Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Feskitt]

I have never played that class. I have played inquisitor, trooper and BH. I notice it on all of them (especially the BH).

 

I have a lvl 48 BH Merc arsenal. I don't really notice this "problem." Or if it's there, I've just adapted by using appropriate timing.

 

 

[Halacs]

Video incoming showing you how it should be. Just waiting for it to finish uploading to Youtube. Stay tuned

 

Found another post that had a lot of videos of he problem

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=82842

[Baaddare]

Hello,

 

Before you label me a Troll please read my Early Review here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=76222

 

Note: Please, if you agree with these points and this subject, rate the thread. Perhaps this will raise Bioware's awareness. Anything we can do to make SW:TOR the best it can be because the truth is you and I are here because we want it to succeed and we see it's potential.

 

The game has been out long enough for the masses to finally realize the negatives. As people are getting out of the starting planets and the "new and shiny" feeling starts to subside, the cracks in this new wonderous world are becoming apparent.

 

Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness: -- It is not Latency or FPS Lag

 

I will attempt to discuss this issue and I will do so in a manner that I hope will make everyone understand it better. The "Character Responsiveness" for lack of a better term, is how "smooth" the game plays from your avatars perspective. I have played SWG and EQ to a lesser degree as well as Warhammer Online and several other MMOs and I must honestly say that Bioware has gotten this all too important aspect much better than any previous MMO that I have experienced (with the obvious exception, to which we will get soon).

 

You see, I really want you (The Reader) to understand the importance of this topic. To drive home "how" important this is. In fact I will say this: I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness. All these games failed for many reasons, and a game "can" fail for many reasons and on many fronts but this single-one-category... is by "far" the #1 Reason why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft.

 

Again, I must drive home the fact that no matter if you understand this issue or are new to the subject (and perhaps MMOs) or if you believe the game is fun and enjoyable and think that this is just a vocal minority piping up on something nonsensical. This is the undeniable truth and any game developer or serious gamer worth their salt will agree.

 

 

What is Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay? -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

It is the feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar that is being controlled. Basically, the better the Character Responsiveness is, the smoother the Game Plays! You may HATE World of Warcraft and believe it is the worst abomination on the planet... that is fine. HOWEVER, you "must" objectively admit that it is the absolute, smoothest Character Responsiveness in a Western Available MMO ever.

 

If you are a WoW player, and have played WoW with any amount of skill, competitiveness, you cannot help but cringe when in a Warzone in SW:TOR. It feels unresponsive, frustrating... as if something is wrong with you! but there is nothing you can do about it!

 

If you have never played WoW, perhaps you come from SWG or EQ2 or Rift etc. that is fine! You are WELCOME in this thread, it is not WoW Players against the Rest! I just "need" you to understand that SW:TOR is "noticeably" and "objectively" bad in this crucial department. I am not writing this because I am trolling or because I love WoW, on the contrary. I am doing this because I want SW:TOR to be amazing, I love so many aspects of this great game... but if this is not addressed it "will" die like every other one.

 

 

Why is this "so" important?! -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

From here on I will say 0.5 for emphasis but reality is 0.2, 0.3 (ANY) Ability Delay is unacceptable.

 

And here is the real problem. It is so important because MMO gaming has become so "tight", so competitive and so smooth (through WoW), that it is completely and absolutely unacceptable for an ability or animation to be delayed by 0.5 seconds.

 

0.5 seconds is a lot of time, to our visual cortex. 0.5 seconds is the difference between interrupting a CC of the enemy player or not (and thus being disadvantaged/dying). 0.5 seconds is the difference between landing a Taunt on the "add" that just came into the room and thus having it come to you or it one-shotting your healer and thus wiping on the Boss you've just spent 3 Days wiping to.

 

Zero Point Five Seconds is a ******* Long Time

 

 

Bioware, I plead that you dedicate as many resources as required (all if needed) to address this. You cannot cram story/companions/new flashpoints - operations... Class Balance into patches and hope that is good enough.

 

I hate to be a crazed doomsayer but I must state: Mark my words, if SW:TOR's Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay is not on par with WoW's by March-June it will be just another Rift.

 

Bioware, please see the importance of Character Responsiveness and Visual Stimulation of Ability Animation Correctness. It should be impossible for me to have an ability's cooldown activated without seeing it animate.... this is unacceptable. I just truly hope that this isn't a core coding issue or engine issue, because then we're f'd.

 

 

 

P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.

 

Well all I can say is i have yet to run into any of these issues. Thus I do not think it is an issue with the game.

[Nemmar]

Helped you guys. Did not help my guild, or me or lots of others.

 

Geez you're just in a rampage aren't you?! I will repeat once more. It DOES HELP with the combat responsiveness but it DOESNT fix the issue with the reseting animations.

[Feskitt]

Unfortunately, I think the direction the developers wanted to go with the game is a realistic, animation oriented combat that focuses more on looks and "realism" than responsiveness and accurate timing.

 

And I for one (apparently the only one in this thread) am glad they did.

