Do any players consider the Empire to be the good guys? Spoilers welcome.

[hansumlazurwolf]

And being poor in Republic is arguably the same as being slave.

 

This was another point that I never got around to bringing up. The concept is called "economic slavery" or "wage slavery." People end up stuck in a socioeconomic situation where they make only or almost only subsistence wages, ie the minimum amount of wealth required to survive, with no prospect of improvement. People refer to it as slavery because although their is no legal owning per se, the person in question lacks any social mobility and the freedom to make their own choices, being dependent on what little they make to survive.

[tomkyselk]

Nobody is good, both factions are heavily grey.

 

Yes, Republic stands for freedom and democracy, but that resuluts in huge cluster****. Hell, look how great American "democracy" works right now! And being poor in Republic is arguably the same as being slave. And god save you to be alien in Republic - equals my ***

 

Empire is much more functional and effective. Those who deserve power will get it, others stay serving. Everybody is in his place, in theory. Even supposed "racism" gets out of the way the moment alien proves he deserves his position. In practice it's all ****ed up by chaotic stupid sith, who hold power by virtue of being force users.

 

TBH, if talking about middle-class citisen, i would chose to live in Empire. Guess post-soviet legacy speeks here for me

 

Nicely put. I'm glad I'm not the only one who would choose Empire. Interesting, that we both are from post-communist country

[SithKoriandr]

Nicely put. I'm glad I'm not the only one who would choose Empire. Interesting, that we both are from post-communist country

 

Notice you both said middle class int he Empire. When most are low class int he Empire.

[Joachimthbear]

This was another point that I never got around to bringing up. The concept is called "economic slavery" or "wage slavery." People end up stuck in a socioeconomic situation where they make only or almost only subsistence wages, ie the minimum amount of wealth required to survive, with no prospect of improvement. People refer to it as slavery because although their is no legal owning per se, the person in question lacks any social mobility and the freedom to make their own choices, being dependent on what little they make to survive.

If - and I repeat, if - the only difference between being poor in the Republic and being a slave in the Empire is that the latter have to wear a shock collar so that their overseers can torture them for working too slowly, then I think I know which one I'd choose.

[Aeneas_Falco]

This was another point that I never got around to bringing up. The concept is called "economic slavery" or "wage slavery." People end up stuck in a socioeconomic situation where they make only or almost only subsistence wages, ie the minimum amount of wealth required to survive, with no prospect of improvement. People refer to it as slavery because although their is no legal owning per se, the person in question lacks any social mobility and the freedom to make their own choices, being dependent on what little they make to survive.

 

That is still better than actual slavery however, no matter how you look at it. Slaves are considered property, and their masters can do with them as they please. The working poor can't be physically abused or raped by their employers.

 

That sort of gets back to my earlier point about any of the Republic's problems being worse in the Empire.

[Shayddow]

<<The working poor can't be physically abused or raped by their employers.>>

 

unless.... they work for Czerka.....

[Spetulhu]

Slaves are considered property, and their masters can do with them as they please. The working poor can't be physically abused or raped by their employers.

 

Correction: it would be illegal to abuse your poor workers but for that to mean anything someone would have to care enough to actually start an investigation. There's plenty of places today where poor workers are treated like slaves - or even worse since you at least paid something to buy that slave.

 

And ofc, in order to claim your rights you have to a) know you have rights and b) have access to authorities that care about your rights. I particularly like the story a Finnish officer told about riding home from service in southern Russia in the later half of the 19th century. He stopped for the night at some noble's mansion and was invited to the card game that was in progress. The noble was losing heavily and for his last bet with the officer put up the servant girl that had been bringing in drinks and food, and promptly lost again. The officer thought it a tasteless joke that would be forgotten in the morning seeing how slavery had already been abolished in Russia, but the girl was waiting when he prepared to leave next morning. The noble WAS the local law, and few of the people on his land ever earned enough to leave - they knew of nothing else than taking orders from the master. Even if the girl had known she could refuse no one would have been punished except her and her family.

[Joachimthbear]

<<One difference is that if you're murdered by a gangster in the Republic, that's a crime and the security forces will at least try to punish the offender>>

 

You're still dead. Dead is dead.

 

<<The working poor can't be physically abused or raped by their employers.>>

 

unless.... they work for Czerka.....

So as far as you're concerned, if something happens illegally within a state, that's exactly the same as the state endorsing it?

 

...southern Russia in the later half of the 19th century...

This I can absolutely believe. If I remember my history correctly then Russia in that era had only recently abolished serfdom; people were very used to the idea that a landowner also owned the peasants living on the land.

 

The Galactic Republic is not 19th century Russia. The scenario you describe is very likely in the Empire, though.

