Force Speed Cooldown

[DarenLoot]

My two cents from PvP perspective:

 

I have to agree with KeyboardNinja, this increased CD to Force Speed is a disaster. I also would want to point out that this drop in mobility is actually even higher than it appears, at least in PvP, due to the very poor synergy with the utility options we have.

 

Instead of 15s cooldown and root removal on Force Speed after two utility points spent (one utility point spent in Avoidance/Celerity to reduce the cd by 5 sec and one in Emersion/Egress to remove roots), now we have to spend THREE points (one extra in Phasing Phantasm/One with the Shadows) in order to obtain a mobility equivalent to what we used to have (one root remover every 15 sec).

 

Silly me, back in the day I thought two utility points was excessive, and now we have to spend three. I would really want to know who thought forcing us to spend three utility points instead of two to get same result is a mobility improvement?

 

Here are couple of options how to fix this:

- Give Assassins/Shadows back Force Speed the way it was (20s base cd dropping to 15s with Avoidance/Celerity), and increase that Phantom Stride cd to 1 minute, or at least

- Combine Emersion and Phasing Phantasm in one utility/skill, so we dont need to spend three utility points just to have some base mobility in PvP.

 

As a side note, since 3.0 hit there was one thing that improved for Deception and that was it's sustained dmg. That came with a price though to it's burst dmg to honor the law of equivalent exchange and not get op in the process. On the other hand deception was and still is an utility spec, it doesn't shine either in dmg output, burst, or defense. It's use is very tied up to it's mobility and good use of DCs and it's highly situational.

 

That being said, I took a look at the Discipline window and start counting the utility points I'm only using to bring back the utility deception needs inherently to be able to work... And, for me, there were 4 utility points (out of 7) that were initially on deception skill tree only and find myself wasting points in things that make this spec functional.

 

What I'm trying to get at is this nerf that costs us another utility point has a greater impact than might appear at the first glance.

[Lodinn]

This opinion seems to be unpopular, but...

 

I've tanked a bit with my new sin. Sorry to say, KBN, but i bet most tanks out there don't monitor Dark Bulwark/Ward stacks as closely as you do. Not even close so much attention to defensives/procs to cripple my ability to think about my resources in a fight. I mean, it's sub-optimal, but I like it to be on my fingertips.

 

Given that, i didn't notice that drastic mobility drop for my assassin. I barely dps on sin, and Deception now seems to be way better than Hatred which wasn't a thing for too long in PvE, so I can actually speak only about tanking perspective. So, what have we got with 4.0?

 

Sins:

Pros: A bit more dynamic combat. 50% movement speed boost (nearly mandatory) half of the time. Jump back to the target, which is more handy than force speed in some conditions (i.e. M&B if you work this out with co-tank properly which you usually do with PT/jugg).

Cons: Very few options when picking utilities, general feeling of a little utility points starving. More similarity to other classes. Control over the movement takes more resources.

 

Is it good or bad? For me, it's just different. Only fight where i can actually feel crippled might be solotanking Bestia on Council NiM (not sure if FS cd will be enough). For most of the fights I've been in so far it feels just as fluent but less controllable (each teleport feels bit hard on camera position and rotation, can't be very safe with it, bit harder to turn the boss etc etc). Overall it's an unneeded change of playstyle, not exactly bad but i understand how crippling can it feel (I myself cried under lots of posts on mara forums cause Anni 10-30m leap range is just killing me, not to say about weird rotation ).

 

Juggs:

Ermm... What? Mandatory def and huge mobility increase for juggs makes them kings of the current expansion. Well, they kind of deserved it after being semi-forgotten for a long time, but still...

Pros: Mobility on everything: Dash, Enrage, Endure Pain... I'm taking out Intercede from this list cause it actually has nearly the same use as Phasewalk for sins (except in certain situations it's more controllable again). You don't want to bring cleave and/or circles to the group, do you? Interceding on offtank can be useful for mitigation but very tricky due to aggro. If utility would increase damage reduction and INCREASE threat or keep it the same it'd be a great one. Otherwise its' use in PvE is restricted but not that Juggs will miss it now.

Cons: None.

Oh yes, and Dash now acts as DCD as well.

 

PTs:

I must admit I don't roll PTs. At all. Not a single one.

But from changes I see they were seemingly nerfed mobility-wise due to HO cd, HOWEVER (and it's one big HOWEVER) their DPS is insane now, and tanking should be fine for old content as it doesn't require much mobility.

 

Bottom line? Sins were not nerfed as hard, the actual problem is their signature ability set was always defining THE most mobile melee class. Now other classes were given a lot of mobility leaving sins nothing in return.

 

 

In general I disagree, KBN. You still will be dancing around the boss quite fluently. But you will envy juggs who do it just as easy and don't have to care about dcds as much just because your mitigation will be meh with over 2k defense rating, in PVP sins will be good but they will cry looking at opers going rampant; and PTs will be the real clumsies but with 7k dps it won't prevent them to remain the top dps pick. Not sure about tanks tho, juggs will seemingly dominate the 4.0 scene.

 

 

P.S.

Sin dps mitigation? Well it's a joke. Imagine Cora cleaving you. Best solution? Stealth out.

I was able to tank her for half a minute on sniper who has amazing dcds for it after tank died, and with 4.0 dcd reset that duration is likely tripled. Snipers can't survive long continuous pressure like boss autoattacking them (i remember dying to Kephess in TfB a few times to it). Maras can survive almost everything for quite a long time (camo dodges nearly every huge hit in existence or at least reduces it to half). Juggs are quite good as well. Operatives have somewhat better set of dcds than sins. PTs and mercs... Well, don't forget about the problem of unpredictable damage. You screw up and stay in red, tank screws up and cleaves you, lag screws you and keeps in fire for bit too long... If you survive and left at 20% hp, how much would you panic? If Merc/PT stays at 20% you'd be dead eating the same damage without dcds. The only class with far inferior survivability is sorc. Sin is only really good for predictable (near-)oneshots. F/T ones. Compare that to SW/opers... They survive better.

 

[DarenLoot]

This opinion seems to be unpopular, but...

 

I've tanked a bit with my new sin. Sorry to say, KBN, but i bet most tanks out there don't monitor Dark Bulwark/Ward stacks as closely as you do. Not even close so much attention to defensives/procs to cripple my ability to think about my resources in a fight. I mean, it's sub-optimal, but I like it to be on my fingertips.

 

Given that, i didn't notice that drastic mobility drop for my assassin. I barely dps on sin, and Deception now seems to be way better than Hatred which wasn't a thing for too long in PvE, so I can actually speak only about tanking perspective. So, what have we got with 4.0?

 

Sins:

Pros: A bit more dynamic combat. 50% movement speed boost (nearly mandatory) half of the time. Jump back to the target, which is more handy than force speed in some conditions (i.e. M&B if you work this out with co-tank properly which you usually do with PT/jugg).

Cons: Very few options when picking utilities, general feeling of a little utility points starving. More similarity to other classes. Control over the movement takes more resources.

 

Is it good or bad? For me, it's just different. Only fight where i can actually feel crippled might be solotanking Bestia on Council NiM (not sure if FS cd will be enough). For most of the fights I've been in so far it feels just as fluent but less controllable (each teleport feels bit hard on camera position and rotation, can't be very safe with it, bit harder to turn the boss etc etc). Overall it's an unneeded change of playstyle, not exactly bad but i understand how crippling can it feel (I myself cried under lots of posts on mara forums cause Anni 10-30m leap range is just killing me, not to say about weird rotation ).

 

Juggs:

Ermm... What? Mandatory def and huge mobility increase for juggs makes them kings of the current expansion. Well, they kind of deserved it after being semi-forgotten for a long time, but still...

Pros: Mobility on everything: Dash, Enrage, Endure Pain... I'm taking out Intercede from this list cause it actually has nearly the same use as Phasewalk for sins (except in certain situations it's more controllable again). You don't want to bring cleave and/or circles to the group, do you? Interceding on offtank can be useful for mitigation but very tricky due to aggro. If utility would increase damage reduction and INCREASE threat or keep it the same it'd be a great one. Otherwise its' use in PvE is restricted but not that Juggs will miss it now.

Cons: None.

Oh yes, and Dash now acts as DCD as well.

