Havoc Squad Commanding Officer vs. Cipher 9

[Joluka]

Here's a match-up I've never seen discussed before and I'm curious what you guys think. Who's physically superior? Better trained? Smarter? More skilled? Deadliest crew?

 

Remember, this is on neutral ground with both of their crews aiding them.

 

In my opinion, I think Cipher 9 and her crew would wipe the floor with the Trooper, but that might just be the fan in me talking.

[Spetulhu]

I'd rank the Trooper as better in a straight-up fight, but Cipher 9 is the one more likely to decide if there's even going to be a fight and if so what the terms will be. Basically: Trooper wins if it's a sudden unplanned clash, Cipher 9 if there's time to prepare.

[SithKoriandr]

Havoc Squad.

 

Cipher 9 is great at many things, but a lot of their crew is really about spying. Keeping to the dark. This isn't to say they lack for hand to hand at all. If this was who's the better spy, we'd of course give it to the Cipher crew, but this is a fight!

 

Havoc Squad! They're about war! They're about sneaking in as well! Hell, Havoc Squad is about laying waste with missile strikes and carpet bombing.

 

Now, strictly hand to hand, no armor, this becomes a different story. Strictly a hand to hand brawl? Regardless that both tend to be range classes in game terms, both are trained combatants. I would give it to the Cipher crew.

 

Dorne just doesn't come off as a good hand to hand fighter. Good leader. Good with a gun. Good medic. Likely an okay hand to hand fighter compared to the common citizen, but no specialist.

 

Jorgan likely has some training, probably pretty good too, though likely just under the next two.

 

Vik is the brawler, likely has some training, but his personality just seems to be big muscled brawler type.

 

Yuun is your martial artist. Likely really good. He is part of Havoc Squad after all.

 

Then the Trooper themself. Likely above Jorgan (who wouldn't want to admit it, but he probably wouldn't want to admit Vik and Yuun were better hand to hand fighters either) on par maybe better than Vik and Yuun, though still very much the blaster user.

 

Ciper's crew all seem to have the one on one hand to hand skills down as part of their skill set. Weakest link is Temple. She's mini-Cipher 9, but has dirty little force tricks to rely on and since she appears to have some force persuasion skills, while useless on the Trooper themself, likely effective on the Trooper's crew (even if only weakly, figuring the PCs can ignore force persuasion as shown by the smuggler and hunter). They're the spies. They're the assassins.

 

Open land warfare (whether it be out in some nature area or even a city in general)? Trooper. Locked in Nakatomi Plaza? Cipher.

[Jorander]

Incredibly hard to call for me. This would be one hell of an asymmetrical war and for that reason alone I'm actually really interested in this.

 

If Cipher 9 screws up and gets cornered, caught, or pinned down, it's game over for the imps. On the other hand, Havoc Squad may never see Cipher 9 coming. Cipher 9 is an unholy fusion of Jason Bourne and 007 with imperial technology and resources. The Havoc Squad Commander is a poor man's Masterchief, and that alone is absolutely horrifying. Havoc's leader is one of those game-changing battlefield pieces, the kind of unit that you have to plan your entire strat around if you want to have a hope in hell of winning. Cipher 9 on the other hand is basically Clyde from Law Abiding Citizen, an expert at unconventional warfare.

[Celise]

Here's a match-up I've never seen discussed before and I'm curious what you guys think. Who's physically superior? Better trained? Smarter? More skilled? Deadliest crew?

 

Remember, this is on neutral ground with both of their crews aiding them.

 

In my opinion, I think Cipher 9 and her crew would wipe the floor with the Trooper, but that might just be the fan in me talking.

 

in pure destructive power and brute force, the trooper has it hands down, superior training and tactics, heavy armours and big guns.

 

in subversive actions though, the agent has that one covered, it doesnt require weapons, but excellent ability to manipulate your opponents into a trap.

 

as far as companions are concerned, the trooper would have a mostly solid screen of loyal men, the only weakness in the tlines would be Tanno Vik. he can be bought.

 

as for the agents companions? all of them are unreliable to the agent in direct loyalty means, kaliyo can be bought, vector is compromised, lokin is too involved in his own affairs, scorpio is looking for ways to kill everyone, temple is more than likely to leave you to your fate and run off to fight again another time.

 

when it comes right to it though, in a direct engagement, the trooper would win it, over a distance or over time the agent would win it if he can get around tanno.

[Codedrago]

Here's a match-up I've never seen discussed before and I'm curious what you guys think. Who's physically superior? Better trained? Smarter? More skilled? Deadliest crew?

 

Remember, this is on neutral ground with both of their crews aiding them.

 

In my opinion, I think Cipher 9 and her crew would wipe the floor with the Trooper, but that might just be the fan in me talking.

