Game Update 4.0 Class Changes: Bounty Hunter + Trooper

[idnewton]

Translocate/Transpose??? What is this, are we suddenly in the Star Trek universe? Funny cause I don't remember Spock ever using a light saber or Vader telling Scotty to beam him to Endor.

 

They aren't calling it a portable trans-warp beaming device, though. Besides, 'Translocator' is much more UT3-ish than Star Trek-ish. (Translocator)

[TsrRosamilia]

Mercs will still suck.

[Tatanka]

You never found/used the rakata teleporters on Belsavis or Section X?

 

PS: Not to mention the Gree event with the base teleporter and the teleporter which gets you into the ship. I want to say that you're trolling, but if so, you're terrible, since it would thus be implying that it does align with the lore, but BW never said differently so you'd essentially be taking an opposing position in an argument that doesn't exist

I believe you missed the important part of my statement... man sized. Perhaps I should have explicitly said man portable.

 

Yes, the gree and rakata have teleporters, but they are large systems based on fixed hardware.

[idnewton]

I believe you missed the important part of my statement... man sized. Perhaps I should have explicitly said man portable.

 

Yes, the gree and rakata have teleporters, but they are large systems based on fixed hardware.

 

Because it can mean two different things. Technology the size of a man, or able to teleport objects the size of a man.

[TUXs]

Mercs will still suck.

Bottom line right there. Another worthless, half ***ed DCD button to pop - on to of the other 7 half ***ed ones we already need to press.

[ZeroPlus]

It would be nice if we could get some Developer (*not* Community Manager) feedback on the questions raised in this thread.

 

Especially regarding Storm/Jet Charge and whether Tanks are really losing this ability until level 61.

[Transcendent]

It would be nice if we could get some Developer (*not* Community Manager) feedback on the questions raised in this thread.

 

It would be nice to get some insight from the developers as to why they feel the need to put this class in a worse position with straight out nerfs by giving them the one thing they've asked for, for years, and then making that ability pretty useless by tying a utility point to it, as well as straight out gimping mobility in 4.0 (while increasing all the other classes mobility). Can they not see that specifically Merc / Mandos are not in a good place in any form of ranked PvP right now?

 

As well as what they are doing to PT tanks specifically (that also makes zero sense).

 

Perhaps if they don't feel like facing the usual more questions than answers that they give they'd likely get for posting about what can only be considered nonsensical changes, how about a simple blog™ to explain it to us, without a feedback topic attached?

 

Also, perhaps they may wish to interpret the metrics correctly, or have these combat changes go to open PTS prior to implementing them?

[TUXs]

It would be nice to get some insight from the developers as to why they feel the need to put this class in a worse position with straight out nerfs by giving them the one thing they've asked for, for years, and then making that ability pretty useless by tying a utility point to it, as well as straight out gimping mobility in 4.0 (while increasing all the other classes mobility). Can they not see that specifically Merc / Mandos are not in a good place in any form of ranked PvP right now?

 

As well as what they are doing to PT tanks specifically (that also makes zero sense).

 

Perhaps if they don't feel like facing the usual more questions than answers that they give they'd likely get for posting about what can only be considered nonsensical changes, how about a simple blog™ to explain it to us, without a feedback topic attached?

 

Also, perhaps they may wish to interpret the metrics correctly, or have these combat changes go to open PTS prior to implementing them?

It's perfectly clear from this change that they have no clue what they're doing with merc/mando. The nerf to HO/HtL is insane. As you pointed out, tying this new skill to a utility point is utter foolishness...even their metrics can't be this skewed...just look at the freaking ranked classes and I challenge them to explain (logically) why this is all they think we needed...it's so absurd that it's comical...but it's also frustrating as hell because I play this freaking class and I PvP a lot on him...GRRRR!!!

