Do something with SM Underlurker already, TOS has been wasting for nearly 4 months

[TUXs]

Instead of everybody whining so hard, why don't you just get better? The SM ops are just fine for the average player. I've only seen complete **** players fail at this new tier of content.

Even complete **** players spend money on this game. And why do you care? You should be downing HM with how good you are.

[Bachannal]

Instead of everybody whining so hard, why don't you just get better? The SM ops are just fine for the average player. I've only seen complete **** players fail at this new tier of content.

 

Your e-peen is thsooooooo big. We're all impressed around here, I can tell you that.

[FerkWork]

I think a fight that needs a nerf as the risks vs reward is absurd is BH. Those first two fights ouch.

 

For first boss with 4 people, Has 800k less health than Torque with a 3:20 hard enrage timer, deals more damage than, many Ops bosses, has a adds that have HP close to Lurkerlings, and a reward which Onwouldnt even give to my companion.

And that's the easier of the 2....

[eartharioch]

one of the first things I would change wouldn't necessarily be the damage/health of adds.

 

I would start simple, make collapse a set location and have the boss not jump after cast. meaning the rocks will always fall in a given location AND boss will not jump/reposition after the channel. This really should be a HM mechanic beyond just additional life/damage.

 

at that point you can eliminate some of the RNG from the sm, which is what ends up wiping groups most of the time.

 

These are the sorts of changes I would like, although lengthening some of the timings to allow people [like me] on slower machines to be able to complete them "as is" would be (imo) preferable.

 

I want to be able to complete the mechanics reliably, I don't want the HP (dps targets) lowered -- all that does is make it easier for other people to clear the fight without my full/expected dps -- i.e., carry me.

[Soul_of_Flames]

I've made my point a couple times in this thread. SM is for story, not for challenge. That's why hard and nightmare modes exist.

 

That being said, I think the only nerf to the Underlurker fight that needs to happen is there needs to be more idle time between his attacks. Specifically there needs to be more time to put damage on the boss between the end of Devestation and the next spawn of adds.

 

The add's HP is perfectly fine. The enrage timer is fine. Basically everything is fine except that pug groups have a hard time finding time to put damage on the boss. So it would be an ideal change for SM to give some openings that let the DPS hit the boss for a few seconds.

 

Also... while not THAT big of a deal... the add's melee attack needs a damage reduction. Them hitting melee for 15k on top of their raidwide AoE just isn't fun. It's one of the many reasons why 3.0 made being melee completely worthless.

[FerkWork]

Your e-peen is thsooooooo big. We're all impressed around here, I can tell you that.

 

He can measure it here

[Grayseven]

I've said my piece about this but I do want to address one misconception that has seemed to crop up...mostly from people who can be labeled as "hardcore raiders".

 

In SWTOR, there are 3 levels of operations difficulty: Story mode, Hard mode and Nightmare mode. The misconception is that all three levels are supposed to be challenging for people who are what I'll call "above average raiders".

 

If you have 3 levels of difficulty, those 3 levels need to encompass the abilities of all of your player base and not just the above average portion of players. That means that your lowest level of difficulty is NOT going to be challenging for people who are "above average". You simply can not make the lowest level of difficulty challenging for people who run higher levels of difficulty without completely denying those below average players the ability to enjoy the content.

 

And yes, those below average players have every bit as much right to game content as the above average crowd. They pay their money to be entertained and deserve to be able to enjoy the available content to the fullest. To throw terms around like "bads" and say they don't have the right to do operations is also very short-sighted. Those people you are calling "bads" are the same people who provide funding to the game so you can also enjoy it. Without them, you wouldn't have near as much to do nor would you see new content as often as you do.

 

This lame excuse being thrown around about "waiting until they can be carried"...no one should ever have to be carried through the lowest tier of difficulty in an operation under normal circumstances. No one should have to wait 6 months into the content life to be able to run the lowest tier of difficulty.

 

So what if Story mode content is nerfed down to the point that it becomes face-roll easy for people running higher tiers of difficulty? If people were talking about nerfing HM into the ground, I could see your point but if you are running HM ops then at no point should you even be worried about stepping foot into a SM op after you've geared up through token drops or comms. It's not like you need the Ultimate comm's since anyone who knows anything about gearing knows that the current crop of 198 comm gear is worse than 192 token gear.

