The Operative roll!!!

[Madautsky]

So if any of you have played the op from the start you know that they we had mobility issues. The first roll was nice but was broken in more ways then one. So you may have a problem with the roll because you can't stun them or root then when they roll, but guess what it is better that then the op getting the prema root when you stun them or root them when they roll. And no it didn't go away in till you left a zone/ planet if you where in world pvp. which means that if you where in a ranked match and that happen on the first match and you died but your team won you would still be rooting in starting zone and you would get kicked out because you can leave the starting zone and you team is now down 1 player. that is why they gave the roll the immunity to stuns and roll. they never could fix the problem with the prema root when rooted or stunned. So if u have problems with ops rolling with the ball make it so no class can roll jump force speed or hold the line with it or take away the immunity to the dmg but not the stun and roots, because we all know bw could never that prema root. now if you still want to take away the immunity to the stuns and roots after knowing why they gave it to ops you just want to destroy the class because u hate it and every one that plays it.

[mmmbuddah]

Did you read what i put at all? I said if the operative is of average skill and all gear being equal and aslong as the mando isn't a top tier player (Whats left of them). Then in close quarters the operative should win. Your class the mando isn't meant for close quarters you are supposed to engage at range. The fact is you play your choice of class. Which happens to show how useless it is in pvp does that mean its the operatives fault for its roll? no its bioware fault you have no DCDs or anything of the sort. Do you not see how moronic your request is you are calling for a nerf of a class which is middle of the pack lol. Its your class which is underpowered Look at which classes are at the top or average they are the majority these days.

 

 

And BTW my main is a sin and i run an operative healer as well I am not biased in anyway I even mentioned earlier about Sins being OP for their cooldowns and utilities. See unlike you i know balance is swings and roundabouts when they make a change i adapt to that and enjoy my game time. Not spend 3/4s of it on here complaining lol

 

There you go again, saying the operative should win if it is in melee range. You do realize all ranged classes don't have a choice about engaging operatives at range, don't you? They are a stealth class, no self respecting operative is going to engage from ranged while not stealthed. But I guess all ranged classes should be fodder for operatives.

 

Logic.

Edited July 19, 2015 by mmmbuddah

[mmmbuddah]

So if any of you have played the op from the start you know that they we had mobility issues. The first roll was nice but was broken in more ways then one. So you may have a problem with the roll because you can't stun them or root then when they roll, but guess what it is better that then the op getting the prema root when you stun them or root them when they roll. And no it didn't go away in till you left a zone/ planet if you where in world pvp. which means that if you where in a ranked match and that happen on the first match and you died but your team won you would still be rooting in starting zone and you would get kicked out because you can leave the starting zone and you team is now down 1 player. that is why they gave the roll the immunity to stuns and roll. they never could fix the problem with the prema root when rooted or stunned. So if u have problems with ops rolling with the ball make it so no class can roll jump force speed or hold the line with it or take away the immunity to the dmg but not the stun and roots, because we all know bw could never that prema root. now if you still want to take away the immunity to the stuns and roots after knowing why they gave it to ops you just want to destroy the class because u hate it and every one that plays it.

 

I am pretty sure people are more concerned with the 23 percent invincibility up time. Mobility is fine, but the amount of invincibility is too much. No other class gets that much. An easy fix would be that if you roll twice within a 10 second period you ahve to wait 20 seconds before you could roll again, That would reduce the up time and still give them immunities.

[Madautsky]

I am pretty sure people are more concerned with the 23 percent invincibility up time. Mobility is fine, but the amount of invincibility is too much. No other class gets that much. An easy fix would be that if you roll twice within a 10 second period you ahve to wait 20 seconds before you could roll again, That would reduce the up time and still give them immunities.