[tomkyselk]

Notice you both said middle class int he Empire. When most are low class int he Empire.

And in Republic too. Because both must have large low class workers base to work, and then it´s same, no matter on which side of barricade you are. Being low class in Empire/Republic is same. Except in Empire there is working class and slave. Either you are working class (but not slave, you do get paid, etc...), you work hard, earn some money, and so forth for entire life. Or you are unlucky one to be slave ((and it would be really nice to see, how much slaves there are in Empire and why they became them-because apart from Kaas city, we don´t see any Imperial city- not counting Ziost, because we don ´t know how population looked like there before Emperor went there to have lunch. And we only see slaves near that statue/or runaway slaves. It´s not like there are slaves all around Kaas City, so we can guess, that most people there are not slaves)) and you toil in bad conditions until you die, or you are worker in Republic, you work hard, earn some money, and so forth for entire life.

Aint´t it amazing, how we compare social systems of two fictional states in fictional universe, without knowing any stuff like average salary, taxes, health insurances etc... ?:D:D:D

[Joachimthbear]

Aint´t it amazing, how we compare social systems of two fictional states in fictional universe, without knowing any stuff like average salary, taxes, health insurances etc... ?:D:D:D

A very good point. This is especially difficult because we do know that in the Star Wars universe, a lot of jobs can be done by droids. If automation on that scale became possible in the real world it would transform our economy beyond recognition. Whether for the better or worse is a huge question by itself - it might lead to a utopia where everyone has a fulfilling, non-menial job, or to a complete disaster where nobody can get a job at all. So any assumptions about how Star Wars economies work are indeed purely guesses.

 

Thing is, we have to make some assumptions about the Republic's economy to conclude that any number of its people are living in slavery-like conditions. We don't have to assume anything to conclude the same about the Empire because the Empire proudly practices slavery.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Joachimthbear

[tomkyselk]

A very good point. This is especially difficult because we do know that in the Star Wars universe, a lot of jobs can be done by droids. If automation on that scale became possible in the real world it would transform our economy beyond recognition. Whether for the better or worse is a huge question by itself - it might lead to a utopia where everyone has a fulfilling, non-menial job, or to a complete disaster where nobody can get a job at all. So any assumptions about how Star Wars economies work are indeed purely guesses.

 

Thing is, we have to make some assumptions about the Republic's economy to conclude that any number of its people are living in slavery-like conditions. We don't have to assume anything to conclude the same about the Empire because the Empire proudly practices slavery.

Also Coruscant, "below" surface, can be seen in AotC, in Clone Wars and is described in many EU books, so we can make some assumption based on that. Also in KotOR 1, we can see Taris undercity (before Malak had fun with Taris) and we can see in how bad conditions people live in there. And Taris was wealthy Republic world. But point is, we know enough from cannon and EU to at least make some assumptions.

On the other hand, Dromund Kaas appears only in ToR game and in one (I believe) Fate of the Jedi (after Yuzhaan Vong war) book. And there it´s only Dark Temple and only briefly. And we have seen no other planets in Empire to make assumptions based on them.

[SithKoriandr]

Anyone who doesn't think the Empire is evil, hasn't played the Agent storyline.

 

Look at that ending...

 

 

Give it to Republic is LS! Give it to the Empire is DS! Keep it is Neutral!

 

 

All right there to tell you who is good and who is evil.

Edited September 25, 2015 by SithKoriandr

[Lucianthisis]

Having been born and raised in the Western world of upper-middle class parents I find the that the Republic represents the absolute worst form of a republic. It is corrupt, lacking a strong central government, hypocritical, and certain of its own self-righteousness. The Empire is an oligarchy and a meritocracy, it doesn't matter who your parents are if you have the force. Now saying that the force is your measurement isn't fair might be true but anything that is decided by ability is fair, there will always be those who have more and those who have less, at least this ability has direct and measurable impact upon the world.

Between the two I would choose the Empire, for all it's flaws it is upfront and honest about the system whereas the Republic tries to pretend that it and it's guardians (the Jedi) are fair and just. During the Mandalorian war the Jedi Council refused to get involved no one is sure why aren't they supposed to protect worlds from conquerors? During the first war with the Sith they razed Korriban with who knows how many children on it that they could have tried to "redeem". It is the hypocrisy of both the Jedi and the Republic that offends me. Evil is not just doing wrong it is also ignoring the wrongs of others and saying you are good because you don't personally do it in fact it is worse, at least the Empire acknowledges its acts the Republic pretends they're atrocities didn't happen.