 

PTs:

I must admit I don't roll PTs. At all. Not a single one.

But from changes I see they were seemingly nerfed mobility-wise due to HO cd, HOWEVER (and it's one big HOWEVER) their DPS is insane now, and tanking should be fine for old content as it doesn't require much mobility.

 

Bottom line? Sins were not nerfed as hard, the actual problem is their signature ability set was always defining THE most mobile melee class. Now other classes were given a lot of mobility leaving sins nothing in return.

 

 

In general I disagree, KBN. You still will be dancing around the boss quite fluently. But you will envy juggs who do it just as easy and don't have to care about dcds as much just because your mitigation will be meh with over 2k defense rating, in PVP sins will be good but they will cry looking at opers going rampant; and PTs will be the real clumsies but with 7k dps it won't prevent them to remain the top dps pick. Not sure about tanks tho, juggs will seemingly dominate the 4.0 scene.

 

 

P.S.

Sin dps mitigation? Well it's a joke. Imagine Cora cleaving you. Best solution? Stealth out.

I was able to tank her for half a minute on sniper who has amazing dcds for it after tank died, and with 4.0 dcd reset that duration is likely tripled. Snipers can't survive long continuous pressure like boss autoattacking them (i remember dying to Kephess in TfB a few times to it). Maras can survive almost everything for quite a long time (camo dodges nearly every huge hit in existence or at least reduces it to half). Juggs are quite good as well. Operatives have somewhat better set of dcds than sins. PTs and mercs... Well, don't forget about the problem of unpredictable damage. You screw up and stay in red, tank screws up and cleaves you, lag screws you and keeps in fire for bit too long... If you survive and left at 20% hp, how much would you panic? If Merc/PT stays at 20% you'd be dead eating the same damage without dcds. The only class with far inferior survivability is sorc. Sin is only really good for predictable (near-)oneshots. F/T ones. Compare that to SW/opers... They survive better.

 

I don't actually believe people dislike the changes made to assassin for pve. Losing some utility points and changing the way you move a bit, while adding a bit of more dmg potential to the class is nothing to be whining about.

 

The problem here is with pvp. And even this it's not a con for either Hatred or Darkness (as I could see from the first class experimentation shared on the forums). The only spec that suffered was Deception which is inherently a mobility-utility burst spec. Well, at the moment it's debatable if Deception can sill be considered burst spec. But with that aside both utility and mobility aspects of the class were hit pretty hard with the changes. Well, for me it's sort of like losing 2 defensive utilities just to compensate for the movement nerf. While the overall dmg output (concealment excluded) of the other classes increased, losing defensive ability on this scale doesn't go well with a spec that has it's defenses mostly on utilities. Take that from deception and it's goes down like any other low armor class. Also most of the other classes had their mobility improved, so staying on target with almost the same mobility capabilities (changed but sort of the same) might have gotten the class into possible challenges anyaways, things that would require to rethink how you approach another player etc.

[Iserahn]

There are no words to describe how upset I am at this change. I'm going to try though.

 

Let's start with the objective problems. Objectively, this makes shadows/assassins the least mobile melee class in the game, and it isn't even close. Operative mobility is kind of out of control right now, with the double roll on a (not nerfed!) 10 second CD, and a targeted friendly/enemy teleport on a 45 second cooldown. Juggernauts have Force Charge on a 15 second CD, but practically closer to 9-10 due to the damage proc, and they have a controllable reset proc on their leap. Also they have a separate friendly leap. Marauders have a 15 second leap cooldown, but they also have a 45 second CD on a secondary speed boost. Powertechs got a nerfed Hydraulics cooldown (to 45 seconds), but the duration remains extremely long, and more importantly, they have a baseline 15 second enemy leap.

 

Shadows have a (talented) 25 second Force Speed and a 30 second enemy teleport, making the average time between "mobility" windows about 13.75 seconds. That's barely less than Jet Charge, and it completely ignores Hydraulics. Or, if you're into marauders, it's barely less than Force Charge, and it completely ignores Force Camo. The point being that shadow mobility is now extremely limited.

 

You'll notice, by the way, that I'm ignoring Phase Walk. This is because a "recall" teleport has been and will always be nearly useless in PvE, and highly situational in PvP. In fact, with the addition of a targeted teleport and the outright removal of Shadow Shelter (the new utility is worthless), it is very unlikely that I will ever use Phase Walk in PvE.

 

In short, shadows have gone from being a highly mobile melee class to the least mobile melee in the game. Our mobility is almost exactly at the same level that 1.0 powertech tanks had!

 

Furthermore, shadow mobility is now more akin to a cooldown that must be saved and used jealously, rather than a tool we use to reposition dynamically. This makes PvE tanking extremely difficult and even stressful, since I now have to plan out not only cooldowns, threat and mechanics, but also mobility windows where I can sanely reposition. If something happens outside my mobility window, or if I need to move unexpectedly, I just basically have to derpily crawl into position, lugging my saber behind me.

 

And this is the important difference between the current mobility story and the 3.x era (with a 15 second talented Force Speed cooldown): two abilities on a 30 second CD is not as fluid as one ability on a 15 second CD. Having to keep track of which one I get to use "next" is really frustrating. This is even ignoring the fact that Force Speed has a large array of uses that a targeted teleport does not (this is most noticeable on fights like Toth and Zorn or Brontes), leading to some really pathological scenarios where I teleport to an enemy that I'm already standing in front of, just to get the speed boost.

 

Now, the subjective side… Shadows have always been highly agile, melee skirmishers. Part of the strength that shadows brought was the ability to quickly and flexibly move around the battlefield. That signature element of our class has been with us since launch, and now it is basically gone. 10 additional seconds on a speed boost may not sound like a long time, but it feels like eternity. I barely even feel like I'm playing a shadow anymore. It's like a weird sort of 1.0-era powertech with robes and a lightsaber.

 

I understand that the nerf was intended to counter the mobility addition of the teleport for shadows and Phase Walk for sages, but it's very heavy-handed. Phase Walk shouldn't really be considered part of the mobility picture for PvE shadows, since its already very situational uses are now superseded by the teleport. Also, with the fact that the operative roll wasn't nerfed, it feels a bit unfair. I can think of a couple of ways to resolve this:

 

• Add a 10 second CD reduction on Force Speed to the shadow/assassin passive, leaving the mobility reduction in place for sages (keeping them in line with the other ranged classes) while restoring melee-appropriate mobility to shadows
  
• Increase the Force Speed cooldown reduction talent from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. 15 would be even better, but 10 seconds would at least bring the CD down to 20 seconds, which is what it was during the 2.0 era.
  

 

The tl;dr here is that the change hurts shadows considerably, both in an objective balance sense and in a subjective thematic feel sense. It makes it considerably harder to do my job as a tank in PvE, and it makes shadow DPS both the lowest mobility and the lowest survivability melee in the game (not a good combination). I understand the desire to compensate for the addition of the teleport, but the teleport replaces Phase Walk in PvE (and mostly in PvP as well), it doesn't complement it. Force Speed should not have been nerfed for shadows/assassins.

 

some things i can't help but mention:

 

1)assassin begin the fight ON their targets while the other classes 40m away from them,a warrior's charge is essentially 'wasted' due to the fact that he starts the fight away from the target , yes stealth is a replacement for mobility and you take it out of the equation, i agree without stealth assassins would be a bad joke in pvp, but they do have stealth

 

2)assassins have access to a considerable array of crowd control abilities,unlike Juggs and maras you compared them, they can also do some damage from 10-30 range, regardless if your target is stunned you won't need to go anywhere

[Lanzend]

some things i can't help but mention:

 

1)assassin begin the fight ON their targets while the other classes 40m away from them,a warrior's charge is essentially 'wasted' due to the fact that he starts the fight away from the target , yes stealth is a replacement for mobility and you take it out of the equation, i agree without stealth assassins would be a bad joke in pvp, but they do have stealth

 

2)assassins have access to a considerable array of crowd control abilities,unlike Juggs and maras you compared them, they can also do some damage from 10-30 range, regardless if your target is stunned you won't need to go anywhere

 

So what about scouops then?

[Aelanis]

This opinion seems to be unpopular, but...

