Proposed changes to SM Underlurker (SM!)

[FerkWork]

Preface: RIP in pieces last pug run. And after that super clean Sword Squadron one shot I feel kind of sad that it had to end like this. Before you say L2P which I can't for anyone else, everyone had the cheevio and properly geared. I'm also 7/10 HM but I can't do progression every day (I wish) so pug when I feel like it. I'm aware this topic has been beaten to death and people will flame me that they need their story mode progression. I disagree you should be in HM. Personally SM should be easy to pug with half a brain and half a hand. It means more chances at gear for my alts and they get comms. I'm really bored sitting on fleet for another Ravagers run just to kill some lame pirates (Seriously still don't understand what was happening in Ravagers half the time story wise). Usually when people call for nerfs they say just nerf but I will put down my own recommendations.

 

Changes to Lurker Story Mode

• Reduce HP to 2.6mil to 2.2mil

• Increase enrage from 4:50 to 5:00 minutes

• Reduce adds HP from 100k to 80k

• Remove both Meele and Maul attacks from adds.

• Redude Jump Smash Damage from 880 damage every 2 seconds to 640 Damage every 2 seconds.

• Increase collapse channel from 9 to 10 seconds

• Increase channel time of Devastation from 7 seconds to 10 seconds.

• Incorrect cross now halves HP instead of one shotted.

 

Conclusion: Flame away now at me for being incapable of carrying all 7 others to glory. Or maybe I needed to be carried. Yet backs not stronk. Tell me Lurker is a cake walk it was 4 manned I'm well aware. But I can't play with all stars all the time. I will just be sitting here with my fully geared tank and all my other toons naked (Once they make you tank they never want you to do anything else but I digress)

Edited April 22, 2015 by FerkWork

[Excise]

I won't flame you or anything. That'd be silly.

 

I don't think Underlurker needs huge changes, though, to be viable to PuGson SM. Just removing the extra damage that melee take ought to be enough. Maaaybe ease up a touch on the DPS requirements.

[FerkWork]

I won't flame you or anything. That'd be silly.

 

I don't think Underlurker needs huge changes, though, to be viable to PuGson SM. Just removing the extra damage that melee take ought to be enough. Maaaybe ease up a touch on the DPS requirements.

 

Tbh, they could make the UL attacks do 1 damage for all I care. I just want to get gear for my alts and do something besides Ravagers.

Literally every other boss is faceroll easy (Tp me UL but not to others) then this one makes you want to murder your teammates. I quit my original guild because my group couldn't kill Lurker.

Edited April 22, 2015 by FerkWork

[DarthVengeant]

Underlurker is not set to a SM setting compared to this and older ops as they were set in SM. That has been the entire problem since the day 3.0 hit. I am sick of this boss and sick of the elitists and their attitudes about it. STORY MODE means just that, STORY MODE. More for the "casual" people or people who just want to log in and have a fun easy ops. Hard Mode is for the challenge and hardness, NOT Story Mode.

 

Underlurker ruins the ENTIRE ToS ops. I have never understood why Underlurker boss is much harder than the rest of the ops. Why is UL this hard, but not REVAN for crying out loud? It is REVAN after all. How is an ugly deformed monster boss harder than freakin Revan? How is NiM Nefra (pre-3.0 gear when lvl cap was 55) easier than SM Underlurker? Explain that logic to me Bioware, please. The rest of the ops after UL is utterly easy. I simply don't get it. I never had all these problems with SM bosses in DF and DP when they came out. Cleared them every week, that doesn't ring true with ToS because of Underlurker.

 

Reduce the AOE damage from the adds and that solves half the problem.

 

Stop making ops bosses that get ruined due to server hitching (the cross phase). Stop making bosses with random things popping in them (the rocks).

 

I couldn't tell you how many times I have wiped to due rocks dropping screwy in the fight because of the randomness or the cross phase not registering people in their positions. I know other people with a bitter taste in their mouth about Underlurker as well. Just the mear mention of ToS makes us all cringe because of ONE boss, and most of us were in progression HM raid groups pre-3.0 doing just fine in them.

Edited April 22, 2015 by DarthVengeant

[kojottt]

Yes please, you are suppose to clear story mode using only basic attacks and standing in whatever is dropped on you. That's how people want it

[Icestar]

If they read the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum they would know that the Underlurker is a game breaker for many players.

 

I have no idea if they read that though

Edited April 22, 2015 by Icestar

[HBCentaurion]

I think it's fine as is.

 

Don't you guys remember back when DF / DP dropped? Draxus and Tyrans were the PUG killers, as they required half a brain to complete.