 

With that being said, it appears that Group Finder is going back to 8 man groups. While 8 man operations appear to be tuned much better than 16 man ops and the game engine behaves better with fewer people in an instance it's unknown how this will affect groupfinder PuG runs. Problems with finding more tanks with the experience with the increased complexity of tanking mechanics aside, we should see more people running GF ToS successfully...but that still doesn't make the Underlurker fight as it currently stands well tuned for below average players. I'll take a wait and see approach to the change to 8 man.

 

In short, the "above average" raiding crowd needs to stop believing that story mode content needs to be challenging for them. It doesn't. It should only exist as a gear gate required to get to the higher tiers of content and once that gear is obtained the "above average" group of players should never set foot in it again unless they are gearing up another HM raiding toon.

[Papazmurf]

^^^ this is pretty much what I said with a different tone. All SM content should be accessible to some degree. Edited April 3, 2015 by Papazmurf

[Shwarzchild]

I've said my piece about this but I do want to address one misconception that has seemed to crop up...mostly from people who can be labeled as "hardcore raiders".

 

In SWTOR, there are 3 levels of operations difficulty: Story mode, Hard mode and Nightmare mode. The misconception is that all three levels are supposed to be challenging for people who are what I'll call "above average raiders".

 

If you have 3 levels of difficulty, those 3 levels need to encompass the abilities of all of your player base and not just the above average portion of players. That means that your lowest level of difficulty is NOT going to be challenging for people who are "above average". You simply can not make the lowest level of difficulty challenging for people who run higher levels of difficulty without completely denying those below average players the ability to enjoy the content.

 

And yes, those below average players have every bit as much right to game content as the above average crowd. They pay their money to be entertained and deserve to be able to enjoy the available content to the fullest. To throw terms around like "bads" and say they don't have the right to do operations is also very short-sighted. Those people you are calling "bads" are the same people who provide funding to the game so you can also enjoy it. Without them, you wouldn't have near as much to do nor would you see new content as often as you do.

 

This lame excuse being thrown around about "waiting until they can be carried"...no one should ever have to be carried through the lowest tier of difficulty in an operation under normal circumstances. No one should have to wait 6 months into the content life to be able to run the lowest tier of difficulty.

 

So what if Story mode content is nerfed down to the point that it becomes face-roll easy for people running higher tiers of difficulty? If people were talking about nerfing HM into the ground, I could see your point but if you are running HM ops then at no point should you even be worried about stepping foot into a SM op after you've geared up through token drops or comms. It's not like you need the Ultimate comm's since anyone who knows anything about gearing knows that the current crop of 198 comm gear is worse than 192 token gear.

 

With that being said, it appears that Group Finder is going back to 8 man groups. While 8 man operations appear to be tuned much better than 16 man ops and the game engine behaves better with fewer people in an instance it's unknown how this will affect groupfinder PuG runs. Problems with finding more tanks with the experience with the increased complexity of tanking mechanics aside, we should see more people running GF ToS successfully...but that still doesn't make the Underlurker fight as it currently stands well tuned for below average players. I'll take a wait and see approach to the change to 8 man.

 

In short, the "above average" raiding crowd needs to stop believing that story mode content needs to be challenging for them. It doesn't. It should only exist as a gear gate required to get to the higher tiers of content and once that gear is obtained the "above average" group of players should never set foot in it again unless they are gearing up another HM raiding toon.

 

I'm not saying the carrying curve is right, wrong, or whatever. It is real though. It's been there forever, so you can't really just dismiss it, or just because I said it and you don't like reading what I write, as total hogwash. And, the big reason why I want a balanced story mode that provides a challenge, as well as works for casual players, is because not everyone fits nicely into the hardmode or casual categories. There are tweeners in there who aren't good enough for hard modes, want to get there, but need a little slower of a pace to start out on. I don't think it's fair to just say well they should just go out of storymode because down the line they want to be hardmode raiders so we should make them bang their head against a wall for months because they just weren't really mentally ready for the faster pace of hardmode since that's probably statistically over weighting the amount of the population who is of that totally lesser skill category and putting way too much emphasis on them. That's just as unfair. Some people like the "tactical" road map, and some don't. But, to exclude them because they aren't going to just run things in a mindless fashion for gear just doesn't sit right with me. Thus...balance is needed. Balance. Balance. Balance.

