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Feedback on 4.0 Changes


KaellSolaris

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This post is a copy from my post on the official thread

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=833846&page=24

 

Please add your own opinion or support existing feedback.

 

 

 

 

This is an HONEST AND CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK about your blog of 4.0 class changes : Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior

 

 

About General Class + Combat Changes :

 

Well, even if we lose an utility point after 4.0, we will get it back at level 65, if these change can help for later ok, but not every time we raise our levels.

 

 

Theses change will impact leveling, and also battleground brackets, do you intend to change the brackets level or do they stay as they are since last changes ?

 

 

 

About Warrior/Jedi Knight

 

Mad Dash - Blade Blitz

 

During previous feedback on Marauder - Sentinel forum, there was some people who launch the idea of such ability, and I'm glad to see that you listen to us and pick up that idea.

 

However, Mad Dash - Blade Blitz is the exact same ability for Juggernaut - Guardian and Marauder - Sentinel, and unfortunately, Juggernaut - Guardian already have a better movement capacity due to their abilities (Force Push), current utilities (Warmonger - Battlefield Command, Through Power - True Harmony) and the future skillful utility Unshackling Rage/Focused Freedom (When activated, Enrage/Combat Focus removes movement-impairing effects (immobilizes and slows) and increases the Juggernaut's/Guardian’s movement speed by 50% for the next 6 seconds.)

 

The needs of Juggernaut - Guardian and Marauder - Sentinel in mobility are not the same, is it intended to give to them exact same ability ? and to increase even more of Juggernaut's - Guardian's mobility option via utility ?

 

Another point is the range of Mad Dash - Blade Blitz , 20 meter is quite far and might cause several issues. It raises several questions :

 

 

 

  • If I Pursue a target and she is closer than 20 meter, I risk to go through her and be as far as is was before using it
     
     
  • In an operation if I used it I might risk to go through the boss and take damage that I should not be supposed to take, I might end my dash too far from the healers, and die. Is Mad Dash - Blade Blitz supposed to be add to our cycle in pve ?
     
     
  • Is it slashing every target around us when we activated hit ( meaning slashing target in our back while we are moving away ) or do we absolutely have to face our target to damage it ?
     
     
  • How is it supposed to be used by tank ? (I believe it can be use when a tank have to move the boss around, but if a tank want to benefit from the 100 % defense for a few moment and need to keep the boss exactly how he is, how is it supposed to be used safely for the raid group ?)

 

 

Suggestion :

 

 

• For Marauder - Sentinel :

 

Lower the CD of Mad Dash - Blade Blitz to 30 seconds, reduce his range to 12 meters and allow them to use it a second time 10seconds after the first dash.

 

This is voluntary very similar to the Operative's Exfiltrate and Scoundrel's Scamper, allowing 2 charges mean more flexibility in Marauder's - Sentinel's mobility, allowing them to rectify their trajectory. In addition the CD is lower to 30 seconds, because Marauder - Sentinel do not benefit from the same mobility as Juggernaut - Guardian

 

 

• For Juggernaut - Guardian:

 

Mad Dash - Blade Blitz can be very useful for tank, but it can be even more if they have the choice to benefit of the 100% defense while standing in position.

 

If you considerer that Juggernaut - Guardian tank already have enough protection, then no problem , let Mad Dash - Blade Blitz as it is, it fine.

 

But if you consider that it could be an interesting feature, then give tank the possibility to deactivate for a moment Mad Dash's - Blade Blitz's while conserving the 100 % defense ( in other word, doing it while not moving).

 

For example : during the 4.5 sec after a Smash - Force Sweep , your next Mad Dash - Blade Blitz will not move your character position (Smash - Force Sweep is just an example, that could be any other tank ability).

 

 

 

Blade Dance

 

There's a huge disappointment about this point, many people thought behind the change of name there was also a complete revision of this ability (like when you change Consumption - Noble Sacrifice on Sorcerer - Sage to become Consuming Darkness - Vindicate) and Blade Dance - Ravage will be able to be used while moving.

