Level synch = Revival of SWTOR

[TUXs]

Yes you did.

 

"MOM was a terrible expansion. On top of that, that's when things began to drastically change in the store"

 

its right there few posts above rofl

 

please, 3yrs old again?

Yes, but that's not how I meant it. The game was doing well after MOM was released...new content always brings in players.

 

And really? Insults? Is that the best you can do? Are you screaming at your monitor too?

[Quraswren]

DENY! DENY EVERYTHING! rofl

 

Guess what?

 

Same thing in LOTRO

Same thing in WS

Same thing in WoW

 

Same claims, same denial of facts, same everything.

 

Yes, you do seem to have a problem in believing that more than 5% raid. It's a mental bloke you have for some reason when looking right at numbers from wow. Even if you look at just the 2.3 million accounts. If 70% of that are raiding in some capacity, its more tahn your imagined 5%( your dislike for LFR no one cares about) and since we know by the time they finished seige of org. there were not 10 million total account but less and yet they were able to pull 2.3 million account information stats from the statistics and show more than 5% are stepping into raids.

 

It's no wonder some small number were raiding in lotro. Lotroo wasn't that strong a game to anyway.

 

However, SWTOR being such a clone of wow, I have no doubt in my mind more than 5% of the gamers are stepping into SM. Definitely not HM but SM. You can debate against that opinion sure but thats about all you can do.

[Mikahrtwo]

Yes, you do seem to have a problem in believing that more than 5% raid. It's a mental bloke you have for some reason when looking right at numbers from wow. Even if you look at just the 2.3 million accounts. If 70% of that are raiding in some capacity, its more tahn your imagined 5%( your dislike for LFR no one cares about) and since we know by the time they finished seige of org. there were not 10 million total account but less and yet they were able to pull 2.3 million account information stats from the statistics and show more than 5% are stepping into raids.

 

It's no wonder some small number were raiding in lotro. Lotroo wasn't that strong a game to anyway.

 

However, SWTOR being such a clone of wow, I have no doubt in my mind more than 5% of the gamers are stepping into SM. Definitely not HM but SM. You can debate against that opinion sure but thats about all you can do.

 

I have facts you have opinions....that go against the facts. Against all available data and even statements directly from developers. YES, opinions can be wrong. Yes you are in denial.

 

Nice talking to you rofl

[EnkiduNineEight]

For the record, I quit LOTRO because they kept making the Captain worse. What was a great class in Alpha/Closed Beta got made worse and worse and worse and even though I have a lifetime membership I haven't touched the game for ages and ages.

 

That has nothing to do with this current discussion, I'm just saying it because they screwed Captains! *shakes fist*

 

Honestly, I'm not really of the opinion that raiders should be catered to. I do believe that they are a small bbut very vocal minority in most every game I have been a part of and I have been around since before there were graphics. As a Wizard/Admin on MUD's and as a creator of the same we always had to deal with the small segment who wanted to achieve and be 'elite' and balancing the games well enough for it to be fun for them and then fun for the rest of the community that was far larger was difficult to say the least.

 

The concern I have with the level sync system was that it was introduced purely as a way to 'breath new life' into old content. And I get this as a motivation and I can understand why it has been considered a good idea by the people implementing it. My greater concern though is how it affects the game's longevity as I've been around long enough to know that hinging your hopes on the 'new players' you hope to attract from the changes generally does not work well.

 

It has been my own experience that it is a much more difficult route and one that requires an investment from the developer/producer to create a game people like. This is NOT catering to what they say they want on the message boards, because what players say they want and what they actually stick around and play with are two different things.

 

More you need to create player experiences, gauge interest in opportunities that players are expressing an interest in. Often Raiders aren't really looking for the progression and the tough bosses, they are looking for instances in which teamwork and group participation are rewarded most often with loot and titles. Certainly there is an even smaller subset that are truly gifted gamers and they are looking for a supreme challenge, but these people are part of a tiny tiny subset and catering to them makes the game unattractive to the majority.

 

SWTOR's main failing has, in my opinion, been that by focusing to much on _their_ story they have made it difficult to create your own stories. While having the single player experience in place is certianly a good thing, they should also have focused on the tools that allowed players to 'create' their own content and adding sandbox elements to the themepark. Also, as other players are likely going to always be your best and biggest challenge, it was a shame when SWTOR focused on the WoW model of 'Warzones' and did not utilise their purchase of Mythic to create an integrated 'realm vs realm' PVP system that did not require participation but which served as a stand in for 'raids'. Its very difficult to feel you are part of a galactic conflict 16 players at a time.