[Icestar]

I think it's fine as is.

 

Don't you guys remember back when DF / DP dropped? Draxus and Tyrans were the PUG killers, as they required half a brain to complete.

 

I remember and those bosses are not the same, the Underlurker has lots of bugs and is not tuned for the groupfinder playerbase.

[Aries_cz]

I remember and those bosses are not the same, the Underlurker has lots of bugs and is not tuned for the groupfinder playerbase.

 

The only major bug Underlurker has is that the game sometimes registers his position or position of players incorrectly. However, this can be usually overcome by grouping together while Lurker jumps, and then people jumping one when they are in the correct spot in cross. That forces servers to get player's position immediately.

 

The other things are not really bugs, but more like the fight being a way less predictable than Draxus was. On Draxus, what spawned where was predetermined, so it could be planned around. On UL, the adds and falling rocks spawn in semi-random locations, so that needs to be coordinated.

[FerkWork]

I think it's fine as is.

 

Don't you guys remember back when DF / DP dropped? Draxus and Tyrans were the PUG killers, as they required half a brain to complete.

 

Draxus was only overtuned because of a bug that made the fights damage output set to 16man HM on 8man SM. Tyrans hardly a pug killer.

 

But that's irrelevant.

[FerkWork]

Yes please, you are suppose to clear story mode using only basic attacks and standing in whatever is dropped on you. That's how people want it

 

Precisely as its hard enough to find decent pug players. To muster 7 others with cheevio it took 45 minutes. Using that much of my time to get a group is silly.

 

Mechanics are fine for the fight, getting rid of the DPS check is what really needs to happen.

Edited April 22, 2015 by FerkWork

[Icestar]

The only major bug Underlurker has is that the game sometimes registers his position or position of players incorrectly.

 

If you read through the forum you will see players reporting more bugs then that.

 

The Underlurker is not fine, not by a longshot. I hope we will see some tuning in the upcomming patch, if they pick up on player feedback they should do something.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Icestar

[HBCentaurion]

I really don't see the issue with SM Underlurker. Mechanics are simple as they can be.

 

1. Kill adds asap when they spawn
   
2. Stay out of red aoe on the ground
   
3. Hide behind a rock
   
4. Stand in the correct spot during cross
   

 

That's it. Rinse and repeat.

 

The main issue in PUGs are the players that don't know what their left / right arm is. Almost all of the wipes are due to people standing in red aoe and / or running to the wrong side during the cross. It's not complicated. Maybe instead of complaining and demanding a nerf - people should learn to do simple things (ie not standing and differentiating between their left / right arm). Is that too much to ask?

[Icestar]

I really don't see the issue with SM Underlurker.

 

Yeah, we got that but the fact still remains that lots of players does not agree with this. If you find Underlurker very easy then HM version is for you, and perhaps NiM when they recycle him into a even harder mode.

[FerkWork]

I really don't see the issue with SM Underlurker. Mechanics are simple as they can be.

 

1. Kill adds asap when they spawn
   
2. Stay out of red aoe on the ground
   
3. Hide behind a rock
   
4. Stand in the correct spot during cross
   

 

That's it. Rinse and repeat.

 

The main issue in PUGs are the players that don't know what their left / right arm is. Almost all of the wipes are due to people standing in red aoe and / or running to the wrong side during the cross. It's not complicated. Maybe instead of complaining and demanding a nerf - people should learn to do simple things (ie not standing and differentiating between their left / right arm). Is that too much to ask?

 

I have killed 7/10 HM thank you. That includes the Underlurker in HM.

Most of the time it's due to adds not dying quickly. 1 dies before they are behind a rock, wrong positions. Can't help change that yourself when running 5 DPS and your're the tanking Lurker

 

Irrelevant to my skill level or yours, others can't make the cut. Do I wish players go better instead of nerfing? Of course. But that's liking asking for a Unicorn. I have many alts that still need gear.

Edited April 22, 2015 by FerkWork

[Andrellma]

This again?

 

Are you too good to post in the 70 other topics about this?

[FerkWork]

This again?

 

Are you too good to post in the 70 other topics about this?

 

I guess I am too good. Plus I rather start from scratch than necro something else.

 

But that's off topic

Edited April 22, 2015 by FerkWork

[Pietrastor]

If they read the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum they would know that the Underlurker is a game breaker for many players.

 

I have no idea if they read that though

 

They already know, they have the data, they already ADMITTED only a fraction of the playerbase even bothers with TOS. And they still do nothing. They're content having months of work go waste because some proud dev refuses to admit Underlurker is overtuned

Edited April 22, 2015 by Pietrastor

[dbears]

How is an ugly deformed monster boss

 

Hey.. The Underlurker has feelings you know

[davidp_newton]

I really don't see the issue with SM Underlurker. Mechanics are simple as they can be.