 

Crew Wise, Havoc Squad. Since they'rre better as a team, plus I don't really trust any of the agents crew to not leave the agent to die if things get to risky.

One-on-One, Cypher 9. He seems more trained for this type of situation, while the Trooper is mostly trained to work along side the team, plus the agent is defiantly the smartest of the bunch and could probably easily stategise around the trooper.

[Excise]

Let's pair up the companions on their pre-KoTFE roles, shall we?

 

Melee DPS - Vector vs Yuun

Both are skilled at saying complete gibberish, but Vector's gibberish is at least in English so that gives him the advantage. Yuun's an actual soldier though, while Vector's only combat skill is owning a stick. Conclusion: Tie. Vector and Yuun go off to the Voss tea cafe to recite buggy poetry together.

 

Ranged Tank: M1 vs Kaliyo

Unless M1 is able to make Kaliyo's head explode via patriotism (and I wouldn't put it by him), Kaliyo can pretty much kick the you-know-what out of anything. She'd fight dirty. Conclusion: Kaliyo. Sorry M1, but the ability to scream "Havoc!" does not count as a weapon.

 

Medic: Dorne vs Lokin

They both wield the power of a British accent, so no advantage there, but only one of them is able to grow facial hair and turn into a vicious monster. Conclusion: Dr. Lokin. Pretty sure Dorne would take one look at Lokin and defect straight back to the Imps, so they wouldn't really need to fight.

 

Melee Tank: SCORPIO vs Vik

One is an amoral, selfish killing machine and the other's a droid (nyuk nyuk). Everyone thinks Vik is moron despite him being a ****** throughout Balmorra. SCORPIO failed to murder 2V in the 2013 April Fools Day event, and any excuse to do so should have been enough. Conclusion: Tanno Vik. 2V tries that on Vik and it's ending completely different.

 

Ranged DPS: Aric vs Temple

Sheesh, mini-Havoc Commander vs mini-Cipher Nine. In a straight up fight, Aric's going to win. For Maker's sake, he's a so-called "sniper" who uses an assault cannon. ***, Aric? Temple can't deal with that magnitude of balls. Conclusion: Aric Jorgen.

 

Conclusion: Whoops, a tie. Sorry, we resolved nothing here.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Excise

[Frenesi]

Agent is trickster, Havock is trained shock squad. On even ground, trooper will wipe the floor with agent, but agent will never start on even ground. He will either attack from stealth or from huuuuge distance, and - most likely - wipe the floor with trooper

[VitalityPrime]

Agent is trickster, Havock is trained shock squad. On even ground, trooper will wipe the floor with agent, but agent will never start on even ground. He will either attack from stealth or from huuuuge distance, and - most likely - wipe the floor with trooper

 

This^

 

It's like Batman vs someone more powerful than him. With and without prep.

 

Havoc Squad Commanding Officer would win in a straight up fight.

 

However, Cipher 9 wins with prep.

[Lesaberisa]

Havoc Squad is an elite Special Forces squad, not a standard military unit, so the trooper (at the least) would have considerable training in "non-standard" combat - think Delta Force, not some random military unit. They might not have the exact level of specific training that Cipher 9 would (although Cipher 9 is a relatively new agent at the start of the story, so it's not as if they're an expert), but a Special Forces squad would certainly be aware of how to fight dirty.

 

Not to mention...Havoc Squad also has someone with firsthand knowledge and experience with Imperial tactics in the squad and Jorgan has considerable experience with sniping and "dirty" fighting from his time with the Deadeyes. I'd imagine Vik probably has his own experience as well.

 

Also, everyone in Havoc has actual combat experience, and they're good at it (even Vik is a skilled solider, his problem is that he's a disobedient scumbag). On the agent side, Vector is a diplomat and Lokin was a researcher/scientist. Turning into a rakghoul isn't going to do much against an elite military unit with a member that has firsthand experience of how to deal with rakghouls. Even Temple is pretty inexperienced and has to be trained in combat techniques during the story. The agent crew also would not have the experience of working together as a unit in combat like Havoc Squad would.

 

Could the agent and/or their crew win against the trooper and/or their crew? Yeah, sure, but I think people get caught up in the "secret agent" mystique and the general halo effect around anything related to the agent story.

 

In a fight on neutral ground (per OP), Havoc Squad would annihilate the agent crew.

 

Edit: Even "with prep", Havoc Squad is still better trained, better equipped, more experienced, more skilled in combat and has more experience in the agent's area of expertise than the agent's crew has in the trooper's area of expertise.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Lesaberisa

[Nefertuss]

(although Cipher 9 is a relatively new agent at the start of the story, so it's not as if they're an expert)

 

Can I just point out that both contestants were fresh out of training at the start of their respective stories? Not just C9.

Regardless, their accomplishments are no less impressive for it, they've both earned their infamy as the galaxy's best.