[Jedi_riches]

It's perfectly clear from this change that they have no clue what they're doing with merc/mando. The nerf to HO/HtL is insane. As you pointed out, tying this new skill to a utility point is utter foolishness...even their metrics can't be this skewed...just look at the freaking ranked classes and I challenge them to explain (logically) why this is all they think we needed...it's so absurd that it's comical...but it's also frustrating as hell because I play this freaking class and I PvP a lot on him...GRRRR!!!

 

Ironically they probably nerfed HO/HtL because of giving all Powertechs/Vanguards Jet charge/storm they probably feel as this would make these A/C's OP but it has the unfortunate effect of nerfing Mercs/mandos too, if this is the case then you could either:-

 

1) undo the change and keep jet charge/storm for tanks at level 10

2) include a passive learned from your trainer for mercs/mandos that will bring HO/HtL back to where it was under 3.0 that way the nerf only affects Powertechs/Vanguards.

[Transcendent]

It's perfectly clear from this change that they have no clue what they're doing with merc/mando. The nerf to HO/HtL is insane. As you pointed out, tying this new skill to a utility point is utter foolishness...even their metrics can't be this skewed.

 

I don't know what to say. Pretty perplexing to watch your favourite class being decimated when it was already in a poor position in PvP already.

 

I'm doubtful they're actually using metrics at this point in time, either that or all they're doing is looking at k/d ratios and not understanding the complexity of the threads that tie all of the abilities for all of the classes together, and their counters, while allowing for passive DR to be factored in along with burst potential in BiS PvP gear and the many many other factors involved in balancing classes correctly. Balancing seems slightly beyond their capabilities, and I don't mean to offend them by that.

 

It's definitely a deliberate move to castrate the AC further, that much is certain, but their motivations elude me.

[TUXs]

6 mando/mercs in the top 300...SIX!!! Highest rank is 49...

 

Seriously Bioware...what are you thinking?

[realleaftea]

1. Why storm level 61? Makes 0 sense, thats like changing Sage aoe to level 61
   
2. What replaces Shield Specialist level 10 seeing as storm is now an acquired ability?
   
3. Why are we upscaling every discipline?
   
4. Why only 1 new skill for every advanced class? That's technically less class growth/content than 3.0
   
5. What happens to the old utilities? Do we have now 8 maximum utilities to choose from and still only 7 points?
   
6. No passive discipline talents learned from 61 to 65? What is this
   

Used this because it sums up a few points spreaded over all other replies.

 

1) I will address this later (indirectly)

2) No clue, but Static Surge depends on Storm, so I guess there will be more to come

3) To avoid power creep. 100% is a hard limit for most things (defense, etc.), so you can't expect to get better by 2% every time.

4) I guess, because they concentrated more on content, less on power creep, PvP or fancy new mechanics

5) Yes, it seems you still have 7 points in total, but 8 utilies per tier. Not a tragedy, just more things to choose from.

6) There have been levels without significant boni beforel lvl50. Who knows, maybe some skills get a higher level cap

 

It's perfectly clear from this change that they have no clue what they're doing with merc/mando. The nerf to HO/HtL is insane.

I personally agree with BioWare on that point that HtL/HO is vastly broken.

Now let's see who throws the first stone at me!!!

 

The reason why I believe this is not because of the speed bonus of HtL/HO, but the often ignored immunity vs. slow. Against melee classes, even a small speed advantage (note: not speed bonus) will give you a clear edge.

 

So let's compare a Jedi Knight with a Mercenary // Power Tech:

Mercs can use Concussion Charge, Smeltering Heat, Pinning Fire or Kolto Residue to slow an enemy; PTs simply use Supressive Tools. The Jedi Knight has Freezing Force & Purifying Sweep to achieve something similar. But what happens if they slow each other??? The Mercs & PT simply press for HO/HtL, get immune to the slow and can easily get away. Good game!!!

And unlike PTs, the 15% speed bonus isn't a utility, but solely limited to Vigilance's Shien Form, So a PT vs. a non-vigilance Knight is permanently faster, probably even backwards!

 

What else does the Jedi have? - A single heroic tier utility that adds a speed bonus to the 60s cooldown Enure. Whoohoo!

