The Operative roll!!!

[themachinemann]

I am in BiJ and even I see other premades more often.

 

Lol, it's cool how you dodged the rest of my post and only answered this. But you can have the benefit of the doubt; I only play regs when ranked dies and I was sharing my experience on TRE in response to some previous posts.

 

Snipers and operatives are different. They have different play styles; different roles, different weaknesses, and different strengths. You can't equate their roles without equating everything else they do. So no, it would not make sense to change sniper roll based off of op roll because they are completely different classes. Snipers get a 30m execute...does that mean ops should get a 30m execute as well? No it doesn't....same goes for roll.

 

Obviously snipers and mercs need a fix for pvp, but given they're ranged classes they shouldn't have the same defenses as melee. Plus that would change their role in warzones.

One of the thing the combat team hints on is that each class has a particular playing style and role in warzones, and their range of moves support this. If you're a marauder guarding at hypergate, you should try swap someone. If you're a sniper carrying the huttball, you're doing it wrong. If you're a sorc running ahead of the ball carrier to pull them, you're doing it right. If you're a PT and use HO over a fire trap, you're doing it right. If you're teaming up with another stealth class to sap'n'cap a node, you're doing it right.

 

So for me the lolroll gives concealment some defense while it also fills in a class function, same as 12 second cc immunity for assassins. Without it, concealment would be a pretty boring melee dps class with no defense. Most people would switch to heals or reroll.

[Hiro_Wildfire]

They can still close gaps in that time, stealth, position, all that. Changing the cooldown to 20 seconds if they roll twice would not break them.

 

so doubleing the cooldown on a classes main defence and gap closer would not break them and is warranted?

Because there are tons of concealment operatives on the scoreboards at the moment, 4-5 in every warzone and need hitting over the head with the nerf bat.

 

#NerfOperatives

 

Again, this 23% up time rubbish, assumeing that an operative will always use it on cooldown, which is a pretty big assumption. Its not a viable statistic at all.

 

I'll say it again, the roll is fine. It has a cost for useing it (loss of dps), it has plenty of counters, its important for the class in its current state.

It does not need its cooldown doubleing, it does not need its defence chance takeing away down to 50%, neither of these are 'small' adjustments, they're outright nerfs.

[Elusive_Thing]

Lol, it's cool how you dodged the rest of my post and only answered this. But you can have the benefit of the doubt; I only play regs when ranked dies and I was sharing my experience on TRE in response to some previous posts..

Operative roll dodge! But yeah, fair enough, I suppose the experiences are unique to each player.

[mmmbuddah]

so doubleing the cooldown on a classes main defence and gap closer would not break them and is warranted?

Because there are tons of concealment operatives on the scoreboards at the moment, 4-5 in every warzone and need hitting over the head with the nerf bat.

 

#NerfOperatives

 

Again, this 23% up time rubbish, assumeing that an operative will always use it on cooldown, which is a pretty big assumption. Its not a viable statistic at all.

 

I'll say it again, the roll is fine. It has a cost for useing it (loss of dps), it has plenty of counters, its important for the class in its current state.

It does not need its cooldown doubleing, it does not need its defence chance takeing away down to 50%, neither of these are 'small' adjustments, they're outright nerfs.

 

Math disagrees with you, but whatever.

[Hiro_Wildfire]

Math disagrees with you, but whatever.

 

doing the maths in a way that makes the roll sound overpowered sounds all good when you put it down like that, however it falls flat on its face when you consider everything else the roll does, how very situational it is among many other things.

 

You've only taken into account one side of the math, the side that makes the roll seem powerful and don't seem to be able to focus on anything but that when there's 23% less damage to the enemy as well as to the roller.

You say the math disagree's with me, well of course it does when your only looking through a small part of it, instead of all of it.

 

If the roll let us do damage at the same time as moving + making us invulnerable? Then that would strait up warrant a nerf, it would be ridiculous. However it does come at a cost of damage.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Hiro_Wildfire

[Nokodoko]

At this point as an OP, I would be okay with a roll nerf just so people can stop crying about it.

