Trooper story... wait what? (Minor spoilers)

[normandeauc]

***DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU DID NOT COMPLETE THE ORD MANTELL STORY FOR THE TROOPER. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.***

 

Hey guys, I've just landed on Alderaan with my trooper, so I didn't quite complete chapter 1 yet, but I've already encountered a few problems in the story which make absolutely no sense. I hope I simply misunderstood the story, because I'd like if it actually made sense. Can anyone tell me if I'm wrong and why?

 

1st problem is when you become Havoc's CO:

 

"Oh, it looks like they all defected. Well, congrats sergeant, you're Havoc's Squad's CO now! You're also a Lieutenant, because ranking up is that easy and anyone who completes an assault mission is capable of leading troops, especially the best of them!"

"Um, sir, we're talking about choosing a new commander for the Republic's best soldiers, nothing less. Shouldn't this take time, interviews with other great soldiers/veterans, some form of testing? The Republic has a lot of qualified, battle-hardened fighters who proved themselves during the war."

"Negative, soldier. Also, Lieutenant Jorgan, you're a sergeant now, because f*ck you. I'm also placing you under that guy's command, because leading the Deadeyes doesn't mean anything about being qualified to lead Havoc. That guy is obviously better than you, did you see him beat up a bunch of separatists?"

 

I'm gonna stop there but you get the point. Anything I'm missing here?

 

2nd problem: Meanwhile, on the Imperial side:

 

"Sir! The Republic's best of the bests just defected to us! Havoc Squad! Arguably the best squad in the Galaxy is now fighting for us! How should we use their god-like talents? Send them to exterminate the Balmorran resistance, perhaps?"

"Negative! First of all, they're not a squad anymore."

"Um... sir, what do you mean?"

"I mean I'm sending every single member on a different planet to do stuff. Let's see... I'll send this one to Taris... this one to Tattoine... this one... why not to Alderaan?..."

"Sir, if I may, these soldiers are extremely well-trained and familiar with each other. Their efficiency is multiplied by a thousand when they operate together!"

"YOU DARE QUESTION ME?" *shoots him*

 

Yeah... how does that even make sense?

Edited September 4, 2015 by normandeauc

[Saelinne]

"Oh, it looks like they all defected. Well, congrats sergeant, you're Havoc's Squad's CO now! You're also a Lieutenant, because ranking up is that easy and anyone who completes an assault mission is capable of leading troops, especially the best of them!"

"Um, sir, we're talking about choosing a new commander for the Republic's best soldiers, nothing less. Shouldn't this take time, interviews with other great soldiers/veterans, some form of testing? The Republic has a lot of qualified, battle-hardened fighters who proved themselves during the war."

"Negative, soldier. Also, Lieutenant Jorgan, you're a sergeant now, because f*ck you. I'm also placing you under that guy's command, because leading the Deadeyes doesn't mean anything about being qualified to lead Havoc. That guy is obviously better than you, did you see him beat up a bunch of separatists?"

...no love for us ladies..../cry

 

But for serious answer....didn't you have some(alot?) of qualifications before you started the game? I have forgotten the trooper story (long time haven't played as one), but it makes sense that you are not just any random trooper.

 

"Sir! The Republic's best of the bests just defected to us! Havoc Squad! Arguably the best squad in the Galaxy is now fighting for us! How should we use their god-like talents? Send them to exterminate the Balmorran resistance, perhaps?"

"Negative! First of all, they're not a squad anymore."

"Um... sir, what do you mean?"

"I mean I'm sending every single member on a different planet to do stuff. Let's see... I'll send this one to Taris... this one to Tattoine... this one... why not to Alderaan?..."

"Sir, if I may, these soldiers are extremely well-trained and familiar with each other. Their efficiency is multiplied by a thousand when they operate together!"

"YOU DARE QUESTION ME?" *shoots him*

 

Yeah... how does that even make sense?

...that is excellent point....

...the only reason I can think of is that like in almost all the fantasy books your hero doesn't meet the Dragon/Lich untill they are ready for them:)

....just imagine how Harry Potter would have turned out with smart Voldemort....or more to the point imagine Harry's bloody remains on the wall:D

 

Edit: I have no doubt that your promotion was planned even before your ship landed on the planet...maybe that was your final test and if you return you are smart/cunning enough for the rank? (you are not force user so there is no risk of you being just a very powerful thug)

Edited September 4, 2015 by Saelinne

[SelinaH]

2nd problem: Meanwhile, on the Imperial side:

 

"Sir! The Republic's best of the bests just defected to us! Havoc Squad! Arguably the best squad in the Galaxy is now fighting for us! How should we use their god-like talents? Send them to exterminate the Balmorran resistance, perhaps?"

