Level synch = Revival of SWTOR

[Max_Killjoy]

PS: *plonk* is old internet speak for "you've been placed on ignore -- your posts are no longer worth reading, your claims no longer with responding to, and your attitude toxic to the discussion"

 

E: maybe that seems harsh, but when you're constantly being told "Ha ha, no one cares if you enjoy the game any more, you're just a bad! We're going to like the game more, so you liking it less means nothing" by someone who has openly stated that they actually like to watch suffering, and who clearly doesn't care whether their statements are true...

Edited October 10, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[klashis]

To hear BW talk about FP and OPS there is a reason we're not getting any new ones.

 

BW apparently claims not enough cared for them so back to story as a main drive. Screw you if your guild did and other of course but I think that is a mistake in their design for launching this expansion. It's a piece of the MMO puzzle that needs new content just as much as PVP and just as much as story. Leaving out new content in a new expansion for 2 of thsoe 3 areas is a mistake in my eyes. Gamers consume story to quickly to rely so much on story, then leaving nothing but 1 to 4 year old content to try and hold gamers.

 

Im curious. Why do people think there are no new FPs or OPs coming at all? Who said that? The launch of xpac may not but im sure after the dust settles we will be getting FPs and OPs.. just wait. This generation has no patience. When have they ever dropped a new xpac and not given us FPs or Ops at some point ?

Edited October 10, 2015 by klashis

[Bakakiba]

PS: *plonk* is old internet speak for "you've been placed on ignore -- your posts are no longer worth reading, your claims no longer with responding to, and your attitude toxic to the discussion"

 

In other words, sticking your fingers in your ear. while saying "I can't hear you".

 

Funny how the pot never realizes how similar he is to the kettle.

[Shikyo]

another one of my great concern is aggro management in a group with a regular tank and either a lvl syncing lvl 60 healer or dmg dealer.

 

will lvl synced healer or dmg dealer pull in unusual more aggro than regular one?

 

note - i have seen this problem in another game with forced lvl syncing. it was based on gear quality. i do not know what aggro is based on in swtor.

 

Good question! And I personally imagine you are right that healers will generate more threat going off of the lines of 1 healing point equals 1 threat point considering they will still be synced down but outputting more than the level synced. I do imagine that the healing threat reducers you gain as skills and passives will play a role in minimizing this issue but still could be a pressing issue with it.

 

Just realized that you weren't sure how threat works in swtor:

1 damage point equals 1 threat point to the enemy hit by that damage. So a 1000 hit on one NPC out of three equals 1000 threat on that npc alone.

 

1 healing point equals 1 threat point on ALL active enemies. So in a group of 3 enemies if you heal a member for 1000 health you generate 1000 threat on all three enemies.

 

Tanks have threat multipliers built into their skills and passives that make them generate more threat than dps and healers. Healers have threat reductions built into their skills and passives that reduce that threat. DPS have nothing but damage multipliers. All roles and classes have abilities that reduce threat by a blanket percentage when activated. Those are set on a cool down like any other ability.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Shikyo

[Shikyo]

Ok, now I see why this appeals so much to you. And I accept that it will make life more interessting on PVP servers. But I am not convinced it'll do any good on PVE servers....

 

But for that we will have to wait and see.

 

Yup!

 

Problem lies that if it is optional on pve it will have to be on pvp servers because the game files aren't different on the servers you play. I imagine, but don't know, that level sync is imbedded in the game files and don't operate on a toggle like pvp flagging meaning they can't simply set the toggle to force on for a pvp server (like pvp toggle is) and not on a pve server.

 

This makes me not like the toggle idea but to be honest:

Current game system to me has lots of cons but the pros are enough to keep me playing, obviously lol.

 

New system looks to have more pros than cons on paper to me which again, keeps me playing.

 

So either way this change won't stop me from playing at this point unless when I get my hands on it, it ends up really sucking and tips the balance to not enough pros. I imagine I'm not alone in this feeling even if my perception and opinion isn't shared.

[DarkJediMage]

Yup!

