A non's force user would make sence in this new story?

[tvaxquivax]

Or even some of the old contet we have?

I mean, i know my agent is powerful in his own ways, but i don't see him facing 1x1 some foes the way it's mostly portrayed, it seems a bit far fetched.

 

What do you all think about this?

Edited October 4, 2015 by tvaxquivax

[Saelinne]

It is ''sense'''....fix your title...actually don't - let the thread die.

 

In the star wars discussion zone there is similar thread if you want to discuss this...

[tvaxquivax]

It is ''sense'''....fix your title...actually don't - let the thread die.

 

thanks

Edited October 4, 2015 by tvaxquivax

[Cythereal]

Just like in the movies, enough training and equipment can be more than a match for arrogant little mutants and their magic powers.

[SithKoriandr]

Just like in the movies, enough training and equipment can be more than a match for arrogant little mutants and their magic powers.

 

Just not the awesome ones.

[nimmerstil]

There's been a bit of inflation in the power of the Force since the movies. If you look at the abilities in the movies, Jedi (and SIth) aren't all that invincible against non-force-users.

 

I also sense an increasing importance of companions, with the hints on Alliances and the renaming of Affection into Influence, a nudge in the direction of Mass Effect.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nimmerstil

[SithKoriandr]

There's been a bit of inflation in the power of the Force since the movies. If you look at the abilities in the movies, Jedi (and SIth) aren't all that invincible against non-force-users.

 

I also sense an increasing importance of companions, with the hints on Alliances and the renaming of Affection into Influence, a nudge in the direction of Mass Effect.

 

A force user with a light saber tend to (when of enough ability) to take on armies. That is what the movies show.

 

The enemy of a force user who isn't a force user themselves fear them for very good reasons.

 

This isn't to say there aren't other areas that force users get beat in. The force may guide them in their piloting skills, but dog fighting seems to require some skill on that front as well, and not total reliance on the force.

 

Problem is, none of the stories end on that note You don't bring a knife to a gun fight, but you don't bring a blaster to a lightsaber fight

[Kaisernick]

Cad bane and death wtach not to mention order 66 and HK and atton tell you that jedi and sith are not invicable its just about hitting them right rather than foolishly charging at them.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kaisernick

[Cythereal]

A force user with a light saber tend to (when of enough ability) to take on armies. That is what the movies show.

 

The enemy of a force user who isn't a force user themselves fear them for very good reasons.

 

This isn't to say there aren't other areas that force users get beat in. The force may guide them in their piloting skills, but dog fighting seems to require some skill on that front as well, and not total reliance on the force.

 

Problem is, none of the stories end on that note You don't bring a knife to a gun fight, but you don't bring a blaster to a lightsaber fight

 

Well... you know, except for the large numbers of Jedi and Sith who can't take on armies. Very few are of sufficient caliber to be, in TOR terms, raid bosses. The books also tend to go into great detail about how the Force is a very powerful asset, but it can't fight a Force-wielder's battles for them. And there are some mundane people who are just that good that they can outfight a Sith or Jedi in the full of their power, and bring that Force-wielder to their knees due to the sheer disparity of skill and ability.

 

Imperial agents, bounty hunters, smugglers, and troopers in TOR are all that good, and kill Jedi and Sith in droves in TOR. And they will again in KOTFE.

 

Pretending otherwise is the slightly more grown up version of the kid running around shouting "You can't hurt me, I have a force field!" when playing cops and robbers.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Cythereal

[Rhyltran]

Well... you know, except for the large numbers of Jedi and Sith who can't take on armies. Very few are of sufficient caliber to be, in TOR terms, raid bosses. The books also tend to go into great detail about how the Force is a very powerful asset, but it can't fight a Force-wielder's battles for them. And there are some mundane people who are just that good that they can outfight a Sith or Jedi in the full of their power, and bring that Force-wielder to their knees due to the sheer disparity of skill and ability.

