Proposed changes to SM Underlurker (SM!)

[FerkWork]

I like Underlurker the way that it is, minus the cross bug that is fixed by jumping. I enjoy the challenge. My character and my skills need some improving for HM so I'm happy that I have this fight to practice on. If they decide to change the fight so more people can complete it that's fine as well because then I can finish getting my set pieces and give HM a try Win-Win for me.

 

Besides the slow and tank cross swap it is identical to SM mechanically. It's just a big step up in DPS and maintaining pressure on the Lurker in any chance possible. By making it more accessible to get more gear, you will be better prepared for Lurker than leaving as is. It's like Torque where everyone has to max DPS including heals.

 

You must be the envy of your server huh? Do they call you the Story Mode Slayer or something catchy like that? Screw the people who can't do it!!! They should be more like YOU. SWTOR isn't about casual players, it's about the highly skilled guys like you who can down SM Ops with ease! They all just need to L2P or they can go back to their EV SM runs right lol?!

 

Story Mode Slayer Should be a title like RegStar for PVP.

[Loc_n_lol]

Underlurker is the only HM fight in this tier of operations.

There is the rest of SM. Then there is underlurker. Then there is Nim (aka "HM").

[pooks]

Underlurker

 

Because of lag issues on the Harbringer with 16m Story Mode I would like to see:

 

1-2 second delay between time the red circles appear and when the rocks fall.

Cross size enlarged by 20-30%.

 

We should not have to jump to register our position with the server; we miss healing because of that.

Edited April 22, 2015 by pooks

[Arunas]

A groupfinder group will consist of 2 healers, 2 tanks and 4 DPS from next Tuesday (assuming 3.2 goes live then). This fight then either needs 4 random, PUG DPS to maintain 2800 to 3000 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight, or it needs 4 random PUG DPS and 1 random PUG tank respeced to DPS to maintain 2500 to 2600 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight and have the respeced tank in question possess DPS gear and be able to play to that standard. 4 random PUG DPS maintain 2800 to 3000 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight? 1 random PUG tank have DPS gear and be able to DPS well enough to maintain 2500 to 2600 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight? Yeah right.

 

Yes, its ridiculous, because only particular specs and rotations can do good damage while being mobile and here you also need to target switch to kill adds fast. Also healing is very difficult on this boss if you have melee dps or people are not coordinated enough to mitigate add damage and get aoe heals.

 

Which makes this boss is most anti-PUG ops boss in the entire game so far.

[Divana]

I really don't see the issue with SM Underlurker. Mechanics are simple as they can be.

 

1. Kill adds asap when they spawn
   
2. Stay out of red aoe on the ground
   
3. Hide behind a rock
   
4. Stand in the correct spot during cross
   

 

That's it. Rinse and repeat.

 

The main issue in PUGs are the players that don't know what their left / right arm is. Almost all of the wipes are due to people standing in red aoe and / or running to the wrong side during the cross. It's not complicated. Maybe instead of complaining and demanding a nerf - people should learn to do simple things (ie not standing and differentiating between their left / right arm). Is that too much to ask?

 

I agree that the mechanic is not that hard, but it is too unforgiving for a SM ops. When you add to that the cross not registering people's positions correctly, and rocks falling on people who can't see a red circle before they die, it's a problem. The solution is to make the encounter completable in spite of the bugs, since they do not seem to be able to fix the bugs.

 

Decrease the aoe damage the adds do, and decrease the damage of the falling rocks to a reasonable amount - 25K? which will still be death if the healers are not keeping up with the damage. But please Bioware, when you fix it, don't hit it with a wrecking ball. Just do a couple of minor tweaks and see if that ups the completion rate. It's an interesting fight, and will be missed if they nerf it to oblivion, especially since the fight that follows it puts me to sleep.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Divana

[Icestar]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8060769#edit8060769

 

Why not play Temple of Sacrifice?

