered in a TFP are from people expecting to keep playing out their 'lone wolf' fantasies. The smallest step out of their comfort zone probably is the difference between success and failure. And if you invested the time to queue ... why not take the step necessary to succeed?

[Tadagyt]

Tacticals... stopped playing them after 4.0 (through GF I mean, because I still play them with a friend and 2 companions and we have no troubles).

No idea what's broken when you group with random people, but something is because they get unplayable.

 

So until they fix it, we're finishing our weekly that way.

[ShawDou]

As i see it, there are two main things i find problematic.

 

1. Some are much harder than others.

2. They are NOT role neutral.

 

To expand my point of view.

 

1. A lot of Higher level FPs was build with idea that players already know what to do and have certain skills.

By me, solution is let TFP be accessible by level. 20lvl player will not get into Bloor Hunt or Maelstrom prison, but will get into Athis or hammer station like it was before.

 

2. I fail to see how it can ever be truly "role neutral", there will be always player who will have to TANK boss and player who will have to HEAL or use healing stations. Yes you can join as group of four DPS. But game will force some of you into role anyway, even if only for part time, and you have to play that role or you wipe. If you get group of people who DONT want to tank or heal, you are screwed.

 

So to summarize it, If all group will only act as DPS role, they will never make it = it is not role neutral.

Edited November 26, 2015 by ShawDou

[branmakmuffin]

Yes. Yes they could. Zanya explained how such a group could do the desert boss. Ortuno was much the same. Run away from flow, gather at a kolto station, hit it, and the three DPS not tanking destroy the adds.

The desert boss in Meltdown is not that big a deal. Ortuno and Jos/Valk have little margin for error.

 

Honestly, I think many of the issues encountered in a TFP are from people expecting to keep playing out their 'lone wolf' fantasies.

True enough. Just kicked a level 30 Marauder from Foundry after "she" said "she" knew it (despite the fact the she tried to go through the locked door near the ship's bridge before the conversation with the captain at the beginning), then ran off alone twice to aggro groups, second time getting "her"self killed.

 

And I'm sure many have experienced doing a tac with a lowbie who asks for heals despite that the group has no healing-type AC in it, let alone a full-on healer.

Edited November 26, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Kaedusz]

Haven't had any problems on ToFN.

A few minor setbacks but that just makes things interesting.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Halinalle]

Tacticals... stopped playing them after 4.0 (through GF I mean, because I still play them with a friend and 2 companions and we have no troubles).

No idea what's broken when you group with random people, but something is because they get unplayable.

 

So until they fix it, we're finishing our weekly that way.

 

Maybe because you don't have 2 heal companions to heal you through mechanics you should follow?

[NeuroticCupcake]

Pro-Tip: When the queue pops and you see everyone's roles, hit CANCEL rather than ACCEPT if it doesn't at least include one moderately-leveled healer and/or tank, depending on your preferences. Or even better, actually queue as a moderately-or-better-leveled healer and/or tank like I do. And then don't accept any queues that don't consist of your counter role.

 

It beats getting in, failing, and then being locked out for... however long the lockout is; a number I'm completely oblivious to because when it happens I just get disgusted with the coding of Group Finder and log off for the day.

Edited November 26, 2015 by NeuroticCupcake

[thelordofhate]

"I got one shotted by a trash mob! Wheeeeee! I LOVE this game! I'm having SO MUCH FUN!" said no one ever.

 

FIX.FLASHPOINTS.

[PulseRazor]

When things get dicey I will start inspecting and looking at achievement points, in a lot of cases I have seen players who are literally in their first flashpoint.

 

I am finding the most problems with tfp's on my Gunslinger. It isn't nearly as powerful as my Sniper of the same spec but I will always run into trouble with agro on the GS, even when I am not using sweeping gunfire and focusing on the mobs that everyone else is focusing on. After I get aggo I might have a chance to use my agro dump, but im just going to pick up more agro around the next corner, and I will die. Can not complete TFP with my gunslinger as long as that class has superior dps it does not bode well in a froup without a dedicated tank that knows how to hold agro. Interestingly, My sentinel has no problem even if I somehow end up tanking the whole run without access to a taunt.

 

Ultimately it seems that people can agree that it is new players and inexperience that is the barrier to success in this entry-level group content, so we can thank 4.0x companion power for this, because no new player is ever going to need to learn their class with companions that are simply too good to ever give them an opportunity to go more then a few skills deep into a rotation.

 

 

 

One thing I would like to point out is that these Kolto Stations are not some Health Turret that someone needs to 'man' because a lot of people think they are, I have had people say "ranged dps has kolto" or "I'll do the kolto stations' - Please stop that.

