LukeTheGeek Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 So, my guild is tired of farming bosses week in week out and we want to make some money from it. Is there a rule in the ToS that forbids us from making a deal with a pug wherein they give us credits in exchange for loot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filnov Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) As long as it doesn't contain exchange for real life money and clear rules are known beforehand, it should be fine, people do it all the time, especially for NiM mounts etc. Edited May 25, 2015 by filnov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manco-capac Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Giving the loot to a pug for creds is no more against the ToS than selling sorc pulls to fleet datacron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptRogue Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Zorz used to do it all the time, many other guilds too. They also sell specific things in the runs. Just charge heavily for it. lol But to charge for it, you must be very good, & capable of carrying anyone through the said ops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaacone Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I dont believe its against the tos. Ive heard of it being done before. Me personally I dont like the idea behind it. I'd rather take someone who is new for free so that they know what the ops is like. Besides charging someone to join your guild in one of its runs kind of sounds like a scumbag thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henge_Wolf Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I'm almost tempted to ask which server/side you play on, as I'm horrible at raiding/ops (admittedly I don't put the time in, but underlurker just seemed impossible the other day, dodge the rock, hide behind the rock, dps the adds, but they are killing you at the same time, always stay on his left side even though he's running circles, stay in the box, move out of the box, I don't know). They "explained" the fight in about three lines of text then wondered why I couldn't get it down after like three tries. Unless I got a bunch of gear out of it though, it wouldn't be worth it, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't afford it anyway. I just joined a guild, maybe they'll take me with them sometime if I ask nicely. I almost hate to say it, but this game needs a "looking for raid" just for pugs. Give me 190/192 gear, I don't care, it's still a minor upgrade. I'd like to see the content without the hassle of beastly unforgiving mechanics or bribing someone to finish up for me while I lie there dead. People in WoW cried a lot about LFR but I never set foot in that part of the game until it was introduced, so how could I call it a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkii_boy Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 This is perfectly fine as long as its in return for in-game money. Take a quick look at some of the server forums, there are a couple of progression guilds already selling ops runs and their loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kufuffelupagus Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 It is not against ToS to sell runs for credits. I dont believe its against the tos. Ive heard of it being done before. Me personally I dont like the idea behind it. I'd rather take someone who is new for free so that they know what the ops is like. Besides charging someone to join your guild in one of its runs kind of sounds like a scumbag thing to do. Read the title- they want to SELL runs to willing buyers, not charge any old person to join their run. There are many players who are willing to pay for the run (in which they get loot) and they have expressed gratitude to the people providing the service. Obviously not a scumbag thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Most of the issue of gearing would be settled by joining a guild. Never knew why people pay for this stuff. Plus no one advertising sales on JC so I think it's other server thing. As for the NiM stuff I don't know how you can sit with it knowing you didn't earn it with any skill. But I digress. Personally I would rather never get something than pay someone to "carry" me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulyok Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I'd gladly pay people to carry me through the ops for achievement decorations - that means extra prestige score. But when I think about waiting for an hour, then listening to TC for hours... gods, no, I'd rather have my 20th alt chase Skavak again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstienos Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Nope why would there be a rule against it? As long as all transactions stay within the game it is allowed. Same as selling a gear drop of mealstrom prison on the GTN in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I never understood why the Decos from NiM are not sellable on the GTN but you can still trade them in game for credits. Huh Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Problem is, who delivers first, since there is no in-game mechanism for enforcing inter-player contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayneneverwind Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) OP: As stated by several posts already, as long as the payment is in-game currency and there's no real life monetary transactions, you should be fine to encourage your guild to start helping out both you and your community with this service. My guilds on the Harbinger do the very thing you're asking about. As the person who coordinates all vanity and gear sales for my teams, I would encourage you to keep these few points in mind if your guild begins to offer this service. 1) Make sure you have a solid team, both reliable and easily reached, who can clear this content with ease multiple times a week. There is nothing worse than having a player (we call them clients) show up to their run and you're scrambling around trying to find last minute fill-ins. Believe it or not, having an air of professionalism much like in a real world business transaction will go a VERY long way. 2) Settle on a fair price point. We have guilds here on Harbinger who offer Full Resurrected Gear runs for upwards of 14 mil per character. These guilds, however, have a well known name (much like you'd expect for an Apple iPhone to cost more than a Wal-mart Pay-as-you-go phone) and that's a factor into the price as well. I'd encourage you to do some market research and see what the other progression guilds on your server AND faction are offering, and then do some competitive pricing. 3) Determine -exactly- what your buyer receives in their purchased run. Do they get all the deco drops? Is it just a specific mount? Do they get just the unassembled tokens and the non set pieces go to the team? Be sure to be very clear in what you're selling to each player, otherwise that could lead to miscommunication -- and unhappy players. 4) Have some way to keep track of all your upcoming sales. We use a Google Doc that everyone on my teams has access to view. It's color coordinated to ensure we know when we're running Imperial and when we're running Republic. We also have tabs of our main raiders' alts and roles, so we know if we need a tank and our main tank's locked out that week, we can pull someone else who can fill that role. This ensures that your team is always in the loop. Whether or not they actually keep up with this schedule, however, is not your department. 