Two reasons for this. First, it was a numbers game. Only a fraction of the players who are in Ops at 60 are in ToS

 

Thankyou DawnAskham for that source, I did not follow that "tournament" since I considered it a failure and indeed it was later cancelled

Edited April 22, 2015 by Icestar

[Shwarzchild]

Bioware can nerf UL if they want to. Nerfing him doesn't solve any problems overall outside of maybe keeping the carrot in the faces of those on the fences regarding staying or leaving. There still will be plenty of players who have no idea how to work their classes regardless of whether they are tanks, healers, or dps players, and no matter what happens to these operations, or future operations, no amount of nerfing will help these people outside of turning story mode operations into a new KDY mission where any level can join.

 

I would almost bet that even with a nerf, the players that complain about how hard UL is would still fail it, and still complain. They are the "nothing makes us happy" crowd.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[DarthZaul]

Another thread, more evidence that Bioware don't read the forums.

[FerkWork]

Bioware can nerf UL if they want to. Nerfing him doesn't solve any problems overall outside of maybe keeping the carrot in the faces of those on the fences regarding staying or leaving. There still will be plenty of players who have no idea how to work their classes regardless of whether they are tanks, healers, or dps players, and no matter what happens to these operations, or future operations, no amount of nerfing will help these people outside of turning story mode operations into a new KDY mission where any level can join.

 

I would almost bet that even with a nerf, the players that complain about how hard UL is would still fail it, and still complain. They are the "nothing makes us happy" crowd.

 

Maybe. But that's besides the point. Personally I just want to be able to take the same pug group from Ravagers and take them into ToS and have the same chance of success. Wasting 1 hour to find enough people who fit the criteria and interested,, 30 minutes to get to Lurker, spend 40 minutes on Lurker before everyone rage quiets pointing ringers at everyone leaving me with a massive headache, repair bill, and no loot. Unless they changed the commendation system or nerf Lurker I will have a mostly BiS Tank, partly BiS Sorc, and rest naked toons.

[Icestar]

Nerfing him doesn't solve any problems overall outside of maybe keeping the carrot in the faces of those on the fences regarding staying or leaving.

 

Nah, it will actually solve alot of problems, make storymode fun and doable for the general community must be their primary goal.

 

To have fun with both new ops, because we are here to have fun are we not?

Edited April 22, 2015 by Icestar

[g_land]

I couldn't tell you how many times I have wiped to due rocks dropping screwy in the fight because of the randomness or the cross phase not registering people in their positions. I know other people with a bitter taste in their mouth about Underlurker as well. Just the mear mention of ToS makes us all cringe because of ONE boss, and most of us were in progression HM raid groups pre-3.0 doing just fine in them.

 

I find this paragraph rather confusing, is it harder because its a one-shot mechanic? Its basically the same as the circles from the Bestia encounter in DP. I had someone tell me they found tanking sword squadron in HM very difficult the other day because they couldn't see the circles underneath each other to get out of them. My response, "why do you need to see circles underneath other circles rather than just getting out of any circle that appears?" Same concept with underlurker, see a circle? get out of it!

[DarthVengeant]

I really don't see the issue with SM Underlurker. Mechanics are simple as they can be.

 

1. Kill adds asap when they spawn
   
2. Stay out of red aoe on the ground
   
3. Hide behind a rock
   
4. Stand in the correct spot during cross
   

 

That's it. Rinse and repeat.

 

The main issue in PUGs are the players that don't know what their left / right arm is. Almost all of the wipes are due to people standing in red aoe and / or running to the wrong side during the cross. It's not complicated. Maybe instead of complaining and demanding a nerf - people should learn to do simple things (ie not standing and differentiating between their left / right arm). Is that too much to ask?

