Why scaling should not be optional

[Faelandaea]

As someone who is an expert on Flashpoints, my professional opinion is that down-scaling is necessary and should be put in without option.

[Pietrastor]

My biggest concern is how all these changes will impact finding groups. With all opses, flashpoints, WBs, heroics, quest chains etc becoming relevant and dropping relevant loot, people will get much more spread out around the game's world. This is obviously a good thing compared to sitting on fleet, but finding groups will be even harder. An update like this should come with enhanced communication tools, global chats of some sorts etc. Scaling means all group content in the game will suddenly come into end-game pool. Even large guilds won't solve grouping issues, there's only so much people online that can spread out and join up for all the various things different guildies will want to do.

[Jeweledleah]

You said relevant? I said challenging. You can be an indestructible over leveled force and it can still be relevant to you if you want to go and see the story or experience the content. Doesn't mean you have to be rewarded for doing it does it?

 

Why do you also need to muddy the waters by adding a "time" factor to it? It doesn't matter if it's new or old content - you pass a challenge you get rewarded for it.

Note that the concept of having the scaling in place also changes the rewards to be relevant to your current level. Or so goes the more or less confirmed rumours that push these topics through.

 

As for guilds ... so what? They did challenging content many others couldn't so yes they got rewarded for that.

 

How is anything you are saying a logical argument for "please let me have these free rewards because none of the trash/bosses can actually damage me now".

 

 

 

Huh? What does that have to do with level sync?

 

 

 

Easy - hard ... you're still getting it later than everyone else if you choose to do it 2 years later ... level sync doesn't change. You're really not seeming to make much sense to the context of the argument I am making especially when you start talking about giving the expansions to subs for free ... that has nothing to do with level sync.

 

Are you asking me why shouldn't people be able to cakewalk challenging content to basically get free rewards? Well because they are basically getting free rewards. If you didn't EARN it then what entitlement do you have to just be given it? Because someone else already has it? Boo hoo.

 

 

 

Petty reasoning is thinking you should be entitled to getting a reward that someone else has without putting in any effort solely because someone else already has it and you think it's unfair that they have it and you don't.

 

Nothing is of course stopping you getting the rewards by turning on level sync, if you actually just want to experience the content you turn off level sync and get no rewards.

 

 

 

What progress? The progress of you running a heroic on Korriban and ignoring all challenge and/or mechaincs if they apply entirely so you can get a reward you've done nothing to earn?

 

Or do you mean because you're the big bad sith now it should be easy? Well you see since those planets are effectively a moment in time you are travelling back to then likewise should your strength be more or less dialed back to that time if you want to look at it that way.

 

Either way - you want rewards you do a challenge and face it synced to that level. If you want to just experience it then feel free to cake walk it, no one is stopping you but I don't see where it was written you would have to be rewarded for it.

 

It's also worth noting again to anyone following that the rewards you get from level sync aren't the same that you would get now running content, they would be level appropriate.

What this means for decorations etc. *shrug* probably nothing, it's mostly the drops from the heroics and the planets themselves we are talking here.

 

Relevant= Challenging for the intents and purposes of this discussion.

 

what it has to do with hutt cartel etc - is that originaly you had to make an extra effort to get it - in form of extra pay. and you got to play it when it was new and when the level was max level.

 

if I complete the quest? i have NOT done nothing to earn the rewards for it. I have completed the quest/flashpoint/etc. outleveling it - does NOT change that. in fact... by leveling past it - I have conceivably spent MORE time to earn it than someone doing it at level. ergo? I HAVE earned it.

 

current system allows for flexibility. mandatory downscaling? does not. becasue that reward that used to require full coordinated group? with down-scaling STILL requires coordinated group. which is NOT possible for a lot of people who are playing this game. ergo - rendering the whole point of waiting to get something later? moot. you are essentially telling people that they should never get that reward. ever. essentially - its comparable to you saying that old expansions? should STILL cost their original cost.

