Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[ajjw]

Are there any people watching this thread that having programming experience and could shed some light on what might be going on here? I'm really perplexed by this.

 

I would have thought a sensible way to assign damage and animations would be once a skill has been pressed there's a delay timer set off for the damage, and then the animation is played. So, even if that animation is changed to the next skill, the delay on the damage would never be affected, it would always hit a certain time after a skill is used.

 

Whereas what seems to be happening is the damage isn't assigned to the end of the animation, and if you're using a ranged weapon, it's not until that particle hits the enemy.

 

Is it possible they've just got the delay wrong between skills or would they have actually linked to the animation length?

Doing a Master's in computer programming with high hopes of moving on to do my PHD.

 

This is best explanation I can think of:

 

In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

 

In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately.

 

In programming terms, it's like this:

 

WoW - Press button -> Begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes, do damage/heal -> If a new button is pressed now, end old animation and jump to start

 

SWTOR - Press button -> begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes -> Finish playing animation -> Do damage/heal

 

Note that in WoW the actual effect of a skill goes through when the CAST TIME finishes, whereas in SWTOR the effect goes through when the ANIMATION finishes, and in WoW you can end an animation prematurely whereas in SWTOR an animation locks you out of casting new spells.

 

This is where the feeling of a disconnect from your character comes from - The UI is saying you can cast another ability now, but you can't because the old animation is still playing.

Edited December 27, 2011 by ajjw

[Xcore]

My character was unresponsive as hell particularly in flashpoints as a tank, I changed the queue to 0.0, my character responds perfectly (except when my framerate is taxed or my connection is lagging). The problem described by the OP has been eliminated for me.

 

I'm not derailing the thread, I was reporting my success with regards to the OP. That is all I came here to do irregardless of what the rest of the people in the thread are discussing.

 

Going from 1.0 or 0.5 (Default) to 0.0 "Does" help in terms of ability queuing. In the sense that now there is no half-second queuing and thus it makes it feel "initially" more responsive. However, this has nothing at all to do with the core issue of animation length, cast bars, animation clipping etc. etc. (much more to list, thus read a bit of the thread).

 

To be more clear, 0.0 helps ability queuing but this isn't a queuing issue it is an ability execution issue as well as linking several abilities (as in a tight and continuous rotation), your solution is addressing only 50% of the issue and thus the problem persists. Because (just 1 example) Animation Lengths (endings) go past the cast time...

[Sanchpanza]

Doing a Master's in computer programming with high hopes of moving on to do my PHD.

 

This is best explanation I can think of:

 

In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

 

In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately.

 

In programming terms, it's like this:

 

WoW - Press button -> Begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes, do damage/heal -> If a new button is pressed now, end old animation and jump to start

 

SWTOR - Press button -> begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes -> Finish playing animation -> Do damage/heal

 

Note that in WoW the actual effect of a skill goes through when the CAST TIME finishes, whereas in SWTOR the effect goes through when the ANIMATION finishes, and in WoW you can end an animation prematurely whereas in SWTOR an animation locks you out of casting new spells.

 

This is where the feeling of a disconnect from your character comes from - The UI is saying you can cast another ability now, but you can't because the old animation is still playing.

 

Yeah that's what I thought it looked like.

 

The next question is...is it fixable?

[Nightrode]

Doing a Master's in computer programming with high hopes of moving on to do my PHD.

 

This is best explanation I can think of:

 

In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

 

In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately.

 

In programming terms, it's like this:

 

WoW - Press button -> Begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes, do damage/heal -> If a new button is pressed now, end old animation and jump to start

 

SWTOR - Press button -> begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes -> Finish playing animation -> Do damage/heal

 

Note that in WoW the actual effect of a skill goes through when the CAST TIME finishes, whereas in SWTOR the effect goes through when the ANIMATION finishes, and in WoW you can end an animation prematurely whereas in SWTOR an animation locks you out of casting new spells.

 

This is where the feeling of a disconnect from your character comes from - The UI is saying you can cast another ability now, but you can't because the old animation is still playing.

 

The highlighted part is perfect. This post needs to be directed somewhere on the OP because it explains it perfectly.