 

This is not really the place for a treatise on the subject and I by no means have all the answers, but I can say Level Syncing like this appears to me as a potential for significant diminishment of a game I loved. Recycling old content isn't going to encourage the old players and its not likely to hook the new ones either. So shortly after they put in the 12x system (one I was quite opposed to mind you) because players were telling you they were 'bored' with repeating content, you change your system to remove the 12x you added in AND tell them they're going to essentially repeat old content on planets they've already been through. Its not because the content was too easy that they didn't want to go back.

 

Its unfortunate that many of the things I would do, given total control, can not be done due to engine limitations.

 

My expectation is that this is going to go live, people will devour the story line, they'll try to grind out their companion influence/alliances and then swiftly be bored by the newly glacial pace of 'achievement' especially as they learn they're going to have to repeat this multiple times on multiple characters. Making it more 'challenging' by enforcing level syncing just stretches this out into a 'grind' and most players, no matter their type, really dislike the grind and dislike it more so when they have multiple characters that will have to experience the same.

 

Scaling 'heroic content' only, and working on systems that are dynamic content, would have been a better move IMO. Random 'Dungeons' and missions, with puzzle elements, team work requirements, but 'scaling' so that the content is challenging but has no level requirement so all players of all levels can participate would likely have been more well received. Think 'Kuat' on steroids. When instead of a small number of mission types with the same map each time, and just 'pick three' you create puzzle elements and integrate many of them into a single instance.... but this would have required more effort. But frankly, I would have spent millions on my coders not my animators making a spiffy short movie.

 

I'm rambling at this point so I'll stop.

[SpiesAreUs]

To anyone getting into a conversation with Mikahrtwo in any forum should seriously consider not doing it,especially if you're making comments against BW.

At first I thought he was a fanboy bordering on a troll ,but now I realise he just goes out of his way to disagree,antagonise and take any comment you make and twist it ,turn it around and generally make you look like the 'bad guy'.

I'm starting to suspect he's on a payroll.

Just move round the forums and check out his posts for yourself.

Ignore this person if he responds to your posts.

Edited October 14, 2015 by SpiesAreUs

[Mikahrtwo]

Its unfortunate that many of the things I would do, given total control, can not be done due to engine limitations.

 

Yes, there are many people that wish back there in 2005, and later when they changed their minds to go after WoW crowd things turned out differently.

 

but we have what we have, and they are at least trying to make things right, go back to their initial vision, because WoW thingy failed miserably. All i want form SWTOR at this point is more BW/RPG and less generic MMO.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Mikahrtwo

[Transcendent]

I have facts you have opinions....that go against the facts. Against all available data and even statements directly from developers. YES, opinions can be wrong. Yes you are in denial.

 

Nice talking to you rofl

 

Now show us all where the figures are for this MMO please? Or is it pure speculation on your part with no evidence to back it up? Oh, what was that? BioWare don't release that hard data to the public?

 

If you don't have those figures, then it's pure speculation pure and simple as to the % in SWTOR who do raid, and those who don't. You can place anecdotal evidence or refer to any other game you like, the FACT is you simply don't have those figures for SWTOR (and good luck asking BioWare to release that information).

 

Edited October 14, 2015 by Transcendent

[Mikahrtwo]

Now show us all where the figures are for this MMO please? Or is it pure speculation on your part with no evidence to back it up? Oh, what was that? BioWare don't release that hard data to the public?

 

If you don't have those figures, then it's pure speculation pure and simple as to the % in SWTOR who do raid, and those who don't. You can place anecdotal evidence or refer to any other game you like, the FACT is you simply don't have those figures for SWTOR (and good luck asking BioWare to release that information).

 

 

I dont have to ask BW anything, bunch of raiders whining on forums how they are irreplacable is not something new when company decides to cut the fat from the game. Guess what? Noone really cares, they are vocal, but since vast majority doesnt even look at forums they dont really disturb anyone and in the end doesnt give a rats a** about raids and raiding

[Transcendent]

I dont have to ask BW anything, bunch of raiders whining on forums how they are irreplacable is not something new when company decides to cut the fat from the game. Guess what? Noone really cares, they are vocal, but since vast majority doesnt even look at forums they dont really disturb anyone and in the end doesnt give a rats a** about raids and raiding

 

More anecdotal evidence.

 

Now provide those hard numbers? Back it up with FACTS? What's the matter, can't you back up your opinions with FACTS?

[IslanderRebel]

"To each his own, to own his each. All that matters is you practice what you preach."

It's your money paying for your sub for TOR.

When Fallen Empire comes out and all the new stuff doesn't bode well with you, then leave the game.

No one is forcing anybody to hang around and play tor for what it's about to become.

