Level synch = death of SWTOR

[Phylok]

If you are going to force level sync for every planet, flashpoint and operation. Why bother having levels at all? Seems like something like levels wouldn't be needed if everyone is going to be on the same tier for combat depending on the planet.

[Tsillah]

"Fixed that for you" ranks right down there with "I know you are but what am I?" and "well, you're a stupid-head".

 

 

Let's be honest...this line about how "BW doesn't know what's good for the game" is a record that's been broken many times over.

[LordTynell]

Let's be honest...this line about how "BW doesn't know what's good for the game" is a record that's been broken many times over.

 

If you're going to use a colloquialism, use it correctly, please.

 

In the end, new players will ding 19 on DK and see it reverted to 18 and told that's what best for them. I don't know about you guys, but I generally don't look for people to force me to do what they want in my hobby.

 

Only thing to do is vote with your wallet. It worked in other MMOs and they reverted changes, it can work here. EA only cares about the bottom line (because Stone Cold said so).

[Tsillah]

If you are going to force level sync for every planet, flashpoint and operation. Why bother having levels at all? Seems like something like levels wouldn't be needed if everyone is going to be on the same tier for combat depending on the planet.

 

It's still a content gate for higher level content, but in essence it doesn't matter whether we have 1, 10 or 100 levels. It's all fake progression but that progression is what makes games fun for some people and not so much for others...that goes for everything.

 

Listen, any game and any change in a game will have people that are happy with it and those that are not. However, anyone who claims that their view is best and therefore it's a majority view is not making sense.

 

BW have metrics where they see people's behaviour and I'm sure they look at how other games do things that might stagnate here. So this is a decision that comes from there. Although I never asked for this level-syncing I can see that there are advantages to it for the overall game. At the same time I can see that some people aren't happy with it.

 

The reasons they're not happy with it don't resonate with me though and as much as people feel that BW is forcing something on them, these same people want to force their view on the rest of the community. So forgive me if I'm not convinced.

 

Again, I didn't ask for it and I would've been fine if they hadn't introduced it but as I said, I do see certain advantages to it, so for me it will work.

 

What I haven't seen yet though are any good ideas how to do it differently that wouldn't mess up the new set up or the fun of other players who are looking forward to this. I could be on board for a hybrid situation, but yeh, haven't seen an actual viable idea yet.

[Tsillah]

If you're going to use a colloquialism, use it correctly, please.

Oh, do you wanna force some rules on me now? Sufficeth to say that I used it incorrectly on purpose.

 

In the end, new players will ding 19 on DK and see it reverted to 18 and told that's what best for them. I don't know about you guys, but I generally don't look for people to force me to do what they want in my hobby.

 

The game is built by them and how they build it is what you're forced to follow. There is no real freedom in life or in this game. Your unwillingness to adapt is the only thing limiting your perception of freedom really.

 

Only thing to do is vote with your wallet. It worked in other MMOs and they reverted changes, it can work here. EA only cares about the bottom line (because Stone Cold said so).

 

Sure. It's possible. However, my feeling is, and yes it's just my feeling, that you are grossly overestimating the amount of actual players will have issues with this.

 

I do remember a few more issues on this board that came by....and went away again.

[Max_Killjoy]

Another example of what's going to get messed the hell up.

 

What's the "max level" on Oricon? I bet it's lower than 60.

 

Oricon dailies / weekly will actually be more of a slog on a level 65 character in 4.0, than it is on a level 60 character now.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[smurftube]

Ok. So let's take a step back here. Let me take a step back.

 

Right from the start, let me just say that I like level sync. I think it is a great change that will really liven things up on planets. But on further reflection, I'm beginning to realize the even thought that is the case, it really isn't going to do much after the nuance of this change wears off.

 

Why? People don't go and hang out on lower level planets. They don't frequent those worlds because there is no need to do so. Sure, you can go as an over leveled toon every once in a while to kill a WB or to help a guildie, but generally there is nothing that keeps you going back routinely.

