Why scaling should not be optional

[branmakmuffin]

I'm not going to continue having my discussion with Rafa with you.

You just did.

[Archie_Opterix]

How would the scaling work? Would it say, on a level 10 planet give a high level player the equivalent of level 10 purple crafted gear. Would it keep any set bonuses on the gear they've currently equipped? What if some gear components are a drastically different rating to the others (always possible with augments and color crystals v. hilts, barrels and armorings on levelling gear)? There's too many things I think the scaling could struggle with, though I suppose Makeb managed it, but that was scaling the other way.

 

If it were up to me you could still get the rewards from the TONS of solo content already in the game. You're the one basically wanting an aspect of the game cater to YOUR whims, I'm not trying to change the aspect you enjoy here.

I.e. you want the multiplayer aspect of the game cater to your CHOSEN single player attitude so you can do that content. In no way am I saying take anything away from your SOLO content.

 

While I do understand what you're saying, I must point out that while there is a lot of solo content in the games, at low levels at least there isn't all that much repeatable solo content. Just the starter planet Heroic 2s (meaning player + companion). I'm not sure how relevant that is but it's worth saying.

 

The rewards seem to be scaling based on your max level. So you get better rewards than the people who are level 10 doing the level 10 heroic. Yes you get scaled back to around say 12 for arguments sake if you CHOOSE to do so however you will get rewards more approriate to your level.

 

That's a fairly nice carrot there.

 

OK, I can see why that might be a problem. I don't think non-downscaled players should receive upscaled rewards, but should I think still receive the baseline rewards as they are now. Would this hypothetical reward system apply in reverse too, ala KDY?

 

This is not a bug. They have specifically made it so that content that is low enough can't harm you. The game mechanics explicitly call for this situation to happen, so unless the entire leveling system and how stats works is "bugged" then this is actually the intended behavior.

 

Within reason. The Corascant WB's proximity laser can still one-shot you, even at level 60 if you don't avoid it. The rocket engines on Caduminu can still catch an unsuspecting player too. Or any player who gets an unlucky lag spike.

 

Since you're just talking about a difference in rewards here while retaining the ability to do the content at your real level if you so choose, then I'd be interested in knowing what kind of rewards system you really want. I think a lot of the backlash about the idea that those who are over leveling the content shouldn't get rewarded (remember this is in the context of a thread titled "Why scaling should not be optional") comes from the desire to preserve the rewards that are currently given for them. I'm personally not too worried about missing out on a level 65 thumbs-up that's handed out upon completing the mission at-level, I'm worried about losing access to that cool looking level 20 piece that either drops or is rewarded from the mission turn in on the live servers.

 

Something like this makes more sense as a meta-system than an actual direct change to the heroics and such, kind of like conquests is. You pick up a mission that says "you must complete X heroics while using the scaling system to qualify for some super cool level [insert your level here] reward".

 

This is the reward system I'm hoping for. The mission part I would make like the HM Flashpoints, where you select which one you want from the questgiver. Then it scales you until you either cancel it or turn it in.

 

I'm still waiting for someone who is opposed to reward removal give a valid reason on why they should be rewarded for effectively doing something on god mode. Key word being reward.

 

So far all I've seen I believe is "because that's how it is now", that's not really answering the question to me - what case can be made to Bioware right now to change their mind justify why you should get a reward for doing god mode content? How do you deserve it?

 

Also let's not forget this might actually help with some of those pesky gold farmers depending on how they implement this change in open world also. Anything that makes their botting for income that little bit harder to achieve is good news to me also.

 

Because there is a slight expense in terms of the travel and repair costs for doing that content, which players need to cover. It doesn't take much of a reward, such that the current ones are more than adequate, but it does need something.

Also, re gold farming, steamrolling low level mobs does not seem like an efficient way of making credits.

[Chim-Lou]

I don't understand why we are bothering with levels anyways if we get downgraded. Why doesn't everyone either start at lvl 60 (65) or everyone stays at lvl 1?

Would make things a lot easier. And fair, regarding some comments here.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Go back and read the threads about this sort of thing carefully... it's not the people saying "please leave us be, we're having fun, you go have fun your way, and we'll all be OK" who light the fires.

 

It's almost as if those of us who go through our average session of SWTOR without queing up for something or spamming "LFG for ________" on multiple planets each are perceived as an existential threat by the "group uber alles" / "It's an MMO (and never mind the RPG part), you HAVE to group!" people.

 

The fires are lit by Bioware by implementing the change ( or if it's completely false by the trolls who fabricated the whole thing though I doubt this is the case ).