[Chrisweaver]

Having been born and raised in the Western world of upper-middle class parents I find the that the Republic represents the absolute worst form of a republic. It is corrupt, lacking a strong central government, hypocritical, and certain of its own self-righteousness. The Empire is an oligarchy and a meritocracy, it doesn't matter who your parents are if you have the force. Now saying that the force is your measurement isn't fair might be true but anything that is decided by ability is fair, there will always be those who have more and those who have less, at least this ability has direct and measurable impact upon the world.

Between the two I would choose the Empire, for all it's flaws it is upfront and honest about the system whereas the Republic tries to pretend that it and it's guardians (the Jedi) are fair and just. During the Mandalorian war the Jedi Council refused to get involved no one is sure why aren't they supposed to protect worlds from conquerors? During the first war with the Sith they razed Korriban with who knows how many children on it that they could have tried to "redeem". It is the hypocrisy of both the Jedi and the Republic that offends me. Evil is not just doing wrong it is also ignoring the wrongs of others and saying you are good because you don't personally do it in fact it is worse, at least the Empire acknowledges its acts the Republic pretends they're atrocities didn't happen.

 

Yeeeeeah. FOR THE EMPIRE!

[SaveTheMonkeys]

During the Mandalorian war the Jedi Council refused to get involved no one is sure why aren't they supposed to protect worlds from conquerors?

 

Just in response to this. There was a reason why, it was just a very arguable one: It had only been 20-odd years since the war with Exar-Kun. They knew that war and conflict had a tendency to turn Jedi to the dark side, and that the Sith had to be their primary concern.

 

I still think the pro-empire people are conveniently ignoring the whole slavery thing, or comparing it to 'wage slavery' in the Republic. "Those guys do bad stuff too!" isn't a legitimate defence IMO.

[SithKoriandr]

Just in response to this. There was a reason why, it was just a very arguable one: It had only been 20-odd years since the war with Exar-Kun. They knew that war and conflict had a tendency to turn Jedi to the dark side, and that the Sith had to be their primary concern.

 

I still think the pro-empire people are conveniently ignoring the whole slavery thing, or comparing it to 'wage slavery' in the Republic. "Those guys do bad stuff too!" isn't a legitimate defence IMO.

 

It's not. Though the ability arguement is, but sadly, most posters forget that in such a society they'd most likely be the slaves without force ability, bottom of the barrel, killed at the whim of a Sith. Or one of the grunts, barely above the slaves.

 

They do seem to like to forget the whole slave system though

 

Though I don't recall anything saying the Jedi must protect people, though one would tend to think, if they are good and have the power to save people, then LS would be to do so. However, one would also think, the only way to save some people is to wipe out the evil people.

 

Which is where the Jedi have conflict. Wipe out the Sith is a good idea. But then if you leave any of the young alive, you're just looking for one to grow up and start a new Empire as revenge. So to really do the good thing to help people, is to kill them all, leave none standing, but then you'll have some bemoaning that fact.

 

Kophe (sp?) on the Agent storyline was a good example imo of a Jedi Knight who knew, one can't really help where you believe help is needed and still follow the code strictly. Though I bet he tried

[Rol_Khavos]

Warning: Long post ahead. Skip to the end if you want a simple one-paragraph summation.

 

 

 

The issues involved in this are actually partly a breakdown on the part of the Devs, and partly the result of Lucasfilm having controlling authority in how the Empire and Republic are realized in the game.

 

The simplification that the Republic was good and the Empire evil was something I believe was insisted on by Lucas, and probably intended to keep the game understandable to the wider playerbase who didn't want to think about the worlds they were playing in, but just have simple and established 'good guys' and 'bad guys' so they could get on with shooting things. At the same time, the premise by the Devs before the game was opened that the Empire was a meritocracy where anyone could earn a place if their performance was sufficient to the task was dropped in favor of playing the Sith as all childish egoists drunk on their power, making very obvious mistakes in both tactics and their dealings with their people, and the Empire as a place of incompetent, self-seeking officials ready to stab each other in the back to step up the promotion ladder.

 

This all ruined what should have been a much more interesting situation, and one that actually would have been closer to both common sense and the accepted situation within the Star Wars universe. The simple truth is that no one will support a system if it doesn't have something worth their support, and no government can endure or even function without the support of its people. Force only works in the short-term, and only as long as you can watch everyone. For any State to work well enough to function, the people have to believe in it and accept it for their own reasons. The Republic ultimately fell in the movies because the people -wanted- it to fall and voted it into the Empire. The Jedi Order ultimately fell because its own members no longer believed in keeping their own codes, which opened one critical Jedi to doubt and conviction that the Order was wrong.

 

In truth, the Empire and Republic, along with the Jedi and the Sith, represent opposing viewpoints that can each be good or evil.