 

I've tanked a bit with my new sin. Sorry to say, KBN, but i bet most tanks out there don't monitor Dark Bulwark/Ward stacks as closely as you do. Not even close so much attention to defensives/procs to cripple my ability to think about my resources in a fight. I mean, it's sub-optimal, but I like it to be on my fingertips.

 

Given that, i didn't notice that drastic mobility drop for my assassin. I barely dps on sin, and Deception now seems to be way better than Hatred which wasn't a thing for too long in PvE, so I can actually speak only about tanking perspective. So, what have we got with 4.0?

 

Sins:

Pros: A bit more dynamic combat. 50% movement speed boost (nearly mandatory) half of the time. Jump back to the target, which is more handy than force speed in some conditions (i.e. M&B if you work this out with co-tank properly which you usually do with PT/jugg).

Cons: Very few options when picking utilities, general feeling of a little utility points starving. More similarity to other classes. Control over the movement takes more resources.

 

Is it good or bad? For me, it's just different. Only fight where i can actually feel crippled might be solotanking Bestia on Council NiM (not sure if FS cd will be enough). For most of the fights I've been in so far it feels just as fluent but less controllable (each teleport feels bit hard on camera position and rotation, can't be very safe with it, bit harder to turn the boss etc etc). Overall it's an unneeded change of playstyle, not exactly bad but i understand how crippling can it feel (I myself cried under lots of posts on mara forums cause Anni 10-30m leap range is just killing me, not to say about weird rotation ).

 

Juggs:

Ermm... What? Mandatory def and huge mobility increase for juggs makes them kings of the current expansion. Well, they kind of deserved it after being semi-forgotten for a long time, but still...

Pros: Mobility on everything: Dash, Enrage, Endure Pain... I'm taking out Intercede from this list cause it actually has nearly the same use as Phasewalk for sins (except in certain situations it's more controllable again). You don't want to bring cleave and/or circles to the group, do you? Interceding on offtank can be useful for mitigation but very tricky due to aggro. If utility would increase damage reduction and INCREASE threat or keep it the same it'd be a great one. Otherwise its' use in PvE is restricted but not that Juggs will miss it now.

Cons: None.

Oh yes, and Dash now acts as DCD as well.

 

PTs:

I must admit I don't roll PTs. At all. Not a single one.

But from changes I see they were seemingly nerfed mobility-wise due to HO cd, HOWEVER (and it's one big HOWEVER) their DPS is insane now, and tanking should be fine for old content as it doesn't require much mobility.

 

Bottom line? Sins were not nerfed as hard, the actual problem is their signature ability set was always defining THE most mobile melee class. Now other classes were given a lot of mobility leaving sins nothing in return.

 

 

In general I disagree, KBN. You still will be dancing around the boss quite fluently. But you will envy juggs who do it just as easy and don't have to care about dcds as much just because your mitigation will be meh with over 2k defense rating, in PVP sins will be good but they will cry looking at opers going rampant; and PTs will be the real clumsies but with 7k dps it won't prevent them to remain the top dps pick. Not sure about tanks tho, juggs will seemingly dominate the 4.0 scene.

 

 

P.S.

Sin dps mitigation? Well it's a joke. Imagine Cora cleaving you. Best solution? Stealth out.

I was able to tank her for half a minute on sniper who has amazing dcds for it after tank died, and with 4.0 dcd reset that duration is likely tripled. Snipers can't survive long continuous pressure like boss autoattacking them (i remember dying to Kephess in TfB a few times to it). Maras can survive almost everything for quite a long time (camo dodges nearly every huge hit in existence or at least reduces it to half). Juggs are quite good as well. Operatives have somewhat better set of dcds than sins. PTs and mercs... Well, don't forget about the problem of unpredictable damage. You screw up and stay in red, tank screws up and cleaves you, lag screws you and keeps in fire for bit too long... If you survive and left at 20% hp, how much would you panic? If Merc/PT stays at 20% you'd be dead eating the same damage without dcds. The only class with far inferior survivability is sorc. Sin is only really good for predictable (near-)oneshots. F/T ones. Compare that to SW/opers... They survive better.

 

I'm going to have to disagree about Jugs being hands-down superior to Assassins. Assassins can handle a very large number of mechanics in unique ways that neither other tank can, which can make some bosses unbearably easy, and give you a lot of breathing room on others. Yes, Jugs are amazingly mobile now, which has been a huge weakness in the past, but I certainly wouldn't count Assassins out, especially not when you look at how well they can soak up damage without cooldowns.

 

P.S.

Yeah, Assassin DPS active mitigation is somewhat lackluster, if you discount Shroud, but the passive mitigation for Deception is borderline ridiculous. We'll have to see how Hatred fares in less spiky content before I make a judgment there, though.

[DarenLoot]

some things i can't help but mention:

 

1)assassin begin the fight ON their targets while the other classes 40m away from them,a warrior's charge is essentially 'wasted' due to the fact that he starts the fight away from the target , yes stealth is a replacement for mobility and you take it out of the equation, i agree without stealth assassins would be a bad joke in pvp, but they do have stealth

 

2)assassins have access to a considerable array of crowd control abilities,unlike Juggs and maras you compared them, they can also do some damage from 10-30 range, regardless if your target is stunned you won't need to go anywhere

 

I'm not sure what your 2nd point was, but it a bit off from reality. I mean, "assassins have access to a considerable array of crowd control abilities" is true but juggs (not sure about mara) do have comparable array of cc. They might not have a low slash 4sec mezz on 15sec cooldown but they have an mass aoe 6sec mezz. also jugs have more roots then any assassin spec, and while roots don't keep you out of the game at the same degree as a mezz, they don't build resolve either. They also don't break on dmg taken (i'm refering on the jugg ones: leap, ravage, maybe saber throw).

 

Also not sure what you wanted to say with 10-30m range dmg on assassins... there is no such thing, also juggs and maras have that range way better covered than the assassins. Deception for example has only Low Slash dealing dmg further away than 10m, which is not meant as a dmg deal but a counter kiting ability, it's dmg is poor. Hatred was nerfed to 10m some patches ago, and darkness is a tank spec, never needed that kind of range. Recklessness force lightning or volts it's very situational and you'll most likely not see it use since it's usually a lose of ability.

 

As opposed to that Twin saber throw deals a lot more dmg than low slash for example. Saber throw is also no less then Low Slash. Also both classes have 30m leaps on lower cooldown than assassin's teleport (which also doesn't deal dmg). Not sure if there is more for those two, but even now you can see what you said is not true.

 

Maybe assassins can pull out more dmg then the 2 in 4-10m range, but otherwise maras definitely rack the hell out of assassin's dmg, and juggs are around there too.

Edited October 27, 2015 by DarenLoot

[realleaftea]

Let's clearify a few things:

 

Powertechs:

Jet Charge: 30m leap; 15s cooldown

Hydraulic Overrides: 30% speed boost for 6sec+; immunity vs. slow, root & push; 45s cooldown

Utility - Pneumatic Boots: Permanent 15% speed boost

Utility - Iron Will: -10sec cooldown for Hydraulic Overrides

Utility - Torgue Boosters: +4sec duration for Hydraulic Overrides

Utility - Explored Area: 50% speed boost for 6sec+ (multiple targets) via Stealth Scan (20sec cooldown)

Utility - Efficient Suit: +45% speed boost for Hydraulic Overrides

Utility - Jet Speed: 30% speed boost for 3sec via Jet Charge; duration resetted on taking damage

Almost all attacks have a 30m range

Long lasting stuns via Electro Dart (5sec) and Carbonize (3.5sec AoE stun) via Enhanced Paralytics utility

 

To sum it up:

The Powertechs get all the benefits of a tanky melee class, without suffering the same limitations (i.e. 4m range).

And although it takes several utility points to achieve max. mobility, this class has access to some of the most powerful variants, including a 10sec immunity to slow & push effects every 35sec.