 

That is fine as long as it doesn't go back to I roll and get rooted prema and now I have to leave the wz or log out of game to get unstuck. just put it on part with jugs jumps I see no problem with that. but jugs jump are about the same if you take the talent warmonger and unstoppable. also the 23% of invincibility means during that time they can't attack or anything so if they are using it all the time they aren't doing anything but rolling around no dmg don't to you and no dmg done to them. all other class other then scors can to damge in there immunities and defenses. So I want to know do have problems with jugs and unstoppable with warmonger. Also they have a **** ton more def that can offset any brust. so if u look at the damage u can do to an op in the same amount of time with jug. Knowing how the op plays u know he has 2 roll. after those 2 roll there is 10secs to get to him root him or stun him. ops are the easiest class to kill in a stun. yes we have evasion but that only works on mara middle tree and mm sniper. all other class have a lot of yellow damage. so evasion is not that great. how about this we keep it the way it is and get rid of koto pro, and give back koto injection. also looked at the ranked ladder the top 15 are 2 class. and I bet all the ops that are in the top 50 are healing ops. so why do u want to break a class that isn't that great. because u can't hurt him for 23 % of the time if your not using your stuns right or roots, at the same time he isn't hurting u during that time too.

[jauvtus]

That is fine as long as it doesn't go back to I roll and get rooted prema and now I have to leave the wz or log out of game to get unstuck. just put it on part with jugs jumps I see no problem with that. but jugs jump are about the same if you take the talent warmonger and unstoppable. also the 23% of invincibility means during that time they can't attack or anything so if they are using it all the time they aren't doing anything but rolling around no dmg don't to you and no dmg done to them. all other class other then scors can to damge in there immunities and defenses. So I want to know do have problems with jugs and unstoppable with warmonger. Also they have a **** ton more def that can offset any brust. so if u look at the damage u can do to an op in the same amount of time with jug. Knowing how the op plays u know he has 2 roll. after those 2 roll there is 10secs to get to him root him or stun him. ops are the easiest class to kill in a stun. yes we have evasion but that only works on mara middle tree and mm sniper. all other class have a lot of yellow damage. so evasion is not that great. how about this we keep it the way it is and get rid of koto pro, and give back koto injection. also looked at the ranked ladder the top 15 are 2 class. and I bet all the ops that are in the top 50 are healing ops. so why do u want to break a class that isn't that great. because u can't hurt him for 23 % of the time if your not using your stuns right or roots, at the same time he isn't hurting u during that time too.

 

Other classes might be able to do dmg during their immunity time, BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS VULNERABLE TO AT LEAST 1 TYPE OF DAMAGE, ops are invulnerable to all effects and dmg.

[Ryuku-sama]

Other classes might be able to do dmg during their immunity time, BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS VULNERABLE TO AT LEAST 1 TYPE OF DAMAGE, ops are invulnerable to all effects and dmg.

 

Maybe.

But, assuming we roll exactly on CD, we can roll at most 9.2 times every 60s. Assuming maximum uptime (not two rolls back to back to have 4s uptime instead of 3.5s), we have 18.46s of invulnerability. So about 30.7% uptime in best conditions. In the worst conditions (back to back rolls) we have 26.9% uptime.

Rolling takes ONE GCD. 1.5s. So we are losing 23.1% of our damage uptime by rolling assuming we always roll without having to reposition ourselves.

So, beside a mediocre absorb shield anyone can negates in one GCD and a purge that doesn't grant any useful immunity (unlike Shroud) except against Marksman, Virulance (Shroud can do it almost as well), Annihilation (Shroud can neglect DoT's damage) and Carnage (even if an Execute powered Devastating Blast under Gore still hurt like a truck, preventing the following Vicious Throw is still useful), we have to lose 23.1% of our damage uptime to gain some form of immunity.

 

Losing 23% of our uptime is what we pay for our immunity.

 

If you want to take away the ability to resist controling effects. NOT the ability to be invulnerable to damage, FIX THE ROLL BUG. Else, the immunity is necessary to patch up this bug well enough so it doesn't happen too often.