5) Determine payment and loot distribution. Some guilds do payment up front. Others payment at the end. To us, we believe the most fair is at the end as we deliver the promised gear/mount/etc. If we're running someone through Temple and Ravagers, we'll hold onto all the unassembled tokens until the end of each op. Then as we're setting up for the next one, we trade half payment for the loot that dropped in the op and repeat at the end of the next. You and your team will have to come up with a system that best suits your team and what you're selling, but there are options out there. If anything at all, making sure you can solidly stand behind the team doing the runs will be the best thing you can do to market yourself and your guild. If your raiders can't clear Underlurker in 8m story mode, you should not be offering full clears for payment. Same goes with any of the old 55 ops as well. If your team has yet to down NiM Brontes, you shouldn't offer Wings of the Architect or Gate Crasher clears. Otherwise, good luck! This can be a great service to your community while funding your guild's progression repair funds at the same time. [EDIT]: Added another point as afterthought. Edited May 26, 2015 by rayneneverwind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainot-keel Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Most of the issue of gearing would be settled by joining a guild. Never knew why people pay for this stuff. Plus no one advertising sales on JC so I think it's other server thing. As for the NiM stuff I don't know how you can sit with it knowing you didn't earn it with any skill. But I digress. Personally I would rather never get something than pay someone to "carry" me. TBH, if I found something questionable abou this practice (which I don't) I would rather chastise and pass judgement on those facilitating and making profit out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumajin Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) There's no ToS rule against it as long as you guys are good enough to deliver what you charge for, or you don't charge for it afterward as a result of failing to deliver. Also, as long as the payment is only via -in-game credits and not in a Real World cash exchange, you're fine. Dungeon run selling via in-game currency takes place in all major MMOs, and has never been cited as a violation of ToS that I can recall. Edited May 26, 2015 by Jumajin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 TBH, if I found something questionable abou this practice (which I don't) I would rather chastise and pass judgement on those facilitating and making profit out of this. Personally for me I couldn't sit with myself if I bought the Wings of Architect and Sat on fleet like I earned them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianDmitruk Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Personally for me I couldn't sit with myself if I bought the Wings of Architect and Sat on fleet like I earned them. I think this kind of thing appeals more to people who either a) have way more credits than they know what to do with, and would rather spend the credits legit than sell them to a RMT broker, b) are in a guild for social purposes but wish to engage in other activities that are beyond the guild's capabilities, or c) both. For example, I'm in a very small guild on BC. We mostly PVP, and we have fun. But I do like to do ops on the side. However, HM ops pugs simply don't happen on my server, unless they're for obsolete ops, so I've only been able to do the 55 and 60 ops on SM. I hear Harby has more HM ops, but I don't want to leave my guild on BC. Moreover, I work two jobs, so my schedule won't allow me to commit to a set raid schedule on a prog team even if I go out of guild. I probably could clear HM content if my schedule allowed it, and if my guild had the organizational capabilities and will to do so...however much I enjoy my guildies, they're more into PVP partly because the barriers to entry (esp. scheduling) are lower. I have done raid content when current before, but the last chance I really had to do that was about 1.5. Moreover, I'm big into strongholds, but I won't purchase a decoration that drops from content that I haven't cleared, so some of the really nice NiM centerpieces are out for me. So for people like me who would like to raid but can't really schedule for it, the idea of paying a progression guild to work around you/your schedule can be appealing. My guild already knows I'm saving up for some "space tourism," as I've called it, of this nature. As for the feeling of getting carried and such...well let's just say that 1) I usually get whispered upon login asking if I can come dps(! aren't we a dime a dozen?) a GF op at least once a week now,, sometimes filling the last spot in what would otherwise be some other guild's run, so at least I know I'm not a total derp, and 2) I'll have starparse open during the ops-for-hire so I can measure just how hard I'm being carried by the guild I'd be hiring. To those who don't get why people would pay for this kind of thing instead of joining a raiding guild, it basically lets you stick your foot into the water to say "I've done/experienced this" without forcing you to abandon your guild/friends in game who have other priorities. Oh, and for those of us who can't commit to set schedules, and historically have unlucky loot rolls, being able to pay someone else for giving the finger to RNGesus is an extra bonus. Edited May 27, 2015 by AdrianDmitruk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Personally for me I couldn't sit with myself if I bought the Wings of Architect and Sat on fleet like I earned them. "Earned?" You mean like working hard at playing a computer game? There's no ToS rule against it as long as you guys are good enough to deliver what you charge for, or you don't charge for it afterward as a result of failing to deliver. Neither would that be a violation, any more than someone looting a guild vault is a violation. That's why the question of "who delivers first?" is an issue. Edited May 27, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallerine Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 "Earned?" You mean like working hard at playing a computer game? Well yeah, "working hard" would be putting time and effort into something, even if it's playing a computer game. After a while, you get an item and you may feel you've earned it. Have you even played a video game before? Ever completed one? Neither would that be a violation, any more than someone looting a guild vault is a violation. That's why the question of "who delivers first?" is an issue. It may not violate the TOS, but it violates the Rules of Conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) It may not violate the TOS, but it violates the Rules of Conduct. Which one? Edited May 27, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallerine Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Which one? Do anything that interferes with the ability of other Service users to enjoy playing Star Wars: The Old Republic 5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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