[Fellthar]

Please read the first 50 pages of this thread. I called you a troll because the argument that you bring up has be disproved about 30 times already in this thread and it has been shown that this setting has nothing to do with the delay we are referring to. If you have read the first 50 pages, maybe you wouldn't have posted such a retarded response and I could have avoided calling you a troll.

 

I was responding to the OP, and in the OP he perfectly described the issue I *was* having, and the issue that I am no longer having. It doesn't matter to me if the thread evolved to discover something else.

 

People jump on me like vultures because I came to a thread to talk about an issue that was resolved for me, responding only to the OP of the thread. Someone said it wasn't resolved for me because it wasn't for them, and I in turn responded in kind.

 

Why don't you all just back off? Please move on and discuss your other issues, I am not trying to be involved in your discussion about whatever else they may be.

[Arkimor]

I was really enjoying playing this game when i come from work but honestly for two days(since the issue become obvious and starts to annoy me too much) I started to play another games and just checking SWTOR forums to find about if there is any official respond.Since, there is none I am goin back to CoD hehe:D

 

Same. I just got done playing some TF2 and now I'm bouncing around forums and my music.

 

My character was unresponsive as hell particularly in flashpoints as a tank, I changed the queue to 0.0, my character responds perfectly (except when my framerate is taxed or my connection is lagging). The problem described by the OP has been eliminated for me.

 

I'm not derailing the thread, I was reporting my success with regards to the OP. That is all I came here to do irregardless of what the rest of the people in the thread are discussing.

 

Thank you for your run-down. I hope it helps people, I really do. Sadly, this "fix" doesn't solve the problem for everyone and the problem still exists.

 

Again, thank you for your useful post (not sarcasm).

 

Self-defense at this point, from people like you.

 

Truth hurts. If you learned to properly express your point and not get so defensive you might have better luck on the internet.

 

Doing a Master's in computer programming with high hopes of moving on to do my PHD.

 

This is best explanation I can think of:

 

In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

 

In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately.

 

In programming terms, it's like this:

 

WoW - Press button -> Begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes, do damage/heal -> If a new button is pressed now, end old animation and jump to start

 

SWTOR - Press button -> begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes -> Finish playing animation -> Do damage/heal

 

Note that in WoW the actual effect of a skill goes through when the CAST TIME finishes, whereas in SWTOR the effect goes through when the ANIMATION finishes, and in WoW you can end an animation prematurely whereas in SWTOR an animation locks you out of casting new spells.

 

This is where the feeling of a disconnect from your character comes from - The UI is saying you can cast another ability now, but you can't because the old animation is still playing.

 

I enjoy this post because it's just fact; there's no opinion here. Good job.

 

EDIT:

 

Going from 1.0 or 0.5 (Default) to 0.0 "Does" help in terms of ability queuing. In the sense that now there is no half-second queuing and thus it makes it feel "initially" more responsive. However, this has nothing at all to do with the core issue of animation length, cast bars, animation clipping etc. etc. (much more to list, thus read a bit of the thread).

 

To be more clear, 0.0 helps ability queuing but this isn't a queuing issue it is an ability execution issue as well as linking several abilities (as in a tight and continuous rotation), your solution is addressing only 50% of the issue and thus the problem persists. Because (just 1 example) Animation Lengths (endings) go past the cast time...

 

Well stated.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Arkimor

[aureliastarr]

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but if not it needs to be.

 

The reason why so many of us are upset about this fluidity problem ACTUALLY comes down more to the philosophy of what a "game" is.

 

In a game, you create a set of rules by which all the players must abide. These rules are predetermined and clearly set. They may be as complicated as you choose to make them, but they are the rules which everyone agrees to and plays with.

 

What the developer chose to do whether consciously or subconsciously is first use many of the same rule sets of many other MMOs (GCDs, cast times, targeting systems, hit/miss/parry, etc) and then subordinated them to something external to the rule set and wholly arbitrary in many cases. GCD might be finished, but we are suddenly in some non-rule set state whereby we cannot perform our next action due to an arbitrary whim. It leaves the structure of the game for that moment as we are subjected to something outside of the game. It's like watching a cutscene midfight.