 

That doesn't change my position on level sync, but it certainly puts it into perspective. Those of you that are outraged and announcing the end of SWTOR don't spend any significant time on lowbie planets either. I know this because there is nothing to do there. This game is not a sandbox that requires you to go those areas. This game does not have open world housing where you go to these planets everyday to get to your home. The idea that you are drawing the line in the sand over this when the game suffers from much more serious problems is laughable. And if that is your tactic to force a change, forget it. You are in the minority that think this change will kill the game. You will sadly be on the outside looking in over something that is insignificant if you follow through with your threats.

 

Now, it may be that this level sync is a result of something else. It may be that these planets are now going to be relevant again because as part of KoTFE we will have to return to these places and run a series quests to advance the story. If so, level sync is important. But as it stands, we have no information to indicate that there is any reason to level sync the planets other than to put a coat of new paint on old content.

 

So, my stance remains the same. I will, however, concede the following. Because in the grand scheme of things this level sync is not very important, and because most don't linger on lowbie planets just because they are there, the ability to opt out is fine. I still believe that the best thing to do, BW, is to stay the course and just do it. But if you decide to make it optional, I will just shrug and move one because it is of little consequence from a broader perspective.

 

IF however the planets become relevant again to the larger story being told. And if suddenly we are back in those worlds for extended periods of time and this is the method you are using to make them challenging, then I'm back to insisting that level sync be mandatory. I have a sneaky suspicion that that is why level sync is actually a big part of KoTFE. I have nothing to base that on other than the timing of the introduction of this mechanic.

 

BW, if that is the case, then carry on. Let's do this. If it is just a QoL change, then seriously, it isn't important. Do what you will. Whatever the case, don't let the alarmist scare you into doing something rash because level sync will not be the end of the game. It is hardly even relevant at this point.

 

Not yet. One thing that syncing gives a lot of potential for are open world events, and not just events for max level players, but for everyone. This may be something else the devs want to "borrow" from Guild Wars 2. I think that the best part of the level syncing system isn't what we're getting right now, but the potential of what it might let the game designers develop in the future.

 

Nice post.

Edited October 2, 2015 by smurftube

[Transairion]

What I haven't seen yet though are any good ideas how to do it differently that wouldn't mess up the new set up or the fun of other players who are looking forward to this. I could be on board for a hybrid situation, but yeh, haven't seen an actual viable idea yet.

 

A lot of Heroics are instanced, so for the most part they aren't an issue. Open-to-air Heroic mobs usually respawn really fast as well.

 

World Bosses can be fixed just by altering the free-spawning ones to have a spawn item that spawn to the same level as the highest group member, ala Bounties and so on. So instead of some random 60 soloing, if he tries to spawn it it'll spawn 60 and he needs an Ops. A level 20 hits spawn item, it's 20 he needs an Ops.

 

Operations and Flashpoints are already instanced, I'm not sure what else there is apart from all those that could be exploited by higher-ups.

 

*PvP flagging could auto-down bolster as well.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Transairion

[Quraswren]

Let's be honest...this line about how "BW doesn't know what's good for the game" is a record that's been broken many times over.

 

I would have agreed with you execpt I played at launch and seen how much they relied on story and how that nearly killed the game. Forcing F2P on SWTOR faster then all but one other game that I know of.

 

I would have thought BW had their head together after the change but then we have had things like game engine trouble, operation problems that didn't get fixed for months on end. Going forward we have no new end game group content or PVP and those are huge areas of play for MMOS. Relying again on story to carry the game which we are know doesn't work from launch and we are getting less story this time than we did at launch.

 

I'm not sure BW does know whats best no more than guessing.

 

forced down leveling is a design choice that makes gamers go W.TH? How is this a forced option and not designed as optional giving gamers the best of both worlds in game play areas on content that is 4 years old.

 

So the opposite: BW knowing, "what is best for the game" is not more solid ground than any poster on these forums. There guesses are no better than yours or mine and knowing that, what would have been best is to design down leveling that would fit both sides of the fence and make this optional, not forced.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Quraswren

[Tsillah]

I would have agreed with you execpt I played at launch and seen how much they relied on story and how that nearly killed the game. Forcing F2P on SWTOR faster then all but one other game that I know of.

