Buff Guardian / Juggernaut

[Jadescythe]

It's easy to say I'm cherry picking numbers or twisting them.

 

It's not that you are trying to skew the numbers in your favor, the meaningful data you are looking for simply doesn't exist. There is no statistical analysis you can do when most players simply don't play the class. Take your breakdown of classes with 10+ wins. You can't compare a subset of data with 400 data points to one with 100 data points.

 

And it's clearly shown that the data is inaccurate by Sin/Shadow showing as one of the lower average ratings. Clearly that class is not in a bad spot, but many below average players play it because it's perceived to be the best class and they think that will make them better. The same can be said for Jugg/Guardian whether you agree or not. Many players view the class as strong and so below average players choose it.

 

Let's also take into account role possibilities. Any solo ranked game with a healer is drastically different than one without. Healing capable classes can have a wide gap between the average healer rating and the average DPS rating. Sorcs happen to be good at both and so you see them at the top (not to mention their offheals in all DPS matches are very strong). Scoundrels are being dragged down by the poor DPS playing the class. Mercs are pretty much entirely healers at the top and have few players going in as DPS anymore.

 

TL;DR It's not that you are trying to change the data to make the numbers look right, you are simply ignoring any factor that isn't taken into account by the statistically non-relevant numbers.

[Raansu]

Are we really going to try and look at class balance based on solo ranked? If so please stop....Solo ranked is not a good measure of class balance. Hell solo ranked shouldn't even exist.

[Jadescythe]

Are we really going to try and look at class balance based on solo ranked? If so please stop....Solo ranked is not a good measure of class balance. Hell solo ranked shouldn't even exist.

 

You had me up until the red part. If people were interested in 4s, then the queue would be more than 4 teams deep after massive transfers. Almost every game with competitive game modes has more players willing to do so solo than in full premades.

[Savej]

Are we really going to try and look at class balance based on solo ranked? If so please stop....Solo ranked is not a good measure of class balance. Hell solo ranked shouldn't even exist.

 

And what are you going to use? Stuff pulled out of your butt? Group ranked stats are currently much less objective and far less telling when looking at balance (but juggs are at the bottom of that, too).

 

People are trying to say that I'm saying the solo ranked results are the be -all/end -all of all arguments, but I haven't said that. My main arguments now are with those saying my numbers are made up or are completely irrelevant because juggs do well in ranked. And with those saying/implying that juggs are or should be for newbs only.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Savej

[sumquy]

i am so sick of melee classes asking for and getting immunity to cc and movement impairment. without these tools, ranged lose to melee every time. none of the ranged classes can face tank a juggernaut, their only chance is to put some distance between them. for the tank spec, i don't have a problem with it, but these super entitled dps melee who think that because they lost to a ranged that one time, then the class obviously needs a buff are too much. Edited July 9, 2015 by sumquy

[Kabaal]

i am so sick of melee classes asking for and getting immunity to cc and movement impairment. without these tools, ranged lose to melee every time. none of the ranged classes can face tank a juggernaut, their only chance is to put some distance between them. for the tank spec, i don't have a problem with it, but these super entitled dps melee who think that because they lost to a ranged that one time, then the class obviously needs a buff are too much.

 

^ I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Raansu]

And what are you going to use? Stuff pulled out of your butt? Group ranked stats are currently much less objective and far less telling when looking at balance (but juggs are at the bottom of that, too).

 

People are trying to say that I'm saying the solo ranked results are the be -all/end -all of all arguments, but I haven't said that. My main arguments now are with those saying my numbers are made up or are completely irrelevant because juggs do well in ranked. And with those saying/implying that juggs are or should be for newbs only.

 

Definitely not going to use solo as a baseline because solo ranked is nothing but luck and q syncs. You cannot and should not balance any class around solo ranked. Doing so would just dumb the game down even more than it already is.

 

Case in point. Season 4 my jugg reached close to 1500 and I only played like 50 matches. My first 10 games I went like 7-3 and then it was win 2 here lose 1 and lose more rating than the 2 wins gave me or win 1 lose 1 lose 2 win 2 back and forth. Season 5 I really didn't care much and didn't even reach 10 games but I lost the first 5 I played and I think he's at like 1100 or something, but every single one of those matches I was the last alive and out dps'd everyone on my team.

 

Solo rank will never be a true representation of player skill and its a terrible way to look at class balance.

[Raansu]

i am so sick of melee classes asking for and getting immunity to cc and movement impairment. without these tools, ranged lose to melee every time. none of the ranged classes can face tank a juggernaut, their only chance is to put some distance between them. for the tank spec, i don't have a problem with it, but these super entitled dps melee who think that because they lost to a ranged that one time, then the class obviously needs a buff are too much.

 

The real question is why are you face tanking anything as a ranged class? L2Kite.

 

With that said. The only "buff" I would give is to make riposte function like it used to, which is make it an off the GCD ability. I hate that ability being on the GCD....I hate even more that they removed it from marauders/sentinels.