Removing the damage invulnerability isn't an option. We need it to survive any form of damage. We don't have godmode cooldowns like Sins. We don't have a 3 - 5s immunity to the major source of damage (Crinn, can I have the exact number of yelow vs white damage here??) in a warzone. We don't have a 60% defense to white damage. We don't have Phase Walk. All we have is mediocre cooldowns and roll.

If you take away the invulnerability you gotta give something else. Either a ripoff of Lethality's roll. But I would be concerned about giving so much off healing to a front-loaded burst spec or a new defensive CD.

I could see reducing the resist to a 70% DR + immunity to controlling effects.

 

So. Here's are the possible nerfs I can see.

• 100% damage reduction, no immunity to controling effects. NEED TO FIX THE OLD ROLL BUG.
  
• 70% DR and immunity to controling effects.
  
• Giving us the same off healing power Lethality have... Which could be even more overpowered than what we have.
  

 

Other than that, you would likely destroy Concealment, the already most nerfed spec in SWTOR history. The spec that lost its knockdown to a root (we had to wait a few patches to get back our ability to interrupt on the opener when Deception never lost its own) when Deception saw its own knockdown changed to a stun. The spec that lost its only AoE power way back when Orbital Strike got nerfed. The spec that lost its highest burst with 3.0 (Shoot First (can't remember imp name) > Explosive Probe > Lacerate > Lacerate > Backstab was way higher than what we can do with Backstab > Volatile Substance > Lacerate > Bludgeon > Lacerate in relative damage).

 

Rolls is already easy to dealwith. Just time your abilities.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[QuiveringPotato]

Maybe.

But, assuming we roll exactly on CD, we can roll at most 9.2 times every 60s. Assuming maximum uptime (not two rolls back to back to have 4s uptime instead of 3.5s), we have 18.46s of invulnerability. So about 30.7% uptime in best conditions. In the worst conditions (back to back rolls) we have 26.9% uptime.

Rolling takes ONE GCD. 1.5s. So we are losing 23.1% of our damage uptime by rolling assuming we always roll without having to reposition ourselves.

So, beside a mediocre absorb shield anyone can negates in one GCD and a purge that doesn't grant any useful immunity (unlike Shroud) except against Marksman, Virulance (Shroud can do it almost as well), Annihilation (Shroud can neglect DoT's damage) and Carnage (even if an Execute powered Devastating Blast under Gore still hurt like a truck, preventing the following Vicious Throw is still useful), we have to lose 23.1% of our damage uptime to gain some form of immunity.

 

Losing 23% of our uptime is what we pay for our immunity.

 

If you want to take away the ability to resist controling effects. NOT the ability to be invulnerable to damage, FIX THE ROLL BUG. Else, the immunity is necessary to patch up this bug well enough so it doesn't happen too often.

Removing the damage invulnerability isn't an option. We need it to survive any form of damage. We don't have godmode cooldowns like Sins. We don't have a 3 - 5s immunity to the major source of damage (Crinn, can I have the exact number of yelow vs white damage here??) in a warzone. We don't have a 60% defense to white damage. We don't have Phase Walk. All we have is mediocre cooldowns and roll.

If you take away the invulnerability you gotta give something else. Either a ripoff of Lethality's roll. But I would be concerned about giving so much off healing to a front-loaded burst spec or a new defensive CD.

I could see reducing the resist to a 70% DR + immunity to controlling effects.

 

So. Here's are the possible nerfs I can see.

• 100% damage reduction, no immunity to controling effects. NEED TO FIX THE OLD ROLL BUG.
  
• 70% DR and immunity to controling effects.
  
• Giving us the same off healing power Lethality have... Which could be even more overpowered than what we have.
  

 

Other than that, you would likely destroy Concealment, the already most nerfed spec in SWTOR history. The spec that lost its knockdown to a root (we had to wait a few patches to get back our ability to interrupt on the opener when Deception never lost its own) when Deception saw its own knockdown changed to a stun. The spec that lost its only AoE power way back when Orbital Strike got nerfed. The spec that lost its highest burst with 3.0 (Shoot First (can't remember imp name) > Explosive Probe > Lacerate > Lacerate > Backstab was way higher than what we can do with Backstab > Volatile Substance > Lacerate > Bludgeon > Lacerate in relative damage).

