Level synch = death of SWTOR

[iankalo]

What about the planetary achievements - kill 500 of these , kill 1000 of that (even 2500 and 5000 sometimes) ? You cant achieve that for years with this level sync thingy. Edited October 1, 2015 by iankalo

[Ouardajason]

or just pretend to be a made up god by society organized religion and be all mighty smite the lowbe mobs... "not talking about ganking players... but it can happen."

 

or will the level sync only take place when I group with other players?

Edited October 1, 2015 by Ouardajason

[NSStember]

And its forced. Not optional.

Worst. Decision. Ever.

 

You lost entrance to my wallet Bioware and I hope this goes for many others. Really don't get why its not optional and why they thought it was a good idea to force this on everyone. Yes it's nice for those that want it, BUT I DON'T WANT IT!

 

Where was this confirmed? I only see dev posts that flashpoints are being level synched, not planets.

[Rhyltran]

Where was this confirmed? I only see dev posts that flashpoints are being level synched, not planets.

 

Yesterday's live stream. You can check dulfy too for the notes.

[Thoronmir]

If you stop and think about it for a moment.

 

Of all of the changes incoming with 4.0, this is possibly the one most contentious issue to split an already fractured game community. It's probably why current subscribers are receiving the game for "free", because BioWare are clinging on to some hope that once people try level sync, that they will literally appreciate being level synced and continue subscribing to the game.

 

You already know my views on this going into 4.0, along with the other issues the game has. My last subscription is in October, and after that I'm done until I see some effort on BioWare's end to communicate / listen / interact / resolve issues players have with their game.

 

Level sync is only one factor in the reason I'm not going to continue paying for a product I'll not be having "fun" with, however it's a pretty large factor overall. I'm not interested in the reasoning BioWare wish to give for having it in the game, be it for making gaining "influence" or "reputation" on certain things tied into the 4.0 story or whatever else they wish to come up with.

 

At least in this one instance, you'll be able to verify that someone has indeed unsubscribed TUXs.

 

And for everyone who does want level sync, absolutely fine, I hope it makes your own play more "fun". It's the reason we play games. I just hope it doesn't fracture the community so badly it never really recovers (considering the lack of any other real content in 4.0).

I'm leaning heavily towards Transcendent's position. Although, I may be a little more optimistic about some of the other changes on the horizon. The new "Mastery" stat, Companion revisions, potential crafting changes ... it all sounded okay (not great, but okay) to me. I'm just having trouble seeing how this scaling mechanism makes my game more fun for me.

 

I can think of six reasons to return to an old planet once I hit the level cap:

 

1. To complete uncompleted planetary and side missions. I do those while I level anyway, even with 12x XP.

 

2. To run Heroics. If all the Heroics are, in fact, converted to Heroic-2s that I can easily solo even while downscaled, fine. Otherwise, I have no current interest joining a group for any Heroic ... I shall have no such interest once 4.0 releases. Even if I can get level 65 rewards for running Coruscant H-4s, it's not worth it to me.

 

3. To help a lower level friend. Not that many of my friends ask for help too often, but every once in a while, they need a hand taking down someone mean and scrappy. Sometimes, they just need a healer to keep them upright. I can do that better as a 65 Sage than any lesser version of my character. If the xp is a concern, we just don't group and communicate via our custom chat channel. If I plan to make our alliance a long-term arrangement, my solution is to make a new alt (or use an existing low-level alt) to run with my friend(s).

 

4. Roleplaying. I fear that anyone who asserts that downscaling is a boon to RPing simply hasn't ever RPed. We choose locations out in the boonies because (a) it's not Fleet and (b) for the ambiance. It's hard to have a confab of Jedi Masters in the wilds of Tython while fighting off Flesh Raiders.

 

5. Farming Materials. I consider this issue mostly irrelevant to the discussion. I have no greater difficulty avoiding mobs while farming at-planet-level than I do once I've out-leveled a planet.

 

6. To show off. I don't do this. In fact, I rarely ever revisit starter worlds unless my Class mission sends me there. But, sure, let's assume some players like use their 60s to eradicate all the K'lor'slugs on Korriban ... just because they can. First, I believe such slugs (the players, not the K'lors) are very few and far between. Second, I believe it was Montesquieu who said, "Slug's gonna do what a slug's gotta do." They'll just find some other way to annoy other players.

