When will there be new content for Raiders?

[Mikahrone]

This is always the common misconception by a lot of people that don't like to raid. Although, as you call them, "hardcore raiders" aren't the majority of the populations, they are the ones that promote the game. They are the ones that start competitions, drama, rile up excitement, not the casual soccer mom that likes to flirt with Corso. So you are right that a gaming company has to do their best to keep the majority happy but without those hardcore types in your mmo, you just end up with a game equivalent to a facebook cash shop, which is what this is turning into. If that's their vision, then so be it, but totally neglecting that part of an mmo will never allow it to be a top 5 choice. If they and we all accept that and enjoy just the story for what it is, then so be it, but even that has degraded over the years.

 

Top 5 pick for WHOM?

 

MMOs can survive with raiders just fine. Hardcore raiders are pretty much inconsequetial. They promote nothing since most of playerbase is oblivious they even exist.

 

Its not 1999. WS was made on your premise. So stupid premise (its unbelievable that anyone with a brain would even make such premise) that there are some superstars (aka hardcore raiders) that masses adore and follow. Guess what? WS failure was EPIC rofl. WS had to be "dumbed down" considerably.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Artaniz]

This is always the common misconception by a lot of people that don't like to raid. Although, as you call them, "hardcore raiders" aren't the majority of the populations, they are the ones that promote the game. They are the ones that start competitions, drama, rile up excitement, not the casual soccer mom that likes to flirt with Corso. So you are right that a gaming company has to do their best to keep the majority happy but without those hardcore types in your mmo, you just end up with a game equivalent to a facebook cash shop, which is what this is turning into. If that's their vision, then so be it, but totally neglecting that part of an mmo will never allow it to be a top 5 choice. If they and we all accept that and enjoy just the story for what it is, then so be it, but even that has degraded over the years.

 

No you misconstrude my post , i do not misunderstand hardcore from casual on raiders.

As i plainly laid out in my post i have experience. Maybe i didnt make it obv but i raided those 70 mans in EQ and 40 mans in wow. I was Sleepers tomb keyed during veliouse , i was emp and vex thall keyed in EQ during luclin , both those things are so much harder to accomplish than anything you have to do in a modern MMO it is honestly silly to even have this conversation.

 

My point is hardcore raiding is DEAD , it has been dead for about 10 years now. The people who claim to be "hardcore" now are just doing 8 and 16 man nonsense that takes little to no skill beyond watching the you tube video and avoiding the red circles.

 

Those people who claim to be "hardcore raiders" and NEED raid content are IRRELEVANT to modern MMO. It is not my opinion it is fact. I was hardcore 7 days a week raiding in eq and wow for 5 years , but there is no reason anymore. for one no game has non instanced outside raid spawns worth fighting over like we used to in EQ , you dont have to get to the raid mobs before the rest of the server anymore so what does it matter how hardcore you are in yout 8 man instance ???????

 

The games are now being marketed to and for casuals , the genera is not even the same as it was 10 years ago let alone 15 years ago. ALL HARDCORE aspects of the game are being removed. Weather i agree or not is irrelevant the MARKET has spoken . Casuals rule our MMO worlds we either find the **** we can tolerate in the new casual world and enjoy it or you can move on but acting like hardcore raiders matter to mmo populations is nonsense.

[Jumajin]

Top 5 pick for WHOM?

 

MMOs can survive with raiders just fine. Hardcore raiders are pretty much inconsequetial. They promote nothing since most of playerbase is oblivious they even exist.

 

Its not 1999. WS was made on your premise. So stupid premise (its unbelievable that anyone with a brain would even make such premise) that there are some superstars (aka hardcore raiders) that masses adore and follow. Guess what? WS failure was EPIC rofl. WS had to be "dumbed down" considerably.

 

Wildstar failed for a variety of reasons, the "hardcore raids" were just one part of a very large list of reasons. I know, I was there at launch +3 months. Yes, some complained about the raids, but even more about servers unable to handle serious player loads and lagging in very bad ways (same issue they ran into again with the F2P relaunch), many bugged and broken quests, the combat style, leveling was too slow and grindy (and it was at the time, but not anymore), and more reasons.

 

I saw what happened, what chat was talking about, and all the myriad reasons it plummeted. The raiding was a small part of it. Matter of fact, its launch sales and launch population were stellar, and it in fact marketed itself pre-launch as a hardcore raiding game. So, funny that, by your argument, that a game that marketed itself as hardcore would have such high launch sales numbers.