 

but god forbid sometime a year or so after content released someone somewhere might have a chance to get a fluff item. nonono, how dare they!!. they must "earn it just like I did - walking uphill barefoot in a snow both ways!" you must feel special via "beating challenges" in a video game. >_> its kinda sad.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[branmakmuffin]

Hard to use the word "relevant" regarding playing a game, since the only that is relevant when playing a game is whether or not you are having fun. So "relevant content" is the same thing as "fun content."

[well]

Hard to use the word "relevant" regarding playing a game, since the only that is relevant when playing a game is whether or not you are having fun. So "relevant content" is the same thing as "fun content."

 

Nicely put. I can't speak for anyone else but I play games for fun.

[sentientomega]

Personally, I set great store by a wider range of options; every piece of content should be soloable, and every piece of that same content should be optionally group-friendly. I don't want to deny people what they take to be their group culture-worshipping birthright, even though these same solo-bashing upstarts could not live until I found myself having to group up the entire the time I was logged in, regardless of level, and my characters being defeated by overpowered Klor'slugs every picosecond.

 

Options for anything anything raise quality of life, mandatory anything is oppression, slavery, and tyranny. Advocating for forced grouping for everything just because you're miserable and can't wait to spread said misery to others in the group is just petty, vindictive, and incredibly sick and twisted.

 

We are trying to have fun, what business have you got trying to dampen our enjoyment? What gives you the divine right to tell solo players how they should play, and choosing to go it alone, they should forfeit their existence?

 

Forbid it, almighty BW:A! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me soloable options or give me death!

 

And group ones as well, even if 99.99% of all groups fail because the other groupies act as if they busted out of chokey.

 

And just in case I haven't made myself clear, I don't want to deny anyone anything they can experience ingame that doesn't serve to disrupt other people's enjoyment, which is more than can be said for some of the posters here. Yes, Saereth, I'm talking to you.

 

The day BW:A made this game more soloable, was a great, great day; and I hope they continue to keep that as an option for all future content...

Edited September 25, 2015 by sentientomega

[Jeweledleah]

Nicely put. I can't speak for anyone else but I play games for fun.

 

you could certainly interpret it that way.

 

another interpretation of relevant, at least when it comes to end game... is when content's max level is the same level as character max level (so at the moment, something like EC is old content, while ToS is relevant)

 

but even if we go with fun definition (which I'm very willing to accept) its fun for me to go back to content I over-leveled and blow through it solo, at my own pace, grabbing those rewards I may have missed.

 

it becomes less fun when I know that I only have limited time to do so before that option is taken away from me, and knowing that content that is still challenging to solo (like lvl 55 flashpoints or 8 man lvl 50 ops) is going to be impossible in a few weeks, so I I don't have much time left to have fun with it.

 

I'm NOT the only one, far from it who plays in such a manner. mandatory scaling removes this option, so while in theory it makes all content - relevant (aka same level as the characters, and in case of flashpoints - everything becomes max level) it also removes a lot of the fun from it for a lot of people.

 

and what bugs me is that people are not even asking to not scale content. we are asking for ability to CHOSE original vs scaled. people who like scaling will still be able to enjoy scaling. so they are essentially arguing against choice, options. and we are the selfish ones...

[sentientomega]

you could certainly interpret it that way.

 

another interpretation of relevant, at least when it comes to end game... is when content's max level is the same level as character max level (so at the moment, something like EC is old content, while ToS is relevant)

 

but even if we go with fun definition (which I'm very willing to accept) its fun for me to go back to content I over-leveled and blow through it solo, at my own pace, grabbing those rewards I may have missed.

 

it becomes less fun when I know that I only have limited time to do so before that option is taken away from me, and knowing that content that is still challenging to solo (like lvl 55 flashpoints or 8 man lvl 50 ops) is going to be impossible in a few weeks, so I I don't have much time left to have fun with it.

 

I'm NOT the only one, far from it who plays in such a manner. mandatory scaling removes this option, so while in theory it makes all content - relevant (aka same level as the characters, and in case of flashpoints - everything becomes max level) it also removes a lot of the fun from it for a lot of people.

 

and what bugs me is that people are not even asking to not scale content. we are asking for ability to CHOSE original vs scaled. people who like scaling will still be able to enjoy scaling. so they are essentially arguing against choice, options. and we are the selfish ones...