 

1. Kill adds asap when they spawn
   
2. Stay out of red aoe on the ground
   
3. Hide behind a rock
   
4. Stand in the correct spot during cross
   

 

That's it. Rinse and repeat.

 

The main issue in PUGs are the players that don't know what their left / right arm is. Almost all of the wipes are due to people standing in red aoe and / or running to the wrong side during the cross. It's not complicated. Maybe instead of complaining and demanding a nerf - people should learn to do simple things (ie not standing and differentiating between their left / right arm). Is that too much to ask?

 

No it is NOT all there is. On top of that significant mechanics check you have to maintain significant DPS to be able to kill the boss and adds fast enough. The DPS check would be fine on its own. The mechanics check would be fine on its own. The combination of the mechanics check and the DPS check is ridiculous in the third boss of an SM encounter. Another thing indicating what a horrible fight it is comes from the virtual requirement to take 5 DPS into it. The DPS check with 5 DPS is 2500 or 2600 per DPS, working out to be 12500 to 12900 raid DPS without the tank and without any contribution from the healers. Since the healers are going to be very busy after the initial stage of the fight where they can DOT up the boss their contribution is likely to be minimal. Personally speaking I would expect to pull 1400 to 1500 DPS on this fight as a vanguard tank. A lot of PUGS are probably not able to do that.

 

So if we call the 5 DPS requirement 12500 DPS and change the mix to 4 DPS and 1 tank we still need to find 12500 DPS from that same group. Let's say the tank pulls 1500 DPS that leaves 11000 DPS to be found between the 4 DPS, working out to 2750 per DPS. Let's say the second tank pulls 1000 DPS and the overall DPS requirement for the 5 players is 12900. That leaves 11900 DPS to be found between the 4 DPS, working out to 2975 per DPS.

 

A groupfinder group will consist of 2 healers, 2 tanks and 4 DPS from next Tuesday (assuming 3.2 goes live then). This fight then either needs 4 random, PUG DPS to maintain 2800 to 3000 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight, or it needs 4 random PUG DPS and 1 random PUG tank respeced to DPS to maintain 2500 to 2600 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight and have the respeced tank in question possess DPS gear and be able to play to that standard. 4 random PUG DPS maintain 2800 to 3000 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight? 1 random PUG tank have DPS gear and be able to DPS well enough to maintain 2500 to 2600 DPS in a movement- and mechanics-heavy fight? Yeah right.

 

I can do that level of DPS and I have killed Underlurker SM lots of times, most recently last night. Based on what I have seen in PUG ops groups I am a considerably better player than the average PUG player, at least on my server. So do I expect the required level of performance to be found in a random groupfinder group? NO. I certainly won't be trying Temple of Sacrifice with a random group and having any realistic expectations of completion of the op.

Edited April 22, 2015 by davidp_newton

[Icestar]

They already know, they have the data, they already ADMITTED only a fraction of the playerbase even bothers with TOS.

 

Yeah a few players say that that they actually admitted that, please provide the source.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Icestar

[TUXs]

I really don't see the issue with SM Underlurker. Mechanics are simple as they can be.

 

1. Kill adds asap when they spawn
   
2. Stay out of red aoe on the ground
   
3. Hide behind a rock
   
4. Stand in the correct spot during cross
   

 

That's it. Rinse and repeat.

You must be the envy of your server huh? Do they call you the Story Mode Slayer or something catchy like that? Screw the people who can't do it!!! They should be more like YOU. SWTOR isn't about casual players, it's about the highly skilled guys like you who can down SM Ops with ease! They all just need to L2P or they can go back to their EV SM runs right lol?!

Edited April 22, 2015 by TUXs

[DawnAskham]

Yeah a few players say that that they actually admitted that, please provide the source.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8060769#edit8060769

[lpope]

Yeah a few players say that that they actually admitted that, please provide the source.

 

It was part of the response to the cancellation of Operation Victory tournament.

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/03/02/swtor-operation-victory-tournament-canceled/

 

Damn, beat by Dawn. I blame typing on my smartphone.

Edited April 22, 2015 by lpope

[testpatter]

I like Underlurker the way that it is, minus the cross bug that is fixed by jumping. I enjoy the challenge. My character and my skills need some improving for HM so I'm happy that I have this fight to practice on. If they decide to change the fight so more people can complete it that's fine as well because then I can finish getting my set pieces and give HM a try Win-Win for me.