[Lesaberisa]

Can I just point out that both contestants were fresh out of training at the start of their respective stories? Not just C9.

Regardless, their accomplishments are no less impressive for it, they've both earned their infamy as the galaxy's best.

 

Yes, but the argument for Cipher 9 and/or their crew beating the trooper and/or their crew is that they're some kind of super-amazing expert of underhanded combat and trickery, which there's very little evidence for. The reason I brought up their inexperience is because there's no real reason to think they had the kind of extensive combat/tactical training they would need to go up against the top Special Forces commander in the Republic and little evidence they developed those skills during the story, while the trooper is specifically trained in combat (including "non-standard" combat, since they are Special Forces) and their story centers around utilizing that training.

 

This is also important to remember when looking at the agent crew, which has at least two members without significant combat backgrounds (Lokin, Vector) and a third member that is inexperienced (Temple). Other than maybe Kaliyo, there's nobody in the agent crew that's particularly good at the kind of "dirty warfare" that people seem to think the agent is an expert at.

 

I would also note that the agent class story, apart from maybe the Jadus fight, focused on the agent's infiltration/undercover work and not their tactical genius or combat capability, and Intelligence training would have included a lot of non-combat stuff that would not apply to this question (interrogation techniques, for example). The agent is recognized as being a top agent because of their ability to unravel conspiracies and gather intelligence, not because they're tactical geniuses or regularly handle combat against superior opponents (and it's not like they "prepped" against Jadus, anyway). I guess there's the fight at the end of Act 2, as well, though the agent didn't prep for that fight either (and I'm not sure how skilled the opponent was).

 

The trooper, on the other hand, has Special Forces training (which would almost certainly include one-on-one combat training well beyond what the agent would) and is assigned to the elite unit in that branch, which implies a level of skill well beyond the "just a soldier" label the character seems to have in certain parts of the fandom. Once assigned to Havoc Squad, the trooper gets more experience in developing their training as the story goes on with a variety of scenarios (hostage rescues, dealing with explosives, infiltration, dealing with Sith, etc.) and gets a crew of similarly well-trained and highly-skilled soldiers to boot.

 

Again, I'm not saying the agent is unskilled or incapable of handling themselves in combat - I'm just saying that people seem to blow the agent's combat/tactical expertise way out of proportion (because they like the story and are attached to the idea of their character being an unstoppable James Bond-figure, I think), and seem to drastically underestimate the trooper and trooper crew's skill/expertise.

 

Like I said, I certainly could see the agent winning, but the odds are stacked against them and I think the trooper and their crew are clearly well above the agent/agent crew's pay grade combat-wise with or without "prep time" or "fighting dirty".

Edited October 9, 2015 by Lesaberisa

[Frenesi]

Yes, but the argument for Cipher 9 and/or their crew beating the trooper and/or their crew is that they're some kind of super-amazing expert of underhanded combat and trickery, which there's very little evidence for. The reason I brought up their inexperience is because there's no real reason to think they had the kind of extensive combat/tactical training they would need to go up against the top Special Forces commander in the Republic and little evidence they developed those skills during the story, while the trooper is specifically trained in combat (including "non-standard" combat, since they are Special Forces) and their story centers around utilizing that training.

 

This is also important to remember when looking at the agent crew, which has at least two members without significant combat backgrounds (Lokin, Vector) and a third member that is inexperienced (Temple). Other than maybe Kaliyo, there's nobody in the agent crew that's particularly good at the kind of "dirty warfare" that people seem to think the agent is an expert at.

 

I would also note that the agent class story, apart from maybe the Jadus fight, focused on the agent's infiltration/undercover work and not their tactical genius or combat capability, and Intelligence training would have included a lot of non-combat stuff that would not apply to this question (interrogation techniques, for example). The agent is recognized as being a top agent because of their ability to unravel conspiracies and gather intelligence, not because they're tactical geniuses or regularly handle combat against superior opponents (and it's not like they "prepped" against Jadus, anyway). I guess there's the fight at the end of Act 2, as well, though the agent didn't prep for that fight either (and I'm not sure how skilled the opponent was).

 

The trooper, on the other hand, has Special Forces training (which would almost certainly include one-on-one combat training well beyond what the agent would) and is assigned to the elite unit in that branch, which implies a level of skill well beyond the "just a soldier" label the character seems to have in certain parts of the fandom. Once assigned to Havoc Squad, the trooper gets more experience in developing their training as the story goes on with a variety of scenarios (hostage rescues, dealing with explosives, infiltration, dealing with Sith, etc.) and gets a crew of similarly well-trained and highly-skilled soldiers to boot.