 

Wrong. It's not just pug players. I am in two raid groups (one imp, one rep) and BOTH groups are sick of Underlurker. This is STORY MODE boss, NOT HARD MODE. He is set to above a Story Mode setting compared to the rest of the ops, in fact both new ops. All 9 of the other raid bosses are set to story mode, not Underlurker. Period

 

No, not all the wipes are for what you said. Rocks dropping in bad or odd positions causing people to have to move CLEAR across the room right next to adds during add group 4 and 5 (which essentially ruins the entire burn phase), Cross phase not registering at all when people are in their proper position (even if they jump), etc. I could go on with other examples. I see it all the time and I am sick of it. People like you are flat out elitists and do NOT understand what STORY MODE is supposed to be and there ARE some problems with this boss. You think only your way of playing and how "easy" it has been for YOU is what everyone else is experiencing. It is not. You are very wrong. You also are probably the type that want everything hard and a challenge and are in a "really good" top tier type raid group. News Flash, not everyone has that luxury. The challenge and hard stuff is what Hard Mode and NiM Is for, not story mode. This is the problem with Underlurker, he is NOT set to a SM setting.

 

I find this paragraph rather confusing, is it harder because its a one-shot mechanic? Its basically the same as the circles from the Bestia encounter in DP. I had someone tell me they found tanking sword squadron in HM very difficult the other day because they couldn't see the circles underneath each other to get out of them. My response, "why do you need to see circles underneath other circles rather than just getting out of any circle that appears?" Same concept with underlurker, see a circle? get out of it!

 

You clearly have no idea what I said. No one mentioned anything about circles.

 

See, this entire boss and discussion infuriates me to no end. The "elite" type players just don't get it and I would wager that is because their ego's don't let me see clearly. So, I'll clear it up for them: Alot of people just want to log in their game and do a SM ops and ENJOY themselves. RELAX, set back, and have FUN doing an ops with friends/people. Games are supposed to be fun after all. Not set pounding your head against a wall for 2 hrs on ONE boss in a Story Mode continually, every single week, all the time, when the entire rest of the raid after him is fairly easy. If I feel like I want a challenge, that is what Hard Mode or NiM is for. Not story mode. Get it now?

Edited April 22, 2015 by DarthVengeant

[Shwarzchild]

 

See, this entire boss and discussion infuriates me to no end. The "elite" type players just don't get it and I would wager that is because their ego's don't let me see clearly. So, I'll clear it up for them: Alot of people just want to log in their game and do a SM ops and ENJOY themselves. RELAX, set back, and have FUN doing an ops with friends/people. Games are supposed to be fun after all. Not set pounding your head against a wall for 2 hrs on ONE boss in a Story Mode continually, every single week, all the time, when the entire rest of the raid after him is fairly easy. If I feel like I want a challenge, that is what Hard Mode or NiM is for. Not story mode. Get it now?

 

Not one of us, or I'd wager maybe barely one of us that posts here, are elite players in this game. I don't see Zorz players posting here often, or Hates you people, or whoever the big guilds are in this game. We're all simply second fiddle to them. You know what I hate about your attitude? It's that your ideas matter whereas anyone else who doesn't agree with you matters not. To us "other casuals" people who want to just fly through the content are problematic. We don't want you in our raids because you stop us from having OUR fun. Maybe some of us aren't good enough for hardmodes (and maybe some are), but like challenges none the less. By your logic, that has no place in story mode, because you can't separate end game content from a make shift title. Because story means you should be able to sit back disconnect your keyboard, and *** for a while while watching a video. And because you pay money you are entitled to do so even though we all pay money and our ideas are irrelevant to you. No other point of view makes it through such a dense and limiting attitude.

 

You know what we all want to do, regardless of "classification"? Log into our games and have fun. Every single day, every single week. The fact that you can't accept the fact that other players have fun in different ways than you is disgusting. We think that end game content shouldn't be something that people should be able to fly through in principle. We've already said that Underlurker should be tweaked. But, people like you will always trumpet this horn that you're better than anyone else who thinks differently. The fact is you don't want to accept any other point outside of "NERF THE STORY MODE OPS CAUSE STORY MODE MEANS SOMETHING TO ME EVEN THOUGH IT MAY MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO SOMEONE ELSE". Go away. Just. Go. Away.

[Kagekeishu]

I don't know why this thread still is up ..? As far as I am Aware of BW is working on changing and adapting the new 3.0 OP SMs with the next Patches (3.2.1 and later)... So BW will - what some will call *nerf* - make those SMs easier ... Lets wait and see what will come... Therefore /thread closed ..!