 

[Halacs]

Geez you're just in a rampage aren't you?! I will repeat once more. It DOES HELP with the combat responsiveness but it DOESNT fix the issue with the reseting animations.

 

I'm not upset at all. Still did not help me out. But keep telling me it does, that should make it all better.

 

 

What server are you on so I can see if that has something to do with it, want to try an alt on one of the servers where folks are unaffected.

 

 

Or I can just try a few servers I suppose.

[SiEDeN]

/bump

[LastOrisan]

I play "competitively" and I destroy people. Like most people, you just refuse to learn and adapt. People like to throw around words like "competitively" and "professional" when it comes to PvP, but i've never seen a "pro" whine like the people in this thread do. That's because "pros" learn, adapt, and then post what they learn so automatons like yourself can finally figure it out. That just happened.

 

Haha this isn't real life son, like law of the jungle or whatever you think it is, it's a game that is trying to compete, obviously, with Wow. And what Wow does well with is combat responsiveness, and if this game doesn't do it well, then it will go the way of the many MMOs before it. It isn't about 'lrn2play', it's about people not wanting to play because they see a game-breaking bug that makes it un-fun to play. Not adaptation in and of itself, it's the reason why we have to adapt.

Edited December 26, 2011 by LastOrisan

[Nightrode]

I play "competitively" and I destroy people. Like most people, you just refuse to learn and adapt. People like to throw around words like "competitively" and "professional" when it comes to PvP, but i've never seen a "pro" whine like the people in this thread do. That's because "pros" learn, adapt, and then post what they learn so automatons like yourself can finally figure it out. That just happened.

 

It doesn't matter I said this already:

 

The ROLE of the GCD is to be the buffer between abilities, NOT their animations and this is what is happening. If you agree with that you're wrong and you support a broken game and if you don't think that's happening you're either bad or naive.

 

THE GCD is 1.5 seconds. There are animations in this game that last LONGER than the GCD and if you try to switch to another ability the problem occurs. You're naive if you think that every animation for each class in the game is the same length for the same type of ability. I can guarentee you that there's a case where one class has one ability animations that is longer than the other. So basicly, what you're saying is it's perfectly okay for him to be screwed just because my classes animation is shorter and thus I can transition to another ability perfect while he can't? **** that ****.

 

You can say "adapt" to the game but it's not acceptable to adapt to a BROKEN game.

 

I'll give you an example: Neilyo. One of the best rogues in WoW PvP. There's a stream of him going into a raid because there's a really good trinket for PvP inside there. He adapted because he's one of the best players in the world, yet he was there in the raid saying "Why do I have to PvE to be the best in PvP? It's dumb."

 

TL;DR: It's not acceptable to adapt to something that is broken.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Nightrode

[Tinkersw]

I'm not upset at all. Still did not help me out. But keep telling me it does, that should make it all better.

 

 

What server are you on so I can see if that has something to do with it, want to try an alt on one of the servers where folks are unaffected.

 

 

Or I can just try a few servers I suppose.

 

I was going to ask the same thing, what server are you on?

[lilletante]

/bump

[DIggu]

I agree 10/10

[Dorachor]

Encouraging Bioware to look into this.

[Nemmar]

I'm not upset at all. Still did not help me out. But keep telling me it does, that should make it all better.

 

 

What server are you on so I can see if that has something to do with it, want to try an alt on one of the servers where folks are unaffected.

 

 

Or I can just try a few servers I suppose.

 

Just as you believe it didnt help for you, and i know it did for me... the best is to let people know that changing the ability delay to 0.0 in the preferances can improve their combat responsiveness. Let them try and find out is what i say. I'm not arrogant to the point of telling them not to try something that can work for them.

[Unravell]

would like to sign this as well. I can wait on balances, new content, anything if i believe the CORE MECHANICS are worthy. This is by fair the MAIN problem i have with the game, if this is figured out i cant see myself moving on from the game in a long long time..

 

Please bioware, at least acknowledge this so some of us can rest easy while we wait.

[nodefortytwo]

Played WoW at competitive levels, I do see the problem in SWTOR but I found it pretty easy to adapt too and it hasn't impacted my enjoyment of the game.

 

Non-critical bug in my book

[jtype_sw]

This is a huge gamebreaking issue.

 

Get this fixed ASAP.

[Nephrahim]

Played WoW at competitive levels, I do see the problem in SWTOR but I found it pretty easy to adapt too and it hasn't impacted my enjoyment of the game.

 

Non-critical bug in my book

 

I agree it doesn't 'ruin the game' but I do think fixing it would make it much better.

[Feskitt]

So there are slightly differing definitions of what the problem is...

And some say different per class...or PvE vs PvP... or even different servers.

Animations. GCD's. Client server sync.

 

 

All I have to say is this: I like my BH Merc's animations. They look like an actual person doing them. That is good.

 

If this supposed "problem" can be fixed WITHOUT messing with those animations, then I'm fine with any changes. But if the so-called "fix" is to remove the kinesthetically realistic animations, then screw that!

 

I'm starting to wonder if many (though not all) of the posts here are just a "whine-fest" of people who think they should be able to rapid-fire spam buttons as fast as they can. If that is the case, then I quote the cutesy kiddies in saying "l2p."