"Negative! First of all, they're not a squad anymore."

"Um... sir, what do you mean?"

"I mean I'm sending every single member on a different planet to do stuff. Let's see... I'll send this one to Taris... this one to Tattoine... this one... why not to Alderaan?..."

"Sir, if I may, these soldiers are extremely well-trained and familiar with each other. Their efficiency is multiplied by a thousand when they operate together!"

"YOU DARE QUESTION ME?" *shoots him*

 

Yeah... how does that even make sense?

The player character Trooper doesn't do any better than his/her nemeses. When Havoc Squad is ordered to "Move out!" -- it's usually him/her... and one other member.

 

The rest must be playing sabacc or cutting their toenails or something.

[normandeauc]

The player character Trooper doesn't do any better than his/her nemeses. When Havoc Squad is ordered to "Move out!" -- it's usually him/her... and one other member.

 

The rest must be playing sabacc or cutting their toenails or something.

 

Yeah, I know. It always makes me laugh when my guy says "HAVOC SQUAD! FIRING FORMATION!" and there's just him and my one comp, either Jorgan or Elara, like "Yes sir!". Pathetic.

 

This could have been a lot better if, say, the enemy weren't all split up like they are. You'd go from planet to planet dismantling stuff related to their operations instead of the squad itself, and the Act I final showdown could be against the whole squad, but you'd get to use all of your companions (I know you've only go 3 by the end of the act, but still, I think something along those lines would be a lot better than what we actually got).

[Joachimthbear]

2nd problem: Meanwhile, on the Imperial side:

My best attempt at an explanation is that the Empire doesn't really trust the defectors yet. They're less effective when split up, yes - as an asset to the Empire, but also as a liability if it turns out the defection was just a ruse of some kind.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Joachimthbear

[Jedi_riches]

Well the only things I can think of to answer these questions are:-

 

1) why are we leading Havoc - OK so a promotion to LT is the standard promotion after seargeant in the SW universe, so it may be a worthy promotion based on the fact that we stopped a plan for the enemy to get a hold of a WMD, as for leading Havoc, it does not really state what your prior experience is before joining havoc only mentions about your excellent academy record (surely we did not graduate the academy as a seargeant so maybe there are some hidden experience of leading men/women).

Though come to think about it the only real question I have is how General Vandar has the authority to promote you and assign you as havocs new CO is Spec forces all under General Garza's area.

 

2) Jorgen, basically the republic wanted to keep the defection of Havoc a secret, so in a mission that was overseen by Jorgen he basically became a scapegoat, as on record it would be seen as the loss of all but 1 member of havoc squad (probably filed as either KIA or MIA) under his oversight and this would usually come with a severe repremant on his file.

 

3) As for splitting up the old members of Havoc the best that I can think of is 2 fold:-

Either

The empire felt that the members could be beter utilised with their speciality i.e needles being both a medic and some one who can produce adrenal's would prove more useful taking part in experiments involving Rakghouls, likewise fuse being a bomb designer perhaps was considered better than what the empire had.

or

Techically the squad defected from the republic, so by keeping them apart there was less chance of them collaberating and possible going back to the Republic so basically a trust issue.

[Jrr_hypernova]

...no love for us ladies..../cry

 

But for serious answer....didn't you have some(alot?) of qualifications before you started the game? I have forgotten the trooper story (long time haven't played as one), but it makes sense that you are not just any random trooper.

 

 

...that is excellent point....

...the only reason I can think of is that like in almost all the fantasy books your hero doesn't meet the Dragon/Lich untill they are ready for them:)

....just imagine how Harry Potter would have turned out with smart Voldemort....or more to the point imagine Harry's bloody remains on the wall:D

 

Edit: I have no doubt that your promotion was planned even before your ship landed on the planet...maybe that was your final test and if you return you are smart/cunning enough for the rank? (you are not force user so there is no risk of you being just a very powerful thug)

 

potter beats voldermort in book 1 and well every book apart from 3 not what id call waiting

[SithKoriandr]

The brass screwing over a soldier is standard fare. I think the worst part is if you choose Elara over him. Both just as capable, but he gets upset enough, I think it proves the point. He has issues he needs to get taken care of before getting up in rank again

 

Also, I like to think a little more time than a day went into the first planet. If all the planets take a day, then none of it really makes sense.

