I'm Getting Tired of the Bads

[DethlaHadyn]

My preferred method of inc calling is as follows:

inc west 1

2

4

 

WEST YOU FOOLS

Crinn has been defeated

 

 

Heh, you're way too polite.

[Jake_Chambers]

My preferred method of inc calling is as follows:

inc west 1

2

4

 

WEST YOU FOOLS

Crinn has been defeated

 

You can only 1v3? Roll sorc heals for the leet 1v7's no need to call for backup

[Grue_Hunter]

My preferred method of inc calling is as follows:

inc west 1

2

4

 

WEST YOU FOOLS

Crinn has been defeated

 

I like that! Except I usually finish with

 

DEAD, then

Where the heck were you guys?

[Grue_Hunter]

On the other hand, when I, a pure healing Seer, calls 1 inc, probably a good idea to come help me out. I can stay alive, but I'm not likely to kill many players.

 

Especially since imps on JM like to send one obvious inc to engage, along with a stealth to cap. "1 inc" can quite often be two (or more), and by the time you get a second call out, it might be too late.

 

And if I do call "1 inc", then my next line is "2", then "3", those aren't typo'd hotkeys, that's me struggling in a fight and trying to up the inc number : p

 

Sympathies.

 

It's always nice when you can get the textbox up fast enough when you get hit by a stealthed group. Suddenly you have one guy node spamming and another two hammering away at you. (And then invariably you get the nitwit who tactlessly puts it in Ops chat after the node gets tapped: "Next time time call out before they get there."

Edited August 30, 2015 by Grue_Hunter

[jauvtus]

Yeah i doubt anyone would misinterpret that, though lately it wouldnt surprise me either

 

Another problem can be the classes you have on your team, personally i feel as though my guardian is the worse class in the game for responding to calls, i have no way of breaking combat & no sprint, so its usually a case of ok ill go but i probably wont be there for a good minute or so, guardian leap can sometimes be good for getting back & away but its very situational based (i miss the old speed increase set bonus)

 

where as a sentinal/scoundrel/shadow can all stealth/roll/sprint, sages/slinger/mando can sprint/roll/htl & being ranged are generally in an easier situation to respond, hell even a Vanguard is better equiped for it as they cant be slowed when they want to get get somewhere

 

This is the exact reason why I always pop Transendence/Predation when someone calls inc on other node.

[Grue_Hunter]

This makes me even more believe that Ancient HyperGates is merely an deathmatch game. If collecting orbs is so much meaningless ...

 

It's not even deathmatch - it's Pylons > Kills > Orbs. It's called a Convergence wz for a reason, but few people stop to actually think a pvp area through (in any MMO) before they actually play it.

[Grue_Hunter]

I remember dreading the influx of shtters after 2x XP, now we have 12x XP shtters, f2p shtters, a new movie just around the corner & from what i understand an instant 60 feature come 4.0.... its going to get worse

 

Sigh, you are probably right.

[offence]

Yeah such a massive influx of bads means the game is growing & more people getting into pvp gives us a stronger voice to be heard when it comes to demanding long overdue new content

Its still hard to tolerate their presence though, guess thats something everyone in this thread could work on

 

That's all you got from this "messy" situation ? They abandoned future PvP content indefinitely , outside the arena season rewards they didn't announce anything new , warzones , open world pvp objectives and they remain silent stop being so optimistic dude it's gonna be bad for your health in this situation.

 

It's been 2 years of ignoring PvP now , let's go for 3.

[jedcjedcjedc]

not too situational, you just let them speed by you and then intercede to them

[Icykill_]

My preferred method of inc calling is as follows:

inc west 1

2

4

 

WEST YOU FOOLS

Crinn has been defeated

 

Yep... Best method is to call numbers... Then the whole team doesn't abandon the other node to 8v3 and lose the one you already have...

I've simplified my calls to inc W 1, 2, 3 etc... If people can't work out what W, E, S or even L or R stand for then there is no hope

[DomiSotto]

I suggest capitalization and full pretyped name of the node. If you do not have time to add the numbers, oh, well. In my experience, non-capitalized call is likelier to get lost on the call log.

[EmilmcUgly]

Confession: I was one of the bads last night. First, we lost both pylons in hypergate because nobody went to guard. Not all my fault, obviously, but usually I'll at least check if somebody's doing that, but I didn't. Then, okay, fine, I'll stay back and guard, and I let our pylon get capped WHILE I WAS STANDING THERE because I was playing with focus target instead of paying attention. We lost and lost bad. Thankfully it wasn't a ranked wz.

 

Oh, and then I let a ball carrier go right past me in huttball for a score. Hit my overload too late.

 

Question: is there a type that really should be doing the guarding? I play a tank, and I figure I should be up where the fighting is. But then healers really should be, too, which leaves only DPS to guard, which doesn't seem fair.

[jedcjedcjedc]

Confession: I was one of the bads last night. First, we lost both pylons in hypergate because nobody went to guard. Not all my fault, obviously, but usually I'll at least check if somebody's doing that, but I didn't. Then, okay, fine, I'll stay back and guard, and I let our pylon get capped WHILE I WAS STANDING THERE because I was playing with focus target instead of paying attention. We lost and lost bad. Thankfully it wasn't a ranked wz.

 

Oh, and then I let a ball carrier go right past me in huttball for a score. Hit my overload too late.

 

Question: is there a type that really should be doing the guarding? I play a tank, and I figure I should be up where the fighting is. But then healers really should be, too, which leaves only DPS to guard, which doesn't seem fair.

 

tanks and stealthers are usually the best guards as they can last the longest and disrupt the most enemies from capping. DPS can guard but its not as effective most times. Heck, you can make the argument that Sorcs are good guards due to having an ability they can use as a second stun breaker, same with PT and shoulder cannons.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I noticed a thing in mid PvP.

I noticed it several times.

 

It's about Republic vs. Empire.

 

The first who strike are - of course - the imperial side players. They strike hard, they strike strong, they strike without remorse.

 

The Republic side gets shocked.

Tarkin's Shock Doctrine.

 

Then, after half of the match, the Republic side wakes up.

Most times, though, ONLY after a serious win at one point on the map.

 

They often wake up FAR TOO LATE. Because the imps are the wolves, and the reps are the sheep.

 

But when the Republic side realizes, it has wethers on their side, lots of damage, and get actually the example SHOWN that the Republic side is actually able to GET SOMETHING - then they strike as well.

 

And the Republic side can strike HARD. They strike hard, they strike strong, they strike without remorse.

 

But - and this is the psychological point I tend to see : The imperial side players are using a tactic whioch is meant to shock them. Psychological warfare. Hunt them down, destroy them, make them NEVER get up again !

 

That's why the Republic side is so much full of Bads. Because they get not a chance to learn. Because they get hunt down, destroyed, and made to NEVER get up again BEFORE they are able to learn ANYTHING.

 

And you, you all whine about "bads", because you are the kind of players who isn't as easily shocked like them, I guess. You maybe are even from another age of SWTOR PvP where you have ALREADY LEARNED everything there is to know. You got time to learn it. You weren't hunted town, destroyed, made to never get up again.

 

So, to me, there aren't "bads". There are just people which get never sjhown the message "YOU CAN DO SOMETHING !" THey get never shown that message, and that makes them passive. That makes them sheep-ish.

 

But IF they get this message SHOWN, then they are not "bads" anymore.. THEN, they are as good as everyone else.

 

That's my - highly elaborated - opinion.

Edited August 31, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Technohic]

Confession: I was one of the bads last night. First, we lost both pylons in hypergate because nobody went to guard. Not all my fault, obviously, but usually I'll at least check if somebody's doing that, but I didn't. Then, okay, fine, I'll stay back and guard, and I let our pylon get capped WHILE I WAS STANDING THERE because I was playing with focus target instead of paying attention. We lost and lost bad. Thankfully it wasn't a ranked wz.

 

Oh, and then I let a ball carrier go right past me in huttball for a score. Hit my overload too late.

 

Question: is there a type that really should be doing the guarding? I play a tank, and I figure I should be up where the fighting is. But then healers really should be, too, which leaves only DPS to guard, which doesn't seem fair.

 

We all have our moments or have had them. It's how you react to it and if you improve or even care to begin with that decides what you will be. (EDIT: Some will come with lame brain theories that they are being repressed by someone in stead and complain that they are always bad because they never look inward. ^^ )

 

I would prefer a good tank not guard. I will go on my gunslinger and relieve them if I am aware of it as a good one can be a better power multiplier than me. Unless we have a ton of tanks and no DPS in the fight.

 

Stealth is best of off node guarding as it is its own best counter and most of the time, it will be stealth that tests your defense. And since I spend a lot of time on my gunslinger guarding, I have been trying to use my scoundrel and operative more just to have the better tools. Its less stressful that way; and its a pretty boring job to stress over to begin with.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Technohic

[Banderal]

Confession: I was one of the bads last night. First, we lost both pylons in hypergate because nobody went to guard. Not all my fault, obviously, but usually I'll at least check if somebody's doing that, but I didn't. Then, okay, fine, I'll stay back and guard, and I let our pylon get capped WHILE I WAS STANDING THERE because I was playing with focus target instead of paying attention. We lost and lost bad. Thankfully it wasn't a ranked wz.

 

Isn't admitting the problem the first step to recovery, or something like that?

 

Oh, and then I let a ball carrier go right past me in huttball for a score. Hit my overload too late.

 

If they were already close to your own EZ, and at full health, that might not have been bad. Sometimes it's better to just ignore them and "get the next one" so to speak. But given you were there and knew the situation, and I wasn't, I guess I'll just have to trust you were bad then too.

 

Question: is there a type that really should be doing the guarding? I play a tank, and I figure I should be up where the fighting is. But then healers really should be, too, which leaves only DPS to guard, which doesn't seem fair.

 

In my opinion the best guard is whoever will pay attention, regardless of class. Uber-stealth-tank doesn't help much if they stand in front of the turret/pylon and let someone cap behind them.

 

All being equal, I find a PT with shoulder cannon the hardest to ninja-cap against. I'm not that great at ninja-capping, but slowly learning. Yet, I haven't figure out how to do it against the shoulder cannon. If you just mezz them, they, of course, just blast you with the cannon while they /laugh at you. I tried to plant a phase-walk, then pull them, mezz and phase walk back - then they just break and attack you - then if you stealth out again, mezz them and try to cap they still have shoulder cannon. Totally sucks.

[Icykill_]

tanks and stealthers are usually the best guards as they can last the longest and disrupt the most enemies from capping. DPS can guard but its not as effective most times. Heck, you can make the argument that Sorcs are good guards due to having an ability they can use as a second stun breaker, same with PT and shoulder cannons.

 

Tanks are pretty good guards... They should easily be able to hold off 2 or 3 attackers till help arrives... But they are more important to keep your healers alive, specifically in Hypergates where every death gives the enemy points...

I can only see 2 classes that probably shouldn't ever guard atm (besides healers who are needed the most in Hypergates) and they would be Maras and Mercs... I'm not saying they can't guard... There are some competent people who can... But let's face it... These classes work better in groups... They put out high DPS... But need to use a lot of abilities to stay alive till help arrives... If they send 2 stealth, then it's going to be hard for them to call incs while trying to interrupt a cap and stay alive long enough...

Out of the DPS classes I think snipers do the best work guarding... Sometimes a stealth if you have more than 2 on the team... The other 2 should be putting pressure on their healers until they are ready to try and ninja or deny them capping at all...

While Sorcs can be good guards... The amount of AOE damage they can use to put pressure on the other team, plus speading dots about to make life hard for their healer, plus their own self heals and off heals... Really makes them one of the most useful classes in Hypergates, where deaths matter the most

PTs are also extremely useful at pulling their healers into range...

Sure snipers pump out good DPS... But they have limited cover and mobility area to LOS properly in this map when in mid... Which is why I put them at number one on my list for the best guards... Hardish for stealth to take down fast and difficult for non stealth melee to approach... They also have good defence against ranged... All of these abilities allow them to hold long enough till help arrives...

As with most maps... Each class has different roles in each map... Unfortunately most people don't know what is the best role for their class in each map and just try to do the same thing in every map... Which is usually running around trying to get the highest dps

[Ainianu]

 

Question: is there a type that really should be doing the guarding? I play a tank, and I figure I should be up where the fighting is. But then healers really should be, too, which leaves only DPS to guard, which doesn't seem fair.

 

It mostly depends on team composition imo. I think stealthers of some kind are the best candidates, however if your stealther is your only tank or healer they are best where fighting is. With current matches being quite often healer heavy, a stealthy healer can be the best option for it in many cases. Though as previously said. The most important attributes are awareness and communication

[Locksley]

Seriously, how does a pylon get capped when there are 4 defenders there? How?

 

How does the door in voidstar get capped in front of 5 defenders while I am defending the other side with the other 2 on my team against 5 of the enemy?

 

I ask these questions and the response.... "I was fighting!" Well perhaps you could fight the person capping.

 

I know there have always been bads, but it is becoming the norm to have warzones full of them instead of the random bad warzone. I just don't get it.

 

Go into an arena with a jugg tank....he is in shi cho form. I politely ask him if he notices that he is in the wrong stance and that he should put on soresu form. No response. So, I ask him again just in case he didn't hear. "Please put on soresu form and guard our healer." No response. Lose the match. Ask him again to put on tank stance and finally get a response..."I'm a dps tank! Shut up!"

 

I call incs when I see an enemy rounding the corner from mid to snow. I see that all 7 of my teammates are at grass. Okay maybe there is a big fight over there. Wait...there are 3 more enemies rounding the corner from mid. Still plenty of time for one of the speedier toons to come help. "4 inc snow...come quick" No respone. I see an enemy stealth by me and get lucky and sleep dart him. "5 snow....help." Enemy sorc makes it to the node and starts capping. Sleep dart the sorc. "5 Snow" Others come and start spam capping the node, while I spam sleep dart on them and roll around. Of course I'm forced out. Throw grenade at them and kite around the node. Get choked by a jugg. "Snow help now" Exit combat. Enemies start spam capping again...."HELP SNOW" I am forced out of stealth again and end up getting killed. What happens next....you guessed it. "***....no incs!" "Learn to guard noob" "How the hell did you lose snow?"

 

Of course I reply by saying "look at the chat....I called like 10 times. There was plenty of time to get help." The reply..."Well we were preventing a sin and op from taking grass."

 

I can handle idiots in the occasional warzone. I can handle a single idiot in lots of warzones....you know the stealth guard that doesn't call incs, etc. But when match after match after match is full of brain dead players it gets really tiring. All of those examples happened in a 1.5 hour time period today....and that past couple weeks it has been that story.

 

It really isn't that hard to do simple team play. Attack the person with a target over there head. Call incs...no a stun doesn't actually make you unable to type. Look at your map every once in a while. Look at the node to see if people are capping it. Put on the correct stance and guard someone if you are queued as tank. Throw out taunts as dps sins, juggs, and pts. Responds to incs. None of these things are "SUPER ELITE SPECIAL TACTICS OF SWTOR ALL-STARS" They are basic things. If you are new...then take advice from people. If they are rude...ask them to be nicer about it, but still take the advice. Read your tooltips. How are these things hard?

 

/end rant

 

 

TL;DR Long rant about bad teammates.

 

 

Finally someone else has noticed it, I rolled new toons on shadowlands as ive a few American buddies and man the vast majority of imps on that server pvp'n well its as if you wrote that for them but just to add I like the dps that dont manage over 200k and thats with two healers in the team.

[PaulusMaulus]

Tanks are pretty good guards... They should easily be able to hold off 2 or 3 attackers till help arrives... But they are more important to keep your healers alive, specifically in Hypergates where every death gives the enemy points...

I can only see 2 classes that probably shouldn't ever guard atm (besides healers who are needed the most in Hypergates) and they would be Maras and Mercs... I'm not saying they can't guard... There are some competent people who can... But let's face it... These classes work better in groups... They put out high DPS... But need to use a lot of abilities to stay alive till help arrives... If they send 2 stealth, then it's going to be hard for them to call incs while trying to interrupt a cap and stay alive long enough...

Out of the DPS classes I think snipers do the best work guarding... Sometimes a stealth if you have more than 2 on the team... The other 2 should be putting pressure on their healers until they are ready to try and ninja or deny them capping at all...

While Sorcs can be good guards... The amount of AOE damage they can use to put pressure on the other team, plus speading dots about to make life hard for their healer, plus their own self heals and off heals... Really makes them one of the most useful classes in Hypergates, where deaths matter the most

PTs are also extremely useful at pulling their healers into range...

Sure snipers pump out good DPS... But they have limited cover and mobility area to LOS properly in this map when in mid... Which is why I put them at number one on my list for the best guards... Hardish for stealth to take down fast and difficult for non stealth melee to approach... They also have good defence against ranged... All of these abilities allow them to hold long enough till help arrives...

As with most maps... Each class has different roles in each map... Unfortunately most people don't know what is the best role for their class in each map and just try to do the same thing in every map... Which is usually running around trying to get the highest dps

 

We can debate all day which classes are good at guarding but that is a moot debate because 95% of the Republic population utterly refuses to guard. I can't tell you how many times as a Sage I am forced to be the default guard because people have all kinds of reasons why guarding is not for them. I ask in chat who wants to guard and all I get is silence. Or someone says, the last person landing must do guard duty. Or the person asking about guard duty just volunteered for it. If you have one person guarding a pylon, I defy any class to be able to handle a double stealth ninja team. All I can do is scream for help and see if anyone comes. Of course, I will get read the riot act by the entire team if I get ninja'd and they always say, but you have 2 CC breakers! Why yes, I do! but there were two Sins or Operatives and I blew them and now I am floating in the air.

[Jake_Chambers]

We can debate all day which classes are good at guarding but that is a moot debate because 95% of the Republic population utterly refuses to guard. I can't tell you how many times as a Sage I am forced to be the default guard because people have all kinds of reasons why guarding is not for them. I ask in chat who wants to guard and all I get is silence. Or someone says, the last person landing must do guard duty. Or the person asking about guard duty just volunteered for it. If you have one person guarding a pylon, I defy any class to be able to handle a double stealth ninja team. All I can do is scream for help and see if anyone comes. Of course, I will get read the riot act by the entire team if I get ninja'd and they always say, but you have 2 CC breakers! Why yes, I do! but there were two Sins or Operatives and I blew them and now I am floating in the air.

 

Sages are aptly equipped to at least stall out even double stealth cappers, if you've exhausted all your abilities and no help has arrived then there's nothing you can do

[PaulusMaulus]

Sages are aptly equipped to at least stall out even double stealth cappers, if you've exhausted all your abilities and no help has arrived then there's nothing you can do

 

Highly situational. Either one does the perma stun game on you while the other caps or they murder you in record time and then cap. Either way, unless I am spamming AOEs to detect their presence, them coming out of stealth and getting the first stun on me pretty much determines how this will go. I can stave off one stealth toon but two is incredibly hard to do especially if the Operative does that back stab move where I am unable to turn around. A good Sin/Op combo can completely murder a Sage in seconds.

[aerockyul]

We can debate all day which classes are good at guarding but that is a moot debate because 95% of the Republic population utterly refuses to guard. I can't tell you how many times as a Sage I am forced to be the default guard because people have all kinds of reasons why guarding is not for them. I ask in chat who wants to guard and all I get is silence. Or someone says, the last person landing must do guard duty. Or the person asking about guard duty just volunteered for it. If you have one person guarding a pylon, I defy any class to be able to handle a double stealth ninja team. All I can do is scream for help and see if anyone comes. Of course, I will get read the riot act by the entire team if I get ninja'd and they always say, but you have 2 CC breakers! Why yes, I do! but there were two Sins or Operatives and I blew them and now I am floating in the air.

 

I don't think it's limited to Republic players refusing to guard. Lately I've only been playing on the imp side with my three main pvp toons (I only have one pub pvp toon that has been shelved for a few months) and regardless of my class I'm always the only one bothering to not only guard, but even to cap! Everyone zergs to mid when no instructions are given. Luckily I've been in quite a few matches where they're at least watching the chat box when I call incs and they'll respond. We always win those ones, even with very little communication other than calling incs.

What killed me yesterday was for the first time there was communication before the match as to who was going to go where to cap, and everyone else should zerg mid, and there was widespread agreement on the plan. The wz starts and everyone immediately went every other way EXCEPT mid (except for me and the guy who called out instructions). The entire wz was like herding cats. Didn't go so well, needless to say.

Went from very little communication resulting in wins to too much communication resulting in absolutely nothing.

[Icykill_]

We can debate all day which classes are good at guarding but that is a moot debate because 95% of the Republic population utterly refuses to guard. I can't tell you how many times as a Sage I am forced to be the default guard because people have all kinds of reasons why guarding is not for them. I ask in chat who wants to guard and all I get is silence. Or someone says, the last person landing must do guard duty. Or the person asking about guard duty just volunteered for it. If you have one person guarding a pylon, I defy any class to be able to handle a double stealth ninja team. All I can do is scream for help and see if anyone comes. Of course, I will get read the riot act by the entire team if I get ninja'd and they always say, but you have 2 CC breakers! Why yes, I do! but there were two Sins or Operatives and I blew them and now I am floating in the air.

 

It's not just a rep problem... Atleast not on Harbinger... I play both sides and from personal experience I actually think it's worse with the imps... I find the reps know that most of the imps will death match and the only way they'll win is to play objectives... There seems to be better tactics on the rep side... But they are less skilled in combat... So to win as a rep you need to play smart...

As for asking someone to guard in Hypergates... It should be if you cap it, you guard it... Otherwise don't run there, cap it and run off like a completely selfish noob who just wants a medal and doesn't care about winning... The only time the capper should be able to leave is if someone actually says they will relieve them or some other noob also runs there and stands around guarding...

As for being able to handle a double stealth attack... All the classes I mentioned except Maras and Mercs are viable guards against double stealth... Triple stealth is a different question... I can say I have never lost a node guarding on my Sin/shadow... If anyone does they are either the worst player or the other guys were extremely lucky in being able to find you to sap and cap... But even that shouldn't happen if you know what you are doing, you should be able to anticipate them...

The biggest issue with the double stealth sap and cap is where people stand or position them selves... Also standing static, making it as easy as child's play for a stealth to take their time to sap and cap

At the start of every match I say "if you cap it, you guard it"... I never ask who is guarding because you'll usually be told "you are"...

[Icykill_]

I want to start a thread on more advanced WZ tactics... Most people use the same old tactics match after match... Everyone knows them so they are relatively easy to counter if you know how...

I find it's the people who "think" they know everything after seeing the basic tactics work who refuse to try more advanced ones or rage at you when you do... Then won't respond to calls for defence or incs and continue to be sheep or play lemming suicide matches...

My only concern is the thread will be trolled by these people and derailed... Confusing new players even more...

If we can get a list of some more advanced tactics here first without a big troll fest... I'll start a thread...

 

I like the Hypergates tactic of preventing them capping at all... It's nearly as good as a double cap...

Or even capping their pylon early (I know this is controversial and gets a lot of rage)... It is as effective as preventing a cap if your team recognises that they don't need orbs to win...

Both tactics need the full support of your team... If half of them don't respond to the situation it will give the enemy an advantage after they cap...

I find the best times to use this tactic is

- if you have more than 1 stealth

- they are a healer heavy team and you aren't getting enough kills to win while they run orbs

- you are behind in the score for what ever reason

Of course if you have a team who thinks the only way to win is to run orbs or for you to ninja in the last 40secs, these tactics won't work... Teams like that won't leave mid to defend and will rage at you for capping to early...

The silly thing is these people usually want to have a death match... Why does it need to be mid when you can just as easily do it at their pylon