 

I cannot think of one aspect of the game I play that would be improved with scaling. Others may disagree. But, at least this time around, I just don't care whether scaling makes the game better for other players. I'm firmly rooted in selfishness on this issue. If a change impairs my enjoyment of the game, it matters not to me whether every other player favors the change.

 

So, I'll wait and see how downscaling affects how I like to play. While I'm not prone to vitriolic rants proclaiming my imminent unsubbing of SWTOR, if you notice I haven't posted after, say, Halloween, you'll know why. And no, none of you can have my stuff if I leave. I plan to have it all entombed with me so I can use it my SWTOR afterlife.

[ZavienUK]

Both sides make great points.

 

keeping high levels from harassing the low level players (which on my server is an issue, and it is a PvE server, but the harassment ensues in the form of high levels keeping entire areas cleared while they farm leaving nothing for low levels to kill and no crafting nodes to level gathering on) is going to be something I enjoy.

 

 

I'm not convinced this is much of a problem (i've never had a problem when levelling a character) but if it is, just have players with level sync turned off in a separate instance to at level or level synced characters. Fixed.

 

1. When you are sync'd, you are sync'd at the highest possible level of that planet's level range.
   
2. if you are a high level, regardless of gear, You will be so OP that you will completely walk all over even Heroics. Eric demonstrated this on the live stream. He was in average level 60 gear (he showed us the tool-tips) and he went to Dromund Kaas and was practically one-shotting silvers and golds in a heroic area.
   

 

So if thats the case what are we actually benefitting from this sytem? If it was optional they could actually tune the level synced version to be less overpowered. As it is they are trying to meet competing purposes and find an impossible balance.

 

Unless you are a systems engineer and see the glass as simple at 50% capacity and holding.

 

Completely unreleated to this thread, but I love that. I am so stealing this for the next time somebody asks if I'm a glass half full or a glass half empty kind of guy. Sods law says this conversation will now never come up for years.

 

One thing IS for sure, though. I am now VERY happy my main classes are stealth classes XD

 

Sucks to be the rest of us :/

[fragnor]

Okay so some people see no reason why we should be able to toggle this off. How about when you have to go back to a starting planet as apart of your class line say as a BH when you go to DK for Mandalore to clear out the cave do we really need to be agroing every mob in that heroic area just to get to the instace? Especially since it is a class story mission and you are supposed to be able to do those solo. Hmm... I think that a lot of you who are saying that you dont need to toggle it off will change your minds when this exact situation happens to you. But then again maybe not maybe you dont mind spending a long time fighting through every mob that agros on you from half a mile away and actually end up dying to mobs you should just be able to one shot or not have to deal with at all.

[NSStember]

Yesterday's live stream. You can check dulfy too for the notes.

 

Thanks

[branmakmuffin]

What about the planetary achievements - kill 500 of these , kill 1000 of that (even 2500 and 5000 sometimes) ? You cant achieve that for years with this level sync thingy.

So what?

[LegionAlpha]

Title says it all. And for those that can't put the pieces of the puzzle together, below is an explanation of how:

 

OWPvP is open world player vs player combat where players try to kill each other whether it be a high level ganking and camping a lowbie, or a group of slightly lower level toons camping a higher level. Or maybe it's just for the fun of it with big battles resulting from friends calling upon friends to help aid them as the opposing faction constantly kills them while questing or whatever...

 

THE FACADE:

"Level sync puts everyone on a same level so fights will be fair and therefore more fun." False: the concept of OWPvP to many participants of it is not to be on an equal level, though if the opponent is on equal standing it's ok, it's about creating a diverse pvp environment. Mind you, the pvp servers are dead anyways, so we would need a revival of these servers first off. But if that were to happen, then we now enter into this as mentioned. Though we will never see anything like the days of Ilum again and the glory of that due to engine inability, the point still is that the foundation of open world pvp is gone, which makes me wonder what bioware actually cares about in the pvp realm? No new warzones or any other related content, so it is something to ponder.

 

Part of the fun of open world pvp is the random and unpredictability of it. The environment, the opposing force, etc... Which will be controlled in a fashion that really is gross. Now what I'm not saying is "ganking ppl lower than me is all its about". No. The stats being fixed for level sync is the problem, however this is necessary for level sync to operate as it is designed to. Granted as I stated before, the level sync provides a very "balanced" combat system against players in open world, however, balance is not what open world pvp is about, or fairness. It's about the random unpredictability. That is what's foundational and being taken out of OWPvP with this level sync.