 

Operative:

Exfiltrate: 12m roll; usable twice; 10sec+ cooldown ('+', because the cooldown doesn't start on your first roll)

Holotraverse: 30m teleport; 75% speed boost for 3sec; 45sec cooldown

Utility - Infiltrator: Permanent 15% speed boost

Utility - Hit-&-Run: 50% speed boost for 3sec via Shiv (6sec cooldown)

Utility - Adv. Cloaking: 50% speed boost for 6sec via Cloaking Screen (90sec cooldown)

Option to roll to nearby cover

Stealth to close a gap without being attacked

Heal skills to restore the hitpoints lost from any nonlethal attack that wasn't evaded

Three 30m attacks (Rifle Shot, Snipe & Frag Grenade) and some 10m attacks to be useful outside melee range

 

To sum it up:

Exfiltrate might have the shortest cooldown, but also the shortest distance covered. Holotraverse grants a whooping 75% speed bonus, but doesn't root the target. This class doesn't have many utilities to improve the own mobility, but thanks to stealth, cover and heals, it's a really powerful combination.

 

The most interesting fact is that contrary to other melee classes, the 30m teleport is at a 45sec cooldown, whereas the speed boost (double roll) has the 15sec cooldown instead. IMO, that might be an option for all the other classes as well. But I could also imagine a 30sec/30sec constellation, since this is the only melee class with heal skills.

 

Lastly, IMO it would also be quite flavorful to make the Assassin's Phase Walk an operative skill instead (in form of a holo-droid).

 

Marauder:

Force Charge: 30m leap; 15sec cooldown

Mad Dash: 20m charge as a line-AoE; 45sec cooldown

Force Camouflage: 30% speed boost & immunity vs. control for 4sec; 45sec cooldown

Predation: 50% speed boost for 10sec (whole team); either 30 Fury or 30sec cooldown

Utility - Phantom: Permanent 15% speed boost; +20% speed boost & +2sec duration for Force Camouflage

Utility - Unbound: +30% speed boost for Predation

Force Leap cooldown reset via Force Push (60sec cooldown)

Barely any attack with more than 4m range

No stealth, cover, heal (controllable & effective)

 

To sum it up:

In regard of pure speed bonuses, Marauders have the upper hand. IMO, that's ok, because unlike Assassins, the don't have stealth to rely on and there is no tank option either. However, I could imagine to give Marauders the Warmonger & Seething Hatred utilities, removing Contemplation and one other utility instead.

 

Juggernaut:

Force Charge: 30m leap; 15sec cooldown

Intercede: 30m leap towards a friendly target; 20sec cooldown

Mad Dash: 20m charge as a line-AoE; 45sec cooldown

Utility - Unshackling Enrage: 50% speed boost for 6sec via Enrage (60sec cooldown)

Utility - Warmonger: Taking damage reduces cooldown of Force Leap

Utility - Intercessor: Reduces the cooldown of Intercede by 5sec

Utility - Through Victory: 50% speed boost and immunity vs. slow for 10sec via Endure Pain (60sec cooldown)

Utility - Embolding Scream: 50% speed boost for 8sec via Chilling Scream for everyone except you

Force Leap cooldown reset via Force Push (60sec cooldown)

Barely any attack with more than 4m range

No stealth, cover, heal (controllable & effective)

 

To sum it up:

This class had some hefty drawbacks during 3.0. Due to the lack of both a permanent 15% and a powerful, low-cooldown speed boost, a single slow effect could ruin your day (being kited). The only option was to choose the heroic utility 'Through Victory', but that wasn't even close to a Hydraulic Overrides or other variants. IMO, the new speed boost via Enrage just feels like a half-baked copy of 'Through Victory'.

 

All in all, it's still worse than other classes and I wish BioWare would overhaul this class. The Juggernaut should be a slow, but unstoppable force, so Hydraulic Overrides would make more sense for this class. The most important aspect is the immunity to push and pulls.

 

Assassin:

Force Speed: 150% speed boost for 2sec+; no target required, no min. range, fully controllable; doesn't break stealth; 30sec cooldown

Phantom Stride: 30m teleport; 75% speed boost for 3sec; 30s cooldown

Phase Walk: 60m teleport to marked location; 45s cooldown

Utility - Avoidance: -5sec cooldown for Force Speed

Utility - Obfuscation: Permanent 15% speed boost

Utility - Disjunction: Increases duration of Force Speed by 25% (0.5sec)

Utility - Emersion: Force Speed cancels slow & root; temp. immunity against these effects

Utility - Speed Surge: 50% speed boost for 9sec every 18sec via Shock or Crushing Darkness

Utility - Gait Manipulation: 50% speed boost while Force Cloak is active

Stealth to close a gap without being attacked

Barely any attack with range above 4m, although Shock & Force Lightning are low cooldown attacks (10~30m)

 

Now, let's have a look at the actual complains:

 

Shadows have always been highly agile, melee skirmishers.

Shadows are primarily a stealth class. The main difference between a teleport and Force Speed is that the latter gives the player more control. Whereas other classes have to have a target they can jump on, Force Speed can be used at any time, in any direction at any distance to the target (even not moving at all) and even without breaking stealth.

 

To sum that up: The assassins traded mobility (distance covered) for utility. If Assassins would really be 'melee skirmishers', they would have had a real teleport skill to begin with. (F.e. use teleport to jump in, deal some damage and then teleport back).

 

Let's not forget the ability to use stealth as a gap closer//opener or combat escape. And if you would have considered Speed Surge, you might have recognized that this little utility already grants a 50% speed bonus for 9 out of 18sec. Now go an show me how a Juggernaut achieves this.

 

And that's already the main point: All you do is to talk about cooldown, willingly ignoring all the other aspects.

 

Let's assume a Force Speed with a 15sec cooldown where players lose directional control. In other words, you would have to run for the whole duration in the direction you were facing. Suddenly, you'd get similar problems as a 20m Mad Dash or two successive Exfiltrates. But more importantly, your whole argumentation about "mobility windows" would crumble.

 

And the same is true, if we assume BioWare would change it into a 15sec Phantom Stride and a 45sec Force Speed just to make things similar to the Juggernaut and Marauders who have a 15sec Force Charge and a 45sec Mad Dash.

Edited October 27, 2015 by realleaftea

[KeyboardNinja]

Shadows are primarily a stealth class. The main difference between a teleport and Force Speed is that the latter gives the player more control. Whereas other classes have to have a target they can jump on, Force Speed can be used at any time, in any direction at any distance to the target (even not moving at all) and even without breaking stealth.

 

To sum that up: The assassins traded mobility (distance covered) for utility. If Assassins would really be 'melee skirmishers', they would have had a real teleport skill to begin with. (F.e. use teleport to jump in, deal some damage and then teleport back).

 

And that's already the main point: All you do is to talk about cooldown, willingly ignoring any other aspect.

 

F.e. let's assume a Force Speed with a 15sec cooldown that forces the player to run the whole duration in the direction they were facing. In other words, you'd lose directional control. That would be more similar to a 20m Mad Blitz or two successive Exfiltrates. And suddenly, your whole argumentation crumbles. And the same is true, if we would assume a 15sec Phantom Stride and a 45sec Force Speed, just like the Juggernaut and Marauders have a 15sec Force Charge and a 45sec Mad Blitz.

 

And let's not forget the ability to use stealth as a gap closer or opener. This way, you could 'save' a teleport or speed boost. And if you would have considered Speed Surge, you might have recognized that this little utility already grants a 50% speed bonus for 9 out of 18sec. Now go an show me how a Juggernaut achieves this.

 

All of these are good points, but they are primarily relevant only to PvP. I can't deny that mobility (particularly linear mobility on a low cooldown) has enormously higher value in PvP than PvE, which makes this in general a more interesting discussion in those lights, but it's important not to ignore the other half of the game. No accusations here, just pointing out the biases in our respective assumptions.

 

Stealth is not relevant in PvE. At all. This is probably the most significant difference in this class above all others between the two modes. Stealth is not a gap closer in PvE since you're either a) already in combat (e.g. gap closing mid-fight), b) not the one hitting the boss first (i.e. not a tank), or c) already constrained to start outside melee range (i.e. a tank with Force Pull). Stealth has a minor application in DPS getting set up on a stationary boss just prior to the tank pulling, but the impact is far less than you would expect (ask anyone who played a PvE DPS operative pre-2.0 to see what I mean).

 

Hilariously, the largest impact of stealth in PvE is the addition of a second battle rez with a high skill cap. Obviously, not relevant to mobility.

 

Phase Walk is also irrelevant in PvE. I used it to assist in glitchy Master-Blaster knockbacks, but I technically didn't need to.