[Xcore]

Another option mentioned (though messy) would be to extend the cast bars to allow the entire animation to run its course. Now this has several implications such as damage over the cast time, and would actually lead to changes to the channeled abilities (because of the now longer cast time), but this of course only fixes the casting problems, not the back-to-back ability usage.

 

I honestly think if all the animations were cut short for the sake of game play, the game would still alright.

 

I too think extending cast times to match animations is the wrong direction, it will feel "correct" but even more sluggish and slow. Allowing abilities to clip endings of previous abilities as well as cutting the animations short perhaps?

 

I don't see Bioware touching animations much though... as you pointed out, that would almost admit failure/fault and waste of resources?

 

I think part of this entire issue is Bioware's inexperience in MMO Gaming, I am very surprised by this as they really wanted to emulate WoW yet missed the absolute most important part? Anyways, I am not about to bash Bioware, they still have a chance to be the good guys here

[Fellthar]

Going from 1.0 or 0.5 (Default) to 0.0 "Does" help in terms of ability queuing. In the sense that now there is no half-second queuing and thus it makes it feel "initially" more responsive. However, this has nothing at all to do with the core issue of animation length, cast bars, animation clipping etc. etc. (much more to list, thus read a bit of the thread).

 

To be more clear, 0.0 helps ability queuing but this isn't a queuing issue it is an ability execution issue as well as linking several abilities (as in a tight and continuous rotation), your solution is addressing only 50% of the issue and thus the problem persists. Because (just 1 example) Animation Lengths (endings) go past the cast time...

 

I get it that it doesn't fix some other issue that some other people are having, but I was just reporting that this is what fixes the problems I was having with this. Can we be done with this now?

[nezitx]

Doing a Master's in computer programming with high hopes of moving on to do my PHD.

 

This is best explanation I can think of:

 

In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

 

In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately.

 

In programming terms, it's like this:

 

WoW - Press button -> Begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes, do damage/heal -> If a new button is pressed now, end old animation and jump to start

 

SWTOR - Press button -> begin cast time & animation -> Cast time finishes -> Finish playing animation -> Do damage/heal

 

Note that in WoW the actual effect of a skill goes through when the CAST TIME finishes, whereas in SWTOR the effect goes through when the ANIMATION finishes, and in WoW you can end an animation prematurely whereas in SWTOR an animation locks you out of casting new spells.

 

This is where the feeling of a disconnect from your character comes from - The UI is saying you can cast another ability now, but you can't because the old animation is still playing.

 

I'm going to have to disagree for two reasons:

1) Using a bunch of alacrity can have me casting a spell faster than it normally does (say 1.0 seconds instead of 1.5) and there is no .5 delay. It appears to "speed up" the animation but regardless it doesn't seem to get in the way.

 

2) If I am doing the above, and I use a 1/2 cast time Force Lightning (which will be 1.5 seconds channel before Alacrity) I may only see a small fraction of the animation/channel because it's so short - but the damage is there. It's not perfect by any means, but the old animation is not actually preventing me from doing it.

 

In short I just don't think the problem is directly linked to animations as you describe.

[Scelerant]

Are there any people watching this thread that having programming experience and could shed some light on what might be going on here? I'm really perplexed by this.

 

I would have thought a sensible way to assign damage and animations would be once a skill has been pressed there's a delay timer set off for the damage, and then the animation is played. So, even if that animation is changed to the next skill, the delay on the damage would never be affected, it would always hit a certain time after a skill is used.

 

Whereas what seems to be happening is the damage isn't assigned to the end of the animation, and if you're using a ranged weapon, it's not until that particle hits the enemy.

 

Is it possible they've just got the delay wrong between skills or would they have actually linked to the animation length?

 

My experience is somewhat limited, but in essence what is usually done is that the projectile has a hitbox and the target has a hitbox and when those 2 collide an effect happens.

 

What could be the challenge is if they have it hardcoded somewhere that an animation has to finish playing before a new animation can start and then tied that to the global somehow.