Those against defend their position and those for it defend their position ... commonly known as discussions or arguments.

 

It's like you're trying to act that anyone who sees the merit in this change is trying to take something away from you. Well we aren't, Bioware will be.

 

If you look back through this thread some of the people against the change are far more the "hair on fire brigade" than those for it. All for what? Because they might lose their shinies they used to get by doing god mode content?

 

That's of course assuming it's optional which all rumor thus far implies that it is ( you know the same rumour that said this change was coming to begin with ) - if it were mandatory then I'm completely on the side of making it optional, just that the optional I've seen removes or gives less rewards to those that choose to god mode it and I support that form of optional.

 

Given the choice though between optional where rewards stay as is or mandatory ... I would go with optional since mandatory actually removes content.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

i don't care anymore at all

 

i want this thread to die....its ran its course so i am asking for people to just let it die

 

if i knew how to get it locked i would

 

Just because you made the first post doesn't actually make it "your" thread, you're just the OP.

 

You started a discussion and now the majority of people are discussing/arguing it accordingly ( carried on from another topic, we all tend to get a bit tired of a topic after X amount of pages and carry it on in another thread ) - if you don't want to take part then don't take part, simple.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'm not going to continue having my discussion with Rafa with you. Getting tired of repeating myself and you ignoring my reasons so that you can just label it misrepresentation. Rafa can fight his own battles.

 

Nothing is being ignored, you seem incapable of basic comprehension.

 

Also funny how your discussion with Rafa all started with you jumping to the defense of someone else he was having a discussion with all because you decided to purposely misinterpret what he was saying to seemingly try demean and belittle his point to that poster.

 

If it's only their intent until they change it then their intent has no real bearing on this discussion, as it apparently changes on a whim. Only the pros and cons of the change matter. So we can stop bringing up "intent" as a form of argument.

 

No we don't just stop bringing up a point because you say so, if it's too much for you to comprehend and respond to in kind then walk away.

 

There is nothing stating they change their intent on a whim - if it was one way for 3.5 years and now it's another way going into 4.0 that points more to well thought out process of change for the benefit of the entire game. Especially when taken into context of the other grouping changes that are coming around operations scaling etc. Seems to me when you look at the big picture you see a lot of thought and process going into improving the casual group content of this game. This is for the greater good imo.

 

Bioware's intent is also important because it dictates the attitude some people take into these arguments. Is it "they are just trying to kill solo play they hate solo play" or "they are trying to bring a balance between group and solo play to this game for the good of all" or something else entirely. The person who sees their intent as some sort of personal attack on them tends to view anyone supporting the change in the same light.

 

This is shown by Jeweledleah and sentientomega earlier in the thread basically lumping anyone who wanted to change how they do things now as being anti solo play without any other real basis from those of who do support change saying we do hate solo play.

 

Emotion got the better of them I assume and they couldn't see the forest for the trees and see that possibly BW has other intent than what they think they. Also the intent of those of us supporting this changes isn't necessarily "we hate solo play everyone has to group" yet it quickly gets looked at in such a manner and those responses against are assumed as such.

 

Funny thing is I'm far more of a solo player in this game than I am a group player. I do enjoy the casual group content though but it's pretty annoying to do because too much effort has to go in to find a group. These changes should help with that though I'll still be mostly a solo player at heart.

 

 

The fact that they let it go on this long says that they did intend for it to happen, but now they may think differently, in my opinion. You're just guessing at their intent and using that to try to prove a point.

 

Let what go on for so long? The topic? Aren't you a forum regular? Since when did they start shutting down topics because the debate was too fierce? Very rarely, they ban those that get out of line, delete posts as required, they rarely entirely close a topic because the debate was too much.

 

In saying that this entire topic ( and many others lately ) goes against the no disucssing/posting unofficial information line they spewed out a few weeks back. So that fact these have gone on so long is just another fail for Eric and his team but their performance is a whole other topic in of itself.

 

Yes guessing at their intent to support my argument, that's exactly what I'm doing - why is this an issue? It's called an opinion. I'm not saying blatantly "They are doing this so this MUST be there intent".

However if they did remove rewards then it would be hard to say they intend on you getting rewards for god moding content but they removed it ... that would make no sense. We could say they changed their mind too, we could say many things. Either way it's all opinion and conjecture to support our arguments.

 

 

What exactly they would do with the rewards would be what is important in your scenario. They could do it well, such as having non-related bonuses for those who do it at level, or they could do it badly, such as rewarding nothing.