 

It was even more logic, because you allow Assassin- Shadow in tank discipline to use their Depredating Volts - Cascading Debris to be channeled while moving, so when you add Defensive Slashes/Defensive Swings (Ravage/Blade Dance grants a stacking increase to defense chance with each hit (stacks up to 3 times)) to Juggernaut - Guardian tank, i believe most of people think Ravage - Blade Dance will be able to be use while moving (after all, why would it be allow to move while channeling to Assassin - Shadow).

 

Last argument in favor of a Ravage - Blade Dance while moving: you give it yourself in the Developer blogs :

 

In Game Update 4.0, we wanted to increase the mobility of these formidable combatants in order to allow them to realize their full potential on the battle field, and to make them more difficult to kite.

 

Source : http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20150904

 

Ravage - Blade Dance is the only ability witch force us to stop moving while performing an attack, it cause many issue and if you want to improve our mobility, apply to it the same treatment you do to Depredating Volts - Cascading Debris.

 

Do you considered the possibility of allowing Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight to use Ravage - Blade Dance while moving ?

 

 

Suggestion :

 

 

Allow the use of Blade Dance - Ravage while moving.

 

This change will probably have a big impact on Jedi Knight - Sith Warrior mobility, all these disciplines will be able to stick in melee range while moving out of dangerous area.

 

( PS: if you intent to give us while moving, but not before you rework the animation, then no problem , just tell us and we will wait, i know it can take time to make a nice animation ).

 

 

 

utilities

 

- You have decided to add one more utility per tier, and this change is not welcome, many people are not fan of it and would have prefer an improvement of existing utility rather than new one.

 

Do you intent to keep 8 utility per tier ? or do you consider the possibility to go back to 7 par tier and an improvement " none popular " utilities ?

 

 

- Another point, since 3.0, utilities were design to impact on a few aspect of our characters :

  • Defense
  • Movement
  • Enemies Control

 

The effect of these utility impact only on cooldown, improvement of abilities, and there wasn't any utility witch directly impacting on dps.

 

Then you tell us about a new utility : War Bringer/Ardent Advocate(Force Charge/Leap enables your next Vicious Throw/Dispatch to be used on a target with any health level for 15 seconds after activation) and there is a lot of question about this :

 

Is it intended to have a utility which can be use to improve dps ? don't you fear every Juggernaut -Guardian take it and add their Force charge - Force leap in their PVE rotation to benefit from it

 

How is it supposed to interact with Juggernaut -Guardian passive Destroyer - Keening witch do almost the same thing (without the Rage - Focus cost reduction), but trigger from Blade Dance - Ravage and Bleed - Burn effects) ?

 

 

- About Through Victory - Cut Loose (Mad Dash - Blade Blitz can be used while immobilized and purges immobilization and slow effects when activated), We already have a lot of utility dedicated to improve our movement, for example:

 

Why would I use this utility as a Marauder - Sentinel when I already have on the Heroic tier Unbound - Fleetfooted and Expunging Camouflage witch do already the same effect ? Furthermore, Unbound - Fleetfooted can be apply to a group - raid and Expunging Camouflage is much more powerful to flee from fight or run after a target, so why would i pick up such an utility while I already have 2 which are much more powerfull ?

 

Same argument for Juggernaut - Guardian, they have even more movement abilities, to allow them to move around freely.

 

Why would we choose such utility when we already have other witch are doing the same kind of effect on shorter cd ?

 

 

Suggestion :

 

 

Keep the 7 utility per tier and improve the existing utilities.

 

More utility can be interesting with more utility point, but at the moment some utility are not as interesting as others, and we don't really need more utility, instead if you can improve utility then we will more choice in our character customization.

 

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- About Through Victory - Cut Loose (Mad Dash - Blade Blitz can be used while immobilized and purges immobilization and slow effects when activated), We already have a lot of utility dedicated to improve our movement, for example:

 

Why would I use this utility as a Marauder - Sentinel when I already have on the Heroic tier Unbound - Fleetfooted and Expunging Camouflage witch do already the same effect ? Furthermore, Unbound - Fleetfooted can be apply to a group - raid and Expunging Camouflage is much more powerful to flee from fight or run after a target, so why would i pick up such an utility while I already have 2 which are much more powerfull ?