[Savej]

It's not that you are trying to skew the numbers in your favor, the meaningful data you are looking for simply doesn't exist. There is no statistical analysis you can do when most players simply don't play the class. Take your breakdown of classes with 10+ wins. You can't compare a subset of data with 400 data points to one with 100 data points.

 

And it's clearly shown that the data is inaccurate by Sin/Shadow showing as one of the lower average ratings. Clearly that class is not in a bad spot, but many below average players play it because it's perceived to be the best class and they think that will make them better. The same can be said for Jugg/Guardian whether you agree or not. Many players view the class as strong and so below average players choose it.

 

Let's also take into account role possibilities. Any solo ranked game with a healer is drastically different than one without. Healing capable classes can have a wide gap between the average healer rating and the average DPS rating. Sorcs happen to be good at both and so you see them at the top (not to mention their offheals in all DPS matches are very strong). Scoundrels are being dragged down by the poor DPS playing the class. Mercs are pretty much entirely healers at the top and have few players going in as DPS anymore.

 

TL;DR It's not that you are trying to change the data to make the numbers look right, you are simply ignoring any factor that isn't taken into account by the statistically non-relevant numbers.

 

Sins are not doing great in general but many of the best ones are. I wish all classes were like that. Juggs are not.

 

You can look at 400 vs 100 when you use averages. 40 vs 10 isn't good but 400 vs 100 isn't horrible for making projections and recognizing patterns. More importantly, thats the only hard data/numbers anyone has access to. The rest of these threads are just people shouting different opinions based on varying isolated experiences. I'm not talking about the thousands of wzs and hundreds of arenas I've been in, most of which I can't remember in detail after a week or two, I'm showing 45000 arena matches where juggs came up last at the end.

 

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying juggs are the worst ac, just that they have performed the worst this season in ranked. And I'm trying to show many louts on the internet where the change requests from some experienced/accomplished juggs are coming from - many clearly don't even want to know but they need to deny them anyways.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Savej

[Brunner_Venda]

Juggernauts need to lose one of their three lives if you want any kind of damage, movement, or utility buffs.

 

Nerf ED first, then start working on their quality of life issues.

[sumquy]

The real question is why are you face tanking anything as a ranged class? L2Kite.

 

With that said. The only "buff" I would give is to make riposte function like it used to, which is make it an off the GCD ability. I hate that ability being on the GCD....I hate even more that they removed it from marauders/sentinels.

 

that's the point. i AM kiting the melee. you might not have noticed, but all of the classes have the same base move speed. if i can't stun, knockback, slow, something, then kiting doesn't help because he just moves with me. melee dps classes should not have multiple immunities like that.

[Raansu]

Juggernauts need to lose one of their three lives if you want any kind of damage, movement, or utility buffs.

 

Nerf ED first, then start working on their quality of life issues.

 

Nerf ED and the class will no longer function. If anything ED needs to become baseline to warriors/knights.

[EAbovee]

Buffing juggs is a complicated issue. Juggs are very powerful class but they are easiest class to counter. Their main problem is mobility and only class with no root breaker not counting stupid intercede root breaking since it is only for 1 tree and you need a teammate to be able to use it. In ranked you dont have to kill jugg root him slow him use push back dont touch him and let him suffer while rooted if he finally reaches you use your speed boost when he starts his rotaion and make him completely useless whole time.

But juggs are very powerful for regs since most of the players in regs doesnt even know their class so they have no idea how to counter a jugg. Giving juggs more mobility and damage boost will make them real monster. So any buff requires reducing survivability to make them not op.

But since a new expansion isc oming biofail will not make any more changes and even they make it they will make it with spreadsheed data not actual game facts so they will fail as always. And game will be single player game soon so why bother for pvp.

 

I would definitely be OK with this. 12 stacks of ED is useless when I am rooted and hapless. The survivabiity should be decreased for the DPS specs and ffs give them a viable root breaker. Intercede is a bit of an inefficient root break and only available to the (currently) weaker of the two specs.

[EAbovee]

i am so sick of melee classes asking for and getting immunity to cc and movement impairment. without these tools, ranged lose to melee every time. none of the ranged classes can face tank a juggernaut, their only chance is to put some distance between them. for the tank spec, i don't have a problem with it, but these super entitled dps melee who think that because they lost to a ranged that one time, then the class obviously needs a buff are too much.

 

Have you tried playing as a melee class in the current meta? Do you see how many movement-impairing abilities each class has? As a ranged class, you can sit at range and DPS someone down with (theoretically) little to no concern to movement-impairment. As obvious as this may sound, it is inherent for melee to be close to and follow their target IOT be effective. But when you have, say, 3 different people throwing out AoE slows or coordinating their roots, it's an absolute nightmare.

 

So, yeah. FO.

[Jadescythe]

Sins are not doing great in general but many of the best ones are.

 

Let's just stop here for a minute. Only the best players matter from a balancing perspective. It doesn't matter if average players can't bring out the best in a class unless you plan to entirely redesign the class to have a lower ceiling and higher floor. Want to do ok with no skill? Spam flame burst on your PT and take your 1300 rating home.