 

The Republic represents complete freedom, the supreme right of the individual to do as they please, and the free acquisition of wealth to whatever an individual can achieve. Individual worlds are sovereign, with the Republic being required to be given permission to intervene in their affairs, and neighboring worlds to one in distress being completely free to help or ignore the plight of that world as they please (hense the situation of Naboo many centuries from the timeline of the game). The Republic is a confederacy where everyone is expected to respect the right of the individual over the whole, and planets that don't like what the Republic directs them to do can simply succeed and no longer have to accept those directives.

 

The Empire represents complete order, the supreme right of the State to govern the individual and their actions, and the central control and distribution of resources to all of its citizens. Individual worlds are subservient to the Empire as a whole, and what affects one world affects all. An Imperial world in distress is one all of its neighbors -must- aid, because the needs of the Empire overrule their own desires, and the Empire will enforce this cooperation if it is not voluntarily forthcoming because to do otherwise harms the Empire as a whole. Worlds are not free to choose if they want to follow Imperial rule or not...they will follow all Imperial laws and directives or answer for their disregard of their pledges of loyalty. Citizens likewise are expected to sacrifice their own desires and profit for the good of the Empire.

 

The Sith represent complete freedom of action and emotion, the desire of the individual over the constraints of law and order. To a Sith, if one is not controlled, then one can do as one pleases to the limit of their power and without concern for being held to account to anyone but themselves. If one is controlled, then it is a matter to either accept that control willingly as an individual choice, or plot to eventually escape that control.

 

The Jedi represent selfless service and the submission of the individual and their emotions to the needs of others. Law and order are of paramount importance to a Jedi, both without and within themselves, and emotion is something to be suppressed or even removed entirely. A Jedi willingly accepts their place as servants of the Force and others around them, and never seeks to leave that service because that is what they believe is their place. To a Jedi, one is always accountable to those around them, and action is never to be taken for the benefit of themselves.

 

Because of these extreme positions, direct conflict is all but inevitable. And, each has the openings to allow corruption and those with only base interests and motivations to use them as tools of their ambitions. Republic forces that wipe out entire worlds with the express purpose of ensuring not a single man, woman, or child escapes (the attack that ended the Great Hyperspace War is one such example), Imperial forces that slaughter helpless populations in order to remove an uprising, Jedi who believe only they have the wisdom and power to save the galaxy and will stop at nothing to obtain it for the good of all, Sith who plot intricate intrigues that cost countless innocent lives merely for some amusement....all are just examples of some ways evil finds a home in all of them.

 

So, with all that in mind, the question the OP asked is not as simple as it seems.

 

Yes, there are those who play Imperial characters who -do- consider the Empire the 'good guys', the ideal of ordered society where every world stands with all of those of its nation, and where every citizen is provided according to their contribution to the Empire. Where selfless service is the ideal, where the law on Dromund Kaas is the same law as on Ilum, and where a world in danger knows the entire Empire will come to its aid. None of which is true of the Republic.

 

If this seems at odds with what you think the Empire is, then all I can say is that is the most complete proof of just how badly the Devs and Lucasfilm crippled what the Empire was supposed to be in the name of making it comfortable for simplistic gamers and children to understand. No one would support the Empire if it were only as they depict it, and there is no way it could function if the only thing holding every....single....Imperial....citizen....on... every...planet....in...the...galaxy...to their duty was fear. Only dedication allows an Empire to function, and the only hint of that dedication is buried to almost unnoticeable levels in the Agent storyline. This despite the very defining text of the Agent's class description including the line 'These are the people the Agent risks everything to protect'. Not the Jedi, nor the Trooper, nor the Smuggler include any mention of sacrificing to protect others....only the -Imperial- Agent.

 

As a last consideration, note that, in fact, the ideals of the Empire and Jedi actually match themselves fairly well, and the Sith and Republic also share more values than the organizations they are supposedly attached to. An Imperial Officer and Jedi both would see no problems sacrificing themselves for the sake of their organizations, while a Republic Senator and Sith would both consider the idea ridiculous. Also, while the Jedi homeworld is a lush world of life as is the capitol of the Empire, both the Sith homeworld and the capitol of the Republic are worlds scoured of life and rendered barren by the very powers that dominate them. One has to wonder what that says about each.

 

tldr: The Empire can very well be seen as the 'good guys' and for good reasons. However, these reasons are only apparent if one wants to look beyond the surface for them. The Republic, in fact, has quite a bit that suggests it might be the 'bad guys' in certain lights. The Devs and Lucasfilm, however, want the game as simple as possible and have ignored these in favor of only portraying an uncomplicated children's idea of 'good Republic/bad Empire'.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Rol_Khavos
Clarification of one line, correction in spelling on another.

[SelinaH]

I still think the pro-empire people are conveniently ignoring the whole slavery thing, or comparing it to 'wage slavery' in the Republic. "Those guys do bad stuff too!" isn't a legitimate defence IMO.