 

Pro-Tip: When the queue pops and you see everyone's roles, hit CANCEL rather than ACCEPT if it doesn't at least include one moderately-leveled healer and/or tank, depending on your preferences. Or even better, actually queue as a moderately-or-better-leveled healer and/or tank like I do. And then don't accept any queues that don't consist of your counter role.

 

It beats getting in, failing, and then being locked out for... however long the lockout is; a number I'm completely oblivious to because when it happens I just get disgusted with the coding of Group Finder and log off for the day.

 

This really does seem like an exploit to me, and people are just going to cancel everytime they don't see a team with 3 65's in it including a tank and a healer. I have seen these que popups get declined dozens of times in a row, the only way to stop it was to not join the ques. These ques need to be 'blind' so people cant exploit them this way

Edited November 28, 2015 by PulseRazor

[branmakmuffin]

One thing I would like to point out is that these Kolto Stations are not some Health Turret that someone needs to 'man' because a lot of people think they are, I have had people say "ranged dps has kolto" or "I'll do the kolto stations' - Please stop that.

That has to be one of the most nonsensical things I have ever read regarding tactical FPs. No, someone does not have to dedicate 100% of their time to working the koltos, but someone has to be "the healer" or you run into the situation where someone uses one then someone else uses another one immediately afterwards, thus needlessly putting it on cool down, or the situation where no one uses them because everyone thinks someone else is going to do it.

 

This really does seem like an exploit to me, and people are just going to cancel everytime they don't see a team with 3 65's in it including a tank and a healer. I have seen these que popups get declined dozens of times in a row

Dozens of times. Hyperbole does not help you make your case. I would say the most declines I have seen is about 5. I'll say maybe you have seen a dozen, but not dozens.

 

the only way to stop it was to not join the ques. These ques need to be 'blind' so people cant exploit them this way

It is clearly not an exploit, since the queue list displays the name, class, level and role of each player, along with a decline button.

Edited November 28, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Knockerz]

As i see it, there are two main things i find problematic.

 

1. Some are much harder than others.

2. They are NOT role neutral.

 

To expand my point of view.

 

1. A lot of Higher level FPs was build with idea that players already know what to do and have certain skills.

By me, solution is let TFP be accessible by level. 20lvl player will not get into Bloor Hunt or Maelstrom prison, but will get into Athis or hammer station like it was before.

 

2. I fail to see how it can ever be truly "role neutral", there will be always player who will have to TANK boss and player who will have to HEAL or use healing stations. Yes you can join as group of four DPS. But game will force some of you into role anyway, even if only for part time, and you have to play that role or you wipe. If you get group of people who DONT want to tank or heal, you are screwed.

 

So to summarize it, If all group will only act as DPS role, they will never make it = it is not role neutral.

 

Pretty much this. I suppose developers can add kolto stations everywhere so that you don't really need a healer or a gsi droid like healer. A of tactical flashpoints don't work when you have four players who only want to dps or none can heal. You can get by without a tank, but you can't run them without a healer. I suppose you could also use a companion. Personally, I don't like the new tactical warzones. Some of the old maps don't work well with only four dps. Then the group has problems with lowbies who die on boss mechanics. I much prefer the old tactical where you separated max and semi max level characters from lowbies.

 

I only ran a few tacticals and after a few wipes either due to lack of healer or lowbies dying to boss mechanics I didn't bother with them anymore. Now all I do is pvp like back when 50 was max level.

[Celeryherring]

I think that lowbies and highbies just don't mix well, and not necessarily because of inexperience (god knows I have played with some uncapable 65s). A bolstered lvl 20-30 tank - no matter how good the player is - can't keep aggro against a lvl 65 that has access to a full rotation, while the tank will be using basic attack for a lot of time, and will lack a bunch of aggro skills. It doesn't work unless the lvl 65 holds off, which makes FPs longer, harder, and ultimately a chore.

 

I know "you're not supposed to need a tank", but if you don't have a healer (which is most of the time, in my experience), you want at least a tanking class to keep encounters under control.

 

I understand the efforts behind the FP changes. FPs pop now way more often and that's a good thing; turning them into a frustrating experience 50% of the time isn't.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Celeryherring

[AlrikFassbauer]

I think that lowbies and highbies just don't mix well, and not necessarily because of inexperience (god knows I have played with some uncapable 65s). A bolstered lvl 20-30 tank - no matter how good the player is - can't keep aggro against a lvl 65 that has access to a full rotation, while the tank will be using basic attack for a lot of time, and will lack a bunch of aggro skills. It doesn't work unless the lvl 65 holds off, which makes FPs longer, harder, and ultimately a chore.