 

If I'm correct about this, this is how the chain of events would be in the code very very simplified.

 

Player presses ability 1

 

Ability 1 animation starts playing/Damage is applied at suitable point

 

Player presses ability 2:

 

Game checks if the global allows it. If yes, cast ability, if no give error message and cancel ability 2.

Game checks if the animation has finished. If Yes cast ability, if no give error message and cancel ability 2.

 

Ability 2 animation starts playing/damage is applied.

 

If this is how it works, what they need to do is to allow an ability to go through and give visual confirmation to the player if the global allows it by either breaking in the first animation or by tightening up the animations to a point where none of them are longer than their global/cast time.

[Nightrode]

I too think extending cast times to match animations is the wrong direction, it will feel "correct" but even more sluggish and slow. Allowing abilities to clip endings of previous abilities as well as cutting the animations short perhaps?

 

I don't see Bioware touching animations much though... as you pointed out, that would almost admit failure/fault and waste of resources?

 

I think part of this entire issue is Bioware's inexperience in MMO Gaming, I am very surprised by this as they really wanted to emulate WoW yet missed the absolute most important part? Anyways, I am not about to bash Bioware, they still have a chance to be the good guys here

 

I feel the same way about a lot of issues in the game. I think this is a big one they should of implemented as one of the high-points of WoW, instead of trying to go on their own. It's asking "Why take away something that isn't broken, in fact, perfect?"

[JediMasterShake]

This post, the spreading of awareness of this fatal deficiency, marks the beginning of the end of TOR. Considering how vastly similar WOW and TOR are structured, to think it could survive this deep and profound a flaw is delusional.

 

Yes, this game did many things truly excellently, but at its core -its endgame - it is a raiding/pvp battleground game, just like WOW. And it handles like a station wagon while WOW is an indycar.

 

I'd say the half life of this game is about 3 months. Subs will peak in January, and half will be gone by April 1.

[Xcore]

The highlighted part is perfect. This post needs to be directed somewhere on the OP because it explains it perfectly.

 

I have done exactly this, please see OP at bottom I added "Notable Mentions" and this I agree is a perfect explanation...

[Fellthar]

Truth hurts. If you learned to properly express your point and not get so defensive you might have better luck on the internet.

.

 

How exactly does one not get defensive when people call me a troll and say I don't know what I am talking about because I reported that the issue described by the OP was fixed for me?

 

No, please, don't answer that. In fact, let's just end the discussion here. Your right, I shouldn't have fallen into this trap to begin with.

[TripleOG]

I was responding to the OP, and in the OP he perfectly described the issue I *was* having, and the issue that I am no longer having. It doesn't matter to me if the thread evolved to discover something else.

 

People jump on me like vultures because I came to a thread to talk about an issue that was resolved for me, responding only to the OP of the thread. Someone said it wasn't resolved for me because it wasn't for them, and I in turn responded in kind.

 

Why don't you all just back off? Please move on and discuss your other issues, I am not trying to be involved in your discussion about whatever else they may be.

 

Dude you were the one trying to blame the issue on FPS and latency. You simply disregarded anything that was previously stated and said "its not my problem if you have FPS and latency issues", you deserved everything you got. I have been contributing to this thread in a constructive manner unlike you and focusing on the issue at hand.

[Xcore]

I get it that it doesn't fix some other issue that some other people are having, but I was just reporting that this is what fixes the problems I was having with this. Can we be done with this now?

 

Sure, I'm just trying to help you...

[chrwe]

Thankyou, OP, for putting the issue into words. It really is a problem. Hopefully Bioware will adress it very soon.

[Arkimor]

I too think extending cast times to match animations is the wrong direction, it will feel "correct" but even more sluggish and slow. Allowing abilities to clip endings of previous abilities as well as cutting the animations short perhaps?

 

I don't see Bioware touching animations much though... as you pointed out, that would almost admit failure/fault and waste of resources?

 

I think part of this entire issue is Bioware's inexperience in MMO Gaming, I am very surprised by this as they really wanted to emulate WoW yet missed the absolute most important part? Anyways, I am not about to bash Bioware, they still have a chance to be the good guys here

 

Agree on every point.