 

The solution is just blatantly obvious in having those separate modes, but we aren't ever going to get that so we have to find that middle ground. And I do agree with your point about the difficulties. That's a very good statement. Maybe the solution is 4 modes. Story, Normal, Hard, NiM.

 

Oh man, I'm insanely excited about the changes to the group finder you mentioned. I think that's going to be great for the game. More ultimate comms for people = a little bit better gear for pug groups to help them with, and that's a good thing. Plus, 16 man gf never ever popped. I would be shocked if someone said they had it pop when they randomly qued. And, totally ignoring the older (yet still challenging operations) was such a bad call. That GF took people and pushed them into content that was too hard, too quickly, and we're all suffering because of it. Super excited about this change, and I really really hope it helps the game. I think it will.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[TUXs]

He can measure it here

That link is awesome lol...and of course I took the quiz.

[TUXs]

I've said my piece about this but I do want to address one misconception that has seemed to crop up...mostly from people who can be labeled as "hardcore raiders".

 

In SWTOR, there are 3 levels of operations difficulty: Story mode, Hard mode and Nightmare mode. The misconception is that all three levels are supposed to be challenging for people who are what I'll call "above average raiders".

 

If you have 3 levels of difficulty, those 3 levels need to encompass the abilities of all of your player base and not just the above average portion of players. That means that your lowest level of difficulty is NOT going to be challenging for people who are "above average". You simply can not make the lowest level of difficulty challenging for people who run higher levels of difficulty without completely denying those below average players the ability to enjoy the content.

 

And yes, those below average players have every bit as much right to game content as the above average crowd. They pay their money to be entertained and deserve to be able to enjoy the available content to the fullest. To throw terms around like "bads" and say they don't have the right to do operations is also very short-sighted. Those people you are calling "bads" are the same people who provide funding to the game so you can also enjoy it. Without them, you wouldn't have near as much to do nor would you see new content as often as you do.

 

This lame excuse being thrown around about "waiting until they can be carried"...no one should ever have to be carried through the lowest tier of difficulty in an operation under normal circumstances. No one should have to wait 6 months into the content life to be able to run the lowest tier of difficulty.

 

So what if Story mode content is nerfed down to the point that it becomes face-roll easy for people running higher tiers of difficulty? If people were talking about nerfing HM into the ground, I could see your point but if you are running HM ops then at no point should you even be worried about stepping foot into a SM op after you've geared up through token drops or comms. It's not like you need the Ultimate comm's since anyone who knows anything about gearing knows that the current crop of 198 comm gear is worse than 192 token gear.

 

With that being said, it appears that Group Finder is going back to 8 man groups. While 8 man operations appear to be tuned much better than 16 man ops and the game engine behaves better with fewer people in an instance it's unknown how this will affect groupfinder PuG runs. Problems with finding more tanks with the experience with the increased complexity of tanking mechanics aside, we should see more people running GF ToS successfully...but that still doesn't make the Underlurker fight as it currently stands well tuned for below average players. I'll take a wait and see approach to the change to 8 man.

 

In short, the "above average" raiding crowd needs to stop believing that story mode content needs to be challenging for them. It doesn't. It should only exist as a gear gate required to get to the higher tiers of content and once that gear is obtained the "above average" group of players should never set foot in it again unless they are gearing up another HM raiding toon.

I'm officially a fan of yours Another fantastic post Gray...extremely well summarized!

[Grayseven]

I'm not saying the carrying curve is right, wrong, or whatever. It is real though. It's been there forever, so you can't really just dismiss it, or just because I said it and you don't like reading what I write, as total hogwash. And, the big reason why I want a balanced story mode that provides a challenge, as well as works for casual players, is because not everyone fits nicely into the hardmode or casual categories. There are tweeners in there who aren't good enough for hard modes, want to get there, but need a little slower of a pace to start out on. I don't think it's fair to just say well they should just go out of storymode because down the line they want to be hardmode raiders so we should make them bang their head against a wall for months because they just weren't really mentally ready for the faster pace of hardmode since that's probably statistically over weighting the amount of the population who is of that totally lesser skill category and putting way too much emphasis on them. That's just as unfair. Some people like the "tactical" road map, and some don't. But, to exclude them because they aren't going to just run things in a mindless fashion for gear just doesn't sit right with me. Thus...balance is needed. Balance. Balance. Balance.