[Anysao]

Well, it's mentioned time and time again that you are definitely more than the average soldier. It is also mentioned that "backwater Seps" really aren't very well-equipped. Considering a hotshot pilot (the Smuggler) also managed to blast up the Separatist base with little more than a pistol, I really don't see how the Trooper is a war hero for that operation. Furthermore, why did Jorgan get demoted? Even if you are considered a great soldier, I would definitely agree Catman is more experienced than you are.

 

I think a more realistic outcome to the story is that Havoc Squad would be dissolved, and you and Jorgan would both be reassigned to new SpecForce squads. Why start over? That's essentially stealing you from the front lines.

 

But more importantly: OP, I want you to write more story summaries like this one.

[Spetulhu]

I think a more realistic outcome to the story is that Havoc Squad would be dissolved, and you and Jorgan would both be reassigned to new SpecForce squads. Why start over? That's essentially stealing you from the front lines.

 

Havoc Squad is also a great propaganda tool - it would look extremely bad to have it officially dissolved. Kind of how the Romans would replace a destroyed Legion with a new one using the same number and name, only leaving the number unused if the defeat was particularly humiliating.

[Anysao]

Havoc Squad is also a great propaganda tool - it would look extremely bad to have it officially dissolved. Kind of how the Romans would replace a destroyed Legion with a new one using the same number and name, only leaving the number unused if the defeat was particularly humiliating.

 

I don't know- I kind of doubt Havoc Squad was what was holding the Republic together. Coruscant sacked, Alderaan seceded, Bothawui annexed by the Empire- this SpecForce team is, in the scope of things, insignificant. No offense, Troops.

[Sichey]

I don't know- I kind of doubt Havoc Squad was what was holding the Republic together. Coruscant sacked, Alderaan seceded, Bothawui annexed by the Empire- this SpecForce team is, in the scope of things, insignificant. No offense, Troops.

 

Well Tavus says the "Every Havoc Squad victory fires up the hope of the people" (or something like that)

 

Simply said: They are the best Squad of the Republic Army. Every victory they get, fires up the hope of other soldiers and most likely citizens of the republic:

Yes, against planets they are insignificant and they won't hold the republic together, but they fire up the hope of the people so = Nice Propaganda tool

Edited September 6, 2015 by Sichey

[BartElroy]

***DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU DID NOT COMPLETE THE ORD MANTELL STORY FOR THE TROOPER. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.***

 

Hey guys, I've just landed on Alderaan with my trooper, so I didn't quite complete chapter 1 yet, but I've already encountered a few problems in the story which make absolutely no sense. I hope I simply misunderstood the story, because I'd like if it actually made sense. Can anyone tell me if I'm wrong and why?

 

1st problem is when you become Havoc's CO:

 

"Oh, it looks like they all defected. Well, congrats sergeant, you're Havoc's Squad's CO now! You're also a Lieutenant, because ranking up is that easy and anyone who completes an assault mission is capable of leading troops, especially the best of them!"

"Um, sir, we're talking about choosing a new commander for the Republic's best soldiers, nothing less. Shouldn't this take time, interviews with other great soldiers/veterans, some form of testing? The Republic has a lot of qualified, battle-hardened fighters who proved themselves during the war."

"Negative, soldier. Also, Lieutenant Jorgan, you're a sergeant now, because f*ck you. I'm also placing you under that guy's command, because leading the Deadeyes doesn't mean anything about being qualified to lead Havoc. That guy is obviously better than you, did you see him beat up a bunch of separatists?"

 

I'm gonna stop there but you get the point. Anything I'm missing here?

 

Yeah, you're missing some context. First, the Trooper starts as a Sergeant, which is already a leadership position. Second, the Trooper was being assigned to Havoc squad, which means they'd already been deemed worthy of being among the "best of the best". The only real problem I have with that is the promotion from Sergeant to Lieutenant without a side trip to OCS, but then, it's possible that the Republic doesn't separate its officers from it's NCO's and it's just a single progression, so *shrug*.

 

As for Jorgan, I honestly don't think him getting busted was entirely unjustified. Jorgan's an ***, from the moment you meet him. He does nothing but belittle you and treat you like dirt, and it's entirely possible that an officer who was less pre-occupied with patting himself on the back and resenting you for the assignment he so obviously thought he deserved would have actually noticed that something fishy was up with Havoc squad. First time I played the Trooper story way back in Beta, even with no spoilers, I knew something was fishy with the Squad well before they defected. Jorgan dropped the ball, and my major issue with his story is that he was assigned to Havoc, because if I'd had any say it it, he'd be scrubbing latrines on Ord Mantell until he retired. I bench him the moment I get Elara, and never use him again except for his companion quests.