 

The game is disappointing right now, sure, but it's also a freshly released MMO. Best way to judge a MMO is to see it at launch, and see it 6 months after. After that 6 months is when you can really get a true hold of the game and it's devs. Now that is being on the extreme safe side too; something like sluggish combat needs to be fixed within the first 60 days or the game is pretty much wrecked.

 

I'm giving Bioware time to fix many (oh so many) of it's issues before I call it quits; I'm just not as hopeful as I would like to be, sadly.

[ajjw]

I'm going to have to disagree for two reasons:

1) Using a bunch of alacrity can have me casting a spell faster than it normally does (say 1.0 seconds instead of 1.5) and there is no .5 delay. It appears to "speed up" the animation but regardless it doesn't seem to get in the way.

 

2) If I am doing the above, and I use a 1/2 cast time Force Lightning (which will be 1.5 seconds channel before Alacrity) I may only see a small fraction of the animation/channel because it's so short - but the damage is there. It's not perfect by any means, but the old animation is not actually preventing me from doing it.

 

In short I just don't think the problem is directly linked to animations as you describe.

1) If Alacrity already speeds up animations then we're already 50% of the way to fixing this issue, so that's good news.

 

2) Different spells have different animation lengths. Not all animations exceed their cast times, and even then some exceed it more than others. 1 spell is not enough to go by.

[Fellthar]

Dude you were the one trying to blame the issue on FPS and latency. You simply disregarded anything that was previously stated and said "its not my problem if you have FPS and latency issues", you deserved everything you got. I have been contributing to this thread in a constructive manner unlike you and focusing on the issue at hand.

 

No, in fact, I only said that sarcastic comment in response to this:

 

"Playing the same game the rest of us are playing?

 

I have a 0.0 queue as well, always have since I started because initially I thought the queue was the problem. Try pvping or doing anything really, because that does not fix the problem."

 

I highlighted the part that triggered my sarcasm. People jumped on me because they took the conversation out of context when I only directed it at one particular comment, which according to all of you is the crime I myself committed.

 

I tried to contribute to this thread in a constructive manner until I was told outright that my issue could not be fixed by this. How can I contribute then when I am told to be silent because I am simply wrong and you are simply right?

[Technosoft]

I'm going to have to disagree for two reasons:

1) Using a bunch of alacrity can have me casting a spell faster than it normally does (say 1.0 seconds instead of 1.5) and there is no .5 delay. It appears to "speed up" the animation but regardless it doesn't seem to get in the way.

 

2) If I am doing the above, and I use a 1/2 cast time Force Lightning (which will be 1.5 seconds channel before Alacrity) I may only see a small fraction of the animation/channel because it's so short - but the damage is there. It's not perfect by any means, but the old animation is not actually preventing me from doing it.

 

In short I just don't think the problem is directly linked to animations as you describe.

 

It's good to hear from a player who is experienced with Activation speed / Alacrity rating , as i did wonder what impact it would have on the game regarding skill lag / delay.

 

Now all i need to do is level up some more and test it out for myself!

[Fellthar]

Sure, I'm just trying to help you...

 

I apologize, you were actually helpful.

[undeniablyjeff]

I'll get on board this train. I couldn't play WAR for more than a couple weeks for this very reason -- abilities were seriously delayed. Feeling connected to your character is very important, and unfortunately, it's something overlooked by the layman gamer.

 

Down with the 0.5 seconds.

 

/bump

[TripleOG]

No, in fact, I only said that sarcastic comment in response to this:

 

"Playing the same game the rest of us are playing?

 

I have a 0.0 queue as well, always have since I started because initially I thought the queue was the problem. Try pvping or doing anything really, because that does not fix the problem."

 

I highlighted the part that triggered my sarcasm. People jumped on me because they took the conversation out of context when I only directed it at one particular comment, which according to all of you is the crime I myself committed.

 

I tried to contribute to this thread in a constructive manner until I was told outright that my issue could not be fixed by this. How can I contribute then when I am told to be silent because I am simply wrong and you are simply right?

 

 

Ok, you clearly don't get it, so I guess my second assumption was correct.