So he's dependant on another utility point that give Force Leap 4s immunity to slow. And let's not forget: Almost every Jedi skill is limited to 4m range. How many melee attacks does a Merc or PT have? One? Two?

 

So to sum it up:

A Jedi Knight must use Force Leap to negate his very inherent range disadvantage. It's not a choice! He must then make sure to stay at 4m range or he's screwed and will be kited. But how to achieve that? Slowing the enemy? Na... he's immune. Popping Enure... well, HtL/HO will grant a speed bonus as well and after 4s, you will be slowed and he gets away.

 

And now, when the Commandos finally gets the ecape skill they were asking for, players keep whining because their precious HtL/HO gets nerfed to a 45s cooldown, which is still less than the CD of Enure!! Even more, they complain that they have to spend a heroic tier utility? Well, welcome to the club!

 

So how will it look with 4.0?

The Jedi uses Force Leap, which will be answered with a 20m backwards thrust. The Jedi responds with the new 20m Blade Blitz and both are at 4m range. And then? It's still the slow on both sides, but it's a 60s Enure vs. a 45s HtL/HO where only one grants an immunity to slow as well. What a nightmare for mercs!

 

So as a Jedi Knight, I appreciate every single second of cooldown that is added to HtL/HO.

______________________________________

 

That brings me to the essential point:

 

See, range differences aren't bad per se!!! It's not the range that hurts! It's the fact that you can do anything useful while you're not in range!

 

See, if you could respond to attack that is made against you with a self-heal usable on the run, who cares about range? And it works the same, if you could activate a 0.0s cooldown skill that absorbs the damage of the next direct attack... just like a fully controllable Blaster Reflection.

 

So in my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes BioWare made, was to make the Combat Medic a Commando (screw that name!). Because let's see it this way:

 

There are three different ways to migate damage:

 

Defensive focus:

• Dodging, blocking, absorbing or reducing damage
  
• Recovering from the damage (heal)
  
• Preventing the opponent from damaging you (interrupt, stun, sleep, etc., but also range)
  

 

All with their own advantages and disadvantages. Preventing damage f.e. usually doesn't require you to waste GCDs, but you have no control over it and you'll stay even with some moments to breath. Heals are the opposite. You must choose between heals and normal attacks, but you can fully control the effort. So unlike you receive deadly damage, a healer might even survive longer than a tank.

 

Offensive focus:

• Dealing outright more damage or bypass opposing defenses
  
• Dealing damage over time or to weaken an enemy
  
• Dealing damage to more targets
  

 

There you go... you would have two very distinct class choices. Differentiated not by range (which isn't the case with PTs anyways), but a functional decision => Do you seek to kill or to control?

 

And you would have the six different specializations. And of course, this doesn't mean that things couldn't overlap. Just like all the Commandos now have heals and all the classes have interrupts, AoE and in most cases DoTs,only the main focus would be different.

 

And just in case you believe that healers should have a 30m range.... no, that's just for convenience. This way, healers can stay put and BioWare can create overly hard PvE Bosses. But it's neither a necessity, nor a good design.

 

In PvE, because medics are reduced to "heal slaves" (doing nothing else), simply because the tank has no control over the amount of effort he wants to put into his defense (everything's a passive).

 

In PvP, because if there are two fronts filled with ranged classes, shooting at each other over 30m distance, the healers stand another 30m behind them. So even if a few melees would disturb this order and charge the enemy position, they'll find themself surrounded by enemies and pushed around, but still 30m away from the person that can mitigate any damage they deal. And even if they jump again, they made things even worse. They are now behind the enemy lines and the opposing team would just retreat a bit while shooting at him. (Or send in their own melee who will still be in range of heals).

 

THAT'S what I call a major mistake! Not the cooldown adjustments.