 

2nd problem: Meanwhile, on the Imperial side:

 

"Sir! The Republic's best of the bests just defected to us! Havoc Squad! Arguably the best squad in the Galaxy is now fighting for us! How should we use their god-like talents? Send them to exterminate the Balmorran resistance, perhaps?"

"Negative! First of all, they're not a squad anymore."

"Um... sir, what do you mean?"

"I mean I'm sending every single member on a different planet to do stuff. Let's see... I'll send this one to Taris... this one to Tattoine... this one... why not to Alderaan?..."

"Sir, if I may, these soldiers are extremely well-trained and familiar with each other. Their efficiency is multiplied by a thousand when they operate together!"

"YOU DARE QUESTION ME?" *shoots him*

 

Yeah... how does that even make sense?

 

Actually, it does. Havoc doesn't just defect. They take a large part of the spec forces community with them. There are hundreds of defectors. Maybe more. The former Havoc squad members are acting as Captains or Lieutenant Colonels, running short battalions of defectors. This is actually realistic. You have really talented people, you don't leave them on a tiny little team, you promote them, and break them up so they can share their expertise and train others up to their level.

 

That's one of the reasons shows like Star Trek or Babylon 5 are so unrealistic. Kirk would never have been able to hold on to Spock or Sulu for five years. Spock would have had his own ship after a year or two, and Sulu would have had a slot as someone's XO in the same time, then his own ship. Even holding on to Chekov would have been an issue. Scotty, Uhura and Bones are a different story, because their tech specialists (though engineering it technically a line officer, so Scotty could probably have had his own ship if he wanted it). Same with Sheridan on Babylon 5. Ivanova should have had her own ship by the end of season 2. Don't even get me started on Riker and TNG. After the second time he refused his own command, they would have washed Riker out of Star Fleet.

[BartElroy]

The brass screwing over a soldier is standard fare. I think the worst part is if you choose Elara over him. Both just as capable, but he gets upset enough, I think it proves the point. He has issues he needs to get taken care of before getting up in rank again

 

Also, I like to think a little more time than a day went into the first planet. If all the planets take a day, then none of it really makes sense.

 

Except Jorgan is not nearly as good a candidate for the job as Elara. Jorgan is conceited, petty, and lets his emotions cloud his judgement. It's clear from the get go that he resents you on Ord Mantell, and he has no problem letting you know it. He spends most of his companion conversations telling you you're too incompetent/unqualified to lead Havoc squad. No way in hell I'm going to make someone like that my second in command. In fact, if I had the option, I would have pulled Garza aside and had him removed from Havoc Squad the moment we hit Coruscant. He is a huge liability.

[Xarko]

Thing that bugs the most about trooper story is the very beginning. Why would you recruit new guy when you and rest of your squad plan to defect. They obviously had it planned for quite some time, recruiting at that point doesnt make any sense.

[Jedi_riches]

Thing that bugs the most about trooper story is the very beginning. Why would you recruit new guy when you and rest of your squad plan to defect. They obviously had it planned for quite some time, recruiting at that point doesnt make any sense.

 

Well its probably either that they were forced to take you on, like how Garza basically decides who you are recruiting eg vic or Yuun or perhaps Tavus wanted you there for some reason, maybe hoping to pin the mission faliure on you while the rest of Havoc are declared MIA (they did not know that Jorgen would break the rules by sending you in to disable the weapon after all)

Edited September 15, 2015 by Jedi_riches

[normandeauc]

This is actually realistic. You have really talented people, you don't leave them on a tiny little team, you promote them, and break them up so they can share their expertise and train others up to their level.

 

Well if it's that obvious, why doesn't the Republic do the same? I don't see the problem with having a single squad of elite soldiers, which are basically as much fighting force as they are propaganda. Besides, being a soldier in Havoc does not qualify you for leadership. The rank you get is mostly honorary, because you're the "Best of the best", but your responsabilities are not associated with your rank in that case. As a Major, you should be leading entire platoons, not a 6-man squad: that's a sergeant's job, and arguably even a corporal's. They acknowledge your talents by giving you higher ranks, but you don't get the job that goes with said rank.