 

My sentiments entirely, it's so sad when some people not only cherish something they've gained, but become determined to ensure that everyone else should lose out. It's not as if we're advocating total annihilation of all grouping in the game, I'm quite happy for group players to play as they enjoy playing.

 

And incidentally, if BW:A accepted their draconian and downright oppressive definition of MMORPG, then not one bloody aspect of this game would be soloable. And, knowing my luck, every.single.group would be comprised of myself, and the 3+ most hellish of maximum security prison escapees. Take every bad group experience everyone has ever had, and that would define this game in a universal group-only setting if the solo-haters had their way.

[Upirlikhyi]

My sentiments entirely, it's so sad when some people not only cherish something they've gained, but become determined to ensure that everyone else should lose out. It's not as if we're advocating total annihilation of all grouping in the game, I'm quite happy for group players to play as they enjoy playing.

 

And incidentally, if BW:A accepted their draconian and downright oppressive definition of MMORPG, then not one bloody aspect of this game would be soloable. And, knowing my luck, every.single.group would be comprised of myself, and the 3+ most hellish of maximum security prison escapees. Take every bad group experience everyone has ever had, and that would define this game in a universal group-only setting if the solo-haters had their way.

 

nowhere has anyone said grouping all the time is the way to go....and yes people should play the way they want but those who choose to skip things until they are max level for the ease of doing it. Or because they don't like GF should not get their way.

 

I am a very anti-social person irl. I can't stand other people around me but in MMOs I understand groups are part of the game. And to get the best rewards I have to suck up not liking people and group.

[sentientomega]

nowhere has anyone said grouping all the time is the way to go....and yes people should play the way they want but those who choose to skip things until they are max level for the ease of doing it. Or because they don't like GF should not get their way.

 

I am a very anti-social person irl. I can't stand other people around me but in MMOs I understand groups are part of the game. And to get the best rewards I have to suck up not liking people and group.

 

Why should we have to suffer because YOU think group content should ONLY be done at level and grouped, why should you care why anyone solos group content? THAT is anti-social, not leaving well alone.

 

Plus, you make it sound like GF is not liked for no good reason, you go find "The weird people you meet in Group Finder" topic and you tell me forced grouping is an absolute unquestionable must and all heretics must burn.

 

BW:A knew that people would out-level heroics and FPs and be able to come back and solo them, they don't seem to mind that people solo them, nor have they minded for YEARS.

Edited September 25, 2015 by sentientomega

[Upirlikhyi]

Why should we have to suffer because YOU think group content should ONLY be done at level and grouped, why should you care why anyone solos group content? THAT is anti-social, not leaving well alone.

 

Plus, you make it sound like GF is not liked for no good reason, you go find "The weird people you meet in Group Finder" topic and you tell me forced grouping is an absolute unquestionable must and all heretics must burn.

 

BW:A knew that people would out-level heroics and FPs and be able to come back and solo them, they don't seem to mind that people solo them, nor have they minded for YEARS.

 

where have i said you have to do it at level and grouped?

 

but in all honesty i am done trying to explain things to you....i have explained it over and over again

 

so its this simple...the devs want the FPs to be scaled so you have 2 choices deal with it or quit

 

i care not either way. and i really could care less how you spend your time in the game but i refuse to bow to the masses and not be a voice of disention when i feel its needed.

[Jeweledleah]

nowhere has anyone said grouping all the time is the way to go....and yes people should play the way they want but those who choose to skip things until they are max level for the ease of doing it. Or because they don't like GF should not get their way.

 

I am a very anti-social person irl. I can't stand other people around me but in MMOs I understand groups are part of the game. And to get the best rewards I have to suck up not liking people and group.

 

why? why is it such a bad thing to over-level content so you can solo it? why?

 

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be group content. on the contrary. I'm one of the people who is unhappy that there is no NEW group content in expansion for foreseeable future. however. I'm having serious trouble understanding why is it that out-leveling content so that you could solo it - bothers you so much?

 

or... is it BECAUSE we are getting no new group content that people are so bound and determined to force people to group for content that already exists? that only makes the whole thing worse, you know.