In the same vein, minimizing the extent of corruption and other such issues in the Republic because "The other guys are so much worse!" won't fly, either.

[Joachimthbear]

Now saying that the force is your measurement isn't fair might be true but anything that is decided by ability is fair, there will always be those who have more and those who have less, at least this ability has direct and measurable impact upon the world.

We don't know exactly what proportion of people are Force sensitive, but it is a small number. It is also apparently a genetic propensity; the majority of Sith belong to old, long-established families that are the only reason any Sith "purebloods" are left. You're talking about a "meritocracy" where the only possible merit is an accident of birth. The Force has many uses, but it doesn't make you a good administrator, a good strategist, a good scientist, a good leader.

 

The Empire is ruled by a warrior caste almost entirely drawn from a few ancient families and who are addressed by the lower castes as "my Lord". Does this remind you of anything? Does it sound like meritocracy in action?

 

Edit:

The Empire represents complete order, the supreme right of the State to govern the individual and their actions, and the central control and distribution of resources to all of its citizens.

If that was the intention, then the Empire could never have been the Sith Empire. The Sith code ends: "through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me." Free me from what? There's an implicit understanding that any limitations on you, any rules that hold you back, are equivalent to slavery. That's why the Empire is ok with slavery in general: because if you're not "strong" enough to break free, you are already a slave, and you may as well be treated like it.

 

The Empire as it is represents the outcome of Sith philosophy as the Sith themselves have always been seen to interpret it: absolute freedom for the privileged few, total control for everyone else. They could be "totally free" in the Republic, where (as you say) freedom is the default - but they don't see it that way. If they couldn't live under the restrictions of Republic law, they could never live under the even more demanding restrictions of Imperial law.

 

So they don't. They built an Empire where they are exempt from the laws governing the masses. That represents capricious tyranny, not an ideology of order or even the rule of law.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Joachimthbear

[SithKoriandr]

Warning: Long post ahead. Skip to the end if you want a simple one-paragraph summation.

 

 

 

 

The issues involved in this are actually partly a breakdown on the part of the Devs, and partly the result of Lucasfilm having controlling authority in how the Empire and Republic are realized in the game.

 

The simplification that the Republic was good and the Empire evil was something I believe was insisted on by Lucas, and probably intended to keep the game understandable to the wider playerbase who didn't want to think about the worlds they were playing in, but just have simple and established 'good guys' and 'bad guys' so they could get on with shooting things. At the same time, the premise by the Devs before the game was opened that the Empire was a meritocracy where anyone could earn a place if their performance was sufficient to the task was dropped in favor of playing the Sith as all childish egoists drunk on their power, making very obvious mistakes in both tactics and their dealings with their people, and the Empire as a place of incompetent, self-seeking officials ready to stab each other in the back to step up the promotion ladder.

 

This all ruined what should have been a much more interesting situation, and one that actually would have been closer to both common sense and the accepted situation within the Star Wars universe. The simple truth is that no one will support a system if it doesn't have something worth their support, and no government can endure or even function without the support of its people. Force only works in the short-term, and only as long as you can watch everyone. For any State to work well enough to function, the people have to believe in it and accept it for their own reasons. The Republic ultimately fell in the movies because the people -wanted- it to fall and voted it into the Empire. The Jedi Order ultimately fell because its own members no longer believed in keeping their own codes, which opened one critical Jedi to doubt and conviction that the Order was wrong.

 

In truth, the Empire and Republic, along with the Jedi and the Sith, represent opposing viewpoints that can each be good or evil.

 

The Republic represents complete freedom, the supreme right of the individual to do as they please, and the free acquisition of wealth to whatever an individual can achieve. Individual worlds are sovereign, with the Republic being required to be given permission to intervene in their affairs, and neighboring worlds to one in distress being completely free to help or ignore the plight of that world as they please (hense the situation of Naboo many centuries from the timeline of the game). The Republic is a confederacy where everyone is expected to respect the right of the individual over the whole, and planets that don't like what the Republic directs them to do can simply succeed and no longer have to accept those directives.

 

The Empire represents complete order, the supreme right of the State to govern the individual and their actions, and the central control and distribution of resources to all of its citizens. Individual worlds are subservient to the Empire as a whole, and what affects one world affects all. An Imperial world in distress is one all of its neighbors -must- aid, because the needs of the Empire overrule their own desires, and the Empire will enforce this cooperation if it is not voluntarily forthcoming because to do otherwise harms the Empire as a whole. Worlds are not free to choose if they want to follow Imperial rule or not...they will follow all Imperial laws and directives or answer for their disregard of their pledges of loyalty. Citizens likewise are expected to sacrifice their own desires and profit for the good of the Empire.