 

Again, I'm not saying the agent is unskilled or incapable of handling themselves in combat - I'm just saying that people seem to blow the agent's combat/tactical expertise way out of proportion (because they like the story and are attached to the idea of their character being an unstoppable James Bond-figure, I think), and seem to drastically underestimate the trooper and trooper crew's skill/expertise.

 

Like I said, I certainly could see the agent winning, but the odds are stacked against them and I think the trooper and their crew are clearly well above the agent/agent crew's pay grade combat-wise with or without "prep time" or "fighting dirty".

 

You assume there will be combat between trooper and prepared agent. You assume wrong.

 

There is a reason good IRL snipers wrack up huge killcounts, 100+ numbers. Longest recorded snipe, according to wiki, is 2,475 meters, and in SW you don't need to account for the wind and other projectile crap. Ans some sniper rifles are made to take out TANKS. NOTHING trooper can do at such distance, outside of running. And sniper can simply keep hunting him, or just request orbital bombardment of the area. As for Jorgan, sniper duels are determined by skill and stealth. Something tells me Jorgan fails at both when compaired to Cipher 9.

 

Operative is more tricky, but again, if he attacks on his terms, it's a question of exactly 1 strike from stealth. There are always weak spots in armor, and no human can survive proper poisoned knife stab.

[tomkyselk]

Like was already mentioned, if Trooper and Cipher meet in the open field, or narrow street, its game over for agent. Trooper has superior firepower to just nuke agent from the face of planet. But C9 is master of intelligence, infiltration and subterfuge. He would probably just dress his crew in Republic uniforms, made false call for help, leading trooper and his crew into ambush full of explosives, sniped him from huge distance while traps and his crew would just finish them of. If he would be operative, well than troper would probably just woke up dead with poisoned knife in him.

[Lesaberisa]

You assume there will be combat between trooper and prepared agent. You assume wrong.

 

There is a reason good IRL snipers wrack up huge killcounts, 100+ numbers. Longest recorded snipe, according to wiki, is 2,475 meters, and in SW you don't need to account for the wind and other projectile crap. Ans some sniper rifles are made to take out TANKS. NOTHING trooper can do at such distance, outside of running. And sniper can simply keep hunting him, or just request orbital bombardment of the area. As for Jorgan, sniper duels are determined by skill and stealth. Something tells me Jorgan fails at both when compaired to Cipher 9.

 

Operative is more tricky, but again, if he attacks on his terms, it's a question of exactly 1 strike from stealth. There are always weak spots in armor, and no human can survive proper poisoned knife stab.

 

The topic specifically asks

 

Here's a match-up I've never seen discussed before and I'm curious what you guys think. Who's physically superior? Better trained? Smarter? More skilled? Deadliest crew?

 

I've been pointing out how people tend to blow the agent's abilities way out of proportion while completely downplaying the skill and expertise of the trooper (again, a Special Forces soldier who is not just some random soldier and would be trained and have experience dealing with non-standard targets/missions) and Havoc Squad in general. Maybe Cipher Nine is smarter, but there's no reason to assume that. Maybe they're "more skilled" in some areas, but the trooper would be more skilled in other ways and would have at least some training in the same areas as the agent.

 

Speaking of assumptions, though, you're assuming that -

 

(1) Cipher 9 is a sniper

(2) Cipher 9 is a more skilled sniper than an experienced Republic sniper that commanded a sniper unit specifically assigned to taking out high-value targets despite their sniping never being described or shown as anywhere near that good in the game or story

(3) Republic Special Forces training/experience is somehow so lacking that even their best soldiers are rendered helpless by a sniper, even when a member of that Special Forces unit is a sniper themselves

(4) That Cipher Nine can "just keep hunting" the trooper while going up against an elite squad of Republic soldiers, at least one of which has more experience than them at sniping and is almost certainly better at it too.

(5) That Cipher Nine can just call down "orbital bombardment". Why can't Havoc counteract this or have Cipher 9 bombarded instead?

 

As for your "RL Snipers" analogy - real life snipers tend to have grossly exaggerated and unconfirmed kill counts which also tend to be run up against relatively unskilled opponents. They don't tend to be against a squad of soldiers considered elite on a galaxy-wide level. Plus, that assumes that Cipher 9 is a sniper at all and[/] that they're somehow an amazing sniper despite never demonstrating that skill in the story. Not to mention, the only character on either side of this equation you could compare to one of those top snipers in terms of experience and success is Jorgan.

 

Your argument that even an operative would just sneak up and stab the trooper with their totally poisoned blade is kind of ridiculous as well - nobody in the most elite squad in the Republic notices someone sneaking up? They don't have any kind of sensors or life-scans? One of the best soldiers in the Republic can't handle a one-on-one fight? Or that the trooper is a human and not a cyborg with implants or an alien species that might be more resistant to poison. More likely, Cipher Nine would be getting a blaster bolt to the head.

