3.1.2 - The fall of Hatred/Serenity in PvE

[Iona_Var]

A lot of very good points in this thread. Personally I'd like to see our self heals eliminated completely and see a good increase in our passive survivability to compensate. Another thing we could do that would effect pvp more than pve is keep deflection at 12s but lower the stun immunity the ability gives to 6s.

[Aelanis]

One idea I think we could do is make the DR of Blackout a utility for the Hatred and Deception Discipline and in Tank Discipline does more damage. Similar to the Explosive Fuel utility for Vanguard which inverses the roll, when they pop Explosive Fuel, you gain a DR increase as DPS and a damage increase as tank. Deception gets a 25% DR during the blackout window BUT it's not used as a defensive cooldown, it's purely offensive so any damage taken during this window is just fluffed down.

 

This would give Blackout a use in Hatred as a 25% DR for 6 seconds every 45 seconds or 1 minute depending on utility selection and would give tanks some burst damage for their opener, say a 15% damage dealt increased? I'm not sure how people would feel about this and having Mind over Matter in play, but I find, and sorry Aelanis that Deception's defensive on the part of Blackout's DR is useless in terms of that particular feature for the use of the DR alone.

 

No one goes "Oh snap, gonna take damage, lemme pop Blackout!" while playing deception. That OR! turn it into a heal and take the heal off of Deathfield and DoT's making it more controlled. We lose a passive heal off Death Field which is a 1.5k or something per use every 15 seconds, so 4.5k plus the DoT's in a 45 sec window, not sure how much it'll be.

 

TL;DR Make Blackout do something?

 

I see a few problems with this, though. Hatred already has this exact ability, just tied to their AoE taunt at the moment. It's incredibly useful for timed damage (and should be used as such), and it doesn't hurt Hatred since they have a much better threat drop to use if they need to. Unfortunately, we're still in the same place: the active defenses (which play a huge role in Arenas) are very good (especially in PvP), but they aren't always around for PvE. I like the change for tanks, but unless Hatred won't lose the Taunt DR (which would be a PvP buff, which we really don't need/want), then there's no real reason to do it for Hatred.

 

Also, Recklessness Death Field on adds is just too juicy to give up for the simple heal It's hard to replace a self heal ability that hits multiple targets with one that doesn't.

[TACeMossie]

So i decided to put my assassin on the PTS because reasons, here's a couple of things you might not have known!

 

1. Low Slash has 30m Range now, and does less damage

2. Sever Force/Creeping Terror still has 30m Range

3. Death Marks/Force Supression Charges are giving +15% damage instead of +10%.

 

Since no mention was made of these for 3.2, its very possible these are intended for 3.1.2

[invertioN]

Low Slash has 30m Range now

 

wot

Edited March 27, 2015 by invertioN

[Aelanis]

So i decided to put my assassin on the PTS because reasons, here's a couple of things you might not have known!

 

1. Low Slash has 30m Range now, and does less damage

2. Sever Force/Creeping Terror still has 30m Range

3. Death Marks/Force Supression Charges are giving +15% damage instead of +10%.

 

Since no mention was made of these for 3.2, its very possible these are intended for 3.1.2

 

Wait, lolwut on the Low Slash bit. Serious lolwut. There's been NO mention of this anywhere. Pics, or I'll assume you're trolling us

[TACeMossie]

Wait, lolwut on the Low Slash bit. Serious lolwut. There's been NO mention of this anywhere. Pics, or I'll assume you're trolling us

 

http://i.imgur.com/NKpP8Mo.jpg

 

I saw it in the datamined stuff, was like "that can't be the case", then logged in to check it out and it was there!

 

And as you can tell, I pretty much never use my sin. Ever.

Edited March 27, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Luckygunslinger]

Brb, transferring Sinais

 

 

Is legit and looks awesome.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[bdatt]

If I could make one suggestion, it would be to make AOE DR a Tier 1 utility like it is for many other classes. Tie it to shadow/force technique so tanks can't take it. Then further balance serenity's self-heals around infiltration's additional 9% DR if necessary and I think the two disciplines are balanced between each other for PVE.

 

Then combine the 2x force lift with the heroic instant ability, and move the stun CD reduction somewhere else and call it a day.

Edited March 27, 2015 by bdatt

[mmerry]

http://i.imgur.com/NKpP8Mo.jpg

 

I saw it in the datamined stuff, was like "that can't be the case", then logged in to check it out and it was there!

 

And as you can tell, I pretty much never use my sin. Ever.