 

The Sith represent complete freedom of action and emotion, the desire of the individual over the constraints of law and order. To a Sith, if one is not controlled, then one can do as one pleases to the limit of their power and without concern for being held to account to anyone but themselves. If one is controlled, then it is a matter to either accept that control willingly as an individual choice, or plot to eventually escape that control.

 

The Jedi represent selfless service and the submission of the individual and their emotions to the needs of others. Law and order are of paramount importance to a Jedi, both without and within themselves, and emotion is something to be suppressed or even removed entirely. A Jedi willingly accepts their place as servants of the Force and others around them, and never seeks to leave that service because that is what they believe is their place. To a Jedi, one is always accountable to those around them, and action is never to be taken for the benefit of themselves.

 

Because of these extreme positions, direct conflict is all but inevitable. And, each has the openings to allow corruption and those with only base interests and motivations to use them as tools of their ambitions. Republic forces that wipe out entire worlds with the express purpose of ensuring not a single man, woman, or child escapes (the attack that ended the Great Hyperspace War is one such example), Imperial forces that slaughter helpless populations in order to remove an uprising, Jedi who believe only they have the wisdom and power to save the galaxy and will stop at nothing to obtain it for the good of all, Sith who plot intricate intrigues that cost countless innocent lives merely for some amusement....all are just examples of some ways evil finds a home in all of them.

 

So, with all that in mind, the question the OP asked is not as simple as it seems.

 

Yes, there are those who play Imperial characters who -do- consider the Empire the 'good guys', the ideal of ordered society where every world stands with all of those of its nation, and where every citizen is provided according to their contribution to the Empire. Where selfless service is the ideal, where the law on Dromund Kaas is the same law as on Ilum, and where a world in danger knows the entire Empire will come to its aid. None of which is true of the Republic.

 

If this seems at odds with what you think the Empire is, then all I can say is that is the most complete proof of just how badly the Devs and Lucasfilm crippled what the Empire was supposed to be in the name of making it comfortable for simplistic gamers and children to understand. No one would support the Empire if it were only as they depict it, and there is no way it could function if the only thing holding every....single....Imperial....citizen....on... every...planet....in...the...galaxy...to their duty was fear. Only dedication allows an Empire to function, and the only hint of that dedication is buried to almost unnoticeable levels in the Agent storyline. This despite the very defining text of the Agent's class description including the line 'These are the people the Agent risks everything to protect'. Not the Jedi, nor the Trooper, nor the Smuggler include any mention of sacrificing to protect others....only the -Imperial- Agent.

 

As a last consideration, note that, in fact, the ideals of the Empire and Jedi actually match themselves fairly well, and the Sith and Republic also share more values than the organizations they are supposedly attached to. An Imperial Officer and Jedi both would see no problems sacrificing themselves for the sake of their organizations, while a Republic Senator and Sith would both consider the idea ridiculous. Also, while the Jedi homeworld is a lush world of life as is the capitol of the Empire, both the Sith homeworld and the capitol of the Republic are worlds scoured of life and rendered barren by the very powers that dominate them. One has to wonder what that says about each.

 

tldr: The Empire can very well be seen as the 'good guys' and for good reasons. However, these reasons are only apparent if one wants to look beyond the surface for them. The Republic, in fact, has quite a bit that suggests it might be the 'bad guys' in certain lights. The Devs and Lucasfilm, however, want the game as simple as possible and have ignored these in favor of only portraying an uncomplicated children's idea of 'good Republic/bad Empire'.

 

 

 

The problem with all this, is just as you state "Lucas decided it was like this, so it's Evil, but really..." that right there. This is how the SW galaxy is setup. Empire is evil. There is no "Well, it would be seen as good in this..." Lucas made the Empire evil. BW may have wanted to turn it shades of grey, but they failed at that, even if the reason they failed was because of Lucas' direction.

 

Also, it's easy to disagree that the Empire can be seen as the good guys, at least my most of the modern day western society. Slavery is bad. No matter if it leads to an organized society, slavery is bad.

 

Yes, people like to throw around terms like "Wage slave" but that is nothing compared to the level of slavery many within the Empire deal with.

 

Not all Sith would be power mad psychopaths in a real functioning society, but in SW that's exactly what happened, and it may change...it does change...by getting rid of the Sith. Lost a bit of the psycho, but still leave it open to a military rule that is more than willing to enslave and kill any who disappoints (look how Vader just helps people get promotions).

 

Another problem with the Empire is their own people are fractured. Running a third Inquisitor through the levels and Moff Pyron (sp?) goes on to say there's a difference between a Sith and an Imperial. So even it's own people (they're all one group) has them fractured.