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2011 by Feskitt

[Halacs]

Just as you believe it didnt help for you, and i know it did for me... the best is to let people know that changing the ability delay to 0.0 in the preferances can improve their combat responsiveness. Let them try and find out is what i say. I'm not arrogant to the point of telling them not to try something that can work for them.

 

Agreed.

 

I never said folks should not try, just that it does not work for eveyone.

 

What server are you on? I would like to try a toon on your server.

 

Infact I would like to make a toon on a server with one of the people that don't have a problem with this and test some stuff out.

 

I will provide vent for ease of testing and bring cookies.

[BulgarBeast]

Thanks for making a post that accurately and succinctly describes the problem I noticed as well. It seemed to have gotten a little better after that maintenance. I rated the post.

[Putok]

Generally agree with the OP. However, just to put things in a bit of perspective ...

 

How do you know it's not a lag issue (properly so-called)? ie. something in the network coding perhaps?

 

I ask this because sometimes I feel lack of character responsiveness you're talking about, but sometimes everything seems in sync.

 

But this is the same with just about EVERY MMO I've ever played - except WoW, Guild Wars, City of Heroes and LOTRO/DDO. Those games all have similarly CONSISTENT avatar responsiveness, in descending order (most especially, consistent respnsiveness when things get busy).

 

I say this to balance out your singling this factor out as a primary cause of WoW's success. Some of the multitude of other MMOs with less character responsiveness (WAR, Rift, AoC, EQ2, DCUO, Champions Online, Aion, etc., etc., etc.) are still more successful than 2 of those on my high responsiveness list (CoH and DDO), so that can't be the whole story.

 

However, lack of character responsiveness may be part of the reason why games like (e.g.) WAR or DCUO aren't as successful as they could or should be given their many other charms.

 

The problem may just be the extreme difficulty of making these types of games, not anything specific to do with BioWare or the Hero engine being especially bad, as such. e.g. I believe the network code for WoW was written by the same team who went on to form Arenanet and make GW. I gather the guy who created the CoH engine is a bit of a genius of sorts in his own right. Turbine seem to be a particularly meticulous dev crew. Maybe those people just had a bit of an "edge" in certain areas that make for better character responsiveness, and I think it probably is in the area of network code.

 

To sum up, in perspective, what BioWare have done in terms of character responsiveness is about on a par with most MMOs, just not extra specially good (like WoW, GW, CoH and LOTRO/DDO).

 

The reason I think it's an issue of programming rather than client/server interaction is because space combat very consistently responds instantly. You can instant target 4 things with right mouse drag, and the missiles fire the INSTANT you release the mouse. Blasters fire the INSTANT you press the left mouse. Very clearly the engine is capable of instant response to player inputs, and at least in space missions, it seems that the client/server interaction is always good enough to permit it.

 

I've noticed that the clunkiness in regular combat is somewhat intermittent, and I'm not sure why. Sometimes it's much worse than others.

[Nightrode]

The reason I think it's an issue of programming rather than client/server interaction is because space combat very consistently responds instantly. You can instant target 4 things with right mouse drag, and the missiles fire the INSTANT you release the mouse. Blasters fire the INSTANT you press the left mouse. Very clearly the engine is capable of instant response to player inputs, and at least in space missions, it seems that the client/server interaction is always good enough to permit it.

 

I've noticed that the clunkiness in regular combat is somewhat intermittent, and I'm not sure why. Sometimes it's much worse than others.

 

This is very true.

[Seismax]

It doesn't matter I said this already:

 

The ROLE of the GCD is to be the buffer between abilities, NOT their animations and this is what is happening...

 

THE GCD is 1.5 seconds. There are animations in this game that last LONGER than the GCD and if you try to switch to another ability the problem occurs.

 

This is exactly it, it's not a matter of adapting, it's a matter of it not working the way it's designed.

 

If they wanted to have a fluid animation system for combat, that'd be fine if they did it right. We don't even get that with this broken gameplay though, instead the game clips your animation regardless and winds up an attack 5x in a row just to fail to activate.

 

And this is without even taking into account off the GCD abilities, which are also impacted by this bug and often will not fire unless your animation(and thus GCD) is clear.

[LastOrisan]

The reason I think it's an issue of programming rather than client/server interaction is because space combat very consistently responds instantly. You can instant target 4 things with right mouse drag, and the missiles fire the INSTANT you release the mouse. Blasters fire the INSTANT you press the left mouse. Very clearly the engine is capable of instant response to player inputs, and at least in space missions, it seems that the client/server interaction is always good enough to permit it.

 

I've noticed that the clunkiness in regular combat is somewhat intermittent, and I'm not sure why. Sometimes it's much worse than others.

 

The lag after the animation is consistent, but then there is lag before/during/after the animation that is completely random. Like something takes 3.2 seconds to cast one time, then 3.6 seconds to cast another, but everything else moves the same speed both times. Then there's the lag after the ability that delays it further. It like lag in other games, the stuttering, but it's attached to your abilities only. The videos in the other thread point them out well.