[Ruskaeth]

At this point as an OP, I would be okay with a roll nerf just so people can stop crying about it.

 

I agree. We have plenty of defensive cds already and we do not melt at all when targetted anyway. Not at all. Please,

nerf roll to stop this important and relevant feedback at forums.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Ruskaeth

[Nokodoko]

I agree. We have plenty of defensive cds already and we do not melt at all when targetted anyway. Not at all. Please,

nerf roll to stop this important and relevant feedback at forums.

 

I would even take a merc nerf to stop the QQ nerf roll threads. Screw personal in-game enjoyment, the forums is where all the action happens.

 

Though you may be right without roll people might QQ about acid blade or hots. Operatives will never catch a break.

[Glower]

My QQ train just arrived :

Supercharge your stealth generator, quickly moving you to a friendly or enemy target and increasing your movement speed by 75% for 3 seconds. Does not break stealth.

 

Plus roll... Yeah, Huttball fun times!

[Mubrak]

My QQ train just arrived :

 

Plus roll... Yeah, Huttball fun times!

 

Well, Warriors get a 20m directional dash, it's only fair that ops get their own version of charge / intercede

 

Quite some ways to "choose our paths" in 4.0

Edited August 7, 2015 by Mubrak

[Ruskaeth]

I wonder if these changes are because of the "melee classes are so poor in operations" QQ mantra you can find on the PVE side of the forums. As far as I am concerned, it might not actually be class balance things but encounter design but.. oh well.

[Joesixxpack]

At this point as an OP, I would be okay with a roll nerf just so people can stop crying about it.

 

 

lol don't nerf us now. We're going to *********** teleport in 4.0 so BW will probably remove backblast in 4.2 after all the QQ.

[Hiro_Wildfire]

or make backblast a 3 second cast with a 20 second cooldown, you never know!

[Joesixxpack]

or make backblast a 3 second cast with a 20 second cooldown, you never know!

 

I thought Mercs were getting that for tracer missile as their 4.0 mobility improvement

 

(just rolled another one, should probably see a pshrink about masochistic tendencies)

[QuiveringPotato]

About the datamined 4.0 stuff, yeah.. I really don't know why Bioware is continuing with all this extra mobility and rootbreak stuff.

 

It's already out of hand at the moment for some classes, adding more crazy mobility moves won't help.

 

Like.. sorcs getting phasewalk. Why?

[NwahsNirom]

Oh please.

 

I have a scoundrel who i play regularly and its easy mode.

At one point me and another guy were able to hold off 6 of the enemy at mid in novare whilst our team was at east. All i did was interrupt > roll > heal > roll back.

They couldn't kill us or stop us.

 

Its not the distance that's the problem, its the immunity to everything tied to it.

 

HO > Can be stunned + damaged

Force speed > Can be stunned + damaged

Leap > Requires a TARGET (+ can be stunned if not veng) and is buggy as hell.

 

Yet here is a stealth class with already a powerful stealth escape, who can then roll away completely immune to stuns, roots, slows and damage.

 

Keep roll, remove the immunity.

Roll is also used as a DCD rather than an escape which further supports that it needs a change.

 

The only counter to roll is E-net (which the effect can be broken anyway and has a long CD) is tied to one of the weakest pvp classes who you can slaughter as a stealth class.

 

If you want to keep the immunities, then take away some of the healing.

 

This.

[Kazz_Devlin]

Exfiltrate can be easily countered by most classes (e.g. Electro Net, Grapple, most roots, etc.). Yes, it closes distance quickly, but it doesn't provide much mitigation unless you're specced correctly and it can be countered by anyone experienced if they play their cards right.

 

Edit (Additional sauce.)

 

Shield Probe absorbs a moderate amount of damage. "Moderate" is around 10-15k damage at best. Not very much in the grand scheme of things.

 

Yes, operatives can heal in each spec, but the only heal that we'd realistically be able to use in a Huttball arena is Kolto Probe, which is NOT enough to heal through an 2+ enemies tunneling the carrier. Even in Lethality with the Infusion instacast, it's still not enough to survive big burst damage.

 

This confuses me...