 

Imperial agents, bounty hunters, smugglers, and troopers in TOR are all that good, and kill Jedi and Sith in droves in TOR. And they will again in KOTFE.

 

Pretending otherwise is the slightly more grown up version of the kid running around shouting "You can't hurt me, I have a force field!" when playing cops and robbers.

 

What do they do against Sith capable of force crush? There's certain things that just can't be dodged. Same with force drain. There's powers some force users can just aim their hand in their direction and that's it. The top tier force users have never been slain in star wars in a one on one fight with a non force user. You're right there's people who can beat masters in a one on one fight as well as Darths but Valkorion level is a massive stretch when he's drained worlds.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rhyltran

[BrianDavion]

Honestly, there is at least one scene we've seen that is LAUGHABLE on a non force user. where Valkerion tells you "only you have merited my full attention" makes perfect sense for the Jedi Knight (who I suspect if SWTOR was ever canonized would be the canon outlander) or the Sith Warrior, works just fine for the JC or inqusitor (although the SI is a bi odd in that he/she has never interacted with the Emperor prior to Ziost)

 

so no I don't really think the new story is gonna work very well for the BH, Agent smuggy or trooper. it'll MOSTLY work, but there will be the odd 'huh?" moment

Edited October 4, 2015 by BrianDavion

[SithKoriandr]

Well... you know, except for the large numbers of Jedi and Sith who can't take on armies. Very few are of sufficient caliber to be, in TOR terms, raid bosses. The books also tend to go into great detail about how the Force is a very powerful asset, but it can't fight a Force-wielder's battles for them. And there are some mundane people who are just that good that they can outfight a Sith or Jedi in the full of their power, and bring that Force-wielder to their knees due to the sheer disparity of skill and ability.

 

Imperial agents, bounty hunters, smugglers, and troopers in TOR are all that good, and kill Jedi and Sith in droves in TOR. And they will again in KOTFE.

 

Pretending otherwise is the slightly more grown up version of the kid running around shouting "You can't hurt me, I have a force field!" when playing cops and robbers.

 

They kill the simple ones in droves. They kill the padawans and the barely a Jedi/Lords.

 

Watching the Agent storyline on SoR, my first thought was "Why didn't Revan just use the force to break the agents neck" the one class that outright says they're not force sensitive (no matter what people's head canon may say).

 

And if we're going to go by "well we do this and this" well then my sniper isn't a sniper, because she can't seem to hit anything at a distance with a sniper rifle

[nimmerstil]

A force user with a light saber tend to (when of enough ability) to take on armies. That is what the movies show.

 

No, they don't. They may escape from armies, hold 'm off for a second or two or otherwise outsmart them, but they only take on small groups.

 

Problem is, none of the stories end on that note You don't bring a knife to a gun fight, but you don't bring a blaster to a lightsaber fight

I've always wonder, dual wielding blasters would go a long way, or synchronized firing from multiple angles, a lightsaber can only be in one place at a time

[Cythereal]

They kill the simple ones in droves. They kill the padawans and the barely a Jedi/Lords.

 

And the Darths. And the Jedi Masters. And the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order.

[Jake_Chambers]

I've always wonder, dual wielding blasters would go a long way, or synchronized firing from multiple angles, a lightsaber can only be in one place at a time

 

Blaster fire really isn't much of a concern to some Jedi, let's take someone like Obi-Wan. He's deflected blaster fire from hundreds of droids at once, even in the movie we see how casually both he and Qui-Gon and Anakin and Mace block it. Jedi's have a reaction time a lot faster than those of blasters. As for the lightsaber only being in one place at a time, top Jedi have super sonic speed, and even more in the case of the top top-tier Jedi like Mace when he fought Palpatine. Even Anakin remarked that he had trouble seeing the blades.