 

Best regards

Kage

[Shwarzchild]

Maybe. But that's besides the point. Personally I just want to be able to take the same pug group from Ravagers and take them into ToS and have the same chance of success. Wasting 1 hour to find enough people who fit the criteria and interested,, 30 minutes to get to Lurker, spend 40 minutes on Lurker before everyone rage quiets pointing ringers at everyone leaving me with a massive headache, repair bill, and no loot. Unless they changed the commendation system or nerf Lurker I will have a mostly BiS Tank, partly BiS Sorc, and rest naked toons.

 

haha naked toons. That's funny. I have a friend who loves to have all her toons be naked for some reason. My operative is BiS at the moment for 192s with some 198 mixed in as I progress with the hms. I guess I just kind of figure if the group can do bulo ill go ahead and suggest we go to ToS, but if they can't I just say nah won't say anything, and just tell myself I have all week to do this anyway. Naked toons. heh.

[TUXs]

haha naked toons. That's funny. I have a friend who loves to have all her toons be naked for some reason.

Probably because "she" is a "he" irl?

[Shwarzchild]

Probably because "she" is a "he" irl?

 

Nope...definitely a girl. I know her well. There are females who do love this game too, quite a few.

[TUXs]

Nope...definitely a girl. I know her well. There are females who do love this game too, quite a few.

Manti Te'o said the same thing about his girlfriend...just sayin

[Shwarzchild]

Manti Te'o said the same thing about his girlfriend...just sayin

 

You're right. I have no friends, live in my mom's basement, and play with action figures all day. I actually assign them names and that's the girl I was talking about.

 

aka I own my own home, she is not my girlfriend, but a good friend of mine who lives down the street who comes over for dinner on fridays because i can cook, and she can't make anything more complicated than easy mac and Friday is my go crazy in the kitchen night. She either brings her lap top, and we'll run an op together or we'll go to happy hour at the dive bar at the end of the street. We're currently trying to figure out how to beat NiM DP with our guildies. Been rough. Really rough. How people cleared NiM content "at level" is beyond me. Real fun challenge though.

[TUXs]

You're right. I have no friends, live in my mom's basement, and play with action figures all day. I actually assign them names and that's the girl I was talking about.

 

aka I own my own home, she is not my girlfriend, but a good friend of mine who lives down the street who comes over for dinner on fridays because i can cook, and she can't make anything more complicated than easy mac and Friday is my go crazy in the kitchen night. She either brings her lap top, and we'll run an op together or we'll go to happy hour at the dive bar at the end of the street. We're currently trying to figure out how to beat NiM DP with our guildies. Been rough. Really rough. How people cleared NiM content "at level" is beyond me. Real fun challenge though.

I was just teasing you...I think it's great that she plays and even better how close you are.

Edited April 23, 2015 by TUXs

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I think it's fine as is.

 

Don't you guys remember back when DF / DP dropped? Draxus and Tyrans were the PUG killers, as they required half a brain to complete.

 

Draxus SM was a PuG killer? Since when? Draxus SM is literally, don't forget to interrupt the Corruptors and you are fine. Tyrans was a bit harder, but since the floor would not drop for DPS, as long as you had all ranged DPS, you were fine.

 

SM Underlurker is a pain in the ***. They really should make it so that in SM only, the adds have 80k HP and don't deal additional damage the closer you get to them, and Rage Storm if you are behind a rock you don't get knocked back. That would make the boss playable in 16m SM.

[Excise]

Draxus SM was a PuG killer? Since when? Draxus SM is literally, don't forget to interrupt the Corruptors and you are fine. Tyrans was a bit harder, but since the floor would not drop for DPS, as long as you had all ranged DPS, you were fine.

 

Draxus was initially bugged at the start as he was doing more damage than he should have.

[Shwarzchild]

Draxus SM was a PuG killer? Since when? Draxus SM is literally, don't forget to interrupt the Corruptors and you are fine. Tyrans was a bit harder, but since the floor would not drop for DPS, as long as you had all ranged DPS, you were fine.