 

They could do it anyway they want, my point is I would be more in favour of them removing the godm ode rewards entirely then rewarding both the synced and unsynced players the same rewards. That does not encourage group play.

 

[/People have given reasons, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

 

It's part of a progression system that as you get better you're able to go back and do things that you couldn't do before, and that includes getting the same reward for it that you would have otherwise. Either way, I still did the content, why does how I did it matter for my reward? "Sir I need you to kill some bad guys for me, could you help? Woah now, you killed them far too easily and too quickly, you don't deserve this hat I was going to give you."

 

What's the point of levels if flexing your muscles actually punishes you? What's the actual progression if you're forced to always fight things at your level?

 

This is how pretty much every RPG works. You start off weak, you get a bit stronger, you get the ability to stomp early areas for stuff you missed.

 

That's the fun for some people, and it's also the best shot they have at getting some of those rewards. They're not interested in the challenge, they want to do the content and get the rewards with ease. So you get the option, you can do it at level (or scaled to level) and have it be a challenge, or you can do it once you've beefed up and stomp those lowbie mobs that are nothing to you now at your new power.

 

Remember we are talking about the change here, not how it is. How it is now has no sync ability and only purely has the option of doing a level 10 heroic when I'm level 10 if I want it to be challenging.

 

Level sync comes in and we can debate all day WHY they are doing it and again it's opinion ( much like the intent debate above ) but fact is that if it comes then it comes and that's what we are discussing here.

 

If it comes then why should someone who can god mode the content be given the same or any reward vs those that use the new feature? At the moment this choice doesn't exist, once you've leveled too far you can't change your mind to go back and try make it more challenging again.

 

Where am i saying i want to force you to fight things at your level? I say don't use level sync, have tons of fun god moding content and mobs and bosses if that's your thing. Just don't expect to be rewarded for if we get this new system it means there is an option again to do the content in a challenging manner regardless of your level.

 

Now that this function would exist there is no need to reward you anymore because the "damn I missed that when I was level 10 and I didn't really know how to play the game then" argument ceases to exist. However with it being optional at least if you REALLY want to do it in god mode then you can do so, just don't expect to be rewarded for it.

 

Yes you could do it that way before and get rewarded, you didn't have any other option after you out leveled it. Now you will.

 

Also I would point out I've no issue with group content they actively design to have solo mode content to - i.e. solo mode flashpoints. Those are designed that way, are still pretty easy but you can die and fail still. God mode though ... this should not be called solo mode for the purposes of any debate I am making because it's anti god mode that I am, not anti solo mode.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

How would the scaling work? Would it say, on a level 10 planet give a high level player the equivalent of level 10 purple crafted gear. Would it keep any set bonuses on the gear they've currently equipped? What if some gear components are a drastically different rating to the others (always possible with augments and color crystals v. hilts, barrels and armorings on levelling gear)? There's too many things I think the scaling could struggle with, though I suppose Makeb managed it, but that was scaling the other way.

 

That's the million dollar question I guess. No doubt it will make you quite a bit stronger than you should be for the level however I imagine it will stop you easily god moding through the heroics. For a semi-skilled player the 2+ will no doubt still be doable but hopefully you'll have to group for the 4+ ones which will help get newer players into grouping before they hit elder game which would have the net benefit in the long run of having more players willing to give ops a go ( and justifying BW spending money on new ops which I would have thought the raiding community would be all for ).

 

 

While I do understand what you're saying, I must point out that while there is a lot of solo content in the games, at low levels at least there isn't all that much repeatable solo content. Just the starter planet Heroic 2s (meaning player + companion). I'm not sure how relevant that is but it's worth saying.

 

IMO those are there to get you into grouping though. I imagine there is no pure repeatable solo content at lower levels because well why would you need it? BW I assume imagine everyone plays the story and gets stronger and would have no need to repeat content whilst leveling. I doubt anyone really repeats the heroics much either whilst at level.

The 12xp and from what I've read of the new exp gain system will basically not have you hanging around long on your levels so there really is no need for repeatable low level solo content because the game itself is solo content ( many hours worth ) and once you start hitting the old cap levels you start getting repeatable solo content.

 

OK, I can see why that might be a problem. I don't think non-downscaled players should receive upscaled rewards, but should I think still receive the baseline rewards as they are now. Would this hypothetical reward system apply in reverse too, ala KDY?

 

They won't get the downscaled rewards. The argument is whether or not they'll still get any rewards for doing the heroic etc. I however at this stage haven't heard anything about drops from mobs/bosses.