 

Same argument for Juggernaut - Guardian, they have even more movement abilities, to allow them to move around freely.

 

Why would we choose such utility when we already have other witch are doing the same kind of effect on shorter cd ?

 

^This. Basically Mad Dash is just a new filler because the current Utility it's locked to is esentially useless.

Edited by Nelfrey
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Have to agree with previous post do not see the point in mad dash at all.

 

Now if they had given us the ability to use master strike / ravage while moving that would have been really useful but this change is like they went to the pub on Friday lunchtime to try and come up with something having had a few

 

In this case you can have too many

Edited by WheresMyWhisky
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Well, even if we lose an utility point after 4.0, we will get it back at level 65, if these change can help for later ok, but not every time we raise our levels.

I would only suggest giving more utility points if they add many more utilities. As for now this is really a non issue since everything below max level doesnt really count balance wise. At least less than max level.

 

Another point is the range of Mad Dash - Blade Blitz , 20 meter is quite far and might cause several issues. It raises several questions :

  • 1 - If I Pursue a target and she is closer than 20 meter, I risk to go through her and be as far as is was before using it
     
  • 2 - In an operation if I used it I might risk to go through the boss and take damage that I should not be supposed to take, I might end my dash too far from the healers, and die. Is Mad Dash - Blade Blitz supposed to be add to our cycle in pve ?
     
  • 3 - Is it slashing every target around us when we activated hit ( meaning slashing target in our back while we are moving away ) or do we absolutely have to face our target to damage it ?
     
  • 4 - How is it supposed to be used by tank ? (I believe it can be use when a tank have to move the boss around, but if a tank want to benefit from the 100 % defense for a few moment and need to keep the boss exactly how he is, how is it supposed to be used safely for the raid group ?)

 

I think that as a saboteur gunslinger I'm qualified to answer these questions as this is almost a pure copy of hightail + scatterbombs

1 - indeed you will. You have to learn to use the ability well. I always quickly lookup the range of the boss to spot my distance before hightailing

 

2a - I guess its not supposed to be used rotational (just like hightail+scattering)

2b - Most likely you will be in GOD mode when dashing so you won't take . There is a chance that the 100% defense might also work against force/tech attacks. Tooltips for these kind of abilities are rarely completely accurate

2c - Dashing to far is not an issue. Its very easy to control (speaking from someone who has played saboteur in melee range for a very long time)

 

3 - Good question but I think the target needs to be slightly in front of you

 

4 - Easy .... just do a wallbang ;) Or turn around 180 degree so its a backward jump. After the dash immediatly leap back again so that the movement is limited

Edited by fire-breath
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I think that as a saboteur gunslinger I'm qualified to answer these questions as this is almost a pure copy of hightail + scatterbombs

 

Yes, but Hightail It has only 20 second cooldown, Mad Dash - Blade Blitz has 45 seconds cooldown.

 

1 - indeed you will. You have to learn to use the ability well. I always quickly lookup the range of the boss to spot my distance before hightailing

 

In PVE we will spend most of our time in melee range, so if we use it we will most likely go through the pack, boss, etc.

 

Unlike Force Leap - Force Charge, Mad Dash - Blade Blitz doesn't generate Focus - Rage. So when we have to come back to melee range, we will most likely use Force Leap - Force Charge (if we are closer than 10 m, we will go through our target and end our dash farther than when we use it).

 

So unless we want to go to a specific location safely or evade a color circle, it's more likely a pure PVP tool.

 

And for PVP well 20 meter is fine (more for a distance class witch need to get out off melee range).

 

For Juggernaut - Guardian, well they have so much mobility, 45 sec and 20 meters sound fine, but for Marauder - Sentinel which have less mobility option, I think a mechanism like Operative's Exfiltrate or Scoundrel's Scamper is more adapted to the need of this advance class.

 

2a - I guess its not supposed to be used rotational (just like hightail+scattering)

2b - Most likely you will be in GOD mode when dashing so you won't take . There is a chance that the 100% defense might also work against force/tech attacks. Tooltips for these kind of abilities are rarely completely accurate

2c - Dashing to far is not an issue. Its very easy to control (speaking from someone who has played saboteur in melee range for a very long time)

 

Agree for 2a and 2b, even if I'm more worry about what appends after the god mod end and we fall into a color circle of death.