 

Problem lies that if it is optional on pve it will have to be on pvp servers because the game files aren't different on the servers you play. I imagine, but don't know, that level sync is imbedded in the game files and don't operate on a toggle like pvp flagging meaning they can't simply set the toggle to force on for a pvp server (like pvp toggle is) and not on a pve server.

 

This makes me not like the toggle idea but to be honest:

Current game system to me has lots of cons but the pros are enough to keep me playing, obviously lol.

 

New system looks to have more pros than cons on paper to me which again, keeps me playing.

 

So either way this change won't stop me from playing at this point unless when I get my hands on it, it ends up really sucking and tips the balance to not enough pros. I imagine I'm not alone in this feeling even if my perception and opinion isn't shared.

 

imo - if the cons are strong enough to stop players for grouping caused by aggro issues or prevent players getting achievements, datacrons, gathering mats or going to high lvl zones in low planets, the cons will overweight the pros.

remember bioware is infamous in not fixing bugs fast or effectively.

Edited October 10, 2015 by DarkJediMage

[sentientomega]

To adress these points.

Granted it will be here a question of degrees. But I wonder if it really matters to Bioware to create a level playing field for whatever reasons, they should have done the full circle. Meaning level 65 on level 20 planet= level 20. No passives, no better gear, no better weapons. You are level 20 again. Only so could they really create a level playing field. In this way it's a half-baked story where it seems they had an idea but had not the courage to go through fully.

 

And secondly, I am myself surprised what people (myself included) read into those few bits of info.

 

Then leveling REALLY wouldn't matter, at least, they way BW:A plans to do it, levelling still matters; it still counts for something, being able to visit older planets, do older content and gain XP, it's far less about a level playing field than it is being able to rope in "higher" players for group content, like WBs. If BW:A did what you suggest, I wonder just how many players would appreciate having their quickbars messed up? And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

 

Part of the reward for levelling up is being able to remember that you did that, and enjoy the results of having done so, we levelled up that way the first time, we should never have to go through that with the same character, lowering stats etc, fine and dandy so we can play, more or less at their level, but being able to keep everything else also means that getting to 65 was WORTH IT.

Edited October 10, 2015 by sentientomega

[AntiochosTheos]

Then leveling REALLY wouldn't matter, at least, they way BW:A plans to do it, levelling still matters; it still counts for something, being able to visit older planets, do older content and gain XP, it's far less about a level playing field than it is being able to rope in "higher" players for group content, like WBs. If BW:A did what you suggest, I wonder just how many players would appreciate having their quickbars messed up? And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

 

But will all of those points(loot or XP) really matter to high or even max level?!? At level 65 I won't get any XP and legacy neither if I am level 50 with that... So I am not sure which player group they had in mind when instituting that. Maybe the expac is not enough to get you to level 65 then we need some kind of grind :-)

 

And regarding quickbars, they simply could leave the buttons where they are just grey them out/make them unusuable. But this just makes it feel half baked as well.

[JadedSins]

PS: *plonk* is old internet speak for "you've been placed on ignore -- your posts are no longer worth reading, your claims no longer with responding to, and your attitude toxic to the discussion"

 

E: maybe that seems harsh, but when you're constantly being told "Ha ha, no one cares if you enjoy the game any more, you're just a bad! We're going to like the game more, so you liking it less means nothing" by someone who has openly stated that they actually like to watch suffering, and who clearly doesn't care whether their statements are true...

 

You judged him for liking the dark parts of the story. You called him Toxic because the point he makes about MMMORPG will keep changing and sometimes not be the game for you anymore. That you can't expect people to care about long time players feelings when they are hating a change so badly, that they threaten to stop subbing just because they are not getting their way? The fact that they have been fans for so long, and the changes they are making is enough to make them hate the game now. Even though the drawing point is the "Story" Of this mmo, that they said is going to be better than ever? Hmmm

 

What I saw from his posts is this. The game is changing to what he likes, People want that element to change that he does not. That long time players should not have more of a say, and no one knows what is good or bad for the game. He does not care if you dislike the changes as what elements you want change will effect what he wants.