 

No idea about KDY - I assume everything is getting the sync style rewards to give you rewards for doing X activity ( heroics/tactical ) and the reward will be relevant to your level.

 

Because there is a slight expense in terms of the travel and repair costs for doing that content, which players need to cover. It doesn't take much of a reward, such that the current ones are more than adequate, but it does need something.

Also, re gold farming, steamrolling low level mobs does not seem like an efficient way of making credits.

 

There are no repair costs for god mode content? Travel is debatable these days too, maybe a few credits if you use your ship? Either way the game does need some money sinks but I really don't see them having the god mode mobs dropping nothing at all, I imagine at the very least the credits will still drop but will drop to what you would get running it at that level as opposed to your character level.

 

Also, re gold farming, steamrolling low level mobs does not seem like an efficient way of making credits.

 

Yeah I've seen videos of bots that pick particular points in the open world to fight champions etc. and it's all basically on auto play. No doubt Bioware does something about this but a level sync might make it so anything like a champion or world boss no longer gives a good reward unless you are sync'd meaning you basically couldn't bot it anymore.

[MillionsKNives]

No we don't just stop bringing up a point because you say so, if it's too much for you to comprehend and respond to in kind then walk away.

 

There is nothing stating they change their intent on a whim - if it was one way for 3.5 years and now it's another way going into 4.0 that points more to well thought out process of change for the benefit of the entire game. Especially when taken into context of the other grouping changes that are coming around operations scaling etc. Seems to me when you look at the big picture you see a lot of thought and process going into improving the casual group content of this game. This is for the greater good imo.

 

It was intended to be played the way it is now, it will (maybe) be intended to be played differently later. Which dev "intention" holds more weight? They're both the intended way to play, and they're both at odds with each other. Is it the old one because it's been around longer, or the new one because it's what they feel like now? So again, the actual arguments for why one is better is what matters, not what the devs "intend".

 

And what on earth does what the devs "intend" matter to us as players anyway? I'm sure as hell not going to spend my playtime worrying about whether what I do is what the devs "intend" me to be doing.

 

There are arguments to be made for why this is a good or bad decision (the pros and cons I mentioned), and I would much rather discuss those than some useless idea that because it's the way the devs intend then it must be right.

 

Bioware's intent is also important because it dictates the attitude some people take into these arguments. Is it "they are just trying to kill solo play they hate solo play" or "they are trying to bring a balance between group and solo play to this game for the good of all" or something else entirely. The person who sees their intent as some sort of personal attack on them tends to view anyone supporting the change in the same light.

 

This is shown by Jeweledleah and sentientomega earlier in the thread basically lumping anyone who wanted to change how they do things now as being anti solo play without any other real basis from those of who do support change saying we do hate solo play.

 

Emotion got the better of them I assume and they couldn't see the forest for the trees and see that possibly BW has other intent than what they think they. Also the intent of those of us supporting this changes isn't necessarily "we hate solo play everyone has to group" yet it quickly gets looked at in such a manner and those responses against are assumed as such.

 

Funny thing is I'm far more of a solo player in this game than I am a group player. I do enjoy the casual group content though but it's pretty annoying to do because too much effort has to go in to find a group. These changes should help with that though I'll still be mostly a solo player at heart.

 

Weren't we talking about intent as in "how do they intend for you to play the game", when did it change to intent as in "why do they intend to make this change"? The kind of intent you're talking about here is even harder to say with certainty, since we won't know exactly why they made the change unless they say it. At least with the game play mechanics you can mostly assume that the way it works is how it's intended to work.

 

Let what go on for so long? The topic? Aren't you a forum regular? Since when did they start shutting down topics because the debate was too fierce? Very rarely, they ban those that get out of line, delete posts as required, they rarely entirely close a topic because the debate was too much.

 

In saying that this entire topic ( and many others lately ) goes against the no disucssing/posting unofficial information line they spewed out a few weeks back. So that fact these have gone on so long is just another fail for Eric and his team but their performance is a whole other topic in of itself.

 

To clarify my statement: "The fact that they let the game work the way it does for so long points to how it's working being how they intended it to work, in my opinion."

 

Yes guessing at their intent to support my argument, that's exactly what I'm doing - why is this an issue? It's called an opinion. I'm not saying blatantly "They are doing this so this MUST be there intent".

However if they did remove rewards then it would be hard to say they intend on you getting rewards for god moding content but they removed it ... that would make no sense. We could say they changed their mind too, we could say many things. Either way it's all opinion and conjecture to support our arguments.