 

So we're down to Shadow Stride (which is just an off-GCD Force Charge on double the cooldown) and Force Speed (which is amazing). There's no question that Force Speed, by virtue of being fast, controllable, untargetted and off the GCD, is superior to basically every other mobility buff in the game. Hydraulics with the PT speed utility is the closest contender (and has a longer duration), but still falls short. Juggernauts obviously have nothing to compare.

 

But that only matters if rapid movement is something that you're only leveraging once every 25 seconds. If in fact you're only in need of a sprint that infrequently, then shadows remain the mobility kings. However, when you need more frequent mobility – which happens surprisingly often in PvE, especially in some of the older content – Juggernauts in particular pull ahead with their effective 8-9 second cooldown on charge.

 

Basically, Force Speed and Shadow Stride are much closer to Hydraulics in purpose: a relatively long cooldown that you use to address mobility issues in specific areas. Old Force Speed is more analogous to Force Charge, Jet Charge or Exfiltrate: a very short cooldown that is just part of your baseline movement package. This is why the cooldown on Force Speed is such a big deal, because it pushes it from something that is baseline part of how we get from point A to point B to something that we have to more judiciously apply to address very specific situations.

 

My contention is that, effectively, shadows lost their mobility package entirely and gained two specialized cooldowns with mobility implications: Force Speed and Shadow Stride.

[Lodinn]

Phase Walk is also irrelevant in PvE. I used it to assist in glitchy Master-Blaster knockbacks, but I technically didn't need to.

Well, I wouldn't take it out entirely, swapping on Bront hands in last phase and hiding behind pillars on Xeno helps A LOT. Then again, killshot on Revan... We often use sorcs to intercept Master beam and PW is way superior to Force Speed in terms of making space for everyone safely. You can't address group PVE using just a baseline model "There's the boss, he needs me to reposition time to time". Not when you're tanking (if you're dpsing then most bosses fall under model "i'm just staying here and trying my best to keep hitting the boss". I'd say Phase Walk for tank is about as useful as Shroud for dps. Well, significantly worse, but still fairly comparable.

 

I do understand, however, that you must've lost feeling of fluency. Like, if the droid on Nefra comes under you, you just pop Force Speed and move alongside with the second tank. Habit is the second nature and all that. I have a habit of making one-two steps prior to Force Speeding (helps with glitches on M&B and Bestia root on Council), so with new 50% movement speed utility it won't be that bad for me.

 

I don't see, however, how do juggs need jump every 8-12s. I mean, of all bosses I've tanked I probably leap on then only a few times during the battle and definitely not too often. Resetting leap with a knockback is totally exotic, even a Phase Walk has more uses.

 

However, when you need more frequent mobility – which happens surprisingly often in PvE, especially in some of the older content – Juggernauts in particular pull ahead with their effective 8-9 second cooldown on charge.

Err... What?

1. Eternity Vault - First boss? Pylons? It's even strange to complain taking into consideration 1.0 movement;
   
2. Karagga's Palace - No real gapclosing here;
   
3. Explosive Conflict - Firebrand & Stormcaller? No need in often gapclosing anyway;
   
4. Scum and Villainy - TITAN 6 and Styrak are only 2 coming to mind. Still, not that one has to cover large distances; more often than every half a minute except for burn maybe. One more fight where Phase Walk can be handy btw;
   
5. Terror From Beyond - First two bosses only, no real need in quick and often repositioning again.
    
   
6. Dread Fortress - Now that's more fun. Draxus, CZ, Bront. But except for Anti-Gravity field and Brontes final phase you won't need much movement, and for the Anti-Gravity it's a) predictable b) Juggs leap doesn't help so much here. Brontes burn - granted, it's movement-heavy, especially now, but sins still have an upper hand as compared to other tanks here. It's a nerf, however.
   
7. Dread Palace - Stride is more convenient than Force Speed on Tyrans, Calph got worse, I'm worried about Bestia on Council. Some other aspects like B&S phase are improved, however. For juggs leap is of no use quite often here as you need to move FROM the boss, not TO him. And unless you have a good coordination PW is even better.
   

 

My point? I don't use leap every 8-12s on jugg. If Operatives would have had a tanking discipline I would end up with using roll almost on cd in certain cases.

 

My contention is that, effectively, shadows lost their mobility package entirely and gained two specialized cooldowns with mobility implications: Force Speed and Shadow Stride.

 

Only if you regard Force Speed as a "quickly reposition-and-forget about movement until next time" utility.

Quick picture to prove my point, assumption you would have passive buff from utility for full 9 seconds is a bad one but it's clearly seen they will be on par during each 18s window. Too lazy to TEX silly linear equations.

It is not a huge hit I'd say. But it definitely will keep you more stressed than before.

[DarenLoot]

Let's clearify a few things:

 

Powertechs:

Jet Charge: 30m leap; 15s cooldown

Hydraulic Overrides: 30% speed boost for 6sec+; immunity vs. slow, root & push; 45s cooldown

Utility - Pneumatic Boots: Permanent 15% speed boost

Utility - Iron Will: -10sec cooldown for Hydraulic Overrides

Utility - Torgue Boosters: +4sec duration for Hydraulic Overrides

Utility - Explored Area: 50% speed boost for 6sec+ (multiple targets) via Stealth Scan (20sec cooldown)

Utility - Efficient Suit: +45% speed boost for Hydraulic Overrides

Utility - Jet Speed: 30% speed boost for 3sec via Jet Charge; duration resetted on taking damage

Almost all attacks have a 30m range

Long lasting stuns via Electro Dart (5sec) and Carbonize (3.5sec AoE stun) via Enhanced Paralytics utility

 

To sum it up:

The Powertechs get all the benefits of a tanky melee class, without suffering the same limitations (i.e. 4m range).

And although it takes several utility points to achieve max. mobility, this class has access to some of the most powerful variants, including a 10sec immunity to slow & push effects every 35sec.

 

Operative:

Exfiltrate: 12m roll; usable twice; 10sec+ cooldown ('+', because the cooldown doesn't start on your first roll)

Holotraverse: 30m teleport; 75% speed boost for 3sec; 45sec cooldown

Utility - Infiltrator: Permanent 15% speed boost

Utility - Hit-&-Run: 50% speed boost for 3sec via Shiv (6sec cooldown)

Utility - Adv. Cloaking: 50% speed boost for 6sec via Cloaking Screen (90sec cooldown)

Option to roll to nearby cover

Stealth to close a gap without being attacked

Heal skills to restore the hitpoints lost from any nonlethal attack that wasn't evaded

Three 30m attacks (Rifle Shot, Snipe & Frag Grenade) and some 10m attacks to be useful outside melee range

 

To sum it up:

Exfiltrate might have the shortest cooldown, but also the shortest distance covered. Holotraverse grants a whooping 75% speed bonus, but doesn't root the target. This class doesn't have many utilities to improve the own mobility, but thanks to stealth, cover and heals, it's a really powerful combination.

 

The most interesting fact is that contrary to other melee classes, the 30m teleport is at a 45sec cooldown, whereas the speed boost (double roll) has the 15sec cooldown instead. IMO, that might be an option for all the other classes as well. But I could also imagine a 30sec/30sec constellation, since this is the only melee class with heal skills.

 

Lastly, IMO it would also be quite flavorful to make the Assassin's Phase Walk an operative skill instead (in form of a holo-droid).

 

Marauder:

Force Charge: 30m leap; 15sec cooldown

Mad Dash: 20m charge as a line-AoE; 45sec cooldown

Force Camouflage: 30% speed boost & immunity vs. control for 4sec; 45sec cooldown

Predation: 50% speed boost for 10sec (whole team); either 30 Fury or 30sec cooldown

Utility - Phantom: Permanent 15% speed boost; +20% speed boost & +2sec duration for Force Camouflage

Utility - Unbound: +30% speed boost for Predation

Force Leap cooldown reset via Force Push (60sec cooldown)

Barely any attack with more than 4m range

No stealth, cover, heal (controllable & effective)

 

To sum it up:

In regard of pure speed bonuses, Marauders have the upper hand. IMO, that's ok, because unlike Assassins, the don't have stealth to rely on and there is no tank option either. However, I could imagine to give Marauders the Warmonger & Seething Hatred utilities, removing Contemplation and one other utility instead.