 

Yes, the Jedi have their downfall, thinking about it, it should show that Yoda may not have been as wise as we were originally lead to believe Now one can say (and posters have) that's just how Lucas wrote it, but then people say, and so it is.

 

Jedi do fight for law and order. This isn't so bad. Even their rules at this time, while misplaced, make sense to a point. They're training themselves to be more powerful, while most seem to have only limited potential, they realize those with higher potential can change the fate of worlds, take control with ease, and even more so, since part of what the order does is train you to become stronger with your abilities.

 

That's all good, but get upset because Aunt May is old and dies of old age and go on a rampage because of it, and everything just went to hell in a hand basket. That goes for anything the Jedi was atteched too. Sith just accept it as part of the natural order. Those who succumb to them, deserve them, those who fail were weak anyways.

 

One might say the Jedi should be trying to just teach them common sense and not to ignore their emotions, but let's be honest, how often does that work out in RL

[tomkyselk]

The problem with all this, is just as you state "Lucas decided it was like this, so it's Evil, but really..." that right there. This is how the SW galaxy is setup. Empire is evil. There is no "Well, it would be seen as good in this..." Lucas made the Empire evil. BW may have wanted to turn it shades of grey, but they failed at that, even if the reason they failed was because of Lucas' direction.

 

Also, it's easy to disagree that the Empire can be seen as the good guys, at least my most of the modern day western society. Slavery is bad. No matter if it leads to an organized society, slavery is bad.

 

Yes, people like to throw around terms like "Wage slave" but that is nothing compared to the level of slavery many within the Empire deal with.

 

Not all Sith would be power mad psychopaths in a real functioning society, but in SW that's exactly what happened, and it may change...it does change...by getting rid of the Sith. Lost a bit of the psycho, but still leave it open to a military rule that is more than willing to enslave and kill any who disappoints (look how Vader just helps people get promotions).

 

Another problem with the Empire is their own people are fractured. Running a third Inquisitor through the levels and Moff Pyron (sp?) goes on to say there's a difference between a Sith and an Imperial. So even it's own people (they're all one group) has them fractured.

 

Yes, the Jedi have their downfall, thinking about it, it should show that Yoda may not have been as wise as we were originally lead to believe Now one can say (and posters have) that's just how Lucas wrote it, but then people say, and so it is.

 

Jedi do fight for law and order. This isn't so bad. Even their rules at this time, while misplaced, make sense to a point. They're training themselves to be more powerful, while most seem to have only limited potential, they realize those with higher potential can change the fate of worlds, take control with ease, and even more so, since part of what the order does is train you to become stronger with your abilities.

 

That's all good, but get upset because Aunt May is old and dies of old age and go on a rampage because of it, and everything just went to hell in a hand basket. That goes for anything the Jedi was atteched too. Sith just accept it as part of the natural order. Those who succumb to them, deserve them, those who fail were weak anyways.

 

One might say the Jedi should be trying to just teach them common sense and not to ignore their emotions, but let's be honest, how often does that work out in RL

Lucas made original "Empire=bad, Rebels=good", because original movies were just space adventure of bunch of heroes, not in-depth study of galactic society. There would never be space for that in three movies. Also, some people just need to see world as two sides of coin good/bad, right/wrong etc... and it would be too hard on their brains, to think, if Rebels are really in right, or if they are just bunch of terrorists, trying to themselves rule galaxy, and just hiding it behind pretty worlds. Plus we have never seen anything but Imperial military (which had to be made stupid, so that Rebels could win), we never see any Imperial world (neither Tatooine, nor Bespin are part of Empire). Only thanks to EU we have some look on Empire, as a state, not just bunch of clowns in white armor.

We have even less (almost none) info on Sith Empire, as a state.

Regarding Sith Empire being designed as "evil". It´s simply because if it was shown as ordered, centrally ruled State, where "needs of many outweigh needs of few, or the one" and meritocracy, opposing corrupted, inefficient Republic (designed as "good"), then people, would could start to consider them "good" (like I do). And we can´t have that, can we? Because Republic must always be good guys, then it is necessary, that Empire are bad guys, (because every hero needs villain) and so devs made Sith bunch of psychopats and Empire is modeled like non-functional society.

 

 

It is same like Clone Wars, when we are auto told Republic=good, CIS=bad, and there is never really said, what led so many systems to join CIS (I believe, that it was mentioned, that it was because of growing centralization and tax increase, but I am not sure). And we have no info, how CIS is ruled, and if their cause could be right. In fact, when you think of it, from ethical standpoint, I deffinetly consider droid army much more ethical, than clone one. Droid army is supreme incarnation of war, without sentient life cost, fought by machines and commanded by sentient beings, it is ideal army. On the other hand, Clone army is, when you think, just wrong. Because clones are sentient beings, and ones, that are bred only for war. They don´t have a choice, if they wish to fight. But they are individuals, it is clearly shown in Clone Wars series (cannon SW). And to me, creating individuals, giving them short life span, so even if they survived war, they wouldnt live too long, and sending them to fight, without choice, with knowledge, that fightning is only think they ever known, and that even after war, there would be no rest from them, thanks to short life, is just wrong.