 

The solution is just blatantly obvious in having those separate modes, but we aren't ever going to get that so we have to find that middle ground. And I do agree with your point about the difficulties. That's a very good statement. Maybe the solution is 4 modes. Story, Normal, Hard, NiM.

 

Oh man, I'm insanely excited about the changes to the group finder you mentioned. I think that's going to be great for the game. More ultimate comms for people = a little bit better gear for pug groups to help them with, and that's a good thing. Plus, 16 man gf never ever popped. I would be shocked if someone said they had it pop when they randomly qued. And, totally ignoring the older (yet still challenging operations) was such a bad call. That GF took people and pushed them into content that was too hard, too quickly, and we're all suffering because of it. Super excited about this change, and I really really hope it helps the game. I think it will.

 

Whether you believe there is a carrying curve or not, the simple fact is that there shouldn't be one. It should be dismissed because at no point should the easiest mode of anything game related require players to be carried through it.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Hard Mode is the middle ground. It is the middle difficulty and exists to challenge people not challenged by Story Mode.

 

You can not challenge above average players with the lowest tier of difficulty. It is bad game design. It creates a skill gate at the lowest tier of difficulty and that should never, never exist.

 

You talk about balance and challenge, but when you talk about it you have to include the fact that there are 3 tiers of difficulty for operations and the balancing and challenge has to be spread amongst all three in order to ensure that the level of challenge covers as many different player skill levels as possible...which is why people are trying to hammer home the fact that the lowest tier of difficulty has to be balanced around the lower tiers of skill amongst players. It shouldn't be balanced around the people who look to HM ops for challenge.

 

And if you don't find SM challenging, you should be moving on to HM and not wanting the lowest tier of operations balanced to provide you a challenge. Everyone does fit nicely into those categories if those categories are balanced properly to take into account the various skill levels of players.

 

Nightmare mode, to me, as it currently stands...well, I consider it a waste of development time. All that work for such a miniscule percentage of the player base just isn't worth it in the grand scheme of things. EA/BW would be better served by balancing all three tiers of operations so that each one covers a third of the player bases skill levels rather than having a difficulty tier for the top 1% or so. That won't sit well with players who feel their ego needs massaged with current NiM difficulty but I don't care. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and there are many more casual type players than there are NiM players.

[bdatt]

Whether you believe there is a carrying curve or not, the simple fact is that there shouldn't be one. It should be dismissed because at no point should the easiest mode of anything game related require players to be carried through it.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Hard Mode is the middle ground. It is the middle difficulty and exists to challenge people not challenged by Story Mode.

 

You can not challenge above average players with the lowest tier of difficulty. It is bad game design. It creates a skill gate at the lowest tier of difficulty and that should never, never exist.

 

You talk about balance and challenge, but when you talk about it you have to include the fact that there are 3 tiers of difficulty for operations and the balancing and challenge has to be spread amongst all three in order to ensure that the level of challenge covers as many different player skill levels as possible...which is why people are trying to hammer home the fact that the lowest tier of difficulty has to be balanced around the lower tiers of skill amongst players. It shouldn't be balanced around the people who look to HM ops for challenge.

 

And if you don't find SM challenging, you should be moving on to HM and not wanting the lowest tier of operations balanced to provide you a challenge. Everyone does fit nicely into those categories if those categories are balanced properly to take into account the various skill levels of players.

 

Nightmare mode, to me, as it currently stands...well, I consider it a waste of development time. All that work for such a miniscule percentage of the player base just isn't worth it in the grand scheme of things. EA/BW would be better served by balancing all three tiers of operations so that each one covers a third of the player bases skill levels rather than having a difficulty tier for the top 1% or so. That won't sit well with players who feel their ego needs massaged with current NiM difficulty but I don't care. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and there are many more casual type players than there are NiM players.

 

Don't be surprised if there isnt a NiM tier of Rav and ToS. Th e current HM is like previous NiM. Groups that took work but could clear previous HM can't get past 2nd boss this tier.

 

So it's reasonable to assume that with a massively increased HM difficulty BW thought increasing SM difficulty slightly could balance things out. I'm not saying that was a good decision, but even as ToS difficulty currently stands the difficulty jump from SM to HM is bigger than in the past.