 

Juggernaut:

Force Charge: 30m leap; 15sec cooldown

Intercede: 30m leap towards a friendly target; 20sec cooldown

Mad Dash: 20m charge as a line-AoE; 45sec cooldown

Utility - Unshackling Enrage: 50% speed boost for 6sec via Enrage (60sec cooldown)

Utility - Warmonger: Taking damage reduces cooldown of Force Leap

Utility - Intercessor: Reduces the cooldown of Intercede by 5sec

Utility - Through Victory: 50% speed boost and immunity vs. slow for 10sec via Endure Pain (60sec cooldown)

Utility - Embolding Scream: 50% speed boost for 8sec via Chilling Scream for everyone except you

Force Leap cooldown reset via Force Push (60sec cooldown)

Barely any attack with more than 4m range

No stealth, cover, heal (controllable & effective)

 

To sum it up:

This class had some hefty drawbacks during 3.0. Due to the lack of both a permanent 15% and a powerful, low-cooldown speed boost, a single slow effect could ruin your day (being kited). The only option was to choose the heroic utility 'Through Victory', but that wasn't even close to a Hydraulic Overrides or other variants. IMO, the new speed boost via Enrage just feels like a half-baked copy of 'Through Victory'.

 

All in all, it's still worse than other classes and I wish BioWare would overhaul this class. The Juggernaut should be a slow, but unstoppable force, so Hydraulic Overrides would make more sense for this class. The most important aspect is the immunity to push and pulls.

 

Assassin:

Force Speed: 150% speed boost for 2sec+; no target required, no min. range, fully controllable; doesn't break stealth; 30sec cooldown

Phantom Stride: 30m teleport; 75% speed boost for 3sec; 30s cooldown

Phase Walk: 60m teleport to marked location; 45s cooldown

Utility - Avoidance: -5sec cooldown for Force Speed

Utility - Obfuscation: Permanent 15% speed boost

Utility - Disjunction: Increases duration of Force Speed by 25% (0.5sec)

Utility - Emersion: Force Speed cancels slow & root; temp. immunity against these effects

Utility - Speed Surge: 50% speed boost for 9sec every 18sec via Shock or Crushing Darkness

Utility - Gait Manipulation: 50% speed boost while Force Cloak is active

Stealth to close a gap without being attacked

Barely any attack with range above 4m, although Shock & Force Lightning are low cooldown attacks (10~30m)

 

Now, let's have a look at the actual complains:

 

 

Shadows are primarily a stealth class. The main difference between a teleport and Force Speed is that the latter gives the player more control. Whereas other classes have to have a target they can jump on, Force Speed can be used at any time, in any direction at any distance to the target (even not moving at all) and even without breaking stealth.

 

To sum that up: The assassins traded mobility (distance covered) for utility. If Assassins would really be 'melee skirmishers', they would have had a real teleport skill to begin with. (F.e. use teleport to jump in, deal some damage and then teleport back).

 

Let's not forget the ability to use stealth as a gap closer//opener or combat escape. And if you would have considered Speed Surge, you might have recognized that this little utility already grants a 50% speed bonus for 9 out of 18sec. Now go an show me how a Juggernaut achieves this.

 

And that's already the main point: All you do is to talk about cooldown, willingly ignoring all the other aspects.

 

Let's assume a Force Speed with a 15sec cooldown where players lose directional control. In other words, you would have to run for the whole duration in the direction you were facing. Suddenly, you'd get similar problems as a 20m Mad Dash or two successive Exfiltrates. But more importantly, your whole argumentation about "mobility windows" would crumble.

 

And the same is true, if we assume BioWare would change it into a 15sec Phantom Stride and a 45sec Force Speed just to make things similar to the Juggernaut and Marauders who have a 15sec Force Charge and a 45sec Mad Dash.

 

Ok. I'll clarify some things for you too.

 

First of all, Assassin/Shadow classes don't have "Barely any attack with range above 4m, although Shock & Force Lightning are low cooldown attacks (10~30m)". They do have their attacks fairly split between 0-4m and 0-10m, also Force Lightning/ Telekinetic Throw and Shock/ Project are 10m too. Only FL and TT go up to 30m if you use them on recklessness charges, which you usually don't if you're not a tank and use it on DV or so. Deception/Infiltration have a 30m mezz attack (designed as a counter kiting ability), hatred/serenity, have a dot with root (i think, if that wasn't nerfed too, designed as a kiting ability). So assassins are pretty much more limited then the other melee classes on ranges over 10m (which in this game translates as melee classes). OP and PT have several choices in ranged (10m-30m) department which makes them less dependent on movement ability. Juggs and Maras compensate lack of ranged abilities with leaps... which can be considered movement ability for their purpose They also have at least 1 ranged attack so they are sort of squared with assassins in this department.

 

Now that being said as opposed as some may believe Phase Walk for assassins can not be considered a mobility ability since no melee class has any advantage in a fight phase to increase the distance between them and the enemy. This is a bit debatable when it comes to Hatred, which would be the only spec that would be able to benefit from something like this. But as an overall PW (unlike for sorcs&sages) for assassin is at most an escape, much more to it is that it's mostly unreliable and very situational too (it's a visible fixed point in the ground, it's effectiveness depends on your current position, and also doesn't get you out of combat only out of the battle). So in either pvp or pve, assassins don't get much mobility benefit from an ability like this which was mean for a ranged class in the first place.

 

Now about stealth. You say stealth it's a gap closer, which is sometimes true, most of the times it's not. Stealth it's a gap closer only as an opener and when you don't get detected by the enemy (which usually shouldn't be a problem, even against snipers if you combine it with Blackout - defensive cooldown - and speed). For other purposes you should keep in mind stealth is only a mobility hindrance and also if you're in stealth you're not contributing to the team effort. As opposed to this, Juggs sturdiness that makes them keep inside battles for longer periods of time while contributing to the battle too is an advantage. Stealth can't be considered mobility ability either, it's just a mechanic that provides cover for a surprise attack, and if used correctly and not dotted can be a decent defensive cooldown/escape, but nothing more.

 

With these things out of the way, there comes the main question I wanted to raise. What is mobility for assassins and why do they need it? I will focus on a Deception/Infiltration perspective right now, since those specs were the wounded the most by this change. Deception is a spec that wears light armor and with the entropic field buffs don't even match the medium armor specs in DR and survivability. Pit any other melee class in a one on one battle with an immobile out of stealth deception assassin, and you'll see who goes down first. Right now the class has one of the lower bursts in the game and cant be considered a sustained dmg class either. It lacks survivability and like 2 hp bars like juggs can manage, and also their self heals is the worst. To compensate for this lack of anything this spec is meant to use a combo of mobility, cc's and stealth to keep itself alive and keep near ranged targets. So nerfs in mobility for deception is like making the spec dead meat at some level.

 

So I guess there are solutions to this mobility nerfs which combined with a bit of play style change could more or less get you back the mobility issues you have... but for a price... and the price is not low at all. As I did some thinking deception right now needs to cast away 2 utility points just to compensate for this change and still need to adapt it's play style a little. In the end it won't get the same advantages as there were before, but will get some other mobility percs which should cover for it. On the other hand while deception struggles to stay the same, dmg outputs and mobility overall increased for the other classes, be it for only a bit. While these changes were made, deception needs to sacrifice 2 defensive utility points (for me) or other cc related ones (like instant WW) just to keep up with the old game.

 

Me playing deception as my main I can tell this is a big hit for this spec. The other assassin specs maybe don't need that much mobility in the first place, but deception can't be played without it.

 

This was my pvp preview on the matter, as for pve, probably someone that posted before me is mostly informative.

Edited October 28, 2015 by DarenLoot

[KeyboardNinja]

Eternity Vault - First boss? Pylons? It's even strange to complain taking into consideration 1.0 movement;

 

Karagga's Palace - No real gapclosing here;

 

Eh… I don't know if anyone cares about the classic ops. Though it is worth noting that we had a 12 second CD on Force Speed when this content was current.

 

Explosive Conflict - Firebrand & Stormcaller? No need in often gapclosing anyway;

 

Swapping on Toth&Zorn with high DPS is going to be a nightmare with long-cooldown gap closers. Especially Force Speed. Firebrand and Stormcaller do have significant tank movement in nightmare mode (due to the add juggle), but probably not going to be an issue. Vorgath wouldn't have been an issue at level, but now that the turrets have infinite range and have to be tanked, he is. Kephess is mobility-city, especially in nightmare mode, and I'm not even 100% certain how I'm going to tank him (particularly in the final phase) with long cooldown mobility.