 

Good point.

 

Mixing to many levels in tacticals is a bit like mixing so many levels in those few PvP brackets left. ( There used to be some more PvP brackets. )

[NeuroticCupcake]

This really does seem like an exploit to me, and people are just going to cancel everytime they don't see a team with 3 65's in it including a tank and a healer. I have seen these que popups get declined dozens of times in a row, the only way to stop it was to not join the ques. These ques need to be 'blind' so people cant exploit them this way

1) It's not an exploit. Quit using words you don't understand.

2) No sane, non-elitist douchebag is going to turn down a queue that lacks 3 65s. They will, however, turn down queues with nothing but damage dealers. Don't like those times of problems? Play something other than a damage dealer yourself. You have no one to blame but yourself for a lack of healers or tanks queueing.

[Ghisallo]

Yeah they can help us here by boosting players more and dropping the enemies health abit.

If this mechanic is to stay because way too many wipes and i have been with lower levels that knew what to do.

Just could not take the hit took hours to finish.

 

Or they can realize that the level range they have is borked and/or the number of bolstered people who can be in the same group. It's not simply a matter of power, its a matter of knowledge. I have been in bolster groups that while hard going succeeded because the players knew not only the encounters already but the classes (alts). When a new player gets, essentially, thrown into the deep end at low level you have to expect it to go pear shaped when you have no control over how many such characters end up in the mix.

[DakhathKilrathi]

Literally none, huh.

 

So in your experience, the average random PUGs could handle Ortuno or that Meltdown desert boss as a 4xDPS group?

 

Prior to 4.0 when useless lowbies started showing up in the groups? Yeah. Did both of them a few times with a full DPS group.

[TitusOfTides]

You made it past Ortuno and wiped on the final boss? Does not compute.

 

Maybe not the last one. It was the cyborg Selkath you have to walk under the flames. Group got so close a handful of times, but eventually I was all alone.

[branmakmuffin]

Maybe not the last one. It was the cyborg Selkath you have to walk under the flames. Group got so close a handful of times, but eventually I was all alone.

That is indeed the last boss. Someone must've been actively kiting him away from the fire to mess it up, or something else equally goofy, given that the group was able to get past Ortuno.

 

Literally none, huh.

 

So in your experience, the average random PUGs could handle Ortuno or that Meltdown desert boss as a 4xDPS group?

That guy was clearly just waving his epeen. I agree that your average random group of DPS-only PUGs could not handle Ortuno pre-4.0 and certainly cannot handle him now. Desert boss, probably not, either.

Edited December 1, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[JeKoCZ]

After a whole evening spent carrying low levels (Somehow got matched with a lv14 for Korriban Incursion) for the weekly, I'm afraid of going there ever again. As a main tank I don't mind doing all the dirty work all the time, but these tacticals are all but fun as of today. Even if bolstered, anything below lv30, they go down in three basic attacks from standard mobs. They die even before engaging the boss, they don't bother pulling entire rooms while coming back to where they died forcing me to do backflips and barrell rolls to try and save the day. A companion with lv1 influence is more efficient and less dumb. At least they stalk your butt and usually don't wander around cluelessly or walking down some cliffs.

[Taemien]

I just came back to SWTOR after stopping playing shortly after 3.0 though to be honest, I didn't really play much then, most of my time was when the game first came out.

 

I did a few Flashpoints by queuing solo and got grouped with 3 others. I will say this.. it has been a bit frustrating. And the funny part is, its not because I don't know the mechanics. I've been playing MMO's for fifteen years and have done a little bit of everything. A few interesting mechanics here and there isn't new to me.

 

But some players struggle badly. When I've solo queued I think the groups it's placed me with have only succeeded about a third of the time. And when they do succeed its because someone drops out and is either replaced by someone 'better' (or luckier), or by someone's companion.

 

Three of my friends get back into the game as well. We ran like 6 flashpoints, one right after another. Only one flashpoint came up that we had done before, Hammer Station. The others we've never done. We didn't know the fights. We didn't know the mechanics. We went 6 and 6 for completion.

 

The difference is these guys are ones who I have been gaming with for many years. One is a best friend of nearly 26 years, and the other two are those that I met in the Army about 8 years ago.

 

So what was the makeup? Sith Juggarnaut (DPS spec and gear), Sith Marauder, Operative (DoT spec), and Assassin (DPS spec). So basically 4 DPS with somewhat tankness (no threat though), and a half healer (actually I did most of the healing on my marauder through the kolto tanks).