[Shwarzchild]

Whether you believe there is a carrying curve or not, the simple fact is that there shouldn't be one. It should be dismissed because at no point should the easiest mode of anything game related require players to be carried through it.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Hard Mode is the middle ground. It is the middle difficulty and exists to challenge people not challenged by Story Mode.

 

You can not challenge above average players with the lowest tier of difficulty. It is bad game design. It creates a skill gate at the lowest tier of difficulty and that should never, never exist.

 

You talk about balance and challenge, but when you talk about it you have to include the fact that there are 3 tiers of difficulty for operations and the balancing and challenge has to be spread amongst all three in order to ensure that the level of challenge covers as many different player skill levels as possible...which is why people are trying to hammer home the fact that the lowest tier of difficulty has to be balanced around the lower tiers of skill amongst players. It shouldn't be balanced around the people who look to HM ops for challenge.

 

And if you don't find SM challenging, you should be moving on to HM and not wanting the lowest tier of operations balanced to provide you a challenge. Everyone does fit nicely into those categories if those categories are balanced properly to take into account the various skill levels of players.

 

Nightmare mode, to me, as it currently stands...well, I consider it a waste of development time. All that work for such a miniscule percentage of the player base just isn't worth it in the grand scheme of things. EA/BW would be better served by balancing all three tiers of operations so that each one covers a third of the player bases skill levels rather than having a difficulty tier for the top 1% or so. That won't sit well with players who feel their ego needs massaged with current NiM difficulty but I don't care. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and there are many more casual type players than there are NiM players.

 

 

Well what it comes down to with you is that everyone should be forced to adhere to the casual way because you outnumber everyone else 2-1 or 3-1. So their fun is inconsequential, their opinions are inconsequential. I mean that's cool. To each their own opinion. You say that difficulties should be balanced across the spectrum, and then say that the content for one section of players is a waste of time. Doesn't exactly mesh.

 

What I think would happen if we were to make storymode totally a joke, and make it faceroll easy in order to appease the lowest skill tier of players, remove the checks, and simplify the mechanics, we'll get the same type of situation that we were left with that we see in tavtical to hard mode flashpoints. You get those casuals going into those modes, and have Aim gear when their main stat is Strength or what not. It would destroy what an operation was meant to be. I don't understand how people who want storymodes to be strictly story based and all others go to hardmode can't see this after being around for the tactical ---> hm fp debate that still is valid currently. That's what happens when we remove the checks and balances from content. I think Tactical content is game ruining content, so I would do everything possible to keep that out of operations.

 

Where does the line stop? I'm not saying I know the answer, or the solution, but I think I do know that making the base level operation tier overly easy is a bad idea, just as how I recognize that making it overly hard is a bad idea. I also think we get hung up on the words so much. Storymode is a bad title. It should be normal mode so we don't have this confusion. And, maybe the solution is to have story, normal, hm, and nim. That would solve the problem. I just don't see that happening, so story and normal is going to continually play the balancing act with each other.

 

And yes the carrying curve is a real thing. It happens, it's just one of those built in things. In whatever group you play in, whether it's your raid team, or whatever group, I'm sure there's a better geared/ more min maxed guy/ girl you're playing with and because you're playing with that person regularly you don't notice the carrying curve as much, or you're experience with it is negligible because you're moving faster than the average person. I mean you can say it doesn't exist, but I don't see how it's a terrible thing, nor is it something that can just vanish in some ideal world. The 4month-6month waiting period, sure I don't want to say it's too short, or too long. Personally I think it's maybe a tad long for the mercenary for hire people who don't guild, but i also think that if they want to stay on their own they have to deal with a longer clearing time anyway. I think if we just look at things in a just based in reality way, and take things as they are today with no changes, that patience is needed and those questionable mechanics will become easier over time.

[Grayseven]

Well what it comes down to with you is that everyone should be forced to adhere to the casual way because you outnumber everyone else 2-1 or 3-1. So their fun is inconsequential, their opinions are inconsequential. I mean that's cool. To each their own opinion. You say that difficulties should be balanced across the spectrum, and then say that the content for one section of players is a waste of time. Doesn't exactly mesh.