 

But it was all the game's many, many other issues that really caused its downfall. It was not yet ready to be launched. They were warned in Beta. Just like SWTOR was, and EA didn't listen either.

 

Wildstar was never, ever a "1999 design." If you actually played in 1999, then stop talking out the side of your mouth. If you weren't playing back then like some of us were, then stop trying to discuss something you know nothing about.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Jumajin

[Mikahrone]

Wildstar failed for a variety of reasons, the "hardcore raids" were just one part of a very large list of reasons. I know, I was there at launch +3 months. Yes, some complained about the raids, but even more about servers unable to handle serious player loads and lagging in very bad ways (same issue they ran into again with the F2P relaunch), many bugged and broken quests, the combat style, leveling was too slow and grindy (and it was at the time, but not anymore), and more reasons.

 

I saw what happened, what chat was talking about, and all the myriad reasons it plummeted. The raiding was a small part of it. Matter of fact, its launch sales and launch population were stellar, and it in fact marketed itself pre-launch as a hardcore raiding game. So, funny that, by your argument, that a game that marketed itself as hardcore would have such high launch sales numbers.

 

But it was all the game's many, many other issues that really caused its downfall. It was not yet ready to be launched. They were warned in Beta. Just like SWTOR was, and EA didn't listen either.

 

Wildstar was never, ever a "1999 design." If you actually played in 1999, then stop talking out the side of your mouth. If you weren't playing back then like some of us were, then stop trying to discuss something you know nothing about.

 

Stellar sales, rofl, Good thing we dont have NCSofts financial record available....oops we do.

 

All MMOs had bad launch, and yet, somehow WS managed fail so hard above anything else in history.

 

People left becaus there was NOTHING to do but raiding (or preparing to raid) in WS. NOTHING. WS was ALL about endgame and raiding, and by logic of people in this thread (same logic Gaffney and Carbine used, of course its deluded mans logic) it should have THRIVED, hardcores were ecstatic.

 

But, nope cupcake.

 

Of course, you are now here demanding (hard) raids instead of WS. And WS was TAILOR MADE for you.

 

How many games do you guys want to ruin? Do they all have to fail? Will you be satisfied THEN?

 

Go play 1999 emu.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Melacon]

Top 5 pick for WHOM?

 

MMOs can survive with raiders just fine. Hardcore raiders are pretty much inconsequetial. They promote nothing since most of playerbase is oblivious they even exist.

 

Its not 1999. WS was made on your premise. So stupid premise (its unbelievable that anyone with a brain would even make such premise) that there are some superstars (aka hardcore raiders) that masses adore and follow. Guess what? WS failure was EPIC rofl. WS had to be "dumbed down" considerably.

 

You know what, you're right, you're a fricken genius. By population, list the top 5 MMO's, not online picture books, but mmo's that do not have raiding? WS is a terrible example because so much of the game in itself was broke. I'm not saying swtor is doing it wrong, it's their thing and I enjoy it for what it is. But to make the claim that raids aren't needed to thrive is silly, EA may be fine with the population in this game, and so may you, which is why you will only get 4 to 5 hours of actual content every 3 to 6 months.

 

Man, I remember the days when forums were for discussing things vice attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you. By the way, this game's failure was pretty epic also if you even played back then, how many servers did we have to start with and how many do we have now? Or did you forget the whole "15000 per server! omgash", when in actuality it was about 1500.

[Mikahrone]

You know what, you're right, you're a fricken genius. By population, list the top 5 MMO's, not online picture books, but mmo's that do not have raiding? WS is a terrible example because so much of the game in itself was broke. I'm not saying swtor is doing it wrong, it's their thing and I enjoy it for what it is. But to make the claim that raids aren't needed to thrive is silly, EA may be fine with the population in this game, and so may you, which is why you will only get 4 to 5 hours of actual content every 3 to 6 months.

 

Man, I remember the days when forums were for discussing things vice attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you. By the way, this game's failure was pretty epic also if you even played back then, how many servers did we have to start with and how many do we have now? Or did you forget the whole "15000 per server! omgash", when in actuality it was about 1500.

 

Except SWTOR is in this situation BECAUSE it concentrated on raid gear treadmill for last 4-5 years, theres THAT little fact.

 

You got 2 new raids in SoR, and what happened? Biggest drop and worst period in SWTORs history.