 

The only way the agent wins is something like the poster right above me describes - some sort of trick/ambush that Havoc would actually respond to, but that requires Havoc Squad to (1) be the one to respond, (2) fall into the trap and not notice until it's too late (i.e. perform like a less experienced/skilled squad) and (3) assumes Havoc would be unable to salvage the situation when that's part of what they're trained to do.

 

Is it possible? Sure, but you've changed from "who would win in a fight with crews?" to "who would win if we stacked the deck in the agent's favor and ignore Havoc Squad's capabilities and advantages?".

Edited October 9, 2015 by Lesaberisa

[tomkyselk]

 

The topic specifically asks who would win in a fight between the two including crews, and I've been pointing out how people tend to blow the agent's abilities way out of proportion while completely downplaying the skill and expertise of the trooper (again, a Special Forces soldier who is not just some random soldier and would be trained and have experience dealing with non-standard targets/missions) and Havoc Squad in general.

 

Speaking of assumptions, though, you're assuming that -

 

(1) Cipher 9 is a sniper

(2) Cipher 9 is a more skilled sniper than an experienced Republic sniper that commanded a sniper unit specifically assigned to taking out high-value targets despite their sniping never being described or shown as anywhere near that good in the game or story

(3) Republic Special Forces training/experience is somehow so lacking that they've never had to deal with a sniper before

(4) Nobody in Havoc Squad is capable of anticipating such a tactic or preparing some sort of countermeasure.

(5) That Cipher Nine can "just keep hunting" the trooper while going up against an elite squad of Republic soldiers, at least one of which has more experience than them at sniping and is almost certainly better at it too.

(6) That Cipher Nine can just call down "orbital bombardment". Why can't Havoc counteract this or have Cipher 9 bombarded instead?

 

Referring to real life snipers, who often times have contested/unconfirmed kill totals (which are often times exaggerated for propaganda effect) and typically don't go up against soldiers as elite as Havoc Squad is pointless, especially when the agent is not necessarily a sniper and there's no reason to believe they're an amazing sniper anyway (except for people wanting to think their agent is totally amazing).

 

Your argument that even an operative would just sneak up and stab the trooper with their totally unstoppable poisoned blade is silly - nobody in the most elite squad in the Republic notices someone sneaking up? They don't have any kind of sensors or life-scans? One of the best soldiers in the Republic can't handle a one-on-one fight?Cipher Nine would be getting a blaster bolt to the head.

 

The only way the agent wins is something like the poster right above me describes - some sort of trick/ambush that Havoc would actually respond to, and even that relies on Havoc Squad actually falling for the trap and not performing like the top Special Forces squad in the Republic (among many other things).

 

Is it possible? Sure. But you have to stack everything in the agent's favor to get there.

 

 

Regarding stacking everything in agents favor, that is exactly what agents like Cipher 9 or any fictional operatives (Bourne, Bond, John Clark-from Clancy´s books etc..) would do. They would never attacked unless they were sure, that odds are in their favor, they choose battleground, avenue of attack and trooper would have to react. And its hard to react with nice round hole in your skull.

Agent is excellent sniper, he is scalpel, where trooper is just hammer, its precision strikes against blunt force.

Your whole post seems like Republic propaganda, or just hate Agent for a)having better story b)having much more awesome uniforms (designed by Hugo Boss) c)serving better cause d)not having ridiculously looking cannon, that looks like trooper is compensating for something e)having much better ship and most importantly f)agents gets all the women:D

Regarding snipers-two words: Simo Häyhä

[Lesaberisa]

 

 

 

Regarding stacking everything in agents favor, that is exactly what agents like Cipher 9 or any fictional operatives (Bourne, Bond, John Clark-from Clancy´s books etc..) would do. They would never attacked unless they were sure, that odds are in their favor, they choose battleground, avenue of attack and trooper would have to react. And its hard to react with nice round hole in your skull.

 

You know what elite military units, especially when they're Special Forces, do? The exact same thing - they stack as many advantages as they can. Special Forces units like Havoc Squad, which again is more akin to something like Delta Force or the Seals than a regular Army squad, would be using similar strategies as the agent.

 

I guess I don't understand why people think the agent is the only character involved who's capable of planning ahead, or why people act as if Havoc Squad is some blunt instrument/"dumb" squad that doesn't know how to fight "dirty" or against the kind of tactics the agent would use and doesn't benefit from working with the SIS (Balkar), for example, which would also counter the agent's advantage.

 

Agent is excellent sniper, he is scalpel, where trooper is just hammer, its precision strikes against blunt force.

 

Again, Havoc Squad is a Special Forces unit that specializes in dealing with situations that have it used as a "scalpel". It isn't a front-line unit that is only used in brute combat. Did you pay attention to the trooper story, where you're tasked with infiltrating hostile areas and conducting precise operations? Special Forces units are used specifically for particularly difficult/complicated missions or those that require precision - that's their entire point.