 

I'm going to say from my experience that most of these things are doable with random groups.

 

The issue I had with pickup groups is many don't pay attention. I saw a guy standing in some green stuff taking damage. All they had to do to survive was click one of the many unrefined kolto tanks that were everywhere in this particular flashpoint. In fact he was damn near standing on one. He sat there and died. Then later said the flashpoint was too rough and left before we even attempted a boss. I thought it was easier than the Korriban starting area.

 

There was one flashpoint where the pick up group struggled on the second boss. Tank couldn't hold threat. Sniper couldn't use the kolto tanks because of taking agro.. I basically told the tank to DPS, told the Sniper to tank, and that I would heal by using the tanks.

 

At first it failed. Not because it was a bad plan, but because no one followed it. So I asked the group what was wrong. With no response, I laid down exactly what I wanted everyone to do when. This time they followed it. And we completed the encounter.

 

I could be wrong. I haven't seen every Flashpoint yet. But some of these don't seem as hard as the people who up and leave after one death make it out to be. Here's what I think players should do:

 

1. Don't give up. Not every group is a carry group. Sometimes you gotta work together. Up and leaving doesn't make that flashpoint easier. You may get it again. Might as well learn it or teach others how to do it. It will help you and everyone in the long run.

2. Form a plan. Sometimes you have to think outside the box when certain class combos happen.

3. Pay attention to whats going on around you. Some bosses can be interrupted, when they can, you probably should.

 

Obviously not every group will work well. This is due to personality conflicts, gumption, and resolve more so than your class make up. Again I haven't seen all of the flashpoints yet, I -could- be wrong. But I've been doing MMOs for a bit. The stuff in SWTOR isn't quite as... involving as some other games I've played in the last few years.

[Rabenschwinge]

I am inclined to say that, for low level players without a level 65 to carry them through, certain flashpoints have become straight impossible. The experience as a player does not matter. A low level player does not seem to be able to pull there weight in a flashpoint.

 

Detailed Example: Final Boss in Maelstrom Prison

 

An example would be the Maelstrom prison, the fight against Kilran. I was there in a group with three damage dealers ranging from level 32 to 50 and a level 23 healer. A snipe from Kilran would kill the lower two team members with a single one shot. The penetrating blasts go through any obstacles once initiated and took more than half the health from any team members. You are constantly slowed and limited in your movement in so far that you cannot allow Kilran to have a line of sight for even a split second when you're crawling for a healing terminal and that while he moves unrestraint.

 

We tried a good dozen times. We improved our tactics at every attempt, the one who had aggro always took cover while the others attacked. But it just wasn't enough. You cannot always break a line of sight in time, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about the penetrating blasts. Some of the obstacles do not work reliably and he snipes through them once he started charging the snipe.

 

While I rarely give up on a Flashpoint, particularly when I am in a group with good communication, where every single player is willing to learn, improve and admit their own mistakes, we gave up when we stumbled over a bug: Summoning a repair droid in the hall way, outside of the room where the final fight commences, aggros Kilran, even if far out of range. We all had broken gear and no way to repair it other than running back to the start of the flashpoint.

 

For comparison: For two level 65 players with companions it would be a walk in the park. I would probably be able to solo Kilran with a 65 and companion in a tactical (though it's a close call because you cannot use the healing terminals when you're not grouped).

 

 

A different observation I've made is the number of rage quits that has recently raised excessively. Personally I always try my very best to pull things through. Recently, when it gets tough and I am on a 65 I basically wait for someone to quit, so that I can pull out my companion and have an easy play. Sure, a companion has no idea about positioning and the like, always stands where he is least supposed to, but there is so much reserve in their power that it's still a lot easier. There is no way twenty-something healer can even remotely keep up with a healing companion.

 

When the flashpoint is Kaon Under Siege, Lost Island, or one that belongs to Shadow of Revan it is not uncommon for folks to quit immediately after zoning in. The day before yesterday I zoned into an (Imperial) Tython Flashpoint, had one quit at once. I waited for the remaining folks to load and get their act together. When I made a mistake and got myself needlessly kills the remainders of the group immediately left the flashpoint. I tried to continue in solo - the normal mobs throughout the flashpoints are not a problem with companion backup - the first boss fight proved tricky, however. I didn't realize that the healing terminals in a tactical flashpoint don't work when you're not in a group. The fight when fine when the adds spawned. I may have tried to run down and wait as I would have in hard mode but to stand that kind of damage with a marksmanship sniper (who is unable to take cover due to the floor effects) was impossible. However, it was also clear that I could have done it with my companion and no further assistance, if I could just have used the healing terminals! And that's where people run off from!