 

That being said, a lot of Jedi, just like Sith, are cannon fodder, they're supposed to be. It could be argued that even someone like Obi-Wan was about to be taken out by Jango. Mandalorians have given Jedi's and Sith's trouble and they aren't Force Empowered.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Jake_Chambers

[Wolfninjajedi]

 

It could be argued that even someone like Obi-Wan was about to be taken out by Jango. Mandalorians have given Jedi's and Sith's trouble and they aren't Force Empowered.

 

Eh not really, Obi-Wan was going for capture not kill, Jango also had help from Boba and even then he still kinda got his *** kicked aside from the rocket he fired and then dragging Obi-Wan around, it's noted that Jango had ran out of ideas to fight Obi-Wan and Boba helped him out when he needed.

 

So Obi-Wan was sorta holding back not wanting to kill, whereas Jango pretty much utilized all his arsenal just to even get out of there.

 

Truth on the Mandalorians though, but as far as 1 vs 1 goes, your regular Jedi/Sith > regular Mandalorian or dude with a blaster.

 

It's more in the latter's favor if they have either prep, or an assortment of gadgets/weaponry that would give them some kinda edge, both is pretty good.

[jankiel]

Well the imperial agent is either able to go toe-to-toe with

Jadus

or even kill

Zhorrid - a full Dark Council member.

I think this easily shows that he is not to be trifled with and could get Valkorions attention.

Edited October 4, 2015 by jankiel

[Rhyltran]

Well the imperial agent is either able to go toe-to-toe with

Jadus

or even kill

Zhorrid - a full Dark Council member.

I think this easily shows that he is not to be trifled with and could get Valkorions attention.

 

Jadus is situational. If you fight Jadus you don't really beat him. You survive long enough that the plan can be acted upon. If you fight Zhorrid she's recovering from being jumped by the dark council and stubbornly refusing to heal. She's not at her full strength.

 

Also not every dark council member is equal. Lord Drahg "One shots" Vowrawn by using some dark side ability to render him unable to move or act. Note Drahg isn't even on the council and Vowrawn is.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rhyltran

[BrianDavion]

They kill the simple ones in droves. They kill the padawans and the barely a Jedi/Lords.

 

Watching the Agent storyline on SoR, my first thought was "Why didn't Revan just use the force to break the agents neck" the one class that outright says they're not force sensitive (no matter what people's head canon may say).

 

And if we're going to go by "well we do this and this" well then my sniper isn't a sniper, because she can't seem to hit anything at a distance with a sniper rifle

 

 

I think it's worth noting though that in ROTS a 14 year old kid, not even a padawan managed to take down several highly trained clone troopers. it basicly took a squad (or more) to take him down. and this was members of the highly trained, highly experianced 501st who where perpared for Jedi.

[Rhyltran]

I think it's worth noting though that in ROTS a 14 year old kid, not even a padawan managed to take down several highly trained clone troopers. it basicly took a squad (or more) to take him down. and this was members of the highly trained, highly experianced 501st who where perpared for Jedi.

 

Yeah, the 501st were the most elite most ****** and even then a Jedi initiate wasn't easy.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think it's worth noting though that in ROTS a 14 year old kid, not even a padawan managed to take down several highly trained clone troopers. it basicly took a squad (or more) to take him down. and this was members of the highly trained, highly experianced 501st who where perpared for Jedi.

 

Eh he was a Padawan actually(Zett Jukassa btw), still though it doesn't take away from it.

 

Although thinking on it now, the Clones just overwhelmed their opponents in pretty much all the movies and in Order 66.

 

Strictly speaking just from the movies standpoint, the Clones didn't really enact any tactics or anything, so they weren't really prepared but moreso just overwhelm the enemy with firepower....well that and having a Sith Lord mop up the Jedi Masters helps out.