 

for 2c, well it might be an issue if we are not able to control properly where we end the dash, need to see in situation how it exactly works.

 

4 - Easy .... just do a wallbang ;) Or turn around 180 degree so its a backward jump. After the dash immediatly leap back again so that the movement is limited

 

I guess the server will re-calculate our position at the moment we use Mad Dash - Blade Blitz, and consider that we are 20 meters farther a few mili-seconds after the use of this ability. So even if we jump right after, the boss will move a few meter and it can penalize the group - opération.

Edited by KaellSolaris
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I dunno ya know the fact that it gives 100% defense is the big part which could sorta make it another def cd depending how long the effect lasts. Not really worried about the hindered or immobilzed part if you get rooted with any incoming damage will only last for 2 seconds which can be crucial but that's the point of a root and if white barred just turns into a slow. Another nice thing imo is this move on top of other current abilities being combo together for offensive and defensive use. Like a juggernaut could face away use mad dash into an intercede to cover 50m which im guessing is going to be pretty quick, or leap push leap mad dash for something like hutt ball who knows tho mad dash could drop the ball?

 

Only thing I can see where it being annoying is the 45 sec cd but tbh I feel like this move is meant to be used aggressively and it will undoubtedly make a big difference in something like arena where staying on a target early in the fight is very important.

 

Have to wait and see what every other class is getting tho to truly compare everything.

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I doubt that the new ability will be rotational in PvE nor PvP (talking DPS). So it's probably just a movement enhancer. Our job will be to decide wether it's better to leap or use the new one depending on the distance of the place we want to go. Cooldown would be ok at 45s if rootbreaking was baseline. If it must be a utility point, it should be one tier lower than it is.
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Hats off to you guys who keep trying to provide feedback to a DEV team that clearly don't care or want any feedback.

 

For what it's worth this 4.0 changes are as garbage as the last changes we had.

 

''New Active Ability: Mad Dash/Blade Blitz! Dash forward 20 meters, dealing weapon damage to enemies in your path and increasing your defense chance by 100% while dashing''

Utter rubbish this Mad Dash/Blade Blitz is. The damage is weapon damage only and the defense that everyone is hoping will be great lasts while you move, which will be what around 1 second maybe 2 if your lucky.

Your not walking slowly across the screen so its going to be a burst of defense that's not going to change your survivability by anything that'l you'l notice much...hell most times this will be used to escape in unranked PVP and ranged are ganking you so you Mad Dash away only to end up still in range and boom dead anyway.

For PVE this ability is completely useless...If your looking at endgame ops then the last thing you need is this tool.

Dashing across the screen only to be yelled at by healers for going out of range as you take stupid amount of damage as you stop 20 metres away from where you were. Sentinel/Marauders do not want this ability.

 

And even if and its a big IF there becomes a use for this ability its on a 45 sec cooldown..by design its not to be used often.

It feels like they went

''meh *** it give them a mad move that makes them zip across the screen, the morons will love it,''

''but its crap and the damage is poor and its on a 45 sec cooldown..total crap''

''true ..hmmm how to sell it as something we have thought about more than 5 mins on...I know 100% defense but we don't want to make them OP so only as they move..there right lets move on to class's that are ranged!! ME love ranged!!''

 

Annihilation/Watchman still broken/horrible/ugly rotation..tons of feedback on that but ignored.

Carnage/Combat gets a burn dot on ravage lol because thats what they want a dot..ffs...just buff theyre Ravage

Fury/Concentration get a crit buff like that spec doesn't have that over flowing already...clearly this spec was given the same amount time on changes as it takes the defense buff on mad dash to fall off.

