Debate of the rising underdog, arsenal or IO?

[TheJollyRogers]

I generally find it much easier to use IO's burst. Every time I play Arsenal it's always hinging on doing a ton of damage (getting criticals) or not that much. It's kind of unpredictable depending on what crits and what doesn't. I don't know - maybe my mindset is just more sorted to IO. I feel like with DoTs + Mag Shots/TD/Unload and Electro Net, I've got a target locked down. And that Missile Blast warhead execute is nothing to shrug off, either.

 

EDIT: Also people saying it's basically impossible to manage your heat as IO. It's really not too difficult once you understand what will overheat you and what doesn't. It just takes a bit of getting used to. I rarely burn myself out with Vent Heat still on cooldown.

Edited August 21, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

Dunno, maybe I'm just extremely lucky, but my Demo Round crits are quite consistent. Like, 7 out of 10 always end up being a hard-hitters.

 

Now, HIB on the other hand... 3-4k hits with x5 stacks of Charged Barrels is just frustrating.

Edited August 21, 2015 by BenitsubasaChiyo

[foxmob]

Dunno, maybe I'm just extremely lucky, but my Demo Round crits are quite consistent. Like, 7 out of 10 always end up being a hard-hitters.

 

Now, HIB on the other hand... 3-4k hits with x5 stacks of Charged Barrels is just frustrating.

 

yep! my experience precisely. hib is amazingly bad at times. but I don't hold back hib as much as demo either. if I get 5 stacks, I'll usually pop it asap whereas with demo, I tend to hold onto it until I have the target in a spot where 12-15k will put him in a world of hurt.

[AngusFTW]

Dunno, maybe I'm just extremely lucky, but my Demo Round crits are quite consistent. Like, 7 out of 10 always end up being a hard-hitters.

 

Now, HIB on the other hand... 3-4k hits with x5 stacks of Charged Barrels is just frustrating.

Its because the autocrit on the set bonus is bugged. When you use the autocrit on the set bonus the proc isn't used up (like on other classes) until its timed out so you can get 2 autocrit heatseeker/demo rounds instead of 1.

[mmmbuddah]

Its because the autocrit on the set bonus is bugged. When you use the autocrit on the set bonus the proc isn't used up (like on other classes) until its timed out so you can get 2 autocrit heatseeker/demo rounds instead of 1.

 

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! This is our only advantage! You should be lynched for even bringing it up! Snipers get two auto crits, why shouldn't we?

Edited August 21, 2015 by mmmbuddah

[Draqsko]

Its because the autocrit on the set bonus is bugged. When you use the autocrit on the set bonus the proc isn't used up (like on other classes) until its timed out so you can get 2 autocrit heatseeker/demo rounds instead of 1.

 

It's a feature at this point.

[Kakisback]

Arsenal is better overall, but IO is certainly better for sustain/pressure. It's not the optimal choice for a pressure dps, but if that's what your comp/strat calls for, IO will be a better bet than arsenal. But most of the time when people take a merc, it's for the burst that arsenal brings. IO can burst better than like a sorc, but it's more predictable and requires more setup than arsenal's.

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

IO can burst better than like a sorc, but it's more predictable and requires more setup than arsenal's.

Are you seriously implying Arsenal's rotation isn't predictable?

[Zoom_VI]

Are you seriously implying Arsenal's rotation isn't predictable?

 

Arsenal is way less predictable than IO in addition to being less predicable than AP, Fury, and Lightning. The only specs that are definitively less predicable than Arsenal would be Carnage and Deception.

[foxmob]

Arsenal is way less predictable than IO in addition to being less predicable than AP, Fury, and Lightning. The only specs that are definitively less predicable than Arsenal would be Carnage and Deception.

 

rotation is highly predictable.

 

dmg is erratic. demo is the least erratic in my experience. but then...I use it more as a precision strike than a straight roto element.

[Kakisback]

It's not predicable, relatively speaking. Demo is the only ranged super hard hitter that doesn't have a cast time or delay. Edited August 23, 2015 by Kakisback

[Gyronamics]

It's not predicable, relatively speaking. Demo is the only ranged super hard hitter that doesn't have a cast time or delay.

 

Tell me more about the lack of delay as Demo Round floats through the air at you.

 

Anyone unable to react to the smoke spiral let alone the incredibly obvious telegraph of a first Grav Round being put on you doesn't know what they are doing.

 

Gunnery is the most predictable thing in the game and when it's not being predictable it's being really weak.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Gyronamics

[Kakisback]

Tell me more about the lack of delay as Demo Round floats through the air at you.

 

Anyone unable to react to the smoke spiral let alone the incredibly obvious telegraph of a first Grav Round being put on you doesn't know what they are doing.

 

Gunnery is the most predictable thing in the game and when it's not being predictable it's being really weak.

 

You are hopeless. The minor delay of demo round is nothing compared to a cast. And we're not talking about at the start of the game when you're applying your first grav round, we're talking about it in relation to hard switch bursting ... why else would we be discussing the predictability of burst?

[Transcendent]

It's not predicable, relatively speaking. Demo is the only ranged super hard hitter that doesn't have a cast time or delay.

 

Arsenal / Gunnery rotation should be predictable for anyone that has played the spec. There is an optimal way to play it (same as every spec).

 

As for the Arsenal vs IO debate? Both specs are equally viable and equally non-viable in the same breath.

 

Arsenal has no real build up on it's burst if played right and can target switch without real issues. IO takes a bit longer to set up, which means it can't target swap as effectively.

 

However one minor point, IO gives healers more problems for cleansing. It's always nice to keep the healers under pressure, either through running away from you or through trying to heal / cleanse everyone else from the multitude of dots you're applying. The damage those dots provide may be fluff, but it all adds up over time.

 

As for mobility? IO, hands down is more mobile. Now if only chaff flare gave 35% defence chance as well as 5 charges of absorb for both specs....

Edited August 23, 2015 by Transcendent

[Kakisback]

Arsenal / Gunnery rotation should be predictable for anyone that has played the spec. There is an optimal way to play it (same as every spec).

 

As for the Arsenal vs IO debate? Both specs are equally viable and equally non-viable in the same breath.

 

Arsenal has no real build up on it's burst if played right and can target switch without real issues. IO takes a bit longer to set up, which means it can't target swap as effectively.

 

However one minor point, IO gives healers more problems for cleansing. It's always nice to keep the healers under pressure, either through running away from you or through trying to heal / cleanse everyone else from the multitude of dots you're applying. The damage those dots provide may be fluff, but it all adds up over time.

 

As for mobility? IO, hands down is more mobile. Now if only chaff flare gave 35% defence chance as well as 5 charges of absorb for both specs....

 

How is it possible that someone hasn't gotten the memo that dots can't be cleansed anymore?

[Transcendent]

How is it possible that someone hasn't gotten the memo that dots can't be cleansed anymore?

 

Shows how long ago I played IO I prefer the underdog spec.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Transcendent

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

Both Merc DPS specs are underdog specs Edited August 24, 2015 by BenitsubasaChiyo

[jedcjedcjedc]

I really like the mobility of IO, you never really have to stop moving. The problem is what people have already mentioned, it overheats in any battle longer than 7.5 seconds lol. my main issue though is mag shot rarely seems to do big damage and even when it does, it still feels like IO only has the one big move where Arsenal has rail shot, blazing bolts and heatseekers. hell, even primer shot hits for a decent amount on occasion.

[Transcendent]

Both Merc DPS specs are underdog specs

 

All Mercs / Mandos are underdogs when compared to other classes.

[foxmob]

IO only has the one big move where Arsenal has rail shot, blazing bolts and heatseekers. hell, even primer shot hits for a decent amount on occasion.

 

the RNG on arsenal is much higher. but it is weird when you see "killed Player X with priming shot for 9k." 10s later, your rail hits someone else for 3.5k.

[BenduKundalini]

Both Merc DPS specs are underdog specs

 

Just hit 60 3 days ago on my arsenal toon and did some arenas last night with ranked players. Globalled and destroyed in less than 10 s most of the time in arenas...

 

Not one bit as experienced as you guys however there's one thing I'd like to point out, about the accuracy vs surge debate: I remember reading (was it Keyboardninja?) that crit bypasses shields entirely.

 

Therefore a guaranteed crit... could be saved to be used against tanks... provided it's not deflected in the first place. So while it would be a pain in the *** to get sky-high accuracy, that set bonus heatseeker missile could be great against tanks.

 

Great thread!

 

Edit - found the tip. From one of the game's developper no less, but 3 years old though.

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/nraf1/armor_penetration_what_does_it_do/

 

 

Originally Posted by JasonA (Senior Game Balance Designer) Combat Results:

 

We use a two-roll system for determining combat results.

 

First is a hit roll, accuracy versus defense, and if the attacker misses then no damage occurs. If the attacker rolled poorly enough to miss even discounting the target's defense then a "Miss" result occurs. If he misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target's equipped weapons. All the possible results - Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover - are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways.

 

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target's shield chance off the table. It shouldn't be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target's shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.

Edited August 24, 2015 by BenduKundalini

[Gyronamics]

No...

 

If you want to deal with tanks more effectively you don't pin your hopes on a crit HSM which is mitigated by armour anyway.

 

You go in as IO and load the tank with DoT which bypasses shield, defence and absorb all the time.

 

And you also won't get shredded by a Jugg reflect unlike Arsenal.

[BenduKundalini]

No...

 

If you want to deal with tanks more effectively you don't pin your hopes on a crit HSM which is mitigated by armour anyway.

 

You go in as IO and load the tank with DoT which bypasses shield, defence and absorb all the time.

 

And you also won't get shredded by a Jugg reflect unlike Arsenal.

 

Yeah but especially after reading this fine thread, I'm not respeccing into a headache spec (for me, at any rate) that requires some ramping up that I don't picture as feasible under the pressure of wz's.

Just pointing out, as arsenal, it could be good to save HSM for tanks. Quick target swap. Same for any other guaranteed crits other classes have. I also liked someone's input that he saves his one-per-minute (supposedly... thanks for the info lol) HSM as a finisher.

 

And the supercharged cell that grants another 10% pen could be used just for that, in that case...

 

Thanks

Edited August 24, 2015 by BenduKundalini

[Kakisback]

Yeah but especially after reading this fine thread, I'm not respeccing into a headache spec (for me, at any rate) that requires some ramping up that I don't picture as feasible under the pressure of wz's.

Just pointing out, as arsenal, it could be good to save HSM for tanks. Quick target swap. Same for any other guaranteed crits other classes have. I also liked someone's input that he saves his one-per-minute (supposedly... thanks for the info lol) HSM as a finisher.

 

And the supercharged cell that grants another 10% pen could be used just for that, in that case...

 

Thanks

 

No. Get the thought of HSMing tanks out of your head right now.

[Draqsko]

Yeah but especially after reading this fine thread, I'm not respeccing into a headache spec (for me, at any rate) that requires some ramping up that I don't picture as feasible under the pressure of wz's.

Just pointing out, as arsenal, it could be good to save HSM for tanks. Quick target swap. Same for any other guaranteed crits other classes have. I also liked someone's input that he saves his one-per-minute (supposedly... thanks for the info lol) HSM as a finisher.

 

And the supercharged cell that grants another 10% pen could be used just for that, in that case...

 

Thanks

 

Still have to telegraph that HSM with a Tracer. And a jug tank will make you pay for that telegraph unless you want to sit there looking stupid for 5 seconds.