 

Which is hilarious when thought about, seeing people think Clones are superior, yet Stormtroopers actually showed things such as overwhelming firepower, tactic maneuvering, stealth, breaching doors, impressive accuracy and H2H combat by just the movies alone.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Cythereal]

Counterpoint: the Agent defeats and possibly defeats Ardun Kothe, a rogue Jedi Master, and the Bounty Hunter knocks off a whole lot including a Jedi Master who's a celebrated war hero, an elite Jedi Knight leading an assassination team, the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, and potentially Darth Tormen. Plus of course both classes can take down quite a few Jedi Masters over the course of the cross-class general Imperial stories - and yes, those are valid for agents and bounty hunters to do exactly as presented.

 

Republic side, the Smuggler beats down a Sith Lord, Jedi Knight, or both on Tatooine, and both the Smuggler and Trooper can kill a number of Sith during general Republic stories.

 

Considering half the classes in this game are not Force sensitive, yes they make sense in the story and yes Vitiate, Valkorion, and other powerful Force lords will find their equal and quite probably their superior in someone who can't use the Force. Poetic, really, that they'd be undone by a "mere mundane."

Edited October 4, 2015 by Cythereal

[Rhyltran]

Counterpoint: the Agent defeats and possibly defeats Ardun Kothe, a rogue Jedi Master, and the Bounty Hunter knocks off a whole lot including a Jedi Master who's a celebrated war hero, an elite Jedi Knight leading an assassination team, the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, and potentially Darth Tormen. Plus of course both classes can take down quite a few Jedi Masters over the course of the cross-class general Imperial stories - and yes, those are valid for agents and bounty hunters to do exactly as presented.

 

Republic side, the Smuggler beats down a Sith Lord, Jedi Knight, or both on Tatooine, and both the Smuggler and Trooper can kill a number of Sith during general Republic stories.

 

Considering half the classes in this game are not Force sensitive, yes they make sense in the story and yes Vitiate, Valkorion, and other powerful Force lords will find their equal and quite probably their superior in someone who can't use the Force. Poetic, really, that they'd be undone by a "mere mundane."

 

There's a big gap between some master and someone like Vitiate. Look, it takes a lot of suspension of disbelief there. Valkorion can drain entire worlds dry. How does a non-force sensitives avoid "Being drained dry." standing in front of a sith lord who has mastered drain life and death field? Or how about force crush? Or force kill? What do you do as a non-force sensitive against a force user who can move faster than you can see, kill you by simply pointing a finger at you, etc?

 

The answer is by fighting along another force user who can hold said person off and prevent you from being one shotted. Truth is non-force users can only do so much. A non force user in a one on one fight would never be able to beat Nihilus, Exar Kun, etc. You do realize there's force users who have tanked capital ships turbolasers? Lol.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rhyltran

[nimmerstil]

As for the lightsaber only being in one place at a time, top Jedi have super sonic speed,

If at lightspeed they couldn't be at two place at the same time. In the movies you never see them deflecting thousands of blaster shots at the same time, do we, not even dozens. Never more then one, actually. We could step through them, frame by frame ....

 

and even more in the case of the top top-tier Jedi like Mace when he fought Palpatine. Even Anakin remarked that he had trouble seeing the blades.

Lots of sports where the untrained eye will not see objects move where a trained eye will. Doesn't need superhuman skills.

 

That being said, a lot of Jedi, just like Sith, are cannon fodder, they're supposed to be. It could be argued that even someone like Obi-Wan was about to be taken out by Jango. Mandalorians have given Jedi's and Sith's trouble and they aren't Force Empowered.

 

It all becomes a bit easier to handle story and plot-wise when you bring these powers back to what they were in the movies.

[Wolfninjajedi]

There's a big gap between some master and someone like Vitiate. Look, it takes a lot of suspension of disbelief there. Valkorion can drain entire worlds dry. How does a non-force sensitives avoid "Being drained dry." standing in front of a sith lord who has mastered drain life and death field? Or how about force crush? Or force kill? What do you do as a non-force sensitive against a force user who can move faster than you can see, kill you by simply pointing a finger at you, etc?

 

Simple....plot, it works well in comics/novels and moves, so why not games too?