 

 

Your whole post seems like Republic propaganda, or just hate Agent for a)having better story b)having much more awesome uniforms (designed by Hugo Boss) c)serving better cause d)not having ridiculously looking cannon, that looks like trooper is compensating for something e)having much better ship and most importantly f)agents gets all the women:D

 

Uh, okay. The agent story is actually my favorite story and I've enjoyed replaying it multiple times. The fan(boy/girl)ing and rampant exaggeration of how capable the agent is, however, is annoying. The agent story is great because there are twists and turns your agent has to uncover and deal with, not because the agent is some omnipotent, omniscient, Batman-esque character.

 

I also find it annoying that people seem to either ignore or be ignorant about what Havoc Squad's capabilities would be and just write the trooper off as "dumb soldier with a big gun", as that's completely inaccurate.

 

Regarding snipers-two words: Simo Häyhä

 

From the Simo Häyhä Wiki article:

 

Soviet troops were not issued with white camouflage suits for most of the war, making them easily visible to snipers

 

So he racked up a huge (and possibly disputed, I only had time for a quick search) kill count on largely inexperienced targets who stood out because of their uniforms given the weather conditions. Great!

 

And, in any case, there's no reason to assume that Cipher Nine is a better sniper than Jorgan.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Lesaberisa

[tomkyselk]

You know what elite military units, especially when they're Special Forces, do? The exact same thing - they stack as many advantages as they can. Special Forces units like Havoc Squad, which again is more akin to something like Delta Force or the Seals than a regular Army squad, would be using similar strategies as the agent. Why do people assume that Cipher Nine is somehow this omnipotent plotter that can magically control all variables? Why do people act as if Havoc Squad is some blunt instrument that doesn't know how to fight "dirty" and doesn't benefit from working with the SIS (Balkar) and other organizations?

People consider trooper blunt instrument probably because of that ridiculous cannon, which is about as subtle and precise as Death Star crewed by drunken Russians.

But also because trooper is part of army, that means, that imperial agents in Rep. army can gain info on their deployment (not always of course, but opportunity might-and probably would-arise. While agent is more like independent operative working of the grid and not bothered with paperwork (huge plus for agent btw.) and thus far more difficult to track

Also, Havoc squad are heroes, know to both sides, and they get attention, while agent works in shadows, and few people know him

 

Uh, okay. The agent story is actually my favorite story and I've enjoyed replaying it multiple times. The fan(boy/girl)ing and rampant exaggeration of how capable the agent is, however, is annoying.

Guess we are bit stuck here:D. We both played both classes and know their capabilities but you seem to consider trooper much stronger, while I consider agent better. Not just overrating agent, just saying that shot from ambush fired by skilled sniper (and with recoiless laser weapon, whose shot is not affected by wind or gravity it is not that hard) will have first kill advantage over advancing squad. That´s whole point of ambush. Getting first salvo off. How ambushed deals with attack is where trooper skill would be useful and in prolonged exchange he would roflstomp agent, but if agents just fires, kills trooper(or not) and exfiltrates no matter result, he would remain relatively save.

 

 

 

From the Simo Häyhä Wiki article:

 

 

 

So he racked up a huge kill count on largely inexperienced targets who stood out because of their uniforms given the weather conditions. Great!

 

And, in any case, there's no reason to assume that Cipher Nine is a better sniper than Jorgan.

Just what is difference between RKKA soldiers marching through white terrain in green/brown uniforms and Republic soldiers marching through green/brown terrain in white armor?

[Frenesi]

Trooper IS blunt instrument. Go and replay intro. Forward assault, search and destroy, advance recon. And no, trooper can't summon orbital strikes. Sniper can. Also, you conviniently missed my point of trooper NOT being able to deal with prepared sniper, for simple lack of tools. You also missed entire part on operative.

 

Again, on prepared ground, agent will kill trooper 10/10 times. And since preparation is huge parte of agent's profile, it's not exactly honest to deny him that. In open combat, trooper will always kill agent - becouse of beter arsenal and combat training.

 

And yes, Jorgan is worse sniper than potential agent - simply becouse agent is player character. It's safe to assume all companions are weaker.

[Azareya]

Can I just point out that both contestants were fresh out of training at the start of their respective stories? Not just C9.

Regardless, their accomplishments are no less impressive for it, they've both earned their infamy as the galaxy's best.