 

I would have thought BW had their head together after the change but then we have had things like game engine trouble, operation problems that didn't get fixed for months on end.

 

forced down leveling is a design choice that makes gamers go ***? How is this a forced option and not designed as optional giving gamers the best of both worlds in game play areas on content that is 4 years old.

 

So the opposite: BW knowing, "what is best for the game" is not more solid ground than any poster on these forums. There guesses are no better than yours or mine and knowing that, what would have been best is to design down leveling that would fit both sides of the fence and make this optional, not forced.

 

I've been here since the original beta as well and they have made a lot of mistakes, especially at the start. I think that's when the records started getting broken. People just use the same non-arguments over and over again to give their wild emotions shape, without very much rational thought behind it, if any at all.

[Max_Killjoy]

People just use the same non-arguments over and over again to give their wild emotions shape, without very much rational thought behind it, if any at all.

 

Sounds like you're describing a good chunk of the anti-optional posts...

[Quraswren]

I've been here since the original beta as well and they have made a lot of mistakes, especially at the start. I think that's when the records started getting broken. People just use the same non-arguments over and over again to give their wild emotions shape, without very much rational thought behind it, if any at all.

 

When the same arguments/problems still apply today as it did nearly 4 years ago when talking about what is best and what isn't solid. There is nothing broken about it as it still rings true.

 

Non optional forced down leveling is one of those things that isn't "best" by any means. A good game play feature yes. Not so good as a forced feature.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Quraswren

[Kiesu]

Another example of what's going to get messed the hell up.

 

What's the "max level" on Oricon? I bet it's lower than 60.

 

Oricon dailies / weekly will actually be more of a slog on a level 65 character in 4.0, than it is on a level 60 character now.

 

Yea, remember when you had to do dailies at their own level? When Oricon came out at 55 cap? Yea that thing, it already existed.

Really, I dont do dailies either because I find the boring and repetitive as hell. Thats why i dont do them in the first place.... If doing them on your own level is that terrible do something else maybe, solved my problem quite easy, and the money still comes in \o/

What were you doing at lv 50 cap when the only dailies were you own level?

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

What were you doing at lv 50 cap when the only dailies were you own level?

 

I didn't do them till I over geared them heavily, making sure they were easy or skipped them entirely till I also over-leveled them and over geared them.

 

I didn't need to be forced to down scale my level to enjoy completing them or the credits.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Quraswren

[Dalagante]

I love my GODMOD when Im visiting low level planets. Im plaing this game to have fun. I don't play GW2 because they have this "stupid" level sync system that downgrade you.

 

This change should be done as "Mentoring" system or something similar.

It dosen't matter what reasons BW have behaind this system. The only thing that matters is do you have fun plaing or not.

 

My 3 cents.

Have a nice day

 

If you haven't played the system you don't know if it is fun or not? You just assume it is not because you don't like the concept. May be if you approach it with an open mind you might enjoy it. Instead making assumption about it based on past experience in other games and other companies.

[Quraswren]

If you haven't played the system you don't know if it is fun or not? You just assume it is not because you don't like the concept. May be if you approach it with an open mind you might enjoy it. Instead making assumption about it based on past experience in other games and other companies.

 

Ugh no. If you played MMOs at all or games that have a leveling system, you don't, in any way need to play SWTOR or wait and see to grasp whats going on. You can look at the released information and get a very solid idea on whats going on.

 

There is no need to wait and see. We know the mobs are nearly just as easy to kill then as they are now. You went from one shotting to 3 shotting. Big "F"ing deal.

 

We went from running past everything to a down scaling so you have a high chance at pulling useless mobs.

 

We went from soloing world bosses to needing a group.