 

What I think would happen if we were to make storymode totally a joke, and make it faceroll easy in order to appease the lowest skill tier of players, remove the checks, and simplify the mechanics, we'll get the same type of situation that we were left with that we see in tavtical to hard mode flashpoints. You get those casuals going into those modes, and have Aim gear when their main stat is Strength or what not. It would destroy what an operation was meant to be. I don't understand how people who want storymodes to be strictly story based and all others go to hardmode can't see this after being around for the tactical ---> hm fp debate that still is valid currently. That's what happens when we remove the checks and balances from content. I think Tactical content is game ruining content, so I would do everything possible to keep that out of operations.

 

Where does the line stop? I'm not saying I know the answer, or the solution, but I think I do know that making the base level operation tier overly easy is a bad idea, just as how I recognize that making it overly hard is a bad idea. I also think we get hung up on the words so much. Storymode is a bad title. It should be normal mode so we don't have this confusion. And, maybe the solution is to have story, normal, hm, and nim. That would solve the problem. I just don't see that happening, so story and normal is going to continually play the balancing act with each other.

 

And yes the carrying curve is a real thing. It happens, it's just one of those built in things. In whatever group you play in, whether it's your raid team, or whatever group, I'm sure there's a better geared/ more min maxed guy/ girl you're playing with and because you're playing with that person regularly you don't notice the carrying curve as much, or you're experience with it is negligible because you're moving faster than the average person. I mean you can say it doesn't exist, but I don't see how it's a terrible thing, nor is it something that can just vanish in some ideal world. The 4month-6month waiting period, sure I don't want to say it's too short, or too long. Personally I think it's maybe a tad long for the mercenary for hire people who don't guild, but i also think that if they want to stay on their own they have to deal with a longer clearing time anyway. I think if we just look at things in a just based in reality way, and take things as they are today with no changes, that patience is needed and those questionable mechanics will become easier over time.

 

You have completely missed the point. When you talk about "dumbing down" the Story Mode version of ops you seem to think that it will be so easy that everyone can faceroll through it. That isn't the case. Just as you seem to fail to grasp the basic understanding behind balancing the difficulty between tiers and changing the difficulty of the hardest level of difficulty to encompass more than just a few dozen people per server (while it is pertinent content).

 

Mechanics will still exist, wipes will still happen, SM operations will still require players to play and not just smash random buttons. However, the current level of difficulty for Story Mode is just too dang high on some fights and that higher level of difficulty simply does not belong in Story Mode operations.

 

And no one is forcing anyone to adhere to the casual way. People who aren't casual already have their modes available. The simple fact that you seem to want to ignore is that casuals currently have NOTHING when it comes to operations and it will continue as long as SM operations are tuned to provide a challenge for players who will move on to HM operations and beyond. There is a reason why the numbers for ToS, as mention by Musco, are so low and that is because it isn't tuned for the majority of the player base.

 

There is also a difference between playing with someone who has better gear or skill and being REQUIRED to play with someone who has better gear or skill. The carrying curve is bunk, a made up thing to try to prove an argument that fails simply by requiring you to make up a thing to justify it. It has been nearly 5 months since these operations have launched and that is entirely too long for people to wait to be "carried" through a story mode operation.

 

You can continue to cling to your false beliefs but it won't change the most basic fact of all...if end game doesn't have enough things to do for the majority of the player base because it is catering to a minority of it, people will stop playing. This game can't afford to lose any more players.

[Shwarzchild]

This is something I think probably changes after the new group finder/ returning of ultimate comms to the older operations. This gives those casuals that think ToS specifically (because Rav is pretty much on farm for a lot of people at this point in time) that outlet they were looking for in terms of having something. We all have agreed that it would be appropriate for a tweak in the UL fight. Some of us like me don't think we need a huge tweak, some do. That "nerf point" we can debate more and more most likely. So I'm hoping that this kind of return to the older way of things with operations is the answer which means we just need to give it a little more time.

 