 

Actually no, Havoc Commander was stated at the start of the game when you first meet Tavus "People, this is the new sergeant I mentioned—ranked first in the Academy in Forward Assault, Search and Destroy, and Advanced Recon. It's good to have you, Sergeant"

 

So even at the start he has more experience than the agent

 

And I agree with Lesaberisa, Special Forces Unit are not average, normal run of the mill or even "hard" to beat, they're elite of the elite of the elite considering that Garza keeps most if not all of Spec OPs hidden from well everyone, they're not just designed to be grunts and kill, like I said "..Advanced Recon." It's not like Havoc Squad is going in blind, and even if they do it has shown up that they come out on top. Don't forget that Havoc took out Shadow Fist "Members of the Shadow Fist were considered among the most deadliest agents of the Sith Emperor."

 

Furthemore "ven Arkos Rakton, the Empire's most feared general who was not only considered one of the top soldiers in the Galaxy but possessed extreme contempt for the Republic, viewed the Major with grudging respect, going so far as to call the young commander "the one worthy adversary in the whole Republic."

That's from an imp

 

I'm thinking most people that view the trooper as a blunt instrument most likely think the same about soldiers, just "dumb grunts" which is sad really.

 

To answer OP in a list:

Superior? Trooper

Better Trained? Trooper

Smarter? Agent but this depends on how you play him and pick at the end, if tactics and strategy? Trooper, they didn't name you Chief Military Advisor for nothing..

More Skilled? Trooper

Deadliest Crew? Trooper

 

Last but not least the Trooper can request aid from many allies, if not the Republic then the ones he saved throughout the story, especially the Deadeyes.

 

And don't forget that this all depends on what kind of Agent we are dealing with here?

Double Agent? it's over, no one dies except maybe the Agents former companions.

The Sith puppet Agent? I consider the dumbest of the bunch

Intelligence aligned Agent? dangerous with Intelligence help

The Rogue agent ? this one is the one to watch out for, the rest though not as much.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Azareya

[Frenesi]

Actually no, Havoc Commander was stated at the start of the game when you first meet Tavus "People, this is the new sergeant I mentioned—ranked first in the Academy in Forward Assault, Search and Destroy, and Advanced Recon. It's good to have you, Sergeant"

 

So even at the start he has more experience than the agent

And in War intelligence is not as important as Straight up combat, don't forget that Havoc Squad

 

And I agree with Lesaberisa, Special Forces Unit are not average, normal run of the mill or even "hard" to beat, they're elite of the elite of the elite, they're not just designed to be grunts and kill, like I said "..Advanced Recon." It's not like Havoc Squad is going in blind, and even if they do it has shown up that they come out on top. Don't forget that Havoc took out Shadow Fist "Members of the Shadow Fist were considered among the most deadliest agents of the Sith Emperor."

 

Furthemore "ven Arkos Rakton, the Empire's most feared general who was not only considered one of the top soldiers in the Galaxy but possessed extreme contempt for the Republic, viewed the Major with grudging respect, going so far as to call the young commander "the one worthy adversary in the whole Republic."

That's from an imp

 

You even played trooper story? They go in blind all the time, with info being provided by SIS or Garza directly. They are special strike force, and that's extremely different from what agent does.

[Lesaberisa]

People consider trooper blunt instrument probably because of that ridiculous cannon, which is about as subtle and precise as Death Star crewed by drunken Russians.

 

(1) Not every trooper is a commando

(2) Special Forces units, especially elite ones like Havoc, are precise instruments. That's the entire point of having a Special Forces in the first place.

 

But also because trooper is part of army, that means, that imperial agents in Rep. army can gain info on their deployment (not always of course, but opportunity might-and probably would-arise. While agent is more like independent operative working of the grid and not bothered with paperwork (huge plus for agent btw.) and thus far more difficult to track

 

Also, Havoc squad are heroes, know to both sides, and they get attention, while agent works in shadows, and few people know him

 

The agent is still known by people and (worse) it's even known if they were disloyal at the end of Act 3 - Darth Marr even specifically references it. Regardless, Special Forces operates independently in the Republic - the fact Garza doesn't always inform the Senate/military/SIS of what's going on is a plot point and suggests that Imperial agents wouldn't actually have access to mission plans (especially as Garza tends to manage Havoc directly).

 

 

Guess we are bit stuck here:D. We both played both classes and know their capabilities but you seem to consider trooper much stronger, while I consider agent better. Not just overrating agent, just saying that shot from ambush fired by skilled sniper (and with recoiless laser weapon, whose shot is not affected by wind or gravity it is not that hard) will have first kill advantage over advancing squad. That´s whole point of ambush. Getting first salvo off. How ambushed deals with attack is where trooper skill would be useful and in prolonged exchange he would roflstomp agent, but if agents just fires, kills trooper(or not) and exfiltrates no matter result, he would remain relatively save.

 

Why would Havoc be advancing as a squad instead of using their own tactics? That's not how Special Forces works - Havoc would be operating under similar plans as the agent (Jorgan providing cover as a sniper, Yuun maybe using special scanners to detect things, 4X as "bait").