 

Sigh why are we all still trying...play the story then unsub..it's clear thats the road we're on

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I'm more worried about the lack of improvement for the Guardian/Juggernaut ability Guardian leap/intercede. It's been around since launch, and it's nowhere near as powerful, interesting or useful as some of the other level 50 tank abilities. I mean come on, here we are debating more movement when half of the population neither uses or cares about some of the powers we already have. I can't see the point of these, except to salve the ego of Mara/Sent players. Even then, it's like the dev's are solely trying to focus on PVP. These forums are a bad place to get a balanced review or even feedback.
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Remove Brazen, make it passive, put the utility that makes Mad Dash/BB break roots in Skillful tier. This ability will be incredibly useful in PVP and PVE and I can't wait for it, just wish it didn't take a heroic utility to be good.

 

The 100% defense chance is the same thing Concealment has on Exfiltrate (roll). We are only getting it because that is the only workaround for the roll bug Ops have been dealing with since 2.0. It is safe to assume that it will have a reduced GCD to make 100% sure you actually move as far as you were supposed to, and do not get stuck in place while using it.

 

And in the same vein as roll, if you chose to use it for this, you can avoid 100% damage by properly timing usage of this ability. Healers will not cry about you being "out of range" (lol? aim better? healing is 30m MD/BB only goes 20), they will thank you for taking exactly zero damage from whatever hit in particular you chose to dodge with this skill. Sheesh.

 

As for the rest of the new things. CC immunity on Saber Ward is a joke, so is getting a full rage bar when you use a 5m CD. I think MD/BB should just break roots/snares passively honestly, and putting that utility in heroic is basically just spitting in our face. Every other class has or will have a root break in tier 1 or tier 2, if not a class passive, except us. All 3 of ours will be in Heroic tier, which is just flatly ridiculous IMO. The Annihilation passive is weak at best and a nerf at worst (seems likely they will nerf our normal dot damage by 5% to even things out, net change zero, but it means even less damage when you're off target due to kiting/mechanics/cc). The Carnage passive is insulting, personally along with everyone else I know would like Ravage to do damage again and not be the joke it is now, a dot is not the solution to this. Fury passive is actually nice, more burst, can't complain.

Edited by Racter
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And in the same vein as roll, if you chose to use it for this, you can avoid 100% damage by properly timing usage of this ability. Healers will not cry about you being "out of range" (lol? aim better? healing is 30m MD/BB only goes 20), they will thank you for taking exactly zero damage from whatever hit in particular you chose to dodge with this skill. Sheesh.

 

i think you forget an important point, healer are not standing in melee range, they are 25-29.99 meters away from melee.

 

So if you dash 20 meter in the wrong direction, you will be at 45-49.99 from healers, the issue is not taking no damage during dash, is taking AFTER dash, and if you are not the main tank, i guess you can forget about a healer moving his a** to heal you because you get out of range.

 

After if you heal are convinent why not, but personaly, when i heal, i have something else to do than running after people witch are too far away

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Yip thats exactly what I was about to say...

 

Very rarely is melee ever standing close to healers..Most healers keep there distance from melee..so 9 times out of 10 you'l be blitzing out of range

And the old agrument ''learn to use it right'' is just another way of saying 'yes we know this sucks but it sometimes comes in handy''

Instead a decent new ability or passive that could be used often and welcomed by all we're left with something no one asked for and see as an action bar bloat.

The defense buff while we move isn't great...its going to be on and off so fast, so you have to time your dash's too perfection..pfff would much rather they gave us something else.

 

Only use this will have is in unranked PVP when you want to run away from ranged eating you alive(but since you can't self heal, your merely delaying your death and would be quicker and better for your team to just die and respawn) or to run to stop a cap, maybe get to a healthpack drop...but since mara/sents have stealth and predation/transcendence its still not really needed.

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I personally like the Mad Dash/Blade Blitz ability - I think it gives BW the options to balance around an ability that will add more skill to Marauder/Sent/Guardian/Jugg play. We will now have a movement ability that allows us to dodge/resist attacks when used at the right time, do damage in a line, cover ground quickly to a specific spot of our choosing. Those are all major positives.

 

I do agree that Marauders/Sents need for mobility is different than that of Juggs/Guardians. BW may need to adjust the ability as suggested by the OP, give the two specializations different CD's or something similar. But they now have an ability that can be tuned so that's a positive in my book.

 

I don't see the ability being used rotationally in PVE but that depends on the damage it does and how it fits into each boss fight.

