Savej Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 How are the changes pvp-focused? Just because we don't hear them doesn't mean our pve enemies aren't complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 It's funny how you ask where are the nerfs and then only describe the changes to two of the classes and leaving out the third that is actually getting nerfed. Clearly the real nerf is for the sorc/sage healers. Whether or not you agree with the nerf but reduced energy regeneration and increased skill costs (even with higher heal output) clearly makes the sorc healer really have to change their rotation. I won't say I will have to relearn my class entirely but I do see this: The sorc/sage currently has the easiest force management. Objectively that has to be the conclusion, as long as you have the set bonuses. We are now moving the class to being a lot less forgiving in that area. The force you gain back at most is 10% of your total but has a casting time of 2 seconds. Basically you'll get just enough to cast one heal skill again and more importantly it's your only way of regaining force. You see, I also have merc and operative healers (and rep versions) and both those classes have a "oh ****" skill to save them with a good chunk of energy being given back in one shot, just with a fairly long CD so you can't use it too often. The sorc will not get this clearly. Take the merc for example, it has the help we're screwed skill, has a costless skill that helps reduce energy and can build up 10 stacks that can be converted in regaining energy or reducing heat as per the class. Basically 3 methods of helping with energy management. The sorc has one. Add to that the squishiness sorcs have in pve content and I will be very interested to see how this is going to work out as far as people liking to play the class. I really think that what the sorc will need is one of those "oh ****" skills for those unexpected moments and then we see it again....we are making classes more alike again, losing the flavour as they crunch numbers. Does BW get it's not just about the numbers but also about enjoying the way a class works and what makes it special? I also worry about the burst heal capabilities when energy management is done by a 2 second cast that allows you to cast 1 skill again, because that's what it's going to be if you are ever low on energy (dps causes healing grief, you got killed and ressed, etc). Will the sorc be able to get him/herself out of that hole with this 2 second cast skill? Not convinced at the moment. Ummm didn't i read that it can be an instant cast still..u may want to read the whole thing again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnotshrek Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 How are the changes pvp-focused? Just because we don't hear them doesn't mean our pve enemies aren't complaining. Yeah its pretty hilarious to me that the op of this thread didn't even bother to mention why he feels these changes were made for PvP. Healers are actually quite well balanced in PvP atm, merc heals might benefit from a slight buff, but sorcs and operatives are both completely fine. Neither class is particularly overpowered, and each has specific advantages and disadvantages, making them both viable. With that being said, I agree with the OP that these changes seem pretty dumb. Despite what some awful players say, healers are absolutely not overpowered in this game, and these changes just feel like needless tinkering that does little more than continue the trend of class homogenization we've seen since 3.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Ummm didn't i read that it can be an instant cast still..u may want to read the whole thing again The Consumption effect of Force Surge has been removed and redesigned with Consuming Darkness: Consuming Darkness restores 5 additional Force and reduces activation time by 0.25 seconds for each of the first two Force Surge charges, or makes it activate instantly with the third charge. Consumes all charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevenavasovic Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Ummm didn't i read that it can be an instant cast still..u may want to read the whole thing again It can be yes, you just get less force if you use it as an instant skill. And we'll already run force negative so 3 stacks of Force surge will be out "Oh S***" button to use. Which isn't really to our adventage. Almost none of these changes are. So what that means is very little sorcs who know what they're doing, and can predict damage are gonna use it on that unless it's absolutely necessary. Edited June 4, 2015 by nevenavasovic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 It can be yes, you just get less force if you use it as an instant skill. And we'll already run force negative so 3 stacks of Force surge will be out "Oh S***" button to use. Which isn't really to our adventage. Almost none of these changes are. So what that means is very little sorcs who know what they're doing, and can predict damage are gonna use it on that unless it's absolutely necessary. But it says you get more force if using when you have stacks? Did they say they are putting a cooldown on the skill like the other two skills u are referencing? Maybe i need to re read the notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevenavasovic Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) But it says you get more force if using when you have stacks? Did they say they are putting a cooldown on the skill like the other two skills u are referencing? Maybe i need to re read the notes Ok so I think this is what's going on with that. Can't get on PST yet so I can't verify 100% but... "The Consumption effect of Force Surge has been removed and redesigned with Consuming Darkness: Consuming Darkness restores 5 additional Force and reduces activation time by 0.25 seconds for each of the first two Force Surge charges, or makes it activate instantly with the third charge. Consumes all charges." So basically, If I have 2 stacks of Force Surge that means I can use Con. Dark. for +5 force for each stack (total 10) thus reducing cast time from 2 seconds to. 1.5 seconds. OR I can use all 3 stacks, make it instant but not get +5 on the first two stacks. And if that's how it is, then sorcs have an option to get base cost of 30, +10 (with two stacks of Force Surge) + 10 ( 4pc bonus). OR we get +30 (base) +10 (4pc) with 3 stacks of Force Surge for instant cast. Edited June 4, 2015 by nevenavasovic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Ok so I think this is what's going on with that. Can't get on PST yet so I can't verify 100% but... "The Consumption effect of Force Surge has been removed and redesigned with Consuming Darkness: Consuming Darkness restores 5 additional Force and reduces activation time by 0.25 seconds for each of the first two Force Surge charges, or makes it activate instantly with the third charge. Consumes all charges." So basically, If I have 2 stacks of Force Surge that means I can use Con. Dark. for +5 force for each stack (total 10) thus reducing cast time from 2 seconds to. 1.5 seconds. OR I can use all 3 stacks, make it instant but not get +5 on the first two stacks. And if that's how it is, then sorcs have an option to get base cost of 30, +10 (with two stacks of Force Surge) + 10 ( 4pc bonus). OR we get +30 (base) +10 (4pc) with 3 stacks of Force Surge for instant cast. Well i see where you're coming from now. But i read it as 3 stacks is instant but you only get +10 instead of +15. When u test it please