 

Opinions and conjecture don't support arguments. There are other logical guesses that can be made which don't support your argument.

 

My point is, that their intent, which we don't know, has been used as a reason for why this will be such a good change. Since we don't know, it doesn't make a very good argument.

 

If it comes then why should someone who can god mode the content be given the same or any reward vs those that use the new feature? At the moment this choice doesn't exist, once you've leveled too far you can't change your mind to go back and try make it more challenging again.

 

The answer to your question is partially contained in the follow up sentence. Some people now would like the option to go back and try to make old heroics challenging again. Either because they like to group and it's another opportunity, they just like to challenge themselves in different scenarios, or because they really liked that content. If the old content being available at-level to anyone is so compelling then why do they need to lock in the rewards to only those that do it that way?

 

Why should they get any reward? Because they did the content, they deserve the reward. It doesn't matter if it's not challenging, they still did it. The starter planets, heck most of the solo content, is trivial even at level, and yet they still give rewards. Having god mode while doing it is just an expression of how powerful you've become within the story's advancement. On the other hand, as I have said already, I'm not completely opposed to having some form of differentiated reward for doing the content at-level, but I don't think that should mean they remove having any compelling reward for doing it at any level.

 

Where am i saying i want to force you to fight things at your level? I say don't use level sync, have tons of fun god moding content and mobs and bosses if that's your thing. Just don't expect to be rewarded for if we get this new system it means there is an option again to do the content in a challenging manner regardless of your level.

 

You're forced to if you want to not be punished for it by having your rewards removed.

 

Now that this function would exist there is no need to reward you anymore because the "damn I missed that when I was level 10 and I didn't really know how to play the game then" argument ceases to exist. However with it being optional at least if you REALLY want to do it in god mode then you can do so, just don't expect to be rewarded for it.

 

Yes you could do it that way before and get rewarded, you didn't have any other option after you out leveled it. Now you will.

 

It's great that it will be available for people who want to go back and have that challenge, but you're missing the point I made in the last post. Those people don't want the challenge. They just want to go back and get the rewards, and they should be able to.

[Archie_Opterix]

That's the million dollar question I guess. No doubt it will make you quite a bit stronger than you should be for the level however I imagine it will stop you easily god moding through the heroics. For a semi-skilled player the 2+ will no doubt still be doable but hopefully you'll have to group for the 4+ ones which will help get newer players into grouping before they hit elder game which would have the net benefit in the long run of having more players willing to give ops a go ( and justifying BW spending money on new ops which I would have thought the raiding community would be all for ).

 

That might be what's intended but I doubt it will work out that way. I remember when Lord of the Rings Online released its scaled Epic Battles and they were saying how both levels and loot would be scaling so that anyone from level 20-85 could play together. Here's what by and large actually happened:

 

'World: lfm HD Rank 4+', or as I call it, 'the no newbies need apply rule'. Because the veterens had better (and more) skills and usually better gear, not to mention better knowledge of the run, they would only do the instance with each other, leaving a Rank 0 player unable to get a group.

 

IMO those are there to get you into grouping though. I imagine there is no pure repeatable solo content at lower levels because well why would you need it? BW I assume imagine everyone plays the story and gets stronger and would have no need to repeat content whilst leveling. I doubt anyone really repeats the heroics much either whilst at level.

The 12xp and from what I've read of the new exp gain system will basically not have you hanging around long on your levels so there really is no need for repeatable low level solo content because the game itself is solo content ( many hours worth ) and once you start hitting the old cap levels you start getting repeatable solo content.

 

It is possible to fall behind though, especially on a f2p/preferred acount due to the penalty. And grinding mobs for levels doesn't really endear anyone to the game. At the moment a level 40 f2p/pref player could probably group for Foundry/Maelstrom Prison easily as they'd likely be better geared than a similaly levelled sub with 12XP (due to actually getting all the quest rewards and levellinng slowly enough that crafting can keep up) but that could well change once 12XP goes away.

 

No idea about KDY - I assume everything is getting the sync style rewards to give you rewards for doing X activity ( heroics/tactical ) and the reward will be relevant to your level.

 

My point with KDY was wondering if the scaling would enable people to run content intended for a higher level bolstered and get scaled rewards?

 

There are no repair costs for god mode content? Travel is debatable these days too, maybe a few credits if you use your ship? Either way the game does need some money sinks but I really don't see them having the god mode mobs dropping nothing at all, I imagine at the very least the credits will still drop but will drop to what you would get running it at that level as opposed to your character level.