 

Rolls is already easy to dealwith. Just time your abilities.

 

Yeah, definitely in agreement with the possible list of changes to roll. Heals wouldn't really fit concealment, I don't think, but maybe having it automatically break roots (if we don't get any other bonuses to it. and wouldn't provide root immunity) would be alright.

 

Still, I'd prefer to keep it how it is now and just hope other players can L2P.

 

Or, if Bioware wants to rework Shadow Operative Elite (roll immunity talent), give Concealment the knockdown on backstab from stealth back, but bump it up to 2 seconds, that'd be fine, too.

[MiaowZedong]

Other classes might be able to do dmg during their immunity time, BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS VULNERABLE TO AT LEAST 1 TYPE OF DAMAGE, ops are invulnerable to all effects and dmg.

 

Undying Rage says "Hi".

[Iona_Var]

This is nothing against ops but they won't give them their knockdown back without doing the same thing for sins. It's just not going to happen. The suggested changes to roll sound good, I like the 70% DR+control immunity.

[jauvtus]

Undying Rage says "Hi".

 

I'm a sentinel, thx. GbtF also has the lowest uptime of all defCDs (even with utility), also e-net ignores it (but it cancels almost every other dcd, so not that special). I died quite some times with it at low hp anyway.

[jauvtus]

Ofc nerfing trollroll would mean buffing op defcds somewhere else, but the current situation is ridiculous.

[stephenalandavie]

Ofc nerfing trollroll would mean buffing op defcds somewhere else, but the current situation is ridiculous.

 

It doesn't need sorting there are only certain parts which do need sorting such as fire pits and acid pits.

[Raansu]

Undying Rage says "Hi".

 

Which is on a 3 minute CD and is not immune to CC's.

[Scrilian]

Why should a class capable of off-healing, stealth and burst have such kind of absurd immunity?

[jauvtus]

Why should a class capable of off-healing, stealth and burst have such kind of absurd immunity?

 

Their response: we cant do anything while rolling. Some of the lamest excuses, op would be even more broken if they could perform actions during immunity time...

They simply need something else for defensives and leave roll as pure mobilty skill

 

 

And no, GbtF/Undying is not 100% immunity, it's vulnerable to cc and with 2,22%/4% uptime, it has the shortest possible uptime of all 8 AC's immune times.

Edited July 20, 2015 by jauvtus

[Sorkenna]

They simply need something else for defensives and leave roll as pure mobilty skill

 

This.

For now, a concealment op has nothing else to rely on. Nerf the roll and it will be a garbage class.

 

And just a little question, there have been nearly any change to this spec since 3.0 and nobody complained at the beginning, why so much complains now? I don't see concealment op everywhere and the roll is quite predictable in most situations.

[Scrilian]

we cant do anything while rolling

I don't recall waiting for cooldowns and healing while rolling count for nothing.

They simply need something else for defensives

Nope, did you miss the off-healing and stealth part?

[jauvtus]

I don't recall waiting for cooldowns and healing while rolling count for nothing.

 

Nope, did you miss the off-healing and stealth part?

 

Me neither, plus invincibility last after roll, but lets just agree they cant act

 

They have shield probe, evasion, combat stealth and kolto droids for off healing. Evasion is mainly a purge, almost every class can counter that 3s. Shield probe is ok as medium defCD. Kolto droids are hots, useless against burst. And they have combat stealth, now that is quite powerful. Tbh im not sure that's enough defensives, quite easy to counter their defensives except combat stealth, the question is, is that enough to provide them survivability? If they stealth out they literally cant do anything, but hide first, heal up and then engage again. I really dont know if those would be enough if we simply just took trollroll away.