[Jeweledleah]

where have i said you have to do it at level and grouped?

 

but in all honesty i am done trying to explain things to you....i have explained it over and over again

 

so its this simple...the devs want the FPs to be scaled so you have 2 choices deal with it or quit

 

i care not either way. and i really could care less how you spend your time in the game but i refuse to bow to the masses and not be a voice of disention when i feel its needed.

 

there's always a third option. point out why forced scaling is a bad idea.

 

why?

 

becasue developers are human. they don't always know best, and they DO make mistakes. and when they make mistakes, people leave. you say - you should quit, well... that is NOT a good option. for developers. becasue their livelihood kinda depends on people wanting to pay to play their game. people leaving means less money, means they get fired.

 

we can always quit anyways if they chose not to listen to feedback. but.. there's STILL time for feedback. we do not have to just blindly accept whatever they decide to do or quit without saying a word.

[Upirlikhyi]

why? why is it such a bad thing to over-level content so you can solo it? why?

 

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be group content. on the contrary. I'm one of the people who is unhappy that there is no NEW group content in expansion for foreseeable future. however. I'm having serious trouble understanding why is it that out-leveling content so that you could solo it - bothers you so much?

 

or... is it BECAUSE we are getting no new group content that people are so bound and determined to force people to group for content that already exists? that only makes the whole thing worse, you know.

 

omg where on earth have i said that it was a bad thing? i have never said it was a bad thing or it was wrong to over-level something...

 

i wish everyone would take a deep breath calm down and relax about this scaling crap until we get the final word from BW...

 

i love discussion and debate about issues but people really need to quit the assumption that i think its bad or even that i care a player chooses to skip stuff to avoid GF...

[Upirlikhyi]

there's always a third option. point out why forced scaling is a bad idea.

 

why?

 

becasue developers are human. they don't always know best, and they DO make mistakes. and when they make mistakes, people leave. you say - you should quit, well... that is NOT a good option. for developers. becasue their livelihood kinda depends on people wanting to pay to play their game. people leaving means less money, means they get fired.

 

we can always quit anyways if they chose not to listen to feedback. but.. there's STILL time for feedback. we do not have to just blindly accept whatever they decide to do or quit without saying a word.

 

not saying to blindly accept it...my whole point to this thread was to have provide feedback from the viewpoint of forced scaling is a good idea.

[sentientomega]

How does forced scaling not create limits?

 

Limits, by their very nature, are confining, and confinement is not good, therefore forced scaling is not good.

[Jeweledleah]

not saying to blindly accept it...my whole point to this thread was to have provide feedback from the viewpoint of forced scaling is a good idea.

 

and we are providing feedback why its NOT.

 

so far, nothing you have said outweighs the fact that forced scaling removes more from the game than it adds.

 

optional scaling? ok. forced scaling? no.

 

also. by definition if you are claiming that forced scaling is a GOOD idea, and arguing AGAINST optional scaling (which you are) - you are essentially saying that optional scaling is bad and outleveling content to be able to solo it is bad. let force scaling remove that option, becasue forced scaling is good - is roughly what you are saying.

 

calming down about the issue can give developers the wrong idea that players are ok with it.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Tahra]

Of course it should be optional!

 

Why does it bother anyone that someone else enjoys the game in a different way than you. Leave them be. Don't force them into YOUR type of enjoyment.

 

How would you feel if PvP was suddenly made mandatory? You would only be able to level up after you had won at least 5 matches. And this for every single level. Anyone who hates pvp would be pissed off about such a change.

 

I see many people naming easy heroics as the main reason, but that's far from the only one (and not even the main reason for me personally). I just don't do heroics, period. Sure, I did them on my first character, but too much hassle/too much frustration. Not worth it. And guess what... if this change is not optional they just made THE ENTIRE PRE-60 GAME like that; too much hassle, not worth doing. No more dailies. No more going back to do some never before done quest you forgot about or skipped.

 

Certainly forget about ever leveling a new character ever again, because I like to OVERLEVEL stuff so it's a bit easier. Sure the first few planets aren't hard, but the later ones can be pretty punishing if you make a mistake or pull extra adds. Silver mobs are horrible! So yeah, I would not want to be downscaled.