 

There are repair costs. Unless you get killed, usually due to positioning, they won't be high repair costs but they do exist. As for travel, I suppose I'm remembering when I went on a spending spree on the gtn while on Corascant and found I didn't have enough left afterwards to go anywhere a higher level than Tatooine. If the rewards for low level heroics were removed completely, I'd have been really stuck.

[Archie_Opterix]

edit: sorry for the double post. Edited September 27, 2015 by Archie_Opterix

[Faelandaea]

edit: Sorry for the double post.

 

No! No forgiveness!!!!!

Edited September 27, 2015 by Faelandaea

[TravelersWay]

That's the million dollar question I guess. No doubt it will make you quite a bit stronger than you should be for the level however I imagine it will stop you easily god moding through the heroics. For a semi-skilled player the 2+ will no doubt still be doable but hopefully you'll have to group for the 4+ ones which will help get newer players into grouping before they hit elder game which would have the net benefit in the long run of having more players willing to give ops a go

 

That's the fallacy. Grouping traditionalists in MMOs always seem to think that games forcing people to group up for content will mean more people grouping, but the paradigm shifts in the industry and community do not bear that out. Hence those shifts away from mandatory grouping content to more accessible playable content. If someone is not inclined to group before a mechanic like this is implemented, that system isn't going to change that inclination. Those people are more apt to just skip the content than to try to group for it.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's the fallacy. Grouping traditionalists in MMOs always seem to think that games forcing people to group up for content will mean more people grouping, but the paradigm shifts in the industry and community do not bear that out. Hence those shifts away from mandatory grouping content to more accessible playable content. If someone is not inclined to group before a mechanic like this is implemented, that system isn't going to change that inclination. Those people are more apt to just skip the content than to try to group for it.

 

Exactly.

 

The amount of group content some of us will do in groups after the adoption of forced downscaling will be an "at best" 0% higher than it is now.

[Jeweledleah]

Exactly.

 

The amount of group content some of us will do in groups after the adoption of forced downscaling will be an "at best" 0% higher than it is now.

 

yep. what was that saying? you can lead the horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. people who would rather not group - are not going to start grouping just becasue the content is scaled. some that are less reward oriented - will play through once on storymode, just to sight see and then move on. and some... will just move on, period.

[SelinaH]

That's the fallacy. Grouping traditionalists in MMOs always seem to think that games forcing people to group up for content will mean more people grouping, but the paradigm shifts in the industry and community do not bear that out. Hence those shifts away from mandatory grouping content to more accessible playable content. If someone is not inclined to group before a mechanic like this is implemented, that system isn't going to change that inclination. Those people are more apt to just skip the content than to try to group for it.

This is me. I'm old and cranky and when I decide to group up to run content, I do it with my friends - not some random stranger or three.

 

I simply don't have the patience to deal with that kind of frustration anymore.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It was intended to be played the way it is now, it will (maybe) be intended to be played differently later. Which dev "intention" holds more weight? They're both the intended way to play, and they're both at odds with each other. Is it the old one because it's been around longer, or the new one because it's what they feel like now? So again, the actual arguments for why one is better is what matters, not what the devs "intend".

 

The only one relevant is the one that is relevant to this topic. If you want to argue the intent of why they had it the way it is for the past 3.5 years then go make a topic about that.

This topic is clearly about the sclaing option that is likely coming with 4.0 thus any intent on the developers behalf has to be around why they are changing it.

 

 

And what on earth does what the devs "intend" matter to us as players anyway? I'm sure as hell not going to spend my playtime worrying about whether what I do is what the devs "intend" me to be doing.

 

I went over this, read it again.

 

 

There are arguments to be made for why this is a good or bad decision (the pros and cons I mentioned), and I would much rather discuss those than some useless idea that because it's the way the devs intend then it must be right.

 

Then stop arguing it? I'm happy to argue either point because I see validity in the argument around intent, if you don't then you are pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing. No one is forcing you to reply saying "I don't see the point in arguing it so I'll argue it anyway".

 

Weren't we talking about intent as in "how do they intend for you to play the game", when did it change to intent as in "why do they intend to make this change"? The kind of intent you're talking about here is even harder to say with certainty, since we won't know exactly why they made the change unless they say it. At least with the game play mechanics you can mostly assume that the way it works is how it's intended to work.