 

Ahahahahahahahaha

 

Well I guess I have to update the pts now

[Aelanis]

If I could make one suggestion, it would be to make AOE DR a Tier 1 utility like it is for many other classes. Tie it to shadow/force technique so tanks can't take it. Then further balance serenity's self-heals around infiltration's additional 9% DR if necessary and I think the two disciplines are balanced between each other for PVE.

 

Then combine the 2x force lift with the heroic instant ability, and move the stun CD reduction somewhere else and call it a day.

 

Except if you don't keep Hatred's sustained damage reasonably ahead of Deception's, there still isn't much reason to include it. The biggest problem with balancing the two disciplines' survivability is the fact that one has AoE DR and the other doesn't. Heave, Deck Guns, Mouse Droids, Death from Above, Saturation Fire, Resonance Probes, Lurkerling Slams, Dangerous Fire Devices, Not-So-Huge-Grenades, Gravity Missile, Barrel Throw, and Hammer Smash are all AoE damage, and none of them are terribly pleasant. Some are avoidable (if tough to do so for melee), but a lot aren't.

[JamieKirby]

Fall in general for shadow or they nerf only serenity?

I think melee classes have really hard times in pve at least against ranged ones...

 

Edit:

Just saw a comment of yours in another thread.

I think my shadow will remain at infiltration and i will keep him for pvp only

 

I think melee classes should get a inherent reistance to ranged attacks, cause you know how Jedi can parry pretty much all attacks if they concentrate, so i don't see why they can't have a passive ability to parry blaster bolts away, thus giving them some ranged protection.

[Luckygunslinger]

Aelanis, I have idea: 30m Serenity Strike? Heal at range, do decent damage, I mean it's no Death Field but it'd mean we could proc at 30 meters if the target has Breach.

[JouerTue]

dot spread on lacerate is a nice suggestion. it's true also that hatred need to be tunneled when you heal certain bosses..

[bdatt]

Except if you don't keep Hatred's sustained damage reasonably ahead of Deception's, there still isn't much reason to include it. The biggest problem with balancing the two disciplines' survivability is the fact that one has AoE DR and the other doesn't. Heave, Deck Guns, Mouse Droids, Death from Above, Saturation Fire, Resonance Probes, Lurkerling Slams, Dangerous Fire Devices, Not-So-Huge-Grenades, Gravity Missile, Barrel Throw, and Hammer Smash are all AoE damage, and none of them are terribly pleasant. Some are avoidable (if tough to do so for melee), but a lot aren't.

 

Which is why I suggested taking aoe DR off the table by making it a utility both can take. Then you're just balancing burst vs sustsined, and 9% DR vs self heals.

 

Maybe I'm just bad at infiltration but I'm close to 7% better in serenity on a dummy, so will still be 5% better after nerf. Maybe for better players its 2% better like you noted though. Plus I can save my stealth for use as utility and not as a rotational ability, and have other options besides the reduced cool down on blackout ulility.

[bdatt]

I really thing making AOE DR a utility solves 95% of the problem in pve. The rest is far enough in the noise BW will do what they want.

 

Making suggestions in small, easily implemented steps seems more reasonable too than a dramatic overhaul of many interacting pieces and including something brand new like an overheal absorb shield. Not that it's a bad idea but I'm sure it would take much longer to implement.

Edited March 27, 2015 by bdatt

[Aelanis]

Which is why I suggested taking aoe DR off the table by making it a utility both can take. Then you're just balancing burst vs sustsined, and 9% DR vs self heals.

 

Maybe I'm just bad at infiltration but I'm close to 7% better in serenity on a dummy, so will still be 5% better after nerf. Maybe for better players its 2% better like you noted though. Plus I can save my stealth for use as utility and not as a rotational ability, and have other options besides the reduced cool down on blackout ulility.

 

I really poorly misread that. I didn't read the AoE part Some amount of AoE DR would go a LONG way for ALL melee DPS.

 

For me, the difference is roughly 4% for average parses, and 3% on best parses, for how far apart mine are. They should get closer, though, if I got more gear and geared more towards Deception. And if I bothered to crit fish some more.

[Luckygunslinger]

Aelanis! 30m Serenity Strike! Proc at 30m, no rotational shutdown, Let's do it! Edited March 27, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[AriaOfHavoc]

Can we spam their twitter page with links to this post or something so they'll listen to us? Seriously, the powertechs complained about the pyro nerfs loud enough the PTS has at least some fixes to it. The marauders got some help after weeks of their complaints. Is there anyway we can rabble enough to get them to pay attention?

 

 

 

 

 

Also rabble rabble, fix slot machine (Still pissed).