 

People on forums may say, "equal levels and stuff and stats is all fair and balanced and that's how pvp should be, let the skill show." However I would venture to bet 99% of those ppl will be the ones that wouldn't actually do the fair fight situations if they had that option versus being more powerful in stats (skill excluded). Because the illusion of gear and power gives ppl the confidence to jump somebody even though they might get killed, it's random and great.

 

To reiterate: this is not a thread about " we can't kill lowbie anymore" or "we don't wanna fight fair", it's about the elements of world pvp being driven away from the game. Another way in which bioware consistently shows their lack of care or concern for pvp at all in this game.

 

Edit: If pvp gear is not effective in level sync, my argument holds valid. If pvp gear is effective in level sync, then my argument is invalid. The expertise stat is in question.

Thanks.

Edited October 1, 2015 by LegionAlpha

[ZavienUK]

Nah, you're not losing anything.

 

Would you like to expand on that?

 

Your fundamentally misunderstanding the way debate works. You can't just make a statement without evidencing it and providing your point of view and it become magically true. How do you feel I'm not losing anything?

 

So it doesn't bother you, thats great. But I have lost a lot. It's frustrating to have to repeat myself because you can't be bothered to read the thread. I've lost the ability to solo old heroics. I've lost the ability to go back and go all god mode on lower level mobs. I've lost the ability to run through earlier planets easier without being harassed by lower level mobs. I've lost the ability to RP on a planet without being harassed by mobs. I've lost the ability to explore easily explore, etc etc etc. And I've lost level, stats and power on my character in a RPG. So fine none of this bothers you, but try and show some empathy and understand that people are different, and because your not bothered doesn't mean other people are not.

[Thoronmir]

Okay so some people see no reason why we should be able to toggle this off. How about when you have to go back to a starting planet as apart of your class line say as a BH when you go to DK for Mandalore to clear out the cave do we really need to be agroing every mob in that heroic area just to get to the instace? Especially since it is a class story mission and you are supposed to be able to do those solo. Hmm... I think that a lot of you who are saying that you dont need to toggle it off will change your minds when this exact situation happens to you. But then again maybe not maybe you dont mind spending a long time fighting through every mob that agros on you from half a mile away and actually end up dying to mobs you should just be able to one shot or not have to deal with at all.

If memory serves, That's the same Heroic-4 area on DK you have to pass through (at least twice, each way) to do the

 

Inquisitor Class Mission, to learn how to bind ghosts

. Yeah, that can get dicey even at max-DK-level. Plenty of choke points to circumvent.

[branmakmuffin]

Are posting in Klingon, because you make absolutely no sense.

[Kraytose]

It happens whether you are Solo or Grouped. No matter what. However, I still believe you'll be a high enough level to be able to destroy enemies, and especially will be able to ride past them.

 

This is just judging from what we've seen though.

[Quraswren]

This concept of level sync is just terrible.

 

Not entirely true.

 

It's a decent game feature.

 

Problem is it's not currently an optional game feature. I see it's merits but not as a forced feature.

 

It's like forceing everyone to PVP or run OPS. It's something you don't normally see. You also shouldn't see a forced down scaling either so it's kinda mind blowing thats the direction BW went when designing this. Yea, lets force all those max level toons that go anywhere in the universe to be down scaled to wherever their feet touch. It's a *** moment is game design for sure.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Quraswren

[Anaesha]

WHAT OPEN WORLD PVP!!?? I play on a PVE server and don't really care about PVP outside of warzones.

[Bakakiba]

4. Roleplaying. I fear that anyone who asserts that downscaling is a boon to RPing simply hasn't ever RPed. We choose locations out in the boonies because (a) it's not Fleet and (b) for the ambiance. It's hard to have a confab of Jedi Masters in the wilds of Tython while fighting off Flesh Raiders.

 

So your Jedi Master confab just lets all of those flesh raiders stand around you while you meet?

[mmmbuddah]

"Mandatory." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Correction, I used it once, which does not qualify as "keep using it". If you do PVP after 4.0, you -will- need the datacrons.

[Uruare]

Here it comes.... wait for it.... NGE!!!! Oh noes!