 

I think this is just because SWTOR isn't a "military" simulation, and the "Congrats on a mission accomplished! Here's a promotion!" mentality pleases the 13 years-old players. In a real army, you don't earn a rank unless you get the command of a bigger unit. In theory, "Needles" was an officer, and was therefore qualified to lead soldiers in battle. Actually, we all know he was beta as hell, and had absolutely no leadership skills. Neither did Wraith, who was pretty much just a weapon. So yeah, splitting the squad was dumb. These soldiers operate together for a reason.

[VitalityPrime]

You think that's bad?

 

Wait till you're forced to pick up new members for no other reason than, "they're good at blowing stuff up"...or when you pick up new members that use a gun in the cutscenes, as you would expect them to, and then magically switch to a melee weapon when they fight along side you. It's absurd.

Edited September 15, 2015 by VitalityPrime

[VitalityPrime]

 

2nd problem: Meanwhile, on the Imperial side:

 

"Sir! The Republic's best of the bests just defected to us! Havoc Squad! Arguably the best squad in the Galaxy is now fighting for us! How should we use their god-like talents? Send them to exterminate the Balmorran resistance, perhaps?"

"Negative! First of all, they're not a squad anymore."

"Um... sir, what do you mean?"

"I mean I'm sending every single member on a different planet to do stuff. Let's see... I'll send this one to Taris... this one to Tattoine... this one... why not to Alderaan?..."

"Sir, if I may, these soldiers are extremely well-trained and familiar with each other. Their efficiency is multiplied by a thousand when they operate together!"

"YOU DARE QUESTION ME?" *shoots him*

 

Yeah... how does that even make sense?

 

The Imperials were probably just glad that they defected. One could easily assume that the Imperials needed Havoc Squad out of service for the Republic, more than they actually needed their services.

Edited September 15, 2015 by VitalityPrime

[Cuiwe]

***DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU DID NOT COMPLETE THE ORD MANTELL STORY FOR THE TROOPER. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.***

 

Hey guys, I've just landed on Alderaan with my trooper, so I didn't quite complete chapter 1 yet, but I've already encountered a few problems in the story which make absolutely no sense. I hope I simply misunderstood the story, because I'd like if it actually made sense. Can anyone tell me if I'm wrong and why?

 

1st problem is when you become Havoc's CO:

 

"Oh, it looks like they all defected. Well, congrats sergeant, you're Havoc's Squad's CO now! You're also a Lieutenant, because ranking up is that easy and anyone who completes an assault mission is capable of leading troops, especially the best of them!"

"Um, sir, we're talking about choosing a new commander for the Republic's best soldiers, nothing less. Shouldn't this take time, interviews with other great soldiers/veterans, some form of testing? The Republic has a lot of qualified, battle-hardened fighters who proved themselves during the war."

"Negative, soldier. Also, Lieutenant Jorgan, you're a sergeant now, because f*ck you. I'm also placing you under that guy's command, because leading the Deadeyes doesn't mean anything about being qualified to lead Havoc. That guy is obviously better than you, did you see him beat up a bunch of separatists?"

 

I'm gonna stop there but you get the point. Anything I'm missing here?

 

2nd problem: Meanwhile, on the Imperial side:

 

"Sir! The Republic's best of the bests just defected to us! Havoc Squad! Arguably the best squad in the Galaxy is now fighting for us! How should we use their god-like talents? Send them to exterminate the Balmorran resistance, perhaps?"

"Negative! First of all, they're not a squad anymore."

"Um... sir, what do you mean?"

"I mean I'm sending every single member on a different planet to do stuff. Let's see... I'll send this one to Taris... this one to Tattoine... this one... why not to Alderaan?..."

"Sir, if I may, these soldiers are extremely well-trained and familiar with each other. Their efficiency is multiplied by a thousand when they operate together!"

"YOU DARE QUESTION ME?" *shoots him*

 

Yeah... how does that even make sense?

 

1. Because you are the protagonist. What can I say?

 

2. Don't mix mechanics with storytelling. They had to break up the former Havoc Squad so as to allow normalised planetary arc. They didn't actually have to do this and could've focused some planets more in some stories and others not at all in the same story...but what do I know? They were broken up because of mechanics of the game.

[Xarko]

Well its probably either that they were forced to take you on, like how Garza basically decides who you are recruiting eg vic or Yuun or perhaps Tavus wanted you there for some reason, maybe hoping to pin the mission faliure on you while the rest of Havoc are declared MIA (they did not know that Jorgen would break the rules by sending you in to disable the weapon after all)

 

Well ye, its possible with big "IFs" and "could have beens", but nothing that actually make perfect sense