 

Scum and Villainy - TITAN 6 and Styrak are only 2 coming to mind. Still, not that one has to cover large distances; more often than every half a minute except for burn maybe. One more fight where Phase Walk can be handy btw;

 

Titan is, ironically, the only boss where I regularly use Phase Walk. Olok has significant linear mobility pressure (during the puzzle phase) if you have a tool for it, but Force Charge is not that tool. Cartel Warlords I'm Force Speeding on cooldown (old cooldown) in NiM if I'm kiting Tu'chuk. I don't know if kiting is required anymore; haven't tried NiM S&V yet. Styrak has a lot of movement, but I was able to stagger between the two abilities in HM, so it's probably fine in NiM.

 

Terror From Beyond - First two bosses only, no real need in quick and often repositioning again.

 

Dread Guard is very definitely a problem, depending on circle position strats and interrupts and such. Kephess is the huge problem though. Very highly mobile fight in NiM (not really in HM) due to the added orb. Long CD Force Speed actually might break our strat here.

 

Dread Fortress - Now that's more fun. Draxus, CZ, Bront. But except for Anti-Gravity field and Brontes final phase you won't need much movement, and for the Anti-Gravity it's a) predictable b) Juggs leap doesn't help so much here. Brontes burn - granted, it's movement-heavy, especially now, but sins still have an upper hand as compared to other tanks here. It's a nerf, however.

 

Grob'thok is going to be an issue in NiM, trying to set up the vectors for the adds without moving the boss. Draxus is less of a problem, I think. CZ is definitely an issue, though some clever boss positioning will help I think. Brontes is a massive, insane nerf, since this boss was the poster-child for "Force Speed OP".

 

Dread Palace - Stride is more convenient than Force Speed on Tyrans, Calph got worse, I'm worried about Bestia on Council. Some other aspects like B&S phase are improved, however. For juggs leap is of no use quite often here as you need to move FROM the boss, not TO him. And unless you have a good coordination PW is even better.

 

Bestia's main boss fight in NiM is going to be a huge problem, notably the first phase. Swapping in the later phases is nicer with Stride, but it's not actually up for every swap. The first phase though… Not sure what I'm going to do with that. Tyrans… I actually don't care so much about him, but frequent Force Speed is extremely useful for bypassing his rotationally induced rooting bugs when moving between platforms during Simplification (not relevant in HM, because apparently his movement semantics are subtly different, but very important in NiM). Calphayus is slightly annoying, but that's about it. Speed is up for the circles, which is all that matters. Raptus is very annoying for the same reason that Grob'thok is very problematic, but it only affects Raptus immediately following the challenges. Council is a trainwreck. Solo tanking Bestia is still possible, but very fiddly and there are no margins for error. Easier to just swap.

 

Only if you regard Force Speed as a "quickly reposition-and-forget about movement until next time" utility.

Quick picture to prove my point, assumption you would have passive buff from utility for full 9 seconds is a bad one but it's clearly seen they will be on par during each 18s window. Too lazy to TEX silly linear equations.

It is not a huge hit I'd say. But it definitely will keep you more stressed than before.

 

The trouble is that the passive buff isn't really as valuable since I can't control it and it is a time-windowed effect. I have to use Shock on CD, so that means that I'm just randomly "being fast" 50% of the time, but I can't control which 50% of the time it is.

[Simmerr]

We can debate the intricate uses of force speed to death, but the biggest question is if, in general, people felt assasssins were too OP because of force speed? Was there anybody AT ALL complaining about this before the nerf? And if there were issues with the cd pre-nerf, were they because of DPS sins or tank sins, and why should one have to suffer because of the other?

 

It seems like they took something that nobody had any opinions about (the cooldown) and then changed it to the point that people now have issues with it. Forget about the tactical analysis and how we're going to adjust (becuase everyone has/will), and lets look at more of the strategic level of why they might have made the change.

 

I really like the line that we lost our baseline class mobility and got 2 mobility cd's to use instead of it. Why should I have to use a cd to go from A to B, instead of being able to just go there without having to time wait for cd's and time every single movement phase properly?

Edited October 28, 2015 by Simmerr

[Lodinn]

Eh… I don't know if anyone cares about the classic ops. Though it is worth noting that we had a 12 second CD on Force Speed when this content was current.

I think now people do. Especially about EC, the other two were way less intense.

 

Swapping on Toth&Zorn with high DPS is going to be a nightmare with long-cooldown gap closers. Especially Force Speed. Firebrand and Stormcaller do have significant tank movement in nightmare mode (due to the add juggle), but probably not going to be an issue. Vorgath wouldn't have been an issue at level, but now that the turrets have infinite range and have to be tanked, he is. Kephess is mobility-city, especially in nightmare mode, and I'm not even 100% certain how I'm going to tank him (particularly in the final phase) with long cooldown mobility.

Ironically, for what you've mentioned I barely see much problems. Stride is quite good for tank swap, you often leap for swaps on jugg, right? Here you Stride, then FS, then stride again... Basically each 15 seconds. Not any worse than before. As long as you use FS as gapcloser, Stride is just as good except you can't do it in advance while adds are still spawning. The beauty of FS in those cases was that you could actually run around the boss, not directly to him (controlling Bulo cleaves was easier that way), but that's required mostly because of clumsiness of Jugg's leaps. I've noticed Stride is much smoother, after leap there's some deadlock period during which you can't really reposition, Stride doesn't share that problem.

 

Cartel Warlords I'm Force Speeding on cooldown (old cooldown) in NiM if I'm kiting Tu'chuk. I don't know if kiting is required anymore; haven't tried NiM S&V yet.

Other tank classes are still inferior to sin here. Hehe.

 

Dread Guard is very definitely a problem, depending on circle position strats and interrupts and such. Kephess is the huge problem though. Very highly mobile fight in NiM (not really in HM) due to the added orb. Long CD Force Speed actually might break our strat here.

I've ran TfB HM last evening, Kephess timings align perfectly even with new Force Speed. Can't recall NiM being so much different movement-wise tbh, probably could use a refresher.

 

Grob'thok is going to be an issue in NiM, trying to set up the vectors for the adds without moving the boss. Draxus is less of a problem, I think. CZ is definitely an issue, though some clever boss positioning will help I think. Brontes is a massive, insane nerf, since this boss was the poster-child for "Force Speed OP".

Grob? Don't think so, new movement package is good enough for it given you can Stride staying right next to the boss and so on. Muscle memory will require some rewiring but that's it. Depends on how you do it, too - ability to taunt-swap a lot leaves many loose ends. I'm concerned about Draxus as he leaves a little place for mistake - say, you opt to AOE adds altogether and only manage to do so very unevenly. Kiting and repositioning back would get harder, might even consider placing Phase Walk for hiding. Or tell DPS to stop slacking

CZ will be bad, place him to the wall and never have your position updated or risk flying when getting out to taunt gold add... Well, you know the drill. Gotta do it cleaner now.

Bront... She will be a big hit considering increased knockback range on slams but with losing some opportunities (i used recklessness + FL for droids anyway, Kephess you can handle with Stride, for getting back to Bront after reaches I use Phase Walk and Stride can be used in the first push as well) you gain some now ones - imagine teleporting to group of orbs coming from the same corner instead of pulling just one.

 

I'd say sins got larger zone of control now, but worse control over it.

 

Tyrans… I actually don't care so much about him, but frequent Force Speed is extremely useful for bypassing his rotationally induced rooting bugs when moving between platforms during Simplification (not relevant in HM, because apparently his movement semantics are subtly different, but very important in NiM). [...] Council is a trainwreck. Solo tanking Bestia is still possible, but very fiddly and there are no margins for error. Easier to just swap.

You mean times when he freezes in the air atop of the removed tile and then cleaves raid to death as you have no real means to turn him around? Good point, but hopefully movements are small enough to get it done.

Council... Well iirc Force Speed was needed about every half a minute or so, which means exactly what you've just said. Can try altering tactics a little and kite her between the entrance (all the way there)/her throne and Striding through her... Which is a fun task to try. Before changes solotanking precision looked graceful already, let's see how it will be now. I'm eager to try that, but Calph dps check and Raptus tank gear check is blocking the way so far.