 

Hahahahaha

 

I don't think this is quite NGE-level 'lets rewrite the game and annoy everyone playing it that likes it as it is', but its certainly approaching the level of World of Warcraft's crossrealm.

 

Some clear benefits, yes. No denying that there are upsides to it (at least not by anybody that's not being a drippy little child about it), but...its not going to be all roses and singing DIsney songs in the meadows of perpetual spring either.

 

But, it doesn't matter then, does it. Our Glorious Leader Bioware Jong Un has decided what we shall enjoy and how we shall enjoy it. We can have any haircut we like, so long as its black and is the one they give us!

Edited October 1, 2015 by Uruare

[SirUrza]

I don't see how it kills OWPvP, gear still matter. You the down levelled 65 is still going to have 65 pvp armor and the people on the planet won't.

 

Have you ever attacked someone on Illum who isn't wearing PvP armor during the gree event? It's not pretty.

Edited October 1, 2015 by SirUrza

[PadsterPwns]

Not a weird question at all.

 

The change was warranted because many high-level toons were farming WBs and not allowing lowbies to gather and take down the bosses at level. WBs are a primer for group and end game Ops, not to mention a lot of fun at level.

 

Second, the changes and levely sync will re-invigorate old content at least for many will return to old planets to try things out and given that xp will once again be important, many will grind the old Heroics for rewards and xp. This is also warranted as another method of gaining xp. Dailies are a grind, adding planetary heroics to the mix will give players options on how to grind out xp.

 

Third, this was a necessary change because old planets and gameplay is stale. There is no reason to go back to planets once you level through. And so, when players get to endgame they simply run out of things to do. Re-invigorating these areas for players is necessary to keep the game fresh. It will go stale again as it were, but these are the type of things needed to keep players interested for a little while at least.

 

Net, net,

 

Old content will be relevant again even if it is just for a little while.

Vets can do content with lowbies at level. Great for grouping, guilds, and replay-ability.

Openworld will have a sense of danger as it should.

Certain achievements will require thought and skill.

WB mechanics and takedowns will mean something.

Openworld PvP will be less of a gank fest.

 

Thanks for the response. I can see some benefits from this, and while good, it just strikes me as Bioware wasting resources they could have used to create even more new content. Though I suppose this does mean that I now don't have to do SOR which is now insanely boring.

 

The decision strikes me as odd though considering how KotFE, and to an extent 4.0, seems to be trying to turn SWTOR into a single-player RPG, so the fact that they're trying this could just be seen as their way of trying to appease group players. The point about farming WB's seems a bit strange to me, how long is the respawn timer on WB's? I guess this system does bring a supply of credits with it which is good considering how the stat squish is going to create a lot more competition on the GTN, though that was an unneeded change imo but I won't get into that as that would go off-topic. So in summary, while I still feel it's an unneeded change I can see some benefits in it.

[ZavienUK]

Where was this confirmed? I only see dev posts that flashpoints are being level synched, not planets.

 

In the live stream, that spawned all these threads

Recap here

http://dulfy.net/2015/09/30/swtor-knights-of-fallen-empire-livestream-coverage/

[Infernixx]

Most PVE servers don't care about OW PVP.

 

That said, syncing will actually make OW PVP better.

 

Instead of a terri-bad 60/65 camping lowbies because he sucks at PVP and can't fight players his own level, that same terri-bad 60/65 will get his teeth kicked in by a level 15 who just knows how to PVP better than him.

 

I expect a flood of rage posts from those terri-bads to hit the forums after syncing goes live.

[branmakmuffin]

Won't this break Dreadseed areas and Bounty week ?

Do you really think they are going to leave the targets of a level 65s BBA quest at level 65 when the level 65 is synched to the planet's level? Seriously?

[Kelaso]

Not entirely true.

 

It's a decent game feature.

 

Problem is it's not currently an optional game feature. I see it's merits but not as a forced feature.

 

It's like forceing everyone to PVP or run OPS. It's something you don't normally see. You also shouldn't see a forced down scaling either so it's kinda mind blowing thats the direction BW went when designing this. Yea, lets force all those max level toons that go anywhere in the universe to be down scaled to where their feet touch. It's a *** moment is game design for sure.

 

Quoted for truth. Whoever thought this was even remotely a good idea really needs to share their stash of drugs. I would love some kind of mentoring system but forcing things on anyone never ends well.