 

He comes off as jerk about it. That does not mean his points are not valid. Some of you will have to face the truth. You can't make both sides happy.

[Shikyo]

imo - if the cons are strong enough to stop players for grouping caused by aggro issues or prevent players getting achievements, datacrons, gathering mats or going to high lvl zones in low planets, the cons will overweight the pros.

remember bioware is infamous in not fixing bugs fast or effectively.

 

You have a point with the speed at which bioware fixes bugs! lol

 

Still, really have to get our hands on this 4.0 before we know just how awesome, or broken it really is ya know?

 

BTW, I explained threat in swtor to you in the post so you at least know how it works here because it isn't gear based. Even with how it works I pointed out you still may be on to something with threat.

 

Being both a preferred tank player and healer player and knowing they haven't really changed the passives and skills you get while leveling up in 4.0, I just have a hard time thinking it to be a problem because even if your threat multipliers aren't quite enough because you are the lowbie in the group, with how taunts work you will be adding that healers threat or DPS threat to you plus a blanket percentage over it each use and the cool downs are rather low on them.

 

As a tank you will still have to deal with DPS pulling agro because they are attacking the wrong target or going AOE crazy when they shouldn't be. Even in current game, there is no saving grace from that. You also have the option of guarding that higher level player to reduce their threat gen in the group.

[DarkJediMage]

You have a point with the speed at which bioware fixes bugs! lol

 

Still, really have to get our hands on this 4.0 before we know just how awesome, or broken it really is ya know?

 

BTW, I explained threat in swtor to you in the post so you at least know how it works here because it isn't gear based. Even with how it works I pointed out you still may be on to something with threat.

 

Being both a preferred tank player and healer player and knowing they haven't really changed the passives and skills you get while leveling up in 4.0, I just have a hard time thinking it to be a problem because even if your threat multipliers aren't quite enough because you are the lowbie in the group, with how taunts work you will be adding that healers threat or DPS threat to you plus a blanket percentage over it each use and the cool downs are rather low on them.

 

As a tank you will still have to deal with DPS pulling agro because they are attacking the wrong target or going AOE crazy when they shouldn't be. Even in current game, there is no saving grace from that. You also have the option of guarding that higher level player to reduce their threat gen in the group.

 

you are right about wait and see what is awesome or broken. but i am preparing the worst. it helps me cope with disappoints or problems and carry on.

[sentientomega]

I would like to point out that there is a REASON BW:A left us with all our actives/passives/utilities, otherwise, we might as well all be just the acolytes, sergeants, two-bit pistol-jockeys, padawans and bloody no-hopers our chars all started out as. There would be NO motivation to level, and to take away LEARNED traits our characters have would render them utterly beyond meaningless.

 

While you are under Level Sync the following things are adjusted on your character:

 

Stats

Armor

Weapon Damage

 

This is quite reasonable, as we can still experience the game in a manner not dissimilar to the max level.

 

However, while under Level Sync we will not take away any abilities or passive effects that you have.

 

Take these away, and your character might as well not exist. "Hi, I'm a Darth, but while I can do much on Oricon, I can't do jack **** on Korriban. Who am I? Why am I here? Derp..."

 

 

Fortunately, BW:A knows our character's pasts matter, the journey they've undertaken, the skills they've gained; they're not going to obliterate our characters just to please a few lazy bastards who can't be bothered levelling up, it's SUPPOSED to be easier for our characters, you level up, and you can come back here and feel powerful as well. People will only tolerate being messed around so much, as forcing our higher characters to essentially replicate non-synced 20s would destroy the whole purpose of levelling, the whole motivation to level, and ACTUALLY kill the game. We are travelling back to another planet, we are NOT travelling back in time. Get that into your head, AntiochosTheos, before you propose any more schadenfreude-inducing game-breaking changes.

 

Again, get it into your heads; levelling would be beyond pointless if being synced to 20, having BEEN 20 and gained another 45 levels since, effectively destroyed that levelling experience (all actives/passives/utilities beyond level 20 LOST while on the planet, our Darth/Jedi Master is just another acolyte/padawan, well done geniuses:rolleyes:). I might as well not've bloody bothered, how any of you can entertain such a bone-headed notion as that, in an mmoRPG, is beyond me.