[mmmbuddah]

Me neither, plus invincibility last after roll, but lets just agree they cant act

 

They have shield probe, evasion, combat stealth and kolto droids for off healing. Evasion is mainly a purge, almost every class can counter that 3s. Shield probe is ok as medium defCD. Kolto droids are hots, useless against burst. And they have combat stealth, now that is quite powerful. Tbh im not sure that's enough defensives, quite easy to counter their defensives except combat stealth, the question is, is that enough to provide them survivability? If they stealth out they literally cant do anything, but hide first, heal up and then engage again. I really dont know if those would be enough if we simply just took trollroll away.

 

They are also able to purge all dots with two different abilities. Which counts for a lot tbh.

[jauvtus]

They are also able to purge all dots with two different abilities. Which counts for a lot tbh.

 

Sins get 2 purge, too+deflection(cc...)+overcharge saber+30% dmg red (different ability for the 2 trees but both have it) and besides cc immunity we dont call sin defCDs OP.

Resilience+combat stealth purges~Evasion+combat stealth purges

Overcharge saber~kolto droids

30% dmg red~shield probe

Deflection~ ???

 

Ofc these abilities are NOT equal, but we can see that ops would lack a defensive skill compared to the other stealth class. Also:

if: Force speed~roll

then: Phase walk~ ???

 

Dont misunderstand, i dont think ops should get phase walk or copies from sin defCDs, I just want to point out that they have less abilities for defensive purposes than the other stealth class.

[Joesixxpack]

Yes, I have played one extensively, it is a pretty easy pz class tbh. Not nearly as ez mode as say shadow or guardian, but it is way easier than say gunslinger or commando.

 

Doesn't sound like it so I was going to suggest you check it out. Or maybe everyone on your server is an awful player except for the operatives.

 

If I'm reading your opinion right you think they're in the middle of the pack, but still worth tunnel-griping about.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Joesixxpack

[quantez]

yes, nerf operatives

 

I cant believe this thread has 15 pages already. For 2.5 years "nerf operatives" has been a gimmick on these forums because they were getting nerf after nerf while not being viable at all. Now they finally get a powerfull dcd, and people cry rivers over it. Overall Operatives are in a good place atm, not OP and certainly not gimped.

 

The one place the roll has become too OP is in Huttbal (roll from highest ledge to endline, roll through fire). But then again, Hutball has become silly after 2.0 with all those immunities etc.

[mmmbuddah]

Doesn't sound like it so I was going to suggest you check it out. Or maybe everyone on your server is an awful player except for the operatives.

 

If I'm reading your opinion right you think they're in the middle of the pack, but still worth tunnel-griping about.

 

Upper middle in my opinion. There are obviously WAY more glaring issues with certain other classes that need to be addressed first, but once they are, the 23 % invincibility up time needs addressing. Mind you we do not NEED the traditional BW knee jerk reaction, they need baby nerfs, and baby buffs to other abilities.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Upper middle in my opinion. There are obviously WAY more glaring issues with certain other classes that need to be addressed first, but once they are, the 23 % invincibility up time needs addressing. Mind you we do not NEED the traditional BW knee jerk reaction, they need baby nerfs, and baby buffs to other abilities.

 

nah, bioware when it comes to nerf do not know the mid ways, op or nerfed to the ground, choose

[mmmbuddah]

Sins get 2 purge, too+deflection(cc...)+overcharge saber+30% dmg red (different ability for the 2 trees but both have it) and besides cc immunity we dont call sin defCDs OP.

Resilience+combat stealth purges~Evasion+combat stealth purges

Overcharge saber~kolto droids

30% dmg red~shield probe

Deflection~ ???

 

Ofc these abilities are NOT equal, but we can see that ops would lack a defensive skill compared to the other stealth class. Also:

if: Force speed~roll

then: Phase walk~ ???

 

Dont misunderstand, i dont think ops should get phase walk or copies from sin defCDs, I just want to point out that they have less abilities for defensive purposes than the other stealth class.

 

I am pretty sure everyone has been complaining about sin dcds since 3.0 hit....