[SalvorHardin]

. 15% added crit chance to Double Strike/Thrash (utility - affects Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash as well ^^)

. 15m range to Vanquish/Demolish and FiB/Death Field

. 2% DR that PROCs on crit damage and stacks 3 times for 15s (like Infiltration/Deception)

. 100% crit chance on Force Potency/Recklessness

 

I'm not in favor of AoE DR... At this rate, every class will ask/have one and it'll just be easier to reduce AoE damage from every boss fight really!

 

By the way, I'm pretty sure Heave is not AoE damage. At least in HM, I don't remember Hunker Down mitigating anything on my slinger and I stopped using it for that a while ago.

Edited March 27, 2015 by SalvorHardin

[Aelanis]

. 15% added crit chance to Double Strike/Thrash (utility - affects Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash as well ^^)

. 15m range to Vanquish/Demolish and FiB/Death Field

. 2% DR that PROCs on crit damage and stacks 3 times for 15s (like Infiltration/Deception)

. 100% crit chance on Force Potency/Recklessness

 

I'm not in favor of AoE DR... At this rate, every class will ask/have one and it'll just be easier to reduce AoE damage from every boss fight really!

 

By the way, I'm pretty sure Heave is not AoE damage. At least in HM, I don't remember Hunker Down mitigating anything on my slinger and I stopped using it for that a while ago.

 

That first one can't be made into a utility. At that point, you're better off making it a class passive, since everyone, even tanks will take it. I still think a slowly building damage shield would be better: it would never hit full strength in PvP, and would always be fairly large in PvE for the big hits, which would mitigate the spikes we need to mitigate better. The last suggestion you have should just happen.

 

AoE DR should be something that's melee exclusive. If you're at range, you already don't have to deal with many mechanics, so you don't need it, but it's something melee should get for putting up with stuff, and it should be something that not only excuses, but makes melee desirable for Ops.

[SalvorHardin]

Yeah, making it a utility makes no sense... I thought about it afterwards. Well it could be in bonus set or passive with non-tank stance.

 

I don't know about your shield idea. Do you mean it wouldn't work on internal damage? Cause if so, it's kind of "meh" for new ops But it made me think about one thing: changing Serenity Strike/Leaching Strike's healing to a stackable healing charge (3 max) that activates upon taking damage (cannot happen more than once every X seconds and falls off after 15 seconds if not refreshed or stack added)... Or anything that would add a rewarding "difficulty" component to survivability.

[Aelanis]

Yeah, making it a utility makes no sense... I thought about it afterwards. Well it could be in bonus set or passive with non-tank stance.

 

I don't know about your shield idea. Do you mean it wouldn't work on internal damage? Cause if so, it's kind of "meh" for new ops But it made me think about one thing: changing Serenity Strike/Leaching Strike's healing to a stackable healing charge (3 max) that activates upon taking damage (cannot happen more than once every X seconds and falls off after 15 seconds if not refreshed or stack added)... Or anything that would add a rewarding "difficulty" component to survivability.

 

No, it's not a shield in the way that the shield/absorb mechanic works in this game. Let me explain more carefully, where it's not lost in a wall of text

 

While at full health, rather than let all the healing we're doing to ourselves go to waste, we, instead, slowly build up a kind of barrier (think Static Barrier). 50% of the healing value from lifesteal (Overcharge Saber doesn't help) that would have been overheals is instead added to this barrier, up to, but not over, 10% of our maximum health. In PvE, this is roughly 5.3k extra health in full Revanite gear. With the loss of a bunch of our self heals (~30-40% fight dependent), we'll have roughly 500 average hps, and so it'll take, more or less, 11 seconds to build up the barrier. This gives us a little cushion to take those big hits, and is nearly impossible to build in PvP unless people are ignoring you, and if they do ignore you, they deserve to have a harder to kill opponent. This full shield would also make a 33k Death Mouse go from dropping you to 37% health to dropping you to 43%. I'd like to see it up at 20% of your max health, but that might be considered too strong, though taking 22 seconds to build isn't so bad.

[Vember]

Personally I'd like to see our self heals eliminated completely and see a good increase in our passive survivability to compensate. .

 

They tried that with Darkness and it killed the spec in pvp. No thanks.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Vember

[Aelanis]

They tried that with Darkness and it killed the spec in pvp. No thanks.

 

Only because of a change in perception its shift on the meta. And believe me: changing the self heals in Hatred would fix a LOT of the problems with the spec.

[Vember]

Only because of a change in perception its shift on the meta. And believe me: changing the self heals in Hatred would fix a LOT of the problems with the spec.

 

You and KBN said the exact same thing about Darkness, and you were wrong.