Edited October 10, 2015 by sentientomega

[Max_Killjoy]

The ignore list has grown long in the last few weeks... there are so many people who can't be bothered to form an argument that's not based on insulting, demeaning, and belittling those opposed to them, who don't care if what they say is true as long as it "scores points", and who gleefully and with no shame continuously misrepresent and distort the posts of those they're responding to...

 

And for some reason, several of them don't seem to understand what an ignore list is, and appear to continue responding to your posts no matter how long you go without seeing or responding to their flailings. When you can see what they're posting because someone has quoted them, they're still spewing a steady toxic stream of insults and invective, and think that this esewage forms a "winning argument".

Edited October 10, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Shikyo]

I would like to point out that there is a REASON BW:A left us with all our actives/passives/utilities, otherwise, we might as well all be just the acolytes, sergeants, two-bit pistol-jockeys, padawans and bloody no-hopers our chars all started out as. There would be NO motivation to level, and to take away LEARNED traits our characters have would render them utterly beyond meaningless.

 

 

 

This is quite reasonable, as we can still take damage etc.

 

 

 

Take these away, and your character might as well not exist. "Hi, I'm a Darth, but while I can do much on Oricon, I can't do jack **** on Korriban. Who am I? Why am I here? Derp..."

 

Exactly why I'm actually rather excited about it. It brings back a level of immersion into the world for me. God Mode breaks immersion which is why it is always a cheat code in games

 

My high level passives and abilities still make me incredibly strong but I can still be overwhelmed by enough enemies no matter what planet I'm on which keeps me sucked into the world.

 

From a RP stand point you can actually have duals in master/apprentice relationships, mercenary battles, where that higher level (master) will still have a advantage from all their added experience (level) but not be completely unbelievable. Current game you have to have /emote and roll battles because if there is ANY disparity greater than 10 levels you will literally not do ANYTHING in combat to the higher level. BORING! (for me at least).

 

You can take your guild to a planet like tatooine and have epic battles with opposing guilds and not be in that situation where, "I'm sorry but a lot of level 60s will be there and you wont be able to do anything to help." Community inclusion baby! I'm getting all excited here thinking of all the prospects! Haha

[Teladis]

The ignore list has grown long in the last few weeks... there are so many people who can't be bothered to form an argument that's not based on insulting, demeaning, and belittling those opposed to them, who don't care if what they say is true as long as it "scores points", and who gleefully and with no shame continuously misrepresent and distort the posts of those they're responding to...

 

And for some reason, several of them don't seem to understand what an ignore list is, and appear to continue responding to posts. When you can see what they're posting because someone has quoted them, they're still spewing a steady toxic stream of insults and invective, and think that this esewage forms a "winning argument".

 

Lmao, He can't debate with people so he ignores them. I can't wait for this guy to stop subbing. Fallen is looking better all the time.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Teladis

[Bakakiba]

The ignore list has grown long in the last few weeks... there are so many people who can't be bothered to form an argument that's not based on insulting, demeaning, and belittling those opposed to them, who don't care if what they say is true as long as it "scores points", and who gleefully and with no shame continuously misrepresent and distort the posts of those they're responding to...

 

And for some reason, several of them don't seem to understand what an ignore list is, and appear to continue responding to posts. When you can see what they're posting because someone has quoted them, they're still spewing a steady toxic stream of insults and invective, and think that this esewage forms a "winning argument".

 

An ignore list doesn't mean you can dictate to whom others respond. And it's funny how those who complain the loudest about insults are the ones who do the same.

[sentientomega]

Exactly why I'm actually rather excited about it. It brings back a level of immersion into the world for me. God Mode breaks immersion which is why it is always a cheat code in games

 

My high level passives and abilities still make me incredibly strong but I can still be overwhelmed by enough enemies no matter what planet I'm on which keeps me sucked into the world.