Edited September 24, 2015 by realleaftea

[branmakmuffin]

It's perfectly clear from this change that they have no clue what they're doing with merc/mando. The nerf to HO/HtL is insane. As you pointed out, tying this new skill to a utility point is utter foolishness...even their metrics can't be this skewed...just look at the freaking ranked classes and I challenge them to explain (logically) why this is all they think we needed...it's so absurd that it's comical...but it's also frustrating as hell because I play this freaking class and I PvP a lot on him...GRRRR!!!

That explains a lot. Remember, the definition of "nerf" is "any change to a class I play" and "buff" is "any change to a class I do not play."

[Grieverheart]

I'm just flat out disappointed that we are not getting another utility point and that the one we currently have at 60 will be taken from us. In the end, I hope Bioware is reading these forum posts. Perhaps all of us saying what we are will get them to change their minds on a few things. If not, then I guess Huttball is dead (whatever, I don't pvp anyway) and I'll just re-up my utility choice at 65.... Edited September 25, 2015 by Grieverheart

[Transcendent]

So let's compare a Jedi Knight with a Mercenary // Power Tech:

Mercs can use Concussion Charge, Smeltering Heat, Pinning Fire or Kolto Residue to slow an enemy; PTs simply use Supressive Tools. The Jedi Knight has Freezing Force & Purifying Sweep to achieve something similar. But what happens if they slow each other??? The Mercs & PT simply press for HO/HtL, get immune to the slow and can easily get away. Good game!!!

 

Well just on my Jedi Sentinel

 

Twin Saber Throw (reduces movement speed of targets)

Leg Slash (reduces movement speed of target and also reduces healing received by target - root available)

Master Strike (root available)

Transcendence (increases your movement speed)

Pacify (90% accuracy debuff to target)

Force Camouflage (also grants movement speed bonus - cleanse available)

Guarded by the Force (you're unlikely to die for 4 seconds....)

Force Leap (gap closer, 15s second CD)

 

....and the list goes on.....

 

Yeah, get out of the thread complaining about being kited by HO/HtL on a flipping Merc when clearly you don't realise how many controlling abilities /ways to stay on target and DCDs a Jedi Knight has.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Transcendent

[TUXs]

Well just on my Jedi Sentinel

 

Twin Saber Throw (reduces movement speed of targets)

Leg Slash (reduces movement speed of target and also reduces healing received by target - root available)

Master Strike (root available)

Transcendence (increases your movement speed)

Pacify (90% accuracy debuff to target)

Force Camouflage (also grants movement speed bonus - cleanse available)

Guarded by the Force (you're unlikely to die for 4 seconds....)

Force Leap (gap closer, 15s second CD)

 

....and the list goes on.....

 

Yeah, get out of the thread complaining about being kited by HO/HtL on a flipping Merc when clearly you don't realise how many controlling abilities /ways to stay on target and DCDs a Jedi Knight has.

Thank you. What a complete farce. I think that guy is confusing PT/VG HO/HtL with Merc/Mandos...they are significantly different.

[ZeroPlus]

Just read the "Jedi Consular + Sith Inquisitor" update.

 

I'm feeling more confident now that Storm/Jet Charge won't be taken away from Shield Specs/Techs at level 10.

 

It looks more and more like Transpose/Translocate will be trainable at 61 for Shield Specs/Techs and Storm/Jet Charge at 61 for the other 2 VG/PT disciplines.

 

It really couldn't be any other way.

 

I hope...

[Transcendent]

Just read the "Jedi Consular + Sith Inquisitor" update.

 

Now we know for sure the combat team all play the stealth classes, and couldn't give a crap about any of the other classes.

[Tenacity]

Baseline jet charge/storm = good.

 

Making it a level 61 ability = f u bioware.

[ZeroPlus]

Baseline jet charge/storm = good.

 

Making it a level 61 ability = f u bioware.

 

Making it a level 61 ability for the DPS disciplines I can live with. Taking it away from the Tank specs until level 61, not so much.

 

Let's hope that I'm reading the blog right...

[Faelandaea]

Well after some time thinking about it, it does not matter about the jump ability. Sin tanks for ages got by without it - so other tanks can, also.

[cyrusramsey]

Well after some time thinking about it, it does not matter about the jump ability. Sin tanks for ages got by without it - so other tanks can, also.

 

edit: small posting error, actual response:

 

Do VG/PT get Force Speed then?

Edited September 26, 2015 by cyrusramsey

[PhlaskCoraan]

To take away jet charge/storm from the tanks until level 61 seems crippling

[Faelandaea]

Do VG/PT get Force Speed then?

 

The only time I have ever used force speed is when in stealth to rush past a group of mobs trying to use their stealth scan. Never have I had a need for it going into combat. It's really not related at all to jumps.

 

Since VG/PT are not stealth classes, they have really no need for force speed.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Faelandaea

[realleaftea]

Well just on my Jedi Sentinel

...

Yeah, get out of the thread complaining about being kited by HO/HtL on a flipping Merc when clearly you don't realise how many controlling abilities / ways to stay on target and DCDs a Jedi Knight has.

So you use a Jedi Sentinel to respond to my arguments about a Jedi Knight? - That kind of desperate, don't you think?

 

But let's have a closer look:

 

Twin Saber Throw (reduces movement speed of targets)

Leg Slash (reduces movement speed of target and also reduces healing received by target - root available)

Master Strike (root available)

Hold the Line // Hydraulic Override grants an immunity vs. movement-imparing and root effects. Since you listed these items here, I have a question for you:

 

If you activate Leg Slash (or a Master Strike) and another speed bonus, and your opponent use Hold The Line a similar slow effect (Entangling Heat, etc.), what makes you believe you can stay on the target?

 

Come on, I don't claim to know it all, so have the guts to correct me on that one rather than listing the appropriate skills here. Because the essential part of my last reply was that although most classes have speed & slow effects, the one with the best immunity vs. slow will have the upper hand.

 

Transcendence (increases your movement speed)

Force Camouflage (also grants movement speed bonus - cleanse available)

Same as before: A movement speed is countered by an opposing speed bonus and negated by an opposing slow. So an immunity vs. slow will give the player the upper hand when comparing the resulting speed.

 

In most cases, slow effects can also be used more frequently. But if the speed bonuses are restricted / limited and the slows by far more commen, any immunity vs. slow is also by far more valuable.

 

Please be so kind and state the cooldown for these two skills here as well. That helps to check, whether the new 45s cooldown for Hold the Line is unreasonable or not, right? My whole point - that you must have missed - wasn't the number of the skills, but to prove, that 45s is pretty much balanced.

 

Pacify (90% accuracy debuff to target)

Guarded by the Force (you're unlikely to die for 4 seconds....)

I don't see how these two skills help you to stay at melee range. Other classes - including HtL/HO classes have damage mitigating or incapacitating skills as well.

 

Force Leap (gap closer, 15s second CD)

How many 30m skills does your Sentinel has? How many 30m attacks does a PowerTech or Commando has in return?

So I could state it this way:

Commando / PT range advantage: gap opener; 0 seconds CD

 

as well as:

Concussion Charge // Jet Boost: gap opener; 30 second CD

And with 4.0:

Rocket Out/Propulsion Round: gap opener; 20 seconds CD

 

So let's sum it up

Once more, but this time using a Jedi Sentinel instead.

 

As soon as your Jedi Sentinel uses Force Leap to get into close range, a Commando might probably use a Rocket Out to create a 20m gap towards you. How are you going to close that gap? If you use a Speed bonus, he can use his Hold the Line instead. And if the immunity vs. slow wears of, you're probably slowed as well. But can you slow or root him in return? No, because you're probably still out of range and even in case of a Saber Throw, he's probably still immune to that.

 

And if or once you get close, he might still use a Concussion Charge to send you flying or activate an Electro Net. So no speed bonuses for you either.

 

And in total, that's such a tremendous disadvantage for the Commando that players keep complaining that their Hold the Line will be nerfed to a 45s cooldown, which is essentially the cooldown of a Force Camouflage.