 

SM Underlurker is a pain in the ***. They really should make it so that in SM only, the adds have 80k HP and don't deal additional damage the closer you get to them, and Rage Storm if you are behind a rock you don't get knocked back. That would make the boss playable in 16m SM.

 

Pretty sure it was mentioned earlier that the add health is getting knocked down a little.

 

I still think a lot of people here are over stating how hard UL is. I clear it in pugs regularly. It's not on pug "farm" like Ravagers is, but I still clear it regularly on POT5 probably like 6 times out of 10 which I find fair, maybe it's too low I don't know. Ravagers is a clear like 10 times out of 10 which is cool I guess too. So it's really hard to just blindly agree with people when my experiences pugging are opposite the general feelings shown here. Regardless of anything I've experienced, the tweak is on the way. And, that hopefully will help the people here who are struggling with it.

[DarthVengeant]

Well, Underlurker just got a nerf in 3.2. So, we won.

 

"Temple of Sacrifice - Reduced the health of the Lurkerlings in the Story Mode Underlurker encounter. "

 

Underlurker will be easier and funner now. I am very happy with this nerf, as is both my raid groups.

 

Not one of us, or I'd wager maybe barely one of us that posts here, are elite players in this game. I don't see Zorz players posting here often, or Hates you people, or whoever the big guilds are in this game. We're all simply second fiddle to them. You know what I hate about your attitude? It's that your ideas matter whereas anyone else who doesn't agree with you matters not. To us "other casuals" people who want to just fly through the content are problematic. We don't want you in our raids because you stop us from having OUR fun. Maybe some of us aren't good enough for hardmodes (and maybe some are), but like challenges none the less. By your logic, that has no place in story mode, because you can't separate end game content from a make shift title. Because story means you should be able to sit back disconnect your keyboard, and *** for a while while watching a video. And because you pay money you are entitled to do so even though we all pay money and our ideas are irrelevant to you. No other point of view makes it through such a dense and limiting attitude.

 

You know what we all want to do, regardless of "classification"? Log into our games and have fun. Every single day, every single week. The fact that you can't accept the fact that other players have fun in different ways than you is disgusting. We think that end game content shouldn't be something that people should be able to fly through in principle. We've already said that Underlurker should be tweaked. But, people like you will always trumpet this horn that you're better than anyone else who thinks differently. The fact is you don't want to accept any other point outside of "NERF THE STORY MODE OPS CAUSE STORY MODE MEANS SOMETHING TO ME EVEN THOUGH IT MAY MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO SOMEONE ELSE". Go away. Just. Go. Away.

 

I surely accept that people have fun in other ways that I do, such as people who enjoy doing GSF and Flashpoints all the time. But the fact is, Story Mode means Story Mode, not challenging Hard Mode. Simple. Logic. And if you want challenging things that is what Hard Mode and NiM is for. No one said anything about "Because story means you should be able to sit back disconnect your keyboard, and *** for a while while watching a video" nonsense easy, you are over-exhaggerating big time. You said some weren't good enough for HM, well if they made Underlurker SM easier you'd get the gear and be able to do HM (where the challenge is) wouldn't you? Yes, that's clear logic. As well, you clearly don't know me or understand anything I said and just want to make assumptions. You enjoy that.

 

The fact is, I hear these complaints about UL every single day. In my guild, and on fleet or gen chat. They are VALID complaints and how now finally been addressed by Bioware in tomorrows patch. UL got nerfed, as it needed to be. SM is more like SM now. End of story.

Edited April 27, 2015 by DarthVengeant

[Bachannal]

Well, Underlurker just got a nerf in 3.2. So, we won.

 

"Temple of Sacrifice - Reduced the health of the Lurkerlings in the Story Mode Underlurker encounter. "

 

Underlurker will be easier and funner now. I am very happy with this nerf, as is both my raid groups.

 

 

A perfect fix for that fight imo...good move on their part.