I was out at lunch thinking about the idea of a carrying curve, testing my assumptions. I came to the conclusion that I just didn't put the right name to it. It's just a basic nature of group play I was getting at. Some people will be better, some will be worse. Those who are worse learn in some fashion I would hope from those who are better. It's what happens when you are in a group based thing, and not in a solo mode. I understand what you're getting at. I think you're stuck on the word carrying, so let's just remove carrying from the discussion, and say that because in a team based setting some people are better at some things than others, those who aren't as good end up learning from that higher skilled person (regardless of actually difficulty, just general principle here). If we put it in perspective, if I'm a DPS doing 1.7k dps (I picked 1.7 just because I see dps putting out an average like that in pug groups pretty regularly). I'm basically at the 148 gear level which puts me at a level akin to old 50 content, but since we're at level 60 content now I'm going to need some help if I want to enjoy it. So I'd have three choices really, I could just do the old 50 content until I am blue in the face which really isn't fun for anyone, put in a lot of work to get better, or I can get into a group that's ok with my skill level, and can accommodate for me. I'm kind of required to get help in this case if I'm not really sure I can improve all that much or if I just don't really care about it. I still don't think it's a terrible solution really. I see it as being part of a team, and a team can work through something like that if there's a dps there that can close the gap. It's the compromise that being in a team requires from all the participating members. So that person who ends up covering the extra what 1k dps that i'm not putting out is carrying me per say. Would the solution be to lower the needed dps to level 50 totals from before? I don't really think that's a help to the game as a whole either.

 

I think we're kind of cherry picking to be honest. Ravagers is totally on farm for groups. ToS outside of UL is farm material as well. So really we're talking about 1 boss out of 10 that needs a tweak. I thought we all agreed that a tweak is appropriate, but for instance like Tux was saying he would hope for up to a 25percent reduction and I said well I'd go for a 5, the middle ground in terms of what that tweak is numerically is still a really hard point to pin down. In terms of the 4-6 month "waiting" period. I mean it's not ideal of course, and at the same time in my mind if something just came out, and everyone could run through it with only some issues here and there it would have heavier consequences which would lead to burn out. I just remember the mass exodus after launch when we didn't have enough to do at 50. I don't want to see only one person on a planet, or have server mergers needed or else the game falls apart. So I just can't emphatically endorse a faster clearing rate, because i think that exodus could easily happen again if the content dries up too fast. You're right though, if it takes too long for people to clear they'll leave as well. It's almost like a catch 22, slow down end game progression too much, mass exodus because people can't clear and are too frustrated, speed it up and mass exodus cause players have nothing to do and it takes longer than the players use time wise to develop and test newer and newer content. With Ravagers being so easy now, I wonder if we're pretty much either at the tipping point for ToS, and if a small tweak to say the enrage timer or the health of the adds would alleviate all the frustration people are feeling

 

I agree that the game can't be losing players on a consistent basis. That only hurts all of us. We can't over weight player categories though. Even though the "hardcore" players who jump into the highest difficulty content available may not be nearly as numerous as the "casual" player base it's possible they spend enough on cartel junk that that gap between the two financially isn't as large as we may think it is. Or it could be the complete opposite. I don't know. Overall though, the hardcore players matter, and they need to be taken care of as well, and just because the majority is one thing, quantity may not mean much here in a true comparison.

 

Overall, I think it's a bit asinine to call for sweeping changes to storymode because 1 boss out of 10 is slightly off kilter. Being so general as saying that casuals have nothing because UL is over tuned is kind of taking things a bit too far for me.

 

Anyway that's my position for like the 100 millionth time, so I'm just going to stop now. I'm sure everyone has me on ignore at this point anyway.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[FerkWork]

Don't be surprised if there isnt a NiM tier of Rav and ToS. Th e current HM is like previous NiM. Groups that took work but could clear previous HM can't get past 2nd boss this tier.

 

So it's reasonable to assume that with a massively increased HM difficulty BW thought increasing SM difficulty slightly could balance things out. I'm not saying that was a good decision, but even as ToS difficulty currently stands the difficulty jump from SM to HM is bigger than in the past.

 

This is a good point and must be taken into account as well on BW motives.

What I believe is happening is that BW wanted to increase the lifetime of its content by making it for a limited time harder than usual before progressively nerfing it so that by the time NiM comes out it will be needed to the ground. (i.e. NiM buff everything) Look at the way they have nerfed the FPs. Now whether this is a good strategy I cannot say but I think this idea can't be discounted.

Edited April 3, 2015 by FerkWork

[TUXs]

Don't be surprised if there isnt a NiM tier of Rav and ToS.

There's nothing I'd like more than for them to skip NiM from now until the game closes. It's used by far too few people to warrant its development.

[skomerko]

deleted Edited March 31, 2019 by skomerko

[dscount]

I agree with TUX.. the current HM content is still barely cleared by MOST guilds (Less the 1% that cleared first week).