 

From a RP stand point you can actually have duals in master/apprentice relationships, mercenary battles, where that higher level (master) will still have a advantage from all their added experience (level) but not be completely unbelievable. Current game you have to have /emote and roll battles because if there is ANY disparity greater than 10 levels you will literally not do ANYTHING in combat to the higher level. BORING! (for me at least).

 

You can take your guild to a planet like tatooine and have epic battles with opposing guilds and not be in that situation where, "I'm sorry but a lot of level 60s will be there and you wont be able to do anything to help." Community inclusion baby! I'm getting all excited here thinking of all the prospects! Haha

 

It feels more realistic from an IC RP standpoint, yes.

 

If a 65 Darth had the SAME abilities/passives/utilities as a mere apprentice at level 20, that would make ZERO sense, wouldn't it? Honestly, that guy should quit complaining, and get levelling.

 

Invulnerability can be incredibly boring, and that's why I like being able to actually fight and gain XP on lower worlds, EVERY world becomes a viable source of entertainment for us.

 

If Darth Vader went back to Tatooine, it would make ZERO sense for this to happen: Arrives on Tatooine, and finds himself as impotent as the 9 yo boy Qui-gon found, aww, I guess he went down to level 20 because some jealous player wanted everyone to be on a level playing field.

 

Lmao, He can't debate with people so he ignores them. I can't wait for this guy to stop subbing. Fallen is looking better all the time.

 

It seems as though the worse the deal is for him, the better it is for us.

Edited October 10, 2015 by sentientomega

[Max_Killjoy]

That's funny... one refuses to engage in further "discussion" with someone else who is inflammatory and rude, constantly distorts the positions of those who don't agree with them, gleefully engages in intellectual dishonesty for the lulz, repeats the same lies and distortions endlessly even after they've had concrete evidence shoved under their nose, and is clearly just looking to either browbeat others into silence, or bring much heat and no light to the exchange...

 

...and the person put on ignore "wins" because the person who put them on ignore "can't debate them".

 

Or better yet, you get the "I know you are but what am I?" response repeatedly, maybe even from someone who really believes that calling someone out for being a rude liar makes you just as "guilty" as the actual rude liar.

 

 

Oh, internet, don't ever change. You've been like this since before most of these children were born.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Bakakiba]

That's funny... one refuses to engage in further "discussion" with someone else who is inflammatory and rude, constantly distorts the positions of those who don't agree with them, gleefully engages in intellectual dishonesty for the lulz, repeats the same lies and distortions endlessly even after they've had concrete evidence shoved under their nose, and is clearly just looking to either browbeat others into silence, or bring much heat and no light to the exchange...

 

...and the person put on ignore "wins" because the person who put them on ignore "can't debate them".

 

 

Oh, internet, don't ever change. You've been like this since before most of these children were born.

 

Oh, the irony of it all.

[Princess_Chibi]

Coming from a pvp server I like the more level playing field it will create but still giving advantage to the higher player.

 

Current game: In this scenario you are a level 25 player with 3 other level 25 friends leveling on tattooine. Level 65 player comes through for whatever reason. Because of the level difference you literally stand no chance to fight them. You cannot hit them. Level 65 sees you and godmodes you. Or you hide, try and call level 65s to help which on a pvp server doesn't happen. You simply have to either log or wait for them to leave.

 

New system: Same scenario. Now that level 65 has to really think about whether he/she wishes to engage you because now you and your group can actually hit him. May he still win? Sure he is a level 65 after all but against 4 of you with level sync that seems like a hell of a fight. Also if the 4 of you aren't enough, you are on a planet with many others leveling and have a nice pool of people to call from to push that level 65 back. Remember, current game this isn't possible because beyond 10 levels there could be 100 of you lower levels and that 65 won't take a scratch.

 

If you play the above scenario but with a level 25 vs a level 65 with no help nothing changes really. Level 65 will still demolish the level 25 player due to skill disparity from level. If not, then that level 65 is pretty terrible. Remember, low levels aren't being bolstered at all, higher levels are being brought down via stats only.