Edit 2 : Electric Boogaloo

 

Why did I respond seriously to this..?

 

Well he is comparing apples to oranges here a more apt comparison would be if an Assassin can't Phase into enzone with ball why should OP's be allowed too? I have to say I tend to agree. If i have ball and I phase I lose ball same should apply to OP. As for rolling through fire if devs want to leave as is then every other profession that has some burst speed mechanic should also take NO dmg/little dmg when they Force Run, Sprint etc etc through fire. If unwilling to do that then Op's should take FULL dmg when rolling through fire!

Edited August 7, 2015 by Kazz_Devlin

[Kazz_Devlin]

so doubleing the cooldown on a classes main defence and gap closer would not break them and is warranted?

Because there are tons of concealment operatives on the scoreboards at the moment, 4-5 in every warzone and need hitting over the head with the nerf bat.

 

#NerfOperatives

 

Again, this 23% up time rubbish, assumeing that an operative will always use it on cooldown, which is a pretty big assumption. Its not a viable statistic at all.

 

I'll say it again, the roll is fine. It has a cost for useing it (loss of dps), it has plenty of counters, its important for the class in its current state.

It does not need its cooldown doubleing, it does not need its defence chance takeing away down to 50%, neither of these are 'small' adjustments, they're outright nerfs.

 

So what are the "counters" to the profession?

[Kazz_Devlin]

Exfiltrate can be easily countered by most classes (e.g. Electro Net, Grapple, most roots, etc.). Yes, it closes distance quickly, but it doesn't provide much mitigation unless you're specced correctly and it can be countered by anyone experienced if they play their cards right.

 

Edit (Additional sauce.)

 

Shield Probe absorbs a moderate amount of damage. "Moderate" is around 10-15k damage at best. Not very much in the grand scheme of things.

 

Yes, operatives can heal in each spec, but the only heal that we'd realistically be able to use in a Huttball arena is Kolto Probe, which is NOT enough to heal through an 2+ enemies tunneling the carrier. Even in Lethality with the Infusion instacast, it's still not enough to survive big burst damage.

 

This confuses me...

Edit 2 : Electric Boogaloo

 

Why did I respond seriously to this..?

 

Hmm don't have grapple, Don't have Electro net , don't have a root so what do I counter with now?

Your argument is predicated on the fact that you have to be que'd with a teammate that has one of these abilities and seeing how you are not assured a group will have this it by its very nature creates an imbalance. Now Assassin can't use there Phase walk with ball Operatives shouldn't be able to "roll" with ball

-

[QuiveringPotato]

Hmm don't have grapple, Don't have Electro net , don't have a root so what do I counter with now?

Your argument is predicated on the fact that you have to be que'd with a teammate that has one of these abilities and seeing how you are not assured a group will have this it by its very nature creates an imbalance. Now Assassin can't use there Phase walk with ball Operatives shouldn't be able to "roll" with ball

-

 

You either have a 30m 4s mezz on a 15s CD or a spammable 30m 2s root, bwoi.

 

Don't say you don't have anything to counter roll.

[Hiro_Wildfire]

Hmm don't have grapple, Don't have Electro net , don't have a root so what do I counter with now?

Your argument is predicated on the fact that you have to be que'd with a teammate that has one of these abilities and seeing how you are not assured a group will have this it by its very nature creates an imbalance. Now Assassin can't use there Phase walk with ball Operatives shouldn't be able to "roll" with ball

-

 

On top of that, your comparing roll to phase walk when sin's also have force speed that can be tallented to be both immune to roots + break them and other movement impairing effects.

 

This arguments been mentioned time and time again. If roll cannot be used with the ball, neither should leaps and HO for mercs/powertech's.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Hiro_Wildfire

[Saikochoro]

Hmm don't have grapple, Don't have Electro net , don't have a root so what do I counter with now?

Your argument is predicated on the fact that you have to be que'd with a teammate that has one of these abilities and seeing how you are not assured a group will have this it by its very nature creates an imbalance. Now Assassin can't use there Phase walk with ball Operatives shouldn't be able to "roll" with ball

-

 

Every classes has a legitimate way to stop ops from rolling. If you want some ways to stop an op from rolling here is a list of some powers each class has that is capable of doing so.