 

The trouble is that the passive buff isn't really as valuable since I can't control it and it is a time-windowed effect. I have to use Shock on CD, so that means that I'm just randomly "being fast" 50% of the time, but I can't control which 50% of the time it is.

I understood your point about it far earlier on, just wanted to say i didn't notice the change at all during couple of ops i did while enjoying new passive buff and Stride and how fun it was... Until finding myself VERY slow when I was expecting it the least.

 

And, as I said before (and as I'm crying on mara/sent forums) making unnecessary ninja changes / new "features" is what BW does the best. Don't even get me started on Field Respec

Point about changes that we didn't really need and that make some of us unhappy is totally legit.

[Gyronamics]

Forget about the tactical analysis and how we're going to adjust (becuase everyone has/will), and lets look at more of the strategic level of why they might have made the change.

 

To force shadows to work harder and cause them to die more often.

 

The new gapcloser is a one way ticket and it only goes towards enemies. Force Speed on the other hand is straight up a move faster button with no restriction. Casual mobility and the ability to avoid danger is being reduced by allowing less use of Force Speed.

 

Someone clearly believes shadows gameplay is too safe and cutting down versatile mobility is how to get the desired results of more risk into the class. Same argument for vanguards and Hold the Line getting a higher CD while being granted the gapcloser of Storm.

 

What other logic could possibly be behind it.

[JasonNH]

I've been noticing that you have to be really careful with stride, not to try and execute your next ability too quickly or it seems to negate it and put you back where you were, and yet it's still on cooldown. Anyone else seen this?

[Iona_Var]

The main area where I miss the old force speed cd is actually pvp, but I also don't tank in pve content so I don't know how much it's really missed. I've only done a few hm's since 4.0 dropped and I haven't had an issue so far but again, I'm dps.

[Ottoattack]

I am not high experienced sin, but having force speed on 25 secs, even with leap existence, kills the effectiveness of the class in PvP, where mobility is king. I would agree with BW that on 15 secs CD it was too much for dps specs, but 25 secs, is additional 10 secs in PvP in which you cannot change position or break roots, which is eternity.

 

While this is force speed thread, overall sin right now is mediocre class across all three specs and in all game modes.

[Gyronamics]

While this is force speed thread, overall sin right now is mediocre class across all three specs and in all game modes.

 

Lets not exaggerate now.

[DarenLoot]

Lets not exaggerate now.

 

Hatred seems to do fine... but today I've noticed the futility of every thing I tried in deception in a warzone against a double healer(sage)+tank premade... it felt like I was far from anywhere near being able to kill anything even though I tried all sort of approaches. Probably my team was sort of bad and started... bickering at some point, more then doing something, but I must say I never felt that useless in a long time during a warzone. The amount of slows, knockbacks + roots and heals is over the top right now for this spec at least.

 

As a side note, my fears about snipers/slingers were spot on, just needed to get to play a good one... Heh, the battle was so one sided I wouldn't believe my eyes. Stride can't be used on guys in cover, while the guy in cover can reset all its dcds my 25s speed was absolutely useless. The guy got a bit of offheals, but he could make a fool of me even with half hp. I couldn't keep on target, got slowed, rooted, knocked back, exfiltrated and my stride was useless.

 

So much fun...

 

PS: the ttk has yet again been raised... this is so much of a pleasure for the specs that don't need to be as quick as possible in dealing with an enemy. To bad for our most beloved squishy stealth "burst" specs which become more and more overwhelmed as much as the battle prolongs. Sustained and stalemates is love.

Edited October 29, 2015 by DarenLoot

[Aelanis]

I am not high experienced sin, but having force speed on 25 secs, even with leap existence, kills the effectiveness of the class in PvP, where mobility is king. I would agree with BW that on 15 secs CD it was too much for dps specs, but 25 secs, is additional 10 secs in PvP in which you cannot change position or break roots, which is eternity.

 

While this is force speed thread, overall sin right now is mediocre class across all three specs and in all game modes.

 

If you think so, I don't think you know how to play an Assassin very well. Tanks will still crush it, and Deception is going to be doing pretty well for itself in PvE. I should try out my new MH and finished 6 piece set bonus, but I kinda wanna get relics before I go nuts.

[Lodinn]

To force shadows to work harder and cause them to die more often.

 

The new gapcloser is a one way ticket and it only goes towards enemies. Force Speed on the other hand is straight up a move faster button with no restriction. Casual mobility and the ability to avoid danger is being reduced by allowing less use of Force Speed.

 

Someone clearly believes shadows gameplay is too safe and cutting down versatile mobility is how to get the desired results of more risk into the class. Same argument for vanguards and Hold the Line getting a higher CD while being granted the gapcloser of Storm.

 

What other logic could possibly be behind it.

That.

 

@Aelanis - I certainly won't count sins out, at least not until they will be totally unable to soak up sustained damage. As per dps sins, you're FAR more proficient with them than I am so I'd just leave judgement to you. Deception is reported to be really strong now by virtually everyone who was PvEing on it before, so maybe it's a way to go and try something (relatively) new after 3.*.

 

What I was trying to say, however, is that balance has heavily shifted towards juggs. Sins have used to be nearly hands-down better than juggs as they could do as much as juggs could on most of the fights and something more. At least I was tanking on jugg solely for quite a long time, but when I got my hands on sin... Well, it just became a default tanking class as it could get the job done. There were VERY few fights where i could do on jugg notably more than i could on sin. Now when juggs have their huge weakness more or less covered, it's more balanced. That being said, IMHO PT tanks got pushed off the table as their new ability is barely usable in PvE (it _would_ be usable for tank swap in certain cases but it's worse than Interceding on co-tank apparently), one of their 3.* signature abilities (HO) got nerfed. Rebounders are still intact, however.

And given the amounts of cheesable insta-kill mechanics in old content (do I still have to remind of Bront as very likely the hardest boss now once again?)... Sintanks took some hit to their Force Speed. PTs have it much worse. Juggs have better. Balance, where are you?

[Evolixe]

To force shadows to work harder and cause them to die more often.

 

The new gapcloser is a one way ticket and it only goes towards enemies. Force Speed on the other hand is straight up a move faster button with no restriction. Casual mobility and the ability to avoid danger is being reduced by allowing less use of Force Speed.

 

Someone clearly believes shadows gameplay is too safe and cutting down versatile mobility is how to get the desired results of more risk into the class. Same argument for vanguards and Hold the Line getting a higher CD while being granted the gapcloser of Storm.

 

What other logic could possibly be behind it.

 

This is a stupid argument. And even if it would be true, that'd be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can't nerf mobility for the sole reason of making a class "die more often". That is far too big and shortsighted of a nerf.

 

It's a stealth class, and that inherently means that it has better means to escape than other classes do. To nerf the very core of the class just so it's "more fun" for others to fight against... do I honestly have to go on about how stupid this argument is?

 

 

If you are good at what you do, on any class, you'll be able to take on a shadow in a warzone.

He might run, he might die, either way you have a chance to win. I have never had a problem dealing with Shadows or Assassins when I was playing anything else. If you are having trouble, look in the *** mirror.

[IliumVae]

In my opinion the issue here is with Phase Walk. It is basically a non-ability. It's not nearly on the level of the other abilities classes received at that time. In fact, it is probably the most useless ability in the game. It's so situational I can't think of a single ability I would give up to keep it. They need to abandon it and give us a new mobility ability.

And mobility doesn't always have to mean moving forward. A back-flip or something would be interesting and would probably achieve what they were aiming for with Phase Walk.

[Evolixe]

In my opinion the issue here is with Phase Walk. It is basically a non-ability. It's not nearly on the level of the other abilities classes received at that time. In fact, it is probably the most useless ability in the game. It's so situational I can't think of a single ability I would give up to keep it. They need to abandon it and give us a new mobility ability.

And mobility doesn't always have to mean moving forward. A back-flip or something would be interesting and would probably achieve what they were aiming for with Phase Walk.

 

I don't necessarily agree. I use PW all the time for all sorts of things. Both in PvE and PvP alike.

But it's no substitute for consistent mobility, you just use it when there's a good reason to.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Evolixe