 

And something from LOTRO:

 

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

 

They said that after announcement that there will be NO more raids in LOTRO and raiders started ranting all over internet "how important and numerous they are"

 

The most funny thing is that LOTRO didnt even supposed to have PvP and EM was tacked on shortly before launch and over the years all they got was short end of the stick which amounts from little to nothing while raiders were catered to the bone, yet, there was by far MORE PvPers than raiders.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Jumajin]

Of course, you are now here demanding (hard) raids instead of WS. And WS was TAILOR MADE for you.

 

How many games do you guys want to ruin? Do they all have to fail? Will you be satisfied THEN?

 

Go play 1999 emu.

 

Do you read? I'm guessing no. Go back over my posts. Go ahead, I'll wait. Could you read them? If you could, you would have read where I said I am not a raider in SWTOR. Let me repeat that for you: I said I am not a raider in SWTOR.

 

Now let that sink in. I'll go get a coffee and sandwich and wait while you struggle with what I previously posted.

 

Okay, now (maybe) you understand what's typed on a screen. I am not a SWTOR raider, but yet that does not exclude me from supporting the OP.

 

Guess what, too? I don't raid in Wildstar either. The most raiding I ever do is the ocassional LFR level in WoW. So, try to do a little thinking and reading before you spout off at the mouth.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Jumajin

[Mikahrone]

Do you read? I'm guessing no. Go back over my posts. Go ahead, I'll wait. Could you read them? If you could, you would have read where I said I am not a raider in SWTOR. Let me repeat that for you: I said I am not a raider in SWTOR.

 

Now let that sink in. I'll go get a coffee and sandwich and wait while you struggle with what I previously posted.

 

Okay, now (maybe) you understand what's typed on a screen. I am not a SWTOR raider, but yet that does not exclude me from supporting the OP.

 

Guess what, too? I don't raid in Wildstar either. The most raiding I ever do is the ocassional LFR level in WoW. So, try to do a little thinking and reading before you spout off at the mouth.

 

If you did what you suggest and did some thiking you would notice YOU is for posters in this thread and yes it includes you personally as you YOURSELF said you demand raids TOO (in supporting OP)

 

So yes, take your own advice before ranting.

[Jumajin]

If you did what you suggest and did some thiking you would notice YOU is for posters in this thread and yes it includes you personally as you YOURSELF said you demand raids TOO (in supporting OP)

 

So yes, take your own advice before ranting.

 

And yes, the raiders should have been given new raids. I 100% stand behind that. Here's a history lesson, SWTOR launched with a lot more story than KoTFE offers, and very little end-game for the MMO players.

 

It tanked post-launch. A massive Star Wars MMO forced into F2P to survive before its one-year launch anniversary.

 

So, yeah, I support the OP. Why? Because both player demographics need to be supported for any MMO to survive. EA tried this story-only model 4 years ago, and it didn't work then long term either. And despite what your ramblings come off as, I'd actually like to see SWTOR be healthy, not suffer another possible flash in the pan spike with KoTFE like it did at its launch.

 

Unfortunately, BioWare doesn't seem to know how to work with both demographics; they're too much an either/or development company. And that is what's hurt SWTOR for 4 years.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Jumajin

[Mikahrone]

And yes, the raiders should have been given new raids. I 100% stand behind that. Here's a history lesson, SWTOR launched with a lot more story than KoTFE offers, and very little end-game for the MMO players.

 

It tanked post-launch. A massive Star Wars MMO forced into F2P to survive before its one-year launch anniversary.

 

So, yeah, I support the OP. Why? Because both player demographics need to be supported for any MMO to survive. EA tried this story-only model 4 years ago, and it didn't work then long term either. And despite what your ramblings come off as, I'd actually like to see SWTOR be healthy, not suffer another possible flash in the pan spike with to KoTFE like it did at its launch.

 

Nop. SWTOR failed because they decided they wanted WoW crowd more than their own fans and made WoW clone. SWTOR had raids, and added endgame hardcore group content fairly fast. WoW crowd decided WoW has it better and poof, there went that pipe dream. It wouldnt be funny if it didnt happen to EVERY WoW clone rofl. Rift, also tried that, had robust endgame raiding....poof. LOTRO...poof. WS...poof.

 

Raids never retained any significant portion of playerbase, and to make it more ironic, rest of playerbase has to subsidize raiders. Guess what? People decided they are tired of subsidizing.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Grayseven]

Nop. SWTOR failed because they decided they wanted WoW crowd more than their own fans and made WoW clone. SWTOR had raids, and added endgame hardcore group content fairly fast. WoW crowd decided WoW has it better and poof, there went that pipe dream. It wouldnt be funny if it didnt happen to EVERY WoW clone rofl. Rift, also tried that, had robust endgame raiding....poof. LOTRO...poof. WS...poof.

 

Raids never retained any significant portion of playerbase, and to make it more ironic, rest of playerbase has to subsidize raiders. Guess what? People decided they are tired of subsidizing.

 

Man, I love seeing correlation proves causation fallacies used as proof. If they have raids and failed, it had to have been the raids...seriously, do you even read what you write?

 

EA/BW wasn't "chasing the WoW crowd". They were chasing the MMO crowd. All MMO's have many things in common, differing only in window dressing and the occasional "new trick" that is quickly picked up by other MMO makers and shoe-horned into their MMO.

 

All of those MMO's "failed" because of a great many issues. Raiding, if a factor at all, is barely worth a mention when it comes to MMO failure.

 

And to talk about "subsidizing raiders" while everyone else has to subsidize role players and their silly stories? Puhleeze...

 

Everything is involved in retaining a significant portion of the player-base, not just the soft-core non-gaming experience you call story. If a MMO neglects any portion of what makes a MMO a MMO, they will alienate a significant portion of their player base. It doesn't matter what type of play is involved, neglecting it is neglecting the players who play it.

 

Your arguments are nothing more than tired conjecture and false presumptions that you try to pass of as fact. The only fact is that with a player base as small as SWTOR's is, neglecting any portion of it will lead to player loss. Right now, the only thing keeping numbers higher than normal is the new expansion. By December we'll see numbers fall back to normal as people get bored and move on.

[Mikahrone]

Man, I love seeing correlation proves causation fallacies used as proof. If they have raids and failed, it had to have been the raids...seriously, do you even read what you write?

 

EA/BW wasn't "chasing the WoW crowd". They were chasing the MMO crowd. All MMO's have many things in common, differing only in window dressing and the occasional "new trick" that is quickly picked up by other MMO makers and shoe-horned into their MMO.

 

All of those MMO's "failed" because of a great many issues. Raiding, if a factor at all, is barely worth a mention when it comes to MMO failure.

 

And to talk about "subsidizing raiders" while everyone else has to subsidize role players and their silly stories? Puhleeze...

 

Everything is involved in retaining a significant portion of the player-base, not just the soft-core non-gaming experience you call story. If a MMO neglects any portion of what makes a MMO a MMO, they will alienate a significant portion of their player base. It doesn't matter what type of play is involved, neglecting it is neglecting the players who play it.

 

Your arguments are nothing more than tired conjecture and false presumptions that you try to pass of as fact. The only fact is that with a player base as small as SWTOR's is, neglecting any portion of it will lead to player loss. Right now, the only thing keeping numbers higher than normal is the new expansion. By December we'll see numbers fall back to normal as people get bored and move on.

 

Sure, neglecting a portion will lead to player loss, but if that player loss is insignificant its insignificant. OTOH, what produced loss in insignifcant part might have gained even MORE on significant part.

 

Keeping 95% subbed 1 more month means need to keep 5% subbed 19 more months. Its VERY simple.

[Grayseven]

Sure, neglecting a portion will lead to player loss, but if that player loss is insignificant its insignificant. OTOH, what produced loss in insignifcant part might have gained even MORE on significant part.

 

Keeping 95% subbed 1 more month means need to keep 5% subbed 19 more months. Its VERY simple.

 

Making up percentages doesn't make them facts. Fact: Any portion of a player based lost is bad. Fact: SWTOR is losing portions of its player base. Fact: People playing a MMO for story alone is not a majority group. Fact: Most people who play a MMO do so for a large variety of reasons.

 

You want to pass off people who play for end-game content as a small minority when in fact it is not. It is, however, quickly becoming so in a game that has moved away from group end-game content creation and towards rehashing old content while focusing on the one thing that has already proven to be a bad decision a few years back when this game launched.

 

What EA/BW has done is failed to take the lessons of the past into account. It has failed to understand what a MMO really is and has decided to turn this MMO into the KOTOR single player RPG. I'm sure there are people out there who are okay with that, but it sure isn't actual MMO players.

 

I can't wait to see the rage when the story crowd realizes they can't subsidize their story without the raiders and the pvpers and the crafters and everyone else who makes a MMO possible and those story players find themselves waiting longer and longer for new chapters which end up being shorter and shorter as budget constraints force compromise.

[Mikahrone]

Making up percentages doesn't make them facts. Fact: Any portion of a player based lost is bad. Fact: SWTOR is losing portions of its player base. Fact: People playing a MMO for story alone is not a majority group. Fact: Most people who play a MMO do so for a large variety of reasons.

 

You want to pass off people who play for end-game content as a small minority when in fact it is not. It is, however, quickly becoming so in a game that has moved away from group end-game content creation and towards rehashing old content while focusing on the one thing that has already proven to be a bad decision a few years back when this game launched.

 

What EA/BW has done is failed to take the lessons of the past into account. It has failed to understand what a MMO really is and has decided to turn this MMO into the KOTOR single player RPG. I'm sure there are people out there who are okay with that, but it sure isn't actual MMO players.

 

I can't wait to see the rage when the story crowd realizes they can't subsidize their story without the raiders and the pvpers and the crafters and everyone else who makes a MMO possible and those story players find themselves waiting longer and longer for new chapters which end up being shorter and shorter as budget constraints force compromise.

 

Same ol' BS that has bee floating on on MMO forums.

 

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Edited November 8, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Albertwang]

In my guild some people don't care about raids. I can't even muster up enough people in guild as an officer to get folks to do them.

 

And honestly more people PVP than raid. Honestly PVPing is more enjoyable and I hate raid repair bills.

[zalanii]

Most players don't even reach level cap so why make expansions at all for the minority of players?

 

Hmm?

[_NovaBlast_]

I will let my sig do most of my talking ..................

 

 

 

PS: other than that if they do add more raids i hope they learn there lesson and just make it some random mission that no relevance to the main story or they finally make ops soloable.

[runar_smugler]

WE def need rais in this game...yes..part of the best part of the game is the story, but that takes 1 week to complete for us vetaran players....and for us veteran mmo players...staying bellow max level for too long IS NOT the place we wanna be.

 

And I find the raids here in SWTOR extremly cool. Both in terms of story content and the visuals are stunning. They are not performing fluidly like e.g. raids in wow, but they are VERY nice looking at least:)

[FerkWork]

I will let my sig do most of my talking ..................

 

 

 

PS: other than that if they do add more raids i hope they learn there lesson and just make it some random mission that no relevance to the main story or they finally make ops soloable.

 

Thanks for tell in me how to play bro and my playstyle is somehow "wrong"! Maybe your doing it wrong? Maybe everyone is doing it wrong? What is this Middle Ages and your gonna Crusade my *** for not following the one true playstyle as Dictated by you? Pope Urban II please.

 

#Datlogic

 

Honestly I hope because of fundamentalists like you for the next old companion you have to beat NiM DP Council 20 times to recruit them. And story is all via Ops and group content .

Edited November 8, 2015 by FerkWork

[zalanii]

I will let my sig do most of my talking ..................

 

 

 

PS: other than that if they do add more raids i hope they learn there lesson and just make it some random mission that no relevance to the main story or they finally make ops soloable.

 

And I want to play SWTOR not KOTOR 3.

[Djiini]

And I want to play SWTOR not KOTOR 3.

 

Sucks to be you?

[Falensawino]

Most players don't even reach level cap so why make expansions at all for the minority of players?

 

Hmm?

I heard on the Ootinicast podcast which quoted official stats from Bioware that only 10% of players raid.

 

WE def need rais in this game...yes..part of the best part of the game is the story, but that takes 1 week to complete for us vetaran players....and for us veteran mmo players...staying bellow max level for too long IS NOT the place we wanna be.

 

And I find the raids here in SWTOR extremly cool. Both in terms of story content and the visuals are stunning. They are not performing fluidly like e.g. raids in wow, but they are VERY nice looking at least:)

Before bolster, I used to twink my lowbie alts to own up warzones. I was unstoppable because of the clear gear and modification advantage.

 

As the game is now, I don't stay a lowbie for too long, bolster killed twinking in warzones.

 

Twinking is when you craft or buy the best possible gear for your lowbie alts. It's not practical to do it anymore.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Falensawino

[Djiini]

I heard on the Ootinicast podcast which quoted official stats from Bioware that only 10% of players raid.

 

Prepare yourself for 'that's inaccurate' or 'prove it!' or something to that affect.

[zalanii]

Sucks to be you?

 

So I shouldn't have bought the game called SWTOR that promised me an MMO and instead be butthurt that I didn't get a single player game and force everyone down to my level?

 

Oh let's not forget that if this was KOTOR 3 I'd be pissed off that they've contradicted the entire game. People complain about WoW? HA!

Edited November 8, 2015 by zalanii

[Djiini]

So I shouldn't have bought the game called SWTOR that promised me an MMO and instead be butthurt that I didn't get a single player game and force everyone down to my level?

 

That is correct.