[sumquy]

Have you tried playing as a melee class in the current meta? Do you see how many movement-impairing abilities each class has? As a ranged class, you can sit at range and DPS someone down with (theoretically) little to no concern to movement-impairment. As obvious as this may sound, it is inherent for melee to be close to and follow their target IOT be effective. But when you have, say, 3 different people throwing out AoE slows or coordinating their roots, it's an absolute nightmare.

 

So, yeah. FO.

 

as a matter of fact, yes i have a mara and a pt that i run with but anyway... if allowed to sit at range and free cast then i am the most destructive force ever seen, but how often does that happen? there is a delicate balance between ranged and melee with the one trying to put distance between and the other trying to close it. op's request for more movement immunity completely breaks that to the advantage of melee.

 

tl,dr: you fo

Edited July 9, 2015 by sumquy

[Raansu]

as a matter...yes. i have a mara and a pt that i run with but anyway... if allowed to sit at range and free cast then i am the most destructive force ever seen, but how often does that happen? there is a delicate balance between ranged and melee with the one trying to put distance between and the other trying to close it. op's request for more movement immunity completely breaks that to the advantage of melee.

 

tl,dr: you fo

 

You must be really terrible at pvp.

[DarthOvertone]

And what are you going to use? Stuff pulled out of your butt? Group ranked stats are currently much less objective and far less telling when looking at balance (but juggs are at the bottom of that, too).

 

Bee-Dubya should balance PvP around Ranked 4s, even though nobody plays it. Why? Because of the randomness of the Yolo queue and lack of emphasis on the trinity in team comps. Balance well for 4s and it will have a positive cascade effect for Yolo and Regs...and no, I don't believe in trickle-down economics.

 

Of course, what Bee-Dubya should do is altogether different from what they actually do. For instance, class balance is a mess right now because they balance PvP around PvE.

[thatPERSON]

people keep saying they have problem with roots/snares while playing juggernaut...

 

Before i go any further, let me point out i am far from a great jugg player...

 

that being said, i never have a problem with roots/snares on a jugg. i make it my life goal not to be caught in the open where ranged dps is present. if i am, i leap to them immediately (with the exception of snipers) or leap to a team mate behind an obstacle.

 

i can consistently be in the top three for damage in warzones (so long as the other team doesnt have tab dotters, and doing nothing but) and top 2 for arenas (ranked and reg). i probably have accumulated 15 total ranked arenas on my jugg but ive only lost 3 with him (over the span of multiple season so no official ranking). can someone please explain to me how "top tier juggs" have problems with roots and snares but me, an average jugg at best, has no problems with them?

 

 

 

 

Edit; i have never run into a problem with roots/snares in any form of pvp ive done.

Edited July 9, 2015 by thatPERSON

[sumquy]

You must be really terrible at pvp.

 

i am left speechless by your incredibly insightful rebuttal. luckily my fingers still work.

[EAbovee]

as a matter...yes. i have a mara and a pt that i run with but anyway... if allowed to sit at range and free cast then i am the most destructive force ever seen, but how often does that happen? there is a delicate balance between ranged and melee with the one trying to put distance between and the other trying to close it. op's request for more movement immunity completely breaks that to the advantage of melee.

 

tl,dr: you fo

 

I would agree that a balance must be maintained but I am making the argument that it is currently IMBALANCED in favor of ranged. If BW is failing to reduce the litany of movement-impairment, for whatever reason that may be, then players most affected by it will call for some sort of immunity to such abilities, to provide a little bit of a reprieve.

 

However, based on your response, I think we may lie on irreconcilable sides of the fence here.

[foxmob]

i am left speechless by your incredibly insightful rebuttal. luckily my fingers still work.

 

call inc!

[foxmob]

I would agree that a balance must be maintained but I am making the argument that it is currently IMBALANCED in favor of ranged. If BW is failing to reduce the litany of movement-impairment, for whatever reason that may be, then players most affected by it will call for some sort of immunity to such abilities, to provide a little bit of a reprieve.

 

However, based on your response, I think we may lie on irreconcilable sides of the fence here.

 

you realize that there's only one viable ranged CLASS in yolo, and three specs in 4s. of the three specs, only one is ideal in any particular comp. whereas melee has more viable and more ideal specs for both formats.

 

I agree that CC in general is overdone here. but it's not as you say it is.

[Brunner_Venda]

Nerf ED and the class will no longer function. If anything ED needs to become baseline to warriors/knights.

 

Giving knights damage and utility would work out better.

 

Instead the 'short bus' swtor designers decided to give juggs three full lives and nearly130-150K health. I'm sorry, that's absolutely outrageous. It only works because your class is broken. Can you imagine assassins or PT's with that ability?

[foxmob]

Giving knights damage and utility would work out better.

 

Instead the 'short bus' swtor designers decided to give juggs three full lives and nearly130-150K health. I'm sorry, that's absolutely outrageous. It only works because your class is broken. Can you imagine assassins or PT's with that ability?

 

PTs and sins are bonkers since 3.0 as well. the whole 3.0 overhaul was fail. I agree with what you say here. but...there's just really insane stuff going around everywhere. everything in 3.0 feels extreme.