 

Sorc: creeping terror, overload root (if utility is taken).

Sin: low slash, creeping terror, insta whirlwind (if utility is taken), overload root (if utility is taken)

PT: grapple can pull them back to you.

Ops: crippling slice, sever tendon (if utility is taken).

Sniper: leg shot, cover pulse, flash bang

Merc: e-net, rocket punch root (if utility is taken....yes I know this one is stupid).

Jugg: Ravage, saber throw (if utility is taken), leap, obliterate, more ravage, push + leap, more ravage

Marauder: ravage, crippling slash (if a couple utilities are taken, leap, obliterate.

 

In addition, every class has a hard stun that will also work. With each of these abilities you have to time them properly. For example, don't use leg shot while they are rolling. Use it before or after. If you happen to be on a team with any of these classes you should be able to stop an operative. Also, fighting an operative alone will be the hardest way to stop them. If you know an op is guarding an objective or is trying to steal a node then take someone with you to cap it or have someone help you guard. As far as huttball goes, roll will not get an operative from ball spawn all the way to endzone. They have to run quite a bit of the way or pass the ball. There is plenty of time to use the above abilities to stop an operative during huttball. If they are getting all the way to the endzone without being stopped or killed then you team fails at teamwork. If you are playing as a team no operative should be able to just roll with abandon unless they are off by themselves.

[Ruskaeth]

I really believe this deep unhappy antipathy is misguidedly directed towards the roll for various reason. It's all about root and stun timings wehn fighting vs operatives and scoundrels. Other things matter and I think stealth classes earn ire from players in general and reactions to their other advantages are often boosted. Granted that there could be something else, or even modification to it.

 

One thing could be people not actually understanding that we can hard cleanse ourselves rather often. Knowing when we did the last time might be a good thing when you try to bring down an operative for an example. Another thing is to know when to hit someone with "big hits". We can't roll all the time and if you drive us away from fight we are not much use for four seconds (not in 1 vs 1 necessarily unless we are toying with you and silly kiting). I don't believe all of us operatives and scoundrels are perfect with their roll timing (not me at least - I am an easy kill).

Edited August 8, 2015 by Ruskaeth

[Boomer-]

The lengths that people are going to to defend operative roll is ridiculous. Being able to be completely immune to everything (let's say 30k of damage, stuns, roots, mezzes, slows, pulls, fire and acid) for 3 seconds, on a 10 second is not op? And your argument is that "well I'm not doing any damage while I'm dodging 30k damage and stuns, fire, roots, and mezzes"? Haha, big deal. The other guy just blew his offensive cooldowns (e.g. cull) while you still have all yours so you get to do that damage 3 seconds later when he gets nothing.

 

As it stands 1 operative is UNKILLABLE by 2 competent players with the use of LOS while staying in range, without even having to use vanish. 3 players can be prevented from node capping for a really long time by 1 op. That's balanced? No other class has that.

 

Look I have a 60 operative myself that I play regularly as well as the other 7 classes. Its fun to be immune to everything so often at your fingertips, but its the most overpowered, lazy, and ridiculous ability in the game. Its sad to see the Operative community tries so hard to change the opinion of people that play any other class in game.

Yeah, I'm bad and I need to learn to play. Nevertheless operative roll immunity is unbalanced.

I would suggest at the VERY LEAST getting rid of damage and stun immunity on the second roll.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Boomer-

[Phlem]

You'd have a persuasive argument if it weren't for the fact that in Update 2.7 (which came out 4/8/14, OVER A YEAR AGO), they DID change Scamper/Exfiltrate. Now it doesn't cost energy, but it can only be used twice before going on a 10-second cooldown.

 

And if your team lets an enemy ball-carrier get to the ramp, it's not the developers' fault that they then are able to get into the endzone.

 

I'm pretty sure that BW didn't intend for Scamper/Exfiltrate to exceed it's range when used by a ledge. Pretty surprised they haven't fixed that little bug.