mention how it works on the forums. Also, if you are correct i would only try and use it with 2 stacks because it would be a 1.5 sec cast you can do while moving which is imo is just an instant cast that could be interrupted Edited June 4, 2015 by masstershake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevenavasovic Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Well i see where you're coming from now. But i read it as 3 stacks is instant but you only get +10 instead of +15. When u test it please mention how it works on the forums. Also, if you are correct i would only try and use it with 2 stacks because it would be a 1.5 sec cast you can do while moving which is imo is just an instant cast that could be interrupted I see where you were going with but if that was the case then there'd be no point in separating it like that. There'd be no point to 1.5 second reduction from 2 seconds. If it activated instantly at 3, then you'd get an instant cast with +10 (for the first two stacks). So it'd be either 2 seconds or Instant. No in between. Once the PTS opens I'll check but so far it seems to me that's how it'll play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 These sorc changes don't really look any better than the last time they proposed them. Pretty much the only difference is the specifics of the set bonuses and utility changes. What is the point of these changes? If you want to make the force management harder why not increase costs and/or put consumption/noble sacrifice back on the GCD instead? What purpose does redesigning so much of the force management have? More specifically, what purpose does having a cast time on "consuming darkness" have? Sure, it can be removed with the stacks (please word that description better, it's poorly written and rather ambiguous) but why have it in the default case? Can the devs actually answer what they're trying to accomplish this time around? "Increasing burst" is not an explanation for what they've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwarzchild Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I'm actually pretty interested in the operative changes. It seems like these changes may make my class insanely strong healers. If I'm understanding these notes correctly, I'm going to see a lot heavier burst than I'm used to coming from my class all while keeping/ slightly increasing my mobility, and allowing me to switch to the new full 6 piece set bonus instead of the old 186 2 piece. Seems like this could be very very cool for us operatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerba Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Can't complain, the Scoundrel changes look good to me. More burst healing and an overall boost to all the procs, which is exactly what was needed. It looks much better than those 3.2.1 changes they had planned. Haven't looked at the Sage/Commando changes yet though. Edited June 4, 2015 by Jerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Every round of major changes (nerfs) to PVE players have the same cause: PVP. But but no sane person asked for these changes in pvp... At least not a sorc dps offheal buff and merc buff/nerf. So this is bs. Or just a Biowares way to "balance". Edited June 4, 2015 by Glower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Yea.. 2 sec channel on consumption seems a tad silly and I hate that change myself. I'm against that part of the change. Maybe a CD that prevents you from using it again for 2 seconds is more appropriate. If they are trying to prevent people just spamming that and not using in a rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 When the hell are they they going to separate the PVP abilities from PVE abilities, for once and for all? Patch notes here Every round of major changes (nerfs) to PVE players have the same cause: PVP. Please find me ONE thread where a PvPer asked for the freaking Commando nerfs. Just ONE. ONE only. Don't blame PvP for Bioware's inexplicable changes...the healing nerf is 99% likely due to too much off healing in PvE, nothing to do with PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 When the hell are they they going to separate the PVP abilities from PVE abilities, for once and for all? Patch notes here Every round of major changes (nerfs) to PVE players have the same cause: PVP. Why do you think these changes were PvP focused? These changes have PvE written all over them, especially the nerf to Merc/Mandos who are currently the worst Healers at the moment in Yolo. I would love to see a better separation of PvP and PvE builds/abilities for all ACs. The Combat Devs, (who are primarily PvE-oriented), had a great opportunity to do that with the advent of Disciplines, but failed demonstrably. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrevox Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 That's more of a problem when you run with random elitist snobs who very stupidly don't care about the skill of the player or other intelligent qualifiers like gear, experience (run this op before or not), etc. There will always be the flavor of the month for simple and/or elitists who want to 'theoretically' be the 'best' despite that to be the best with a class/role you need to put in the time to master it not just show up in the same outfit like the best. TLDR: Putting on a pair of air jordan's never made anyone play like mike. ^^Agree totally. If a class is deemed "overpowered" that usually means it is over performing what it should be. That doesn't mean the other classes can't do the job if played properly. When snipers were at the top, people rushed to level a sniper because they thought they would instantly be great. It doesn't work that way. As far as the original post, making 2 separate balancing systems, they have already said "not going to happen". If I'm not mistaken they even said it again in the "Bad Feeling Podcast" with Alex and Eric. I feel your pain, and you absolutely get to express your dislike for the changes, but they are not going to split them up. Just send them ideas you like and hope for the best. I play sorc/sage and merc/commando heals mostly in PVE and I will wait to see how they play before I get all upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valandril Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Not at all. just add a tab to create new PVP abilities for PVP zones / servers, and leave PVE ones as they are. You are free to ignore the reality if that makes you sleep better at night. Ok getting way off topic but just for instance. You are on an open world pvp server. You are running around doing your dailies when you get jumped. You then drop an AoE to finish off the mobs and damage the ones who attacked you. How exactly do you want the server to handle that action? Does it give PvP damage to the mobs? Does it give PvE damage to the player(s) you jumped you? Does it do independent calculations based on type in the AoE? And that is an extremely simplified example of why it would be like maintaining two games and why the systems should never be separated. It is far more than just "adding a tab" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtJeremy Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 How are the changes pvp-focused? Just because we don't hear them doesn't mean our pve enemies aren't complaining. Any and all changes will be blamed on PvP. Just, just do it. PvP sucks because of PvE, PvE sucks because of PvP. That is the status quo around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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