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. "Hardmarish" was a BAD IDEA and when you cater to the top 1% guilds in the game to be "harder" out of the gate you pretty much shaft your long term playability of the game for the other 99% especially for SM Content.

 

That said.. the "HM" being harder was really NIM level, but the SM should have never been scaled to HM level. It's meant to be done by a MAJORITY of the server without VoIP and guild based groups.

 

Glad to see that 16m Group Finder is being dropped back down to 8 man.

[TUXs]

Im not sure. NIMs are great "filler" content. Increasing health pool/dmage and adding 1 or 2 mechanics can be done by one guy probably.

If that's all it was, I'd be fine with it, but it's not...Developer time would be better spent on making new content all players can enjoy. The top 5% won't sustain SWTOR.

[Pagy]

Yes, voice-chatting seasoned raiders can get past this boss, more casual guilds let alone PUGs roadblock on it over and over. You've admitted yourself only a fraction fo players bothers with TOS, what could possibly be the reason oh my? Maybe because most assume the run won't finish more than 2 bosses? This is the worst SM balancing in any ops in the game ever released, forget the EC Tanks or DP Council, this boss is overdone on every aspect in story mode.

 

It's been 4 MONTHS already, we're gonna be approaching halfway point of the current 2 operations' main life cycle soon and most still either haven't seen 4th and 5th bosses or only few times thx to lockout run.

 

HM level of dps, healing, tacs and co-ordination belong in HM modes.

lurker is easy and it says a lot about swtor gamers that can't complete this encounter.

 

apparently swtor players just wanted to faceroll everything and not have to think about things like moving or distinguishing right from left.

[dscount]

lurker is easy and it says a lot about swtor gamers that can't complete this encounter.

 

apparently swtor players just wanted to faceroll everything and not have to think about things like moving or distinguishing right from left.

 

Yes and no.. first off Lurker has been riddled with BUG's and that has also created issues. Boxes move on Rocks, people don't move, etc. Even requiring people to "JUMP" just to register is usually fine for NIM groups used to do that, but it's not been a requirement in old ops and most are not used to these silly game issues.

 

Lurker ALSO requires MOST of the time a higher level of HPS and DPS that most SM's today. (Yes.. SM's are a tad overboard this set for OPS).

 

PUG's from Fleet should be able to clear these w/o VoIP solution in place and not one shot mechanix.

[Pagy]

um

sm lurker can be easily cleared without voice and has no one shot mechanics.

 

I would agree lurker is "oddly tuned" for a mid-instance boss, but I still believe that this fight isn't anymore difficult than sm df and dp were when they were released.

 

cripes I dont think I cleared the dread council for months because people can't switch targets or cleanse.

[athenaprime]

Underlurker is a HM mechanic in a SM operation. It is much more unforgiving than the rest of the content in SM and makes the operation unbalanced. And it really, really hates melee, which will render the social aspect of the operation unbalanced as fewer groups will take melee DPS classes.

 

Our group just passed it this week, after weeks of banging our heads against the wall, and weeks away to cool tempers. I will say straight-up that we are not the best out there, but we aren't clueless, either. We read the guides, watch the vids, figure out the mechanics and the best way to leverage our player make-up. But this is no one's job--it's our fun, and Underlurker became No Fun for a while. It is still No Fun because when we passed the content, there was as much luck involved as skill, knowledge, and preparedness.

 

We don't mind practice and working through mechanics. But when we have to roll the dice on whether or not the rocks will render properly, the cross will show up, the boss will end up stuck in a wall, we'll get a green cross and someone will be one-shotted anyway... I am okay with challenging content, but if you expect your players to have to compensate for your engine's weaknesses, that makes me less of a player and more of an unpaid quality tester.

 

If you know your class, and know the fight, this should be PUGgable. The fact that it is not by a vast majority of PUG groups indicates it needs tweaking.

 

Yes and no.. first off Lurker has been riddled with BUG's and that has also created issues. Boxes move on Rocks, people don't move, etc. Even requiring people to "JUMP" just to register is usually fine for NIM groups used to do that, but it's not been a requirement in old ops and most are not used to these silly game issues.

 

Lurker ALSO requires MOST of the time a higher level of HPS and DPS that most SM's today. (Yes.. SM's are a tad overboard this set for OPS).

 

PUG's from Fleet should be able to clear these w/o VoIP solution in place and not one shot mechanix.