Deal with it, have fun playing with your friends or take a long walk on a short pier and say "asta la vista, baby!!" and ****.

Have a nice day.

[Mikahrtwo]

More anecdotal evidence.

 

Now provide those hard numbers? Back it up with FACTS? What's the matter, can't you back up your opinions with FACTS?

 

What anecdotal evidence? Actions speak louder than words.

[curulz]

Actions speak louder than words.

 

 

Prove it

[sentientomega]

And i have already said that there should be content in SWTOR that scales from 1-16 players, and group exclusive content should be super scarce.

 

So long as such scarce content bears ZERO resemblance to any kind of story...

[Quraswren]

SNIPO...Actions speak louder than words.

 

Very true and until you actually prove what you claim about SWTOR and it's raiding percentage, you are but words.

 

I have facts

 

Until you show some actual facts about SWTOR numbers and this imagined 5% you keep spouting off. You'll go down as just another poster that claims something but can't show any real proof.

 

At least I showed you some real numbers to back up my claim of how many are raiding in wow and it's well above 5%. No matter how much you might not like the difficulty of what they raid, their still raiding.

Nice talking to you rofl

 

I can't say the same. You got no game much less interesting information to back up what you claim to be the situation in SWTOR.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Quraswren

[Mikahrtwo]

Prove it

 

No new raids in SWTOR in forseeable future and focus on story.

 

Its like....all over these forums rofl.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Mikahrtwo

[sentientomega]

Scaling 'heroic content' only, and working on systems that are dynamic content, would have been a better move IMO. Random 'Dungeons' and missions, with puzzle elements, team work requirements, but 'scaling' so that the content is challenging but has no level requirement so all players of all levels can participate would likely have been more well received. Think 'Kuat' on steroids. When instead of a small number of mission types with the same map each time, and just 'pick three' you create puzzle elements and integrate many of them into a single instance.... but this would have required more effort. But frankly, I would have spent millions on my coders not my animators making a spiffy short movie.

 

We already have Kuat on steroids come 4.0, since:

 

Next, most of our Story Mode Flashpoints have been converted to Tactical, meaning you can play them at any level between 10 and 65! These Flashpoints also bolster your character, so you never have to worry about being under-geared or under-leveled, and can play with friends of varying levels. As an added bonus, each player can also receive loot specific to their Class and their non-bolstered level, so running these Flashpoints is always beneficial.

 

Here is a list of them:

 

Tactical Flashpoints

These 4-Player Flashpoints are available from level 10-65. Your character will be Bolstered so that friends of any level can play together!

 

Hammer Station

Athiss

Mandalorian Raiders

Cademimu

Red Reaper

Kuat Drive Yards

Czerka Labs

Czerka Core Meltdown

Korriban Incursion

Assault on Tython

Depths of Manaan

Legacy of the Rakata

Blood Hunt

Battle of Rishi

 

Note the level range, 10-65; and the larger range of levelling tacticals, if the others grant as much XP in a single run as KDY does, then it'll be great for people who like PUGing for GF content.

[Khevar]

And i have already said that there should be content in SWTOR that scales from 1-16 players, and group exclusive content should be super scarce.

You keep waving your arms around about operations, but that's not really your point, is it? You simply don't like grouping.

 

Are you also going to claim that the number of people that run group content of any kind (e.g. ops, flashpoints, heriocs, world bosses, events with group activities, etc) collectively make up a "super niche" minority that should be ignored as they are completely irrelevant to the game?

 

If Bioware (or some other developer) made a new (and good) single-player Star Wars RPG that you could play, would you even be here at all? What is it about this game that is appealing to you besides the SW universe itself?

Edited October 14, 2015 by Khevar

[Quraswren]

No new raids in SWTOR in forseeable future and focus on story.

 

Its like....all over these forums rofl.

 

That in no way proves your 5% theory.

 

Try again.

[Erasimus]

first of all, i've taken out groups of 5 with my fully pvp geared pt

second, when was the last time you saw a group of 5 questing around tattoine?

Taking out people that are AFK or BoTs doesn't count.

[Max_Killjoy]

Problem with that is there is no homogeneous "95%" that's doing the same thing - in this MMO or any other. The idea that Raiders or PVPers or Lore fans or whatever are insignificant because they 'only' constitute 5% or whatever is flawed.

 

Even if we accept that only 5% of players are raiding, it doesn't follow that the other 95% are doing the same other activity and subsidizing only the raiders. That thinking makes it seem that:

• 5% does [A]
  
• 95% does
  
• therefore it would be better if [A] went away so resources can go to , which way more people enjoy.
  

 

but in an MMO you actually have something like:

• 5% does [A]
  
• 15% does
  
• 8% does [C]
  
• 13% does [D]
  
• 2% does [E]
  
• 10%...
  

etc, etc, etc, with things like PVP, crafting, collecting achievements, leveling alts, playing minigames, etc., filling in all these many different little niches. Moreover, most players dabble in three or four of them, so a single player might fall into the percentage that does raiding, and the percentage that does PVP, and the percentage that decorates player housing.

 

If you start pruning out everything that falls below a certain threshold, even what may seem like a reasonable number like 20%, you're going to end up alienating a lot more than just 20% of you playerbase, you're going to alienate more like 80% (if not 100%) of it.

 

You don't have a monolithic majority subsidizing a minority, you have a collection of different minorities all subsidizing each other so that there's enough resources to support any/all of them.

 

Very well said -- awesome post.

 

 

If you'll excuse a little dramatic flair here, every time someone says "I don't care about X, screw X if this change makes the game terrible for them, it makes the game better for me and that makes it awesome"... I am reminded of a speech about something far more serious than a video game, but it still paints the right picture of their attitude...

 

"First they ruined the game for over-levelers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not an over-leveler.

 

Then they ruined the game for the casuals, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a casual.

 

Then they ruined the game for the RPers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a RPer.

 

Then they ruined the game for the raiders, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a raider.

 

Then they ruined the game for the crafters, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a crafter.

 

Then they ruined the game for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Edited October 14, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[EnkiduNineEight]

We already have Kuat on steroids come 4.0, since:

 

 

 

Here is a list of them:

 

 

 

Note the level range, 10-65; and the larger range of levelling tacticals, if the others grant as much XP in a single run as KDY does, then it'll be great for people who like PUGing for GF content.

 

This is not at all Kuat on Steroids. This is a bunch of content many people have already done, multiple times, being done again, repeatedly, ad infinitum.

 

Kuat on Steroids would be something like Kuat, where you have multiple different 'stage 1' possibilities, followed by multiple different 'Stage 2/End Boss' possibilities but.. being on steroids, you increase the number of possibilities significantly, you make the maps procedurally generated so they are not the same each time (though it pulls from common elements so a 'switch' room will look the same, or a 'trigger' room or a 'Boss' room, etc, so players have some idea, but the routes to them change with each map. There are ways to do this in a multiplayer environment Map generates server side, assets exist client side, all members of the group get fed the same map, client side builds from stored assets.

 

EG, creating more randomly generated missions that are more different each time you run them, rather than having the same map, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and breath and over and over and over.....

[Bakakiba]

Very well said -- awesome post.

 

 

If you'll excuse a little dramatic flair here, every time someone says "I don't care about X, screw X if this change makes the game terrible for them, it makes the game better for me and that makes it awesome"... I am reminded of a speech about something far more serious than a video game, but it still paints the right picture of their attitude...

 

"First they ruined the game for over-levelers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not an over-leveler.

 

Then they ruined the game for the casuals, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a casual.

 

Then they ruined the game for the RPers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a RPer.

 

Then they ruined the game for the raiders, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a raider.

 

Then they ruined the game for the crafters, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a crafter.

 

Then they ruined the game for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

 

You just had to go there. Wow.

[zeroshoot]

Very well said -- awesome post.

 

 

If you'll excuse a little dramatic flair here, every time someone says "I don't care about X, screw X if this change makes the game terrible for them, it makes the game better for me and that makes it awesome"... I am reminded of a speech about something far more serious than a video game, but it still paints the right picture of their attitude...

 

"First they ruined the game for over-levelers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not an over-leveler.

 

Then they ruined the game for the casuals, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a casual.

 

Then they ruined the game for the RPers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a RPer.

 

Then they ruined the game for the raiders, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a raider.

 

Then they ruined the game for the crafters, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a crafter.

 

Then they ruined the game for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

 

well said.

 

look bioware, over a thousand posts in this thread alone and there are many other posts questioning your idea of forced level sync.

 

it needs to be optional...

[Quraswren]

well said.

 

look bioware, over a thousand posts in this thread alone and there are many other posts questioning your idea of forced level sync.

 

it needs to be optional...

 

IT should have been an optional game play feature. They shouldn't have taken it off their wall of ideas without making it optional in a game thats 4 years old and based on leveling up.

 

Day one of design it should have been as an optional game play feature and not put out till it was.

[Pagy]

Taking out people that are AFK or BoTs doesn't count.

why am i not surprised that you think taking out 5 terrible pve'ers while you're wearing full pvp gear is difficult. it's not, and not the point i was trying to make.

the point is that level sync will not protect levelling players from being killed by players in pvp gear.