 

All in all it boils down to this; if downscaling on planets is forced, then it's the end of me pouring money into this game. Simple as that. A game without content to go back to and enjoy (and no, I don't enjoy being lvl 65, going to a planet AND AGROING EVERY SINGLE MOB I RIDE PASSED... certainly not with this horrible mount system where I'm often knocked off the mount in ONE FRICKING SINGLE HIT)

 

Do I seem frustrated? Well, that's because I am! They're ruining the game if this makes it to live servers. If this is not optional the game is done for me. All there is is the new outlander story, which is nice and all, but not worth a monthly sub and certainly not worth spending extra cash in the shop.

 

not saying to blindly accept it...my whole point to this thread was to have provide feedback from the viewpoint of forced scaling is a good idea.

 

And my whole point is to try and voice my frustration about this horrible change. Optional is fine. I'll never ever ever ever use it. Not optional is basically the death of the game to me (not quite dead, because I want to play the outlander story, but that's NOT worth a monthly sub if there's no other content to enjoy in the meantime!).

Edited September 25, 2015 by Tahra

[sentientomega]

and we are providing feedback why its NOT.

 

so far, nothing you have said outweighs the fact that forced scaling removes more from the game than it adds.

 

optional scaling? ok. forced scaling? no.

 

also. by definition if you are claiming that forced scaling is a GOOD idea, and arguing AGAINST optional scaling (which you are) - you are essentially saying that optional scaling is bad and outleveling content to be able to solo it is bad. let force scaling remove that option, becasue forced scaling is good - is roughly what you are saying.

 

calming down about the issue can give developers the wrong idea that players are ok with it.

 

Every single word here makes perfect sense, I could not've put this better myself.

 

It's comparable with making a forum thread somewhere that dying a slow and painful death at the hands of some punk Sith apprentice would be a bad idea, then, having seen that thread, in the interest, apparently, of opening a debate, someone'd make a topic about how dying an agonising death at the hands of a punk Sith apprentice is tubular, rad, and basically the best thing to experience since sliced bread.

 

Of course it should be optional!

 

Why does it bother anyone that someone else enjoys the game in a different way than you. Leave them be. Don't force them into YOUR type of enjoyment.

 

How would you feel if PvP was suddenly made mandatory? You would only be able to level up after you had won at least 5 matches. And this for every single level. Anyone who hates pvp would be pissed off about such a change.

 

I see many people naming easy heroics as the main reason, but that's far from the only one (and not even the main reason for me personally). I just don't do heroics, period. Sure, I did them on my first character, but too much hassle/too much frustration. Not worth it. And guess what... if this change is not optional they just made THE ENTIRE PRE-60 GAME like that; too much hassle, not worth doing. No more dailies. No more going back to do some never before done quest you forgot about or skipped.

 

Certainly forget about ever leveling a new character ever again, because I like to OVERLEVEL stuff so it's a bit easier. Sure the first few planets aren't hard, but the later ones can be pretty punishing if you make a mistake or pull extra adds. Silver mobs are horrible! So yeah, I would not want to be downscaled.

 

All in all it boils down to this; if downscaling on planets is forced, then it's the end of me pouring money into this game. Simple as that. A game without content to go back to and enjoy (and no, I don't enjoy being lvl 65, going to a planet AND AGROING EVERY SINGLE MOB I RIDE PASSED... certainly not with this horrible mount system where I'm often knocked off the mount in ONE FRICKING SINGLE HIT)

 

Do I seem frustrated? Well, that's because I am! They're ruining the game if this makes it to live servers. If this is not optional the game is done for me. All there is is the new outlander story, which is nice and all, but not worth a monthly sub and certainly not worth spending extra cash in the shop.

 

 

 

And my whole point is to try and voice my frustration about this horrible change. Optional is fine. I'll never ever ever ever use it. Not optional is basically the death of the game to me (not quite dead, because I want to play the outlander story, but that's NOT worth a monthly sub if there's no other content to enjoy in the meantime!).