[Joachimthbear]

Regarding Sith Empire being designed as "evil". It´s simply because if it was shown as ordered, centrally ruled State, where "needs of many outweigh needs of few, or the one" and meritocracy opposing corrupted, inefficient Republic (designed as "good")...

But the Empire and Republic you think they should have designed aren't the one that are in the game. If they were, I'd get what you were saying - not necessarily agree that the Empire are good guys, but agree that what you describe here is at least a reasonable position. It's simply that the story is written differently, and not just for simplistic reasons.

 

The Empire is presented as the natural result of the Sith ideology fully unleashed: a society where anyone unable to claim power deserves to be a slave. You can disagree with the the position of the writers on this point, but that doesn't make the Empire that exists in the story the good guys.

 

In fact, when you think of it, from ethical standpoint, I deffinetly consider droid army much more ethical, than clone one. Droid army is supreme incarnation of war, without sentient life cost, fought by machines and commanded by sentient beings, it is ideal army. On the other hand, Clone army is, when you think, just wrong. Because clones are sentient beings, and ones, that are bred only for war. They don´t have a choice, if they wish to fight. But they are individuals, it is clearly shown in Clone Wars series (cannon SW). And to me, creating individuals, giving them short life span, so even if they survived war, they wouldnt live too long, and sending them to fight, without choice, with knowledge, that fightning is only think they ever known, and that even after war, there would be no rest from them, thanks to short life, is just wrong.

Palpatine created the clones. By the time anyone but him knew about it, they already existed. You can only hold the Republic responsible for agreeing to send them into battle - and what else would you do with them at that point? An army of fully-developed adults with short lifespans who know nothing but how to obey and fight? Imprison them and leave them to rot?

 

The whole of the Clone Wars were orchestrated by Palpatine. He ran both sides. All those clones who were killed by droids died because Palpatine wanted to put on a good show for the galaxy. Every single death in that conflict is on him.

[Shayddow]

<<the Clone Wars were orchestrated by Palpatine. He ran both sides. All those clones who were killed by droids died because Palpatine wanted to put on a good show for the galaxy. Every single death in that conflict is on him>>

 

actually, see Darth Plagueis by James Luceno, chapter 17: Darth Plagueis managed to manipulate Jedi Sifo-Dyas into ordering the clone army to be "made" by the people of Kamino - in order to avoid turning the Jedi into an army <see the Ruusan reformation>. So it was Plagueis behind it originally, not Palpatine.

[tomkyselk]

 

Palpatine created the clones. By the time anyone but him knew about it, they already existed. You can only hold the Republic responsible for agreeing to send them into battle - and what else would you do with them at that point? An army of fully-developed adults with short lifespans who know nothing but how to obey and fight? Imprison them and leave them to rot?

 

The whole of the Clone Wars were orchestrated by Palpatine. He ran both sides. All those clones who were killed by droids died because Palpatine wanted to put on a good show for the galaxy. Every single death in that conflict is on him.

I of course know, that Palpatine orchestrated it all And I agree, that Republic had to use Clones, I´m only saying, that from ethical standpoint, droid army is better than clone one. But at least they could try using them more responsibly. On Geonosis they just march in tight ranks like in some Napoleonic wars and die by hunderds. And in many Clone Wars episodes, we can see them often marching through middle of corridor, without covering. Not to mention of course, lack of any grenades, grenade launchers, machine guns, missile launchers, or any other infantry support weapons. But this is problem of whole SW, so I guess I cant dwell on it.

[SithKoriandr]

I of course know, that Palpatine orchestrated it all And I agree, that Republic had to use Clones, I´m only saying, that from ethical standpoint, droid army is better than clone one. But at least they could try using them more responsibly. On Geonosis they just march in tight ranks like in some Napoleonic wars and die by hunderds. And in many Clone Wars episodes, we can see them often marching through middle of corridor, without covering. Not to mention of course, lack of any grenades, grenade launchers, machine guns, missile launchers, or any other infantry support weapons. But this is problem of whole SW, so I guess I cant dwell on it.

 

Well, that was the problem with warfare on earth for centuries! It took American's not fighting "the proper way" to really change the way modern warfare was done.

 

Seeing as this is a galaxy far far away, there is nothing say they don't do the war games the same way.