 

There seems to a basic attitude towards: Pace is the only thing that matters in flashpoint. The only thing that people expect from a tank is to carry them through fast. Which makes it difficult for inexperienced tanks. If you stand there for a moment check the mobs and create a plan on how you're going to engage them and hold aggro, in the vast majority of cases your group will give you two seconds, one time in the flashpoint and then simply run past you. Particularly experienced players will, because the more experienced a player is the less patient he is.

 

Example: Czerka Corporate Labs

 

A typical case that is most devastating when an experienced player who does not look left and right and spools off learned tactics disregarding the tactical situation leads to devestating effects is the stair case at the beginning of Czerka Corporate Labs. You need the key cards and you can get them without fighting the groups. Now an experienced player races forwards and makes the complicated jumps while the group is still gathering loot and healing up. Meaning for the rest of the group it's impossible to discern where he went. I have seen insults being thrown around, seen it take ten minutes to a quarter of an hour to go down that stair case, deaths, and the morale in the team completely devestated (yes, when you're doing a flashpoint morale in the team is important. A player who is pissed off will not focus as much as when it was going smoothly, no matter how professional their attitude is).

 

All to bypass four or five groups which you can easily defeat within two minutes as a team. I've had a player actually complaining that the others kept on fighting while he wanted to interact with a key card. To actually stick with the team and make the fights go faster was something that never occured to him. Heaven was I glad when when that jerk did a rage quit after the first failed attempt on the first boss. I could pull out my companion and we finished the rest in easy mode. If you're a level 17 healer it's not wise to throw insults at team members and be loud mouthed; while a companion does not mind their positioning they are still far superior. A shortcut only makes sense if it's actually shorter than going through the mobs! And a flashpoint is not a race you play against each other, it is meant to be played with each other!

 

 

In short, I think that there is an elitist group of players of the second generation, who is outstandingly good and repeating learned tactics, but unable to adjust to the situation and adapt to varying tactical sitations and group composition. This group of players treats a flashpoint often as a competition between the players and as a race to be the fastest at any new terminal, but is entirely unable to deal with situations outside of the plan. Which is exactly what operations teach those players. When they came into the game tactics for operations where already refined, any deviation causes a wipe. There is hardly any space for tactical variation, assuming you do operations at the edge of what the respective guild is capable off. That a non-ideal group composition is easy to deal with if you adapt is a concept that is far beyond most players. The more experienced they are, the less inclined to grasp the concept variation they are. Or that sticking with the team is more important than bypassing enemies.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Rabenschwinge

[Fevee]

Going through another trainwreck of a healerless flashpoint just now does the disfortune of reminding me how flashpoints were busted with this attempt to make them role neutral.

 

That was a bad idea, SWTOR, please fix it.

[Jedi_riches]

As I posted on another thread the other day, the problem in my mind is the fact that unlike KDY these were never intended to be role neutral or done by lower levels.

 

I ran a flashpoint last week with 2 guild mates, one was level 15, one was level 65 and we pugged the last one who if I recall was 65 I was level 40ish sorc (DPS spec, I can't heal to save my life ).

 

We got Cadmeniu and I lost track of the times that the level 15 guildy died he seemed neither to have the health or the DPS to pull him through too much, there was no tank or proper heals which means my squshy sorc got the brunt of some mobs along the way and I died a handful of times, heavens knows what the pug guy though since he was in a run with 3 from the same guild.

 

But the level 15 has hardly any decent attacks and cannot put anywhere near a proper rotation out, where as if they do higher level flashpoints they were originally designed to be done where you could start to put a decent rotation down.

 

Now as to how we can "fix" this problem, honestly I don't know, if you reduced HP or damage enemies do than will people think they are too easy and stop queing.

 

Or perhaps there could be like a temporary bar granting "access" to moves the player should have if they were running the flashpoint at the original intended level.

[ShawDou]

Now as to how we can "fix" this problem, honestly I don't know, if you reduced HP or damage enemies do than will people think they are too easy and stop queing.

 

Or perhaps there could be like a temporary bar granting "access" to moves the player should have if they were running the flashpoint at the original intended level.

 

It was suggested on few threads. Keep it same, but let lover level players unlock FPS as it was before based on their level so 20lvl will not go into 55lvl FP but get only 15-25 lvl FP.

[Halinalle]

Cademimu was originally designed for level 28-32, right?

 

That should be faceroll with three level 65s in group. Unless everyone is new to the FP...