 

As above, and honestly, it'd be more trouble than it's worth for BW:A to try and screw with world stuff like this. FPs are one thing, because of the wider range of GF content for 10-65s.

[Max_Killjoy]

where have i said you have to do it at level and grouped?

 

In this thread, repeatedly, unless you're doing a terrible job of presenting your position on the matter.

 

The title of the thread is even "Why scaling should not be optional".

Edited September 25, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[MillionsKNives]

those who choose to skip things until they are max level for the ease of doing it. Or because they don't like GF should not get their way.

 

where have i said you have to do it at level and grouped?

 

omg where on earth have i said that it was a bad thing? i have never said it was a bad thing or it was wrong to over-level something...

 

i love discussion and debate about issues but people really need to quit the assumption that i think its bad or even that i care a player chooses to skip stuff to avoid GF...

 

Uhh wut?

Edited September 25, 2015 by MillionsKNives

[TUXs]

Of course it should be optional!

 

Why does it bother anyone that someone else enjoys the game in a different way than you. Leave them be. Don't force them into YOUR type of enjoyment.

 

How would you feel if PvP was suddenly made mandatory? You would only be able to level up after you had won at least 5 matches. And this for every single level. Anyone who hates pvp would be pissed off about such a change.

 

I see many people naming easy heroics as the main reason, but that's far from the only one (and not even the main reason for me personally). I just don't do heroics, period. Sure, I did them on my first character, but too much hassle/too much frustration. Not worth it. And guess what... if this change is not optional they just made THE ENTIRE PRE-60 GAME like that; too much hassle, not worth doing. No more dailies. No more going back to do some never before done quest you forgot about or skipped.

 

Certainly forget about ever leveling a new character ever again, because I like to OVERLEVEL stuff so it's a bit easier. Sure the first few planets aren't hard, but the later ones can be pretty punishing if you make a mistake or pull extra adds. Silver mobs are horrible! So yeah, I would not want to be downscaled.

 

All in all it boils down to this; if downscaling on planets is forced, then it's the end of me pouring money into this game. Simple as that. A game without content to go back to and enjoy (and no, I don't enjoy being lvl 65, going to a planet AND AGROING EVERY SINGLE MOB I RIDE PASSED... certainly not with this horrible mount system where I'm often knocked off the mount in ONE FRICKING SINGLE HIT)

 

Do I seem frustrated? Well, that's because I am! They're ruining the game if this makes it to live servers. If this is not optional the game is done for me. All there is is the new outlander story, which is nice and all, but not worth a monthly sub and certainly not worth spending extra cash in the shop.

 

And my whole point is to try and voice my frustration about this horrible change. Optional is fine. I'll never ever ever ever use it. Not optional is basically the death of the game to me (not quite dead, because I want to play the outlander story, but that's NOT worth a monthly sub if there's no other content to enjoy in the meantime!).

Great reply!!! Please keep up the debate.

[Sarfux]

No, should not be optional.

 

If they do a system like Guild Wars 2 has where YOU personally have a level, but the game scales to what level range you come into, I would gladly welcome that and it should not be optional.

[jedip_enguin]

Thread needs more rage and hyperbole, I'm starting to lose interest.

[Sarfux]

Ok people, please relax here! This is only a rumor not confirmed by anything or anybody. Even if it is true, it will probably be something like Guild Wars 2 level scaling. It won't force you to do anything. Maybe some of you haven't played Guild Wars 2 at all so you don't know what I'm talking about. But the leveling system in that game is great. YOU have a level. You level just like a normal mmorpg. But if you go into zones that are a certain level range, the game will scale you to THAT level range and you'll be able to infinitely do the content that is in there.

 

So if they make quests and stuff repeatable, you would be able to go back to Hutta if you were level 65 (yes you would stay 65) it won't magically force your character down to level 1. But you will get scaled with that zone so you can do the stuff LIKE you were 1-10 again. It's really a great system and one that I think if you know how GW2 works, many would welcome.

 

I think it would be a great idea to implement, if that's what I'm thinking it is. Maybe not. Maybe downscaling will be nuking our characters and we can't get back to 65 No need to jump on over exaggerations here. :eek: