Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Zironic]

Apparently some people can't adjust to this; creatures of habit always want what they are used to and its always someone else's fault for not providing those 'expectations'. Sure, tweaks here and there are appropriate for a newly released game; but not a complete make over.

 

Well, it's up to Bioware really. Either they front-load the animations or no-one that cares the slightest about responsive gameplay will subscribe.

 

It doesn't matter if it's a reasonable demand or not, it's just simply so that for many people it's just not playable long term.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Zironic

[Ishikur]

Totally agree with the OP, the easiest way for me to try explain it to someone who doesnt get it is, for example in WoW lets say your on a rogue, and you press cheap shot, you can instantly press kidney shot without having to spam the button over and over, its as simple as press cheap shot press kidney shot and both go off excatly when you press them, sure there is a global cd but its small. in SWTOR i find sometimes im pressing my button 4 times before i see the anamation go off and tbh my fingers are already sore at lvl 25, its annoying.

[Urieaal]

@op Added spoiler tag because his whinny post is long.

 

 

Hello,

 

Before you label me a Troll please read my Early Review here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=76222

 

Note: Please, if you agree with these points and this subject, rate the thread. Perhaps this will raise Bioware's awareness. Anything we can do to make SW:TOR the best it can be because the truth is you and I are here because we want it to succeed and we see it's potential.

 

The game has been out long enough for the masses to finally realize the negatives. As people are getting out of the starting planets and the "new and shiny" feeling starts to subside, the cracks in this new wonderous world are becoming apparent.

 

Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness: -- It is not Latency or FPS Lag

 

I will attempt to discuss this issue and I will do so in a manner that I hope will make everyone understand it better. The "Character Responsiveness" for lack of a better term, is how "smooth" the game plays from your avatars perspective. I have played SWG and EQ to a lesser degree as well as Warhammer Online and several other MMOs and I must honestly say that Bioware has gotten this all too important aspect much better than any previous MMO that I have experienced (with the obvious exception, to which we will get soon).

 

You see, I really want you (The Reader) to understand the importance of this topic. To drive home "how" important this is. In fact I will say this: I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness. All these games failed for many reasons, and a game "can" fail for many reasons and on many fronts but this single-one-category... is by "far" the #1 Reason why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft.

 

Again, I must drive home the fact that no matter if you understand this issue or are new to the subject (and perhaps MMOs) or if you believe the game is fun and enjoyable and think that this is just a vocal minority piping up on something nonsensical. This is the undeniable truth and any game developer or serious gamer worth their salt will agree.

 

 

What is Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay? -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

It is the feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar that is being controlled. Basically, the better the Character Responsiveness is, the smoother the Game Plays! You may HATE World of Warcraft and believe it is the worst abomination on the planet... that is fine. HOWEVER, you "must" objectively admit that it is the absolute, smoothest Character Responsiveness in a Western Available MMO ever.

 

If you are a WoW player, and have played WoW with any amount of skill, competitiveness, you cannot help but cringe when in a Warzone in SW:TOR. It feels unresponsive, frustrating... as if something is wrong with you! but there is nothing you can do about it!

 

If you have never played WoW, perhaps you come from SWG or EQ2 or Rift etc. that is fine! You are WELCOME in this thread, it is not WoW Players against the Rest! I just "need" you to understand that SW:TOR is "noticeably" and "objectively" bad in this crucial department. I am not writing this because I am trolling or because I love WoW, on the contrary. I am doing this because I want SW:TOR to be amazing, I love so many aspects of this great game... but if this is not addressed it "will" die like every other one.

 

 

Why is this "so" important?! -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

From here on I will say 0.5 for emphasis but reality is 0.2, 0.3 (ANY) Ability Delay is unacceptable.

 

And here is the real problem. It is so important because MMO gaming has become so "tight", so competitive and so smooth (through WoW), that it is completely and absolutely unacceptable for an ability or animation to be delayed by 0.5 seconds.

 

0.5 seconds is a lot of time, to our visual cortex. 0.5 seconds is the difference between interrupting a CC of the enemy player or not (and thus being disadvantaged/dying). 0.5 seconds is the difference between landing a Taunt on the "add" that just came into the room and thus having it come to you or it one-shotting your healer and thus wiping on the Boss you've just spent 3 Days wiping to.

 

Zero Point Five Seconds is a ******* Long Time

 

 

Bioware, I plead that you dedicate as many resources as required (all if needed) to address this. You cannot cram story/companions/new flashpoints - operations... Class Balance into patches and hope that is good enough.

 

I hate to be a crazed doomsayer but I must state: Mark my words, if SW:TOR's Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay is not on par with WoW's by March-June it will be just another Rift.

 

Bioware, please see the importance of Character Responsiveness and Visual Stimulation of Ability Animation Correctness. It should be impossible for me to have an ability's cooldown activated without seeing it animate.... this is unacceptable. I just truly hope that this isn't a core coding issue or engine issue, because then we're f'd.

 

 

 

P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.

 

I hate to say it bub but its all you i dont have fps issuses or ability delay.. even in other games theres a global cooldown per ability use...which is half a second or .5 i have had wipes once but it only was a couple till the group got its function down... other then that if your referring to story missions upgrade your gear and companion gear lol honestly.. it makes a big difference, dont forget to train regularly you get ability every level...

 

 

honestly though these are personal problems.... ***Problems between Chair and computer*** If you have fps problems its time to upgrade there were tons of us during beta answering tech questions... meeting the minimum requirements means exactly that minimum game play. Dual core should be quad core your gpu should clock in at least 600mhz with at least 500mbs on board ram. for any form of decent gameplay. other wise what did you expect... "I meet the minimum requirements that must mean i can play on full settings derp de derp"

 

Edited December 26, 2011 by Urieaal

[Sadix]

Let me preface by saying I am having an absolutely great time playing this game and I love almost everything about it. However coming from WoW where I did nothing but arena from s5-s10 I know exactly what you are talking about. The delay is noticeable. However I do not know if that can easily be changed.

 

For those who dont agree with this thread they are certainly just confused as to what you are talking about.

 

edit: INB4 o your comp sucks. I play at max everything never dropping below 100 fps. Yes even in Warzones.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Sadix

[AlkalineKitten]

this is true i just tried 0.0 queue to 0.5 and noticed in 0.5 the GCD problem seems non existent but the fact is people dont like queue systems especially in a mmo but ATM it is not that bad to have or use since the game doesnt offer much procs but if it did then the queue can be a problem if 0.0 cant over come the GCD which honestly needs to be lowered by a small amount.

 

The problem is that WoW and LOTRO seem to have fine tuned their client enough that when I hit 3, Backstab goes off, boom, as I hit 3. Here I hit 3, and Riposte or Backstab or Shadow Strike seem to play this "Will I, Won't I" game of executing the command.

 

This delay issue isn't unique to OR, but ideally OR should seek to get rid of it.

[Naekyr]

i whole heartedly agree with the op.

 

the animations for abilities are longer than the cast timer and abilities dont go off until the animation is finished... this makes no sense whatsoever...

 

 

massive isuue this.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Naekyr

[Raurth]

45 pages and I still cant figure out exactly what people are complaining about.

 

Someone said 1/3 of the problem is the delay and the rest are the problem of abilities not going off even if the gcd triggers and stuff like that.

 

Im TRYING to reproduce 2/3rds of the problem but no one is giving me exact rotations to use x.x

 

I tried stuff wif smugglers (listed the exact rotations in another post) and I couldnt get an ability to NOT fire off unless I actually used it during the cast time.

 

As you said, you cannot figure out what the problem is. I do not mean this to be offensive, but that is part of the problem. Many players will not notice this.

 

I am not imagining this issue. The player that posted the mounting video is not imagining the issue (seriously, watch that video, watch it objectively, then come and tell me that the 0.5 second cast time on his mount had not passed). The only way that video could've demonstrated it better would've been to put a damn timer in the corner.

[Rendekar]

I'm sorry but people are seriously saying WoW combat felt more "VISCERAL" ?

 

Seriously ?

 

Where every special attack had the same animation ? And all you ever saw was the same 2 attacks for years (RL) ?

 

Yes I agree there are some issues with animation delays at times and I hope they manage to work them out, but dear God people, this game pisses all over WoW in terms of visceral combat, get your facts straight.

 

Wow animatios are not as good but wow combat is fluent and smooth. In the long term, gameplay and responsiveness are definitely more important than animations. Well, at least for the majority of players in mmo gaming.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Rendekar

[Gilthoras]

As a Gunslinger, delay is a gamebreaker for me.

 

We rely so heavily on cover activating WHEN WE NEED IT or getting a stun off so we aren't WTFBBQD by the shadow that just appeared that we just get owned in pvp because all of the skills that we have that are designed to let us get distance take too long to properly get off.

[Moodel]

@xcore

 

Lol you talk such rubbish that I'm not even deigning to reply in length. Just quit.

[Nanotech]

You are probably right that everyone is experiencing the same problem so in theory that makes everyone even, but is that now competely true? No. Try playing a smuggler in a warzone and wait for the cover ability to trigger. Before you have pushed the button and rolled into the perfect spot for your sneak attack your enemy is already out of range because it takes roughly 1 sec before your character actually does something.

 

Imagine your car did that stunt everytime you went out driving? "Oh I need to make a turn at the next corner so I need to start turning then wheels beforehand otherwise I won't make it." That wouldn't be a nice situation to be in would it now?

 

I fail to see your point. How is this any different than say, Force Leap?

[Leilei]

Totally agree with the OP, the easiest way for me to try explain it to someone who doesnt get it is, for example in WoW lets say your on a rogue, and you press cheap shot, you can instantly press kidney shot without having to spam the button over and over, its as simple as press cheap shot press kidney shot and both go off excatly when you press them, sure there is a global cd but its small. in SWTOR i find sometimes im pressing my button 4 times before i see the anamation go off and tbh my fingers are already sore at lvl 25, its annoying.

 

The only time Ive ever had to press a button more than once is when I use back blast and there is a bug on where the enemy is facing

[Rendekar]

@xcore

 

Lol you talk such rubbish that I'm not even deigning to reply in length. Just quit.

 

He will and we will too (If this issue isnt solved). Then, you will be left alone with 50k subs in empty servers and start to beg for server merges.

[Nanotech]

Try playing a melee class and chasing someone running around, as i spam my snare button praying they will hold still long enough so the input goes though before they move out of my range again. Playing melee with this input problem is horrible and feels terribly clunky. Coupled with lag elements it makes getting your keystrokes off a chore.

 

I play both a Guardian and a Juggernaut, actually.

[Raurth]

 

 

I hate to say it bub but its all you i dont have fps issuses or ability delay.. even in other games theres a global cooldown per ability use...which is half a second or .5 i have had wipes once but it only was a couple till the group got its function down... other then that if your referring to story missions upgrade your gear and companion gear lol honestly.. it makes a big difference, dont forget to train regularly you get ability every level...

 

 

honestly though these are personal problems.... ***Problems between Chair and computer*** If you have fps problems its time to upgrade there were tons of us during beta answering tech questions... meeting the minimum requirements means exactly that minimum game play. Dual core should be quad core your gpu should clock in at least 600mhz with at least 500mbs on board ram. for any form of decent gameplay. other wise what did you expect... "I meet the minimum requirements that must mean i can play on full settings derp de derp"

 

System Specification

 

- CPU: Intel Core i7 2700K 3.50GHz Sandybridge overclocked to 4.80GHz

- Motherboard: Asus Maximus IV Extreme -Z Intel Z68 (Socket 1155) PCI-Express DDR3 Motherboard

- RAM: 16GB (2x4GB) DDR3 Dual Channel Kit

- Hard Drive: 2TB HDD - 120GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD (SWTOR is on the SSD)

- Graphics Cards: 2 x Nvidia GeForce GTX 580 1536MB GDDR5 PCI-Express Graphics Card SLI setup.

 

Running the game on "high" (which, by the way, means medium, because of a bug we won't get into here).

 

This is not an FPS issue.

[baznasty]

I'm sorry but people are seriously saying WoW combat felt more "VISCERAL" ?

 

Seriously ?

 

Where every special attack had the same animation ? And all you ever saw was the same 2 attacks for years (RL) ?

 

Yes I agree there are some issues with animation delays at times and I hope they manage to work them out, but dear God people, this game pisses all over WoW in terms of visceral combat, get your facts straight.

 

The problem isn't what the game "looks" like. It's how it feels. Nobody is saying , ***, I can't win a WZ because my stinking character is using the same tired animation. We are saying that Bioware put too much thought into animation. They want a pretty game that looks fluid, unfortunately, until someone comes up with a genius system, you have to choose between "looking fluid" and "feel fluid". This game chose "looking fluid".

 

That's great for people who aren't into twitch movement and highly competitive gameplay; for those of us who play in that hyper-competitive mode, we are unable to overlook something so glaring.

[Nanotech]

He will and we will too (If this issue isnt solved). Then, you will be left alone with 50k subs in empty servers and start to beg for server merges.

 

You are incredibly deluded if you think this thread represents hundreds of thousands of players.

[AlkalineKitten]

The only time Ive ever had to press a button more than once is when I use back blast and there is a bug on where the enemy is facing

 

Really? I've had to do it multiple times as an Op to register Shivs and Backstabs, and Sentinel Strikes, and BH rocket punch.

[Nanotech]

Really? I've had to do it multiple times as an Op to register Shivs and Backstabs, and Sentinel Strikes, and BH rocket punch.

 

Stop spamming and wait for the prior animation to finish.

[Urieaal]

He will and we will too (If this issue isnt solved). Then, you will be left alone with 50k subs in empty servers and start to beg for server merges.

 

hate to break your precious snow flake bubble but you few whinny folks are not the majority...theres around 2million subs atm.. even being subjectively nice theres only around 250,000 unhappy folks. every one whos happy is busy playing which is what im about to do just popd it to check my late night posts from last night....

[Mandemalex]

Apparently some people can't adjust to this; creatures of habit always want what they are used to and its always someone else's fault for not providing those 'expectations'. Sure, tweaks here and there are appropriate for a newly released game; but not a complete make over.

 

Absolutely, i'm finding it very difficult to adjust to this - and hand-on-heart - it is most def. because of WoW.

 

However, when the OP says 'make-or-break' he really is pretty much spot on, because a majority of people coming to this game do have these expectations.

 

The question comes in, should people be expected to adjust? Or should Bioware make an attempt to alleviate this problem?

 

Because the first option will surely mean a lot of lost subs to SWTOR, which I most certainly don't want to happen.

 

I may well be wrong, but every person I have played with so far, has either commented on this fact - or agrees it should be changed.

 

A person earlier has also confirmed that with the 0.5 second ability delay (default) active - it is a much less noticeable 'bug' but it comes with a significant altercation to usual MMO gameplay (most people hate queue-systems, myself included)

 

I can also confirm this myself after trying it out, but I simply cannot bring myself to play with queued-abilities (there is always that time when you need to heal but you're already casting an offensive ability before you get the chance)

[Rendekar]

You are incredibly deluded if you think this thread represents hundreds of thousands of players.

 

Call me what you like really. When the initial hype and freshness of the game is over, history will repeat itself.

[Leilei]

Really? I've had to do it multiple times as an Op to register Shivs and Backstabs, and Sentinel Strikes, and BH rocket punch.

 

Then there must be a bug somewhere and we need to start at least giving some info to help the devs yknoe...fix it?

 

I already said I tried to reproduce the bug of skills not registering but it just isnt happening to my scoundrel unless I actually interrupt a cast

[AlkalineKitten]

I'm sorry but people are seriously saying WoW combat felt more "VISCERAL" ?

 

Seriously ?

 

Where every special attack had the same animation ? And all you ever saw was the same 2 attacks for years (RL) ?

 

Yes I agree there are some issues with animation delays at times and I hope they manage to work them out, but dear God people, this game pisses all over WoW in terms of visceral combat, get your facts straight.

 

Yeah, I am.

 

In WoW, I could hit a button and my character reacted on the spot.

 

Overpower? Instant reaction. Backstab, Ambush? Instant reaction. Raging Blow? Instant reaction.

 

In TOR, I hit Shadow Strike, Shiv, Backstab, Lacerate...they tend to lag. In a tiny way. But it's noticeable and impacts every aspect of the game, given 90% of the game is hitting buttons to hurt/heal things.

 

It affects damage, healing, interrupts, PvE, PvP. Is it a deal breaker to me? No, I've played other games with similar issues, and it sucks, but the pros outweigh the cons.

 

If we can get this refined, though? Why wouldn't you want a client as smooth as what's proven to exist elsewhere?

Edited December 26, 2011 by AlkalineKitten

[Nanotech]

Call me what you like really. When the initial hype and freshness of the game is over, history will repeat itself.

 

Name one game that died off becuase the combat was not a carbon copy of WoW's. I guarantee you I can name 5 more flaws about said game that were far more detrimental.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Nanotech