We went from soloing heroics rather quickly for credits or gear customization to either needing a group or having extra time added to those solo kills (if its possible)

 

There really is no need to wait and see on this. It's rather easy to tell whats going on and it needs to be optional. Not forced.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Quraswren

[Tsillah]

When the same arguments/problems still apply today as it did nearly 4 years ago when talking about what is best and what isn't solid. There is nothing broken about it as it still rings true.

 

Non optional forced down leveling is one of those things that isn't "best" by any means. A good game play feature yes. Not so good as a forced feature.

 

That's your opinion. I don't say that the same problems still apply, in fact I don't believe that.

 

If you do however, I find it interesting that you have the stomach for 4 years of the same issues. I would've left and stayed away.

 

And there's so much in games that is forced that it's just silly to think this is something unusual. No matter what they would've done with this patch someone would complain. And that's ok, but you have to see that in perspective as well.

[Tsillah]

Sounds like you're describing a good chunk of the anti-optional posts...

 

The same problem exists on both sides of the fence. No doubt about it.

[Kiesu]

I didn't do them till I over geared them heavily, making sure they were easy or skipped them entirely till I also over-leveled them and over geared them.

 

I didn't need to be forced to down scale my level to enjoy completing them or the credits.

 

You didnt over-lvl dailys on 50.. so gear was the only factor. And you can still overgear the content quite easily, as demonstrated in the stream. If downscaling with better gear and skill isnt for you then just do the dailys of your own lvl (new 65 dailys) with your overgeared toon, sync dont affect content of your own level. Solved.

[Quraswren]

That's your opinion. I don't say that the same problems still apply, in fact I don't believe that.

 

Opinion or not, what I listed was fact. The only opinion part is who knows best or not. I'm not sold BW is the one to know whats best given their past actions.

 

If you do however, I find it interesting that you have the stomach for 4 years of the same issues. I would've left and stayed away.

 

Because the whole game isn't flawed. Just portions. Just like down scalingof everyone level simply because they log in. Another portion of SWTOR that is flawed where if it was opional, both sides of this would have been rather pleased.

 

And there's so much in games that is forced that it's just silly to think this is something unusual. No matter what they would've done with this patch someone would complain. And that's ok, but you have to see that in perspective as well.

 

Really whats forced on every single player in the game? I don't have to craft. I don't have to PVP, I don't have to run ops or FPS. I don't even have to pick as AC if I don't want to.

 

So what is forced as a game play feature that affects everyone in the game like this?

[Dalagante]

I didn't do them till I over geared them heavily, making sure they were easy or skipped them entirely till I also over-leveled them and over geared them.

 

I didn't need to be forced to down scale my level to enjoy completing them or the credits.

 

Well you still will be over geared etc. You just won't be over leveled. I still think until we try the system we don't know how competitive it will actually be. Honestly watching it on the stream it looked like fights will still be easy. If anything it seems to be set up for people who don't like a challenge. You can level on stuff that you am over geared for and have an easy time completing while getting experience as if it was doing content at current level.

 

So basically you can go do level 18 content where you are overpowered for and get experience as your current level. This would allow you actually level pretty easy without a challenge. I guess if you decided to look at it as oh it is all bad then it's all bad but if you may be look at all the possibilities then may be it isn't all bad.

 

I also want to point out this is why game companies don't give information. You say level sync. They instantly assume the worse even though they have never tried it. None of us can say if it is good or bad until we try it. All we can do is make assumption based on what we believe.

[Faelandaea]

The same problem exists on both sides of the fence. No doubt about it.

 

Yeah. They keep trying to re-word it 50 different ways but it still says the exact same thing: "I am upset because I can no longer troll lowbies as easily. I';ll still be able to but I am upset that I can't do it in a way where they have no chance to do anything about it or have a fair shake at a mob or a gathering node."

 

I've settled on this. They keep this system, that issue will be deterred - NOT solved, but deterred somewhat. If they give in to the basement dwelling trolls and remove the system - meh we played this long without it. All my characters are now 60+, but I'll certainly feel for the lowbies when the 60's start troll-clearing leveling areas.