 

High level characters on low level planets become like live event world bosses on pvp servers! That is exciting to me from both sides, the low leveling grouping up or the high level going against a group.

 

To dumb down the provided scenario a bit, four republic scouts (level 25) are running across Hoth, decide to check out a base and run into Darth Vader (level 65)... So instead of turning around and running like hell, under level sync, Vader is brought down to a Gold Level 25, and the four silver Level 25 scouts decide it's a smart idea to go head to head with a Sith Lord.

 

This is the difference that "level 'makes in an RPG game. It recasts an epic, universe-ruling toon into the role of a peon, so that (pardon the comparison) other peons can compete against them. It smooths the slope of difficulty in favor of those at the lower end of the scale with ZERO benefit to those at the higher end of the scale (yes, I did just flip the greater risk/greater reward argument on its back)..

 

How can that possibly be a good thing for the game? Also of interesting note is Teladis' statement that he's only been back to the game for a month. So he's unfamiliar with game state but is zealously (almost to the point of religion) arguing for what many consider a fundamental change in the game's functionality. Credibility is dropping rapidly there.

 

Does not really matter to me. I want players to play by the same rules of the game. I want people who "raid" and go back to older planets and be on the same level that don't. I don't care if that is selfish, and I don't care if it is stream line. If I form a group, I like the thought of saying. Hey look, I don't care about gear or what not.

 

The future is bright for how I want this game to be. Heavily focus on story, and less focus on raiders and such. Overall Fallen is starting to shape up to be good.

 

Doesn't want gear to be a factor, and expects level-sync will dumb down base toon stats. So he's looking for total homogenization of the game. Yeah, I called this one clear as day...

 

Alsarran, Shikyo... This is what I warned of. This is the quintessential pro-mandatory player in all its glory.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Princess_Chibi

[CDRWirbelwind]

There are no player "peons" in SWTOR, every player is a hero (in the making or not) so 4 players beating one is not surprising. That's what happens in dungeons and raids, after all, characters uniting to beat someone or something vastly superior to each individual.

[DarkJediMage]

There are no player "peons" in SWTOR, every player is a hero (in the making or not) so 4 players beating one is not surprising. That's what happens in dungeons and raids, after all, characters uniting to beat someone or something vastly superior to each individual.

 

reality check - you better hope that characters are requiredly geared according the dungeon/raid description and very competent in their class skills or get wiped.

[CDRWirbelwind]

It has nothing to do with the fact that, in a dungeon, characters unite to beat something they could not hope to beat alone. I'm not talking about chances of success, so you can keep your reality check to yourself, thanks.

 

Edit : Hmm, maybe this sounds rude, it wasn't my intent. But again, I'm simply talking about the roleplaying aspect of things, not the gameplay side of things.

Edited October 10, 2015 by CDRWirbelwind

[DizzD]

Ok, so I posted that I don't like level sync... however, I am trying to see the upside, and I did just think of one situation where it could be a "good thing".

 

Imagine you're leveling, you're on Tattonine, and you're enjoying the place, you want to do the full planet story, the side missions, everything. Normally you end up outleveling the place, getting just 6 XP per mission after awhile making it kinda depressing to carry on, knowing that you'll have to do the same stuff on the next planet.

 

But instead, with level sync, you'll never quite outlevel Tattonine, instead you'll keep getting XP. So lets say you love Tat but hate Alderann, you can do everything on Tat, level up a bit, then go do just the class missions and blast out Alderann and move on asap since you arrived at Alderann a bit overleveled for it.

 

This does open up options to "level your way", doing extras one place, just the class missions somewhere else, always earning something from it rather than almost nothing.

 

Just trying to see the positive here.

 

...and then with all that extra XP accumulating, you hit max level long before finishing all the storyline. Sorry, not trying to be mean, but your example is invalid.

[DarkJediMage]

It has nothing to do with the fact that, in a dungeon, characters unite to beat something they could not hope to beat alone. I'm not talking about chances of success, so you can keep your reality check to yourself, thanks.

 

keep dreaming...