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I think the overall net effect of the 4.0 class ability/utility additions will change very little in regards to balance for both PvE and PvP. Bounty Hunters and Inquisitors will probably maintain their dominance in the endgame through KOTFE.

 

Having said that I think that the additions for Marauder/Sentinel, while looking fairly weak on paper, will probably end up being pretty fun to play around with and could create some interesting variations in openers and tactical ability combinations once we actually get to start using them.

 

My main concern right now is how the merging of surge and crit ratings will effect gear min/maxing and what the new optimal stat balance will be.

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I just read the scoundrel changes... Going to be hard to kill healers...

 

I love my mara, its been my main since launch... But looking at things progressing further, I am afraid i might have to switch classes. Sadly bioware seems to love other classes more, and i might have to roll with the times.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I just read the scoundrel changes... Going to be hard to kill healers...

 

I love my mara, its been my main since launch... But looking at things progressing further, I am afraid i might have to switch classes. Sadly bioware seems to love other classes more, and i might have to roll with the times.

 

As one who mains Annihilation Marauder, I can feel your pain.

 

:csw_jabbapet: This cute emote shows what I think is actually doing the balancing for Kotfe.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Those that can't see the potential of Mad Dash apparently aren't pvpers. Using it just before Thundering Blast or PTs thermal detonator hits any1? And this is just a tiny % of the potential.

 

And also the ability sounds cool, if they don't screw over the animation that is.

Playing a Marauder will feel more and more like you are playing Force Unleashed. In a good way.

Edited by Kaedusz
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Mad Dash is a welcome ability, to me, as I like gap closers and that's predominantly what I'd be using it for—although, having a burst ducking mechanism is certainly welcome as well. Too many classes can effectively kite us, even with the changes to Predation.

 

If I were to put my finger on what's really bothering me about Mara/Sents [now my favorite class, mained a Sorc for years] it's this:

 

Bioware needs to delineate the class function from others a bit more, imo. We’re a melee class. We’re not doing anything if we’re not in the thick of it, on top of our target, etc. So we need to either get more dmg seeing as we’re a relatively squishy dps class in comparison to others [PTs, Ops, Juggs, say] that, or, we need better survivability.

 

Ideas:

 

1. If we’re going the former, include the uniform crit dmg boost to more abilities. I mean, PTs get 30% crit dmg boost to like 5 or 6 abilities if I recall correctly. This way, with more of our abilities hitting much harder crit-wise, at least we’re bloodying more noses before we get focused down. This is what an in-your-face melee class ought to be able to do

 

2. If the latter, and overall dmg won’t be upped, then survivability needs some tweaking-- but not much. I’d like lower base CDs on Shield Barrier and Undying, 3 mins is a bit much. That, or maybe a reward for being in the thick of it, like certain abilities usage lowers the CDs by one second, or something like that

 

Now, please bear in mind that I’m speaking mainly Fury/Concentration and Anni/Sent-equivalent here. Carnage benefits immensely from Berserk’s 30% Alacrity buff and Massacre Spam.

 

edit: oh, and all three Specs should definitely share in the same offhand dmg

Edited by Gostyata
grammar
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  • 2 weeks later...
i think you forget an important point, healer are not standing in melee range, they are 25-29.99 meters away from melee.

 

So if you dash 20 meter in the wrong direction, you will be at 45-49.99 from healers, the issue is not taking no damage during dash, is taking AFTER dash, and if you are not the main tank, i guess you can forget about a healer moving his a** to heal you because you get out of range.

 

I have a really good strategy to remedy the fuss about this scenario that seems to be going around.

Run/leap to the healer the old fashioned way if you can't aim a 20m dash? :eek:

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Does anybody have any insight on what to do about Accuracy now? Should it be left alone or stacked less now due to the changes? Was at almost exact 100% before 4.0, am now at 111%, while my Crit Multiplier dropped from somewhere around 73%-ish to 62%.

 

Lower your accuracy til you hit 100% again, then fill in the rest with other stats. The accuracy returns might go down at 65 but there has been no mention of this so holding off on big gear changes is probably best saved for after you hit 65.

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