 

So you think by intent I meant how they intended for me to play the game yet you think intent by your definition was a waste of time arguing? How does that even make sense? The how is the mechanics of the change basically which is more or less the bread and butter of the entire topic - if that's a waste of time why are you here?

 

I think if you go back over my posts it's clear I am talking about possible reasons for why they are changing the content when I speak of intent, not how they are intending on changing it. One would think this was obvious.

 

 

To clarify my statement: "The fact that they let the game work the way it does for so long points to how it's working being how they intended it to work, in my opinion."

 

You're just guessing at their intent and using that to try to prove a point.

 

Sounds familiar?

 

 

Opinions and conjecture don't support arguments.

 

Then why did you do the exact same thing in the post above hmm?

 

There are other logical guesses that can be made which don't support your argument.

 

Cool, let's hear them then.

 

My point is, that their intent, which we don't know, has been used as a reason for why this will be such a good change. Since we don't know, it doesn't make a very good argument.

 

Sure it does, we don't even know this change is factual so if you truly believe that one shouldn't base ones arguments on "opinion and conjecture" then this isn't the argument ( or the forums really ) for you, move along.

 

 

The answer to your question is partially contained in the follow up sentence. Some people now would like the option to go back and try to make old heroics challenging again. Either because they like to group and it's another opportunity, they just like to challenge themselves in different scenarios, or because they really liked that content. If the old content being available at-level to anyone is so compelling then why do they need to lock in the rewards to only those that do it that way?

 

Because it's a reward? Why reward for anything for mediocrity? The content itself should be reward enough, the fact you got to do it in god mode and got to see what you choose to not group up and do. You know ... have fun. As far as I know you don't have to be rewarded to have fun.

 

Why should they get any reward? Because they did the content, they deserve the reward. It doesn't matter if it's not challenging, they still did it. The starter planets, heck most of the solo content, is trivial even at level, and yet they still give rewards. Having god mode while doing it is just an expression of how powerful you've become within the story's advancement. On the other hand, as I have said already, I'm not completely opposed to having some form of differentiated reward for doing the content at-level, but I don't think that should mean they remove having any compelling reward for doing it at any level.

 

That's your opinion though, you're not basing your own argument on opinion are you? According to you then that argument isn't very well supported at all.

 

My opinion is that giving you anything, beyond the fun of doing the content itself, as a reward for god mode is pretty silly. You didn't earn a thing.

 

Also you can't really bring story into it because you are effectively also time traveling back to do the content as well. I don't really see that explained in the story so this all exists outside of the story.

 

 

You're forced to if you want to not be punished for it by having your rewards removed.

 

No, you can choose to not do it. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying "go run that content in a group right now!". Also no ones rewards are removed, if you had done it before you get to keep those rewards.

 

 

 

It's great that it will be available for people who want to go back and have that challenge, but you're missing the point I made in the last post. Those people don't want the challenge. They just want to go back and get the rewards, and they should be able to.

 

Why should they be able to go back and do group content in god mode and get rewarded for it? It's god mode ... no one should be rewarded for anything god mode related.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

That might be what's intended but I doubt it will work out that way. I remember when Lord of the Rings Online released its scaled Epic Battles and they were saying how both levels and loot would be scaling so that anyone from level 20-85 could play together. Here's what by and large actually happened:

 

'World: lfm HD Rank 4+', or as I call it, 'the no newbies need apply rule'. Because the veterens had better (and more) skills and usually better gear, not to mention better knowledge of the run, they would only do the instance with each other, leaving a Rank 0 player unable to get a group.

 

Maybe but mostly we are talking pretty easy content to begin with so people will be happy to group with anyone available as it's hard to fail. Which is another reason that makes the whole rewarding god mode play even more pathetic imo.

 

It is possible to fall behind though, especially on a f2p/preferred acount due to the penalty. And grinding mobs for levels doesn't really endear anyone to the game. At the moment a level 40 f2p/pref player could probably group for Foundry/Maelstrom Prison easily as they'd likely be better geared than a similaly levelled sub with 12XP (due to actually getting all the quest rewards and levellinng slowly enough that crafting can keep up) but that could well change once 12XP goes away.

 

*shrug* the entire f2p/pref system needs a huge overhaul to be more attractive to begin with. I tend to look towards the standard supporter account in any arguments made on the forums ( unless specifically targeted towards a f2p/pref topic ) because I know the people I'm arguing with are also subs and get the same paid game experience I do with only choice seperating us for the most part.

 

 

My point with KDY was wondering if the scaling would enable people to run content intended for a higher level bolstered and get scaled rewards?

 

You run the content scaled, you get the reward relevant to your level as I understand - doesn't matter if you were scaled up or down.

 

There are repair costs. Unless you get killed, usually due to positioning, they won't be high repair costs but they do exist. As for travel, I suppose I'm remembering when I went on a spending spree on the gtn while on Corascant and found I didn't have enough left afterwards to go anywhere a higher level than Tatooine. If the rewards for low level heroics were removed completely, I'd have been really stuck.

 

There are? Really? What are the numbers around repairs where you don't die? Generally I don't think you are going to die in many of the heroics if you're in god mode - do any even have 1 hit mechanics?

 

Also you wouldn't be stuck, you could do the content at the level it's intended and have plenty of cash to move on.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

That's the fallacy. Grouping traditionalists in MMOs always seem to think that games forcing people to group up for content will mean more people grouping, but the paradigm shifts in the industry and community do not bear that out. Hence those shifts away from mandatory grouping content to more accessible playable content. If someone is not inclined to group before a mechanic like this is implemented, that system isn't going to change that inclination. Those people are more apt to just skip the content than to try to group for it.

 

I'm more talking about the player who does want to group but can't find a group. If this forces more like minded groupers in to that players path ( people from all levels ) then that player has more chance of getting a group and doing the content than they otherwise would have had now.

 

Also if there are more people on korriban doing LFG for a heroic then there is more chance someone who may not have been interested in grouping might give it a go. It certainly isn't going to decrease the amount of players doing grouped content.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Exactly.

 

The amount of group content some of us will do in groups after the adoption of forced downscaling will be an "at best" 0% higher than it is now.

 

Yup and that's your choice, however the key word there really is some. The gamble is for BW wil lthis change attract more people to doing grouped content and thus more to do in game on a whole vs any possible customers lost from them losing rewards in the god mode versions.

[Chim-Lou]

Can anyone explain to me what the point of levels is if I get downscaled on low level planets? What's the use of getting "rewards appropriate to my level" from doing heroics or whatever on a low level planet?

Why don't we just remove leveling up?

With scaling, the level is just an abstract artifact, just because "an RPG needs levels".

But I don't see the point if we get scaled down.

So please, anyone explain to me why we still need levels with scaling.

[therandyman]

Can anyone explain to me what the point of levels is if I get downscaled on low level planets? What's the use of getting "rewards appropriate to my level" from doing heroics or whatever on a low level planet?

Why don't we just remove leveling up?

With scaling, the level is just an abstract artifact, just because "an RPG needs levels".

But I don't see the point if we get scaled down.

So please, anyone explain to me why we still need levels with scaling.

 

*somethingsomethingRUINPVPSMASHsomethingsomething*

[Tahra]

No, you can choose to not do it. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying "go run that content in a group right now!". Also no ones rewards are removed, if you had done it before you get to keep those rewards.

 

For some heroics, sure. But not EVERY SINGLE PLANET pre 60 (including daily quests). This change, if not optional, will ruin my WHOLE experience of all of that content. That is just not acceptable.

 

Why should they be able to go back and do group content in god mode and get rewarded for it? It's god mode ... no one should be rewarded for anything god mode related.

 

It's of no concern to you how anyone does their content and certainly not up to you to decide if that's worth a reward or not (the only exception to this would be cheating/hacking/misuse of glitches).

[Faelandaea]

I am still amazed that people somehow think that ANY change in an MMO will make groups go away. It is an MMO - groups will ALWAYS be there and you guys will ALWAYS have other people who want to team with you and do content.

[hanebuch]

Can anyone explain to me what the point of levels is if I get downscaled on low level planets? What's the use of getting "rewards appropriate to my level" from doing heroics or whatever on a low level planet?

Why don't we just remove leveling up?

With scaling, the level is just an abstract artifact, just because "an RPG needs levels".

But I don't see the point if we get scaled down.

So please, anyone explain to me why we still need levels with scaling.

 

If the rumors are true, we will still have levels because it's easier to add level scaling instead of changing the whole system to a non level based.

The game was designed with levels in mind, it was the intended behaviour that you only can do planets in your level range and that if you over level content, it becomes easier and you can do most group content alone.

But the design philosophy of a game especially a mmo can change, because the developers/producers etc. change or they see things they don't like.

[Max_Killjoy]

I am still amazed that people somehow think that ANY change in an MMO will make groups go away. It is an MMO - groups will ALWAYS be there and you guys will ALWAYS have other people who want to team with you and do content.

 

So what?