 

Well you still will be over geared etc. You just won't be over leveled. I still think until we try the system we don't know how competitive it will actually be. Honestly watching it on the stream it looked like fights will still be easy. If anything it seems to be set up for people who don't like a challenge. You can level on stuff that you am over geared for and have an easy time completing while getting experience as if it was doing content at current level.

 

So basically you can go do level 18 content where you are overpowered for and get experience as your current level. This would allow you actually level pretty easy without a challenge. I guess if you decided to look at it as oh it is all bad then it's all bad but if you may be look at all the possibilities then may be it isn't all bad.

 

I also want to point out this is why game companies don't give information. You say level sync. They instantly assume the worse even though they have never tried it. None of us can say if it is good or bad until we try it. All we can do is make assumption based on what we believe.

 

Excellent points. I agree. Just let the server go live and see how everything pans out.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Faelandaea
Adding a quote and reply.

[Quraswren]

You didnt over-lvl dailys on 50.. so gear was the only factor.

 

I know, thats what I said and added a bit more information for when I eventually did over level them.

 

And you can still overgear the content quite easily, as demonstrated in the stream.

 

So in other words the down scaling is an change thats not really needed since we are no better off than where we were? I knew that already.

 

If downscaling with better gear and skill isnt for you then just do the dailys of your own lvl (new 65 dailys) with your overgeared toon, sync dont affect content of your own level. Solved.

 

Or just put it in as optional. Problem solved.

 

SNIP...I also want to point out this is why game companies don't give information. You say level sync. They instantly assume the worse even though they have never tried it. None of us can say if it is good or bad until we try it. All we can do is make assumption based on what we believe.

 

I posted above on what in this case, of how you couldn't be more wrong than you are in any of that post ^....

Edited October 2, 2015 by Quraswren

[Tsillah]

Opinion or not, what I listed was fact. The only opinion part is who knows best or not. I'm not sold BW is the one to know whats best given their past actions.

 

 

The only reason you're not sold is because you don't like it personally. BW have to take the whole player base into account full well knowing that some will always hate whatever they do.

 

Because the whole game isn't flawed. Just portions. Just like down scalingof everyone level simply because they log in. Another portion of SWTOR that is flawed where if it was opional, both sides of this would have been rather pleased.

 

I am not talking about the game being flawed. I am talking about people complaining about apparently the same stuff for 4 years...how many years have to pass before you realise it's a waste of time or energy. Oh though on the up side clipping on mounts is being fixed.

 

Really whats forced on every single player in the game? I don't have to craft. I don't have to PVP, I don't have to run ops or FPS. I don't even have to pick as AC if I don't want to.

 

So what is forced as a game play feature that affects everyone in the game like this?

 

You also don't have to play. But if you want something, you have to do something for it. You want to go to Alderaan, you need to travel there. You want to sell something on the GTN, you have to pay a fee. You want to be level 60? Well you will have level through the other levels first..or soon buy it with real money. But you only get the choice that are given to you by BW, no matter what you do. Died? You have to repair or your armour starts working. Oh you do have to wear armour or you can't progress anymore. etc...

 

You wanna create a character? You have to pick a class. Picke a class? You only get to play that class with the assigned weapons.Lots of choice...but you don't get the human hairstyles on a cyborg.... literally the game is full of limitations. etc again...

Edited October 2, 2015 by Tsillah

[Kiesu]

I know, thats what I said and added a bit more information for when I eventually did over level them.

Then whats the problem. Just overgear current level dailys It'll be just as much content as you had on 50cap, with same playstyle without sync!

 

 

So in other words the down scaling is an change thats not really needed since we are no better off than where we were? I knew that already.

You are putting words in my mouth. Scaling is not "needed", the game works fine without it, but it is welcome change, as i can now use my main to do old content without facerolling it. I like the idea of bossmobs actually now being worth caution no matter what level you are.

 

And yes, preach your optional, got nothing against that. Just offering the good sides of this deal, and/or tips on how dislikers can to overcome them if not made optional.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Kiesu