 

 

Just what is difference between RKKA soldiers marching through white terrain in green/brown uniforms and Republic soldiers marching through green/brown terrain in white armor?

 

Why would Havoc Squad be wearing white armor, because in-game your armor doesn't switch color? Special Forces in real life use camouflage and disguise themselves, so why would Havoc Squad be any different?

 

Also, part of the point was that his kills were against a Soviet army that performed very poorly as a whole, had just gone through a major purge of its officer corps and whose skill level simply doesn't compare to what Havoc's would be.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Lesaberisa

[Codedrago]

 

Why would Havoc be advancing as a squad instead of using their own tactics? That's not how Special Forces works - Havoc would be operating under similar plans as the agent (Jorgan providing cover as a sniper, Yuun maybe using special scanners to detect things, 4X as "bait").

 

Off-topic, but why does Jorgan have a background of leading a team of snipers and we never get to see him use a sniper?

[Azareya]

You even played trooper story? They go in blind all the time, with info being provided by SIS or Garza directly. They are special strike force, and that's extremely different from what agent does.

 

Please read again I said "It's not like Havoc Squad is going in blind, and.. even if they do it has shown up that they come out on top.."

Edited October 9, 2015 by Azareya

[Lesaberisa]

Trooper IS blunt instrument. Go and replay intro. Forward assault, search and destroy, advance recon

 

Do you not understand what Special Forces units are for (in real life or in the game)? They aren't blunt instruments. Forward assault doesn't literally mean you're only skilled in brute forcing an attack. Search and destroy means precisely targeting and taking out a target (which you seem to think only an agent is capable of) and recon is almost the definition of being subtle and not being a blunt instrument. Special Forces units exist specifically to handle the kind of work regular units can't handle but that require more muscle than an agent could handle on their own.

 

Since you wanted to point to real life snipers as proof of how amazing a sniper agent would be, why not look at what real life Special Forces do, too? It isn't acting as a blunt instrument.

 

And no, trooper can't summon orbital strikes. Sniper can.

 

You do realize that's just a game mechanic, right? There's no reason why a supposed secret agent would be able to call in an orbital strike when a soldier wouldn't, anyway.

 

Also, you conviniently missed my point of trooper NOT being able to deal with prepared sniper, for simple lack of tools .

 

Why? Because you said so? Troopers would have training to deal with snipers, the trooper has a sniper in their squad, and the trooper would be perfectly capable of planning ahead too. Do you think the Havoc Squad commander would be so inept as to not consider there being a sniper or other kind of surprise/ambush planned?

 

You also missed entire part on operative

 

You mean the part where you hand-waved away all the trooper's training and advantages to say the operative would just stab them once and kill them?

 

Again, on prepared ground, agent will kill trooper 10/10 times. And since preparation is huge parte of agent's profile, it's not exactly honest to deny him that. In open combat, trooper will always kill agent - becouse of beter arsenal and combat training.

 

Preparation and planning is also a "huge part" of being a soldier too. Even more so when you're a Special Forces unit that is specifically assigned to difficult and delicate missions that regular military units can't handle, especially when you're in a unit that has resources that would help prepare you as well (i.e. the SIS).

 

 

I don't understand why you seem to think only an agent would benefit from prep time.

 

And yes, Jorgan is worse sniper than potential agent - simply becouse agent is player character. It's safe to assume all companions are weaker.

 

So I'll be generous and assume the agent is not only a sniper but better than Jorgan. So what? Why would a trooper be unable to deal with a sniper?

 

You seem to be arguing that the agent would always win because

 

(1) The agent is not only a sniper but an incredibly skilled one (despite never showing that skill during the story - the agent's strengths seem to be infiltration and sabotage)

(2) Havoc is incapable of dealing with a "prepared" sniper because it "doesn't have the tools"(?)

(3) Havoc would blindly walk into the ambush/attack

(4) Havoc has no method for dealing with surprise attacks and/or has no way of preparing itself for the situation

(5) Havoc is a blunt instrument incapable of dealing with any kind of subtlety or nuance in a mission

 

I really feel like you're grossly underestimating and misunderstanding what Havoc would be capable of, especially since the unit is specifically used in the kind of "shadow warfare" people seem to think the agent is the only one capable of handling.

 

 

 

Edit

 

Off-topic, but why does Jorgan have a background of leading a team of snipers and we never get to see him use a sniper?

 

I don't think it's ever explained. It could be for aesthetic reasons/wanting to have a commando companion that's clearly a commando (since Elara uses a pistol). I don't know - Zenith can use a sniper rifle, so I don't understand why they didn't have Jorgan use one too.

 

Double edit: I actually found an old reddit post that said he did use sniper rifles in beta at one point but that that was removed. Disappointing...

Edited October 9, 2015 by Lesaberisa