Every time PvP'rs whine and sniffle, PvE suffers

[MSchuyler]

You here it all the time. PvP'rs get no love. BW ignores PvP. Over on the thread where Eric announced his show for today the whining is almost intolerable. Poor, poor PvP Snowflakes. Why, if they don't get some ATTENTION, they're gonna quit. That's what they'll do! That's right! You'll see!

 

ENOUGH ALREADY!

 

IMO BW spends WAY TOO MUCH time listening to PvP Whiners and tweaking the entire game for THEIR benefit only. And every time they do, PvE suffers. What am I talking about, you ask?

 

Class Balance. That's one of the common PvP'er Whining Topics. "This class is unbalanced an IT'S NOT FAIR! BW needs to change this because I'm getting my butt beat and it's all your fault!" It couldn't possibly because the other guy is better. Nope, BW needs to nerf this because he's too damn good. How do we "fix" that which does NOT need fixing? Take it away from everyone.

 

And THAT'S what just happened to the Powertech. They took Unload away to "balance" it out. There was nothing better than a Death-from-Above followed by an Unload for an opening attack, but that's gone now because some PvP'rs complained and now every PvE Powertech is left hanging with no equivalent ability (30m radius) to replace it.

 

Now what the hell does it matter if a Powertech has unload in a PvE environment? You're not fighting other players. No NPC is complaining that you got through him. No one is begrudging that you finished a quest or completed a boss fight. It doesn't matter. It worked fine. There wasn't anything wrong with it.

 

And now we hear they're gonna "change" the lightning sorcerer. Why? Because of class balance. Who cares even a little? PvP Whiners. Yup, lightning is pretty powerful all right, and some wussy trooper might get his butt beat, so instead of learning to defend himself he whines, "It's not fair! You have to nerf lightning spec right now!"

 

And there goes another perfectly good spec down the tubes because of the PvP Whiners. Next thing you know they will be demanding that snipers have their range cut because Melee gets shot at before they can get close enough and IT'S NOT FAIR!

 

So as far as I'm concerned BW spends way too much time listening to PvP Whiners, and as a result it is slowly but surely eroding the game for the rest of us so these fat guys in the basement can fantasize that they can beat up the school bully.

[Lionflash]

TL/DR: PVPers should have adapted instead of whining. I'm going to whine instead of adapting. Edited March 20, 2015 by Lionflash

[AdrianDmitruk]

1. Hardly anyone ever complained about lightning's single target damage. The complaints were about Force Storm. Bioware went and nerfed lightning single target anyway, over the damn near UNANIMOUS objection of the PTS (seriously, I think there was like 1 person who supported the single target nerf). That loud objection included PVPers, and lots of them.

 

2. Similarly, the butthurt regarding powertechs was about shoulder cannon only having a .5 second internal cooldown, again Bioware does something similarly stupid that hardly anyone agreed with.

 

3. Look at the PVP leaderboards for marauders. Then look at how well marauders fare in the new ops (which are very melee unfriendly). "Balancing" marauders at this point would probably actually help them in PVE as well as PVP.

 

Blame Bioware's incompetence at reading comprehension, not PVPers. It's pretty clear they can't read feedback.

[DarthOvertone]

OP thinks BW actually gives two sh*ts about PvP in this game.

 

hahahahahahahaha

 

Excuse me...

 

hahahahahahahaha

[SelinaH]

I feel like the dev team is going to do what they think is best for TOR, regardless. Sure, the vocal contingent of any particular player population (whether PvE, PvP or RP) may bring certain issues to the forefront. But the devs have their own internal logic for the decisions they make, based on data and statistics that we don't have access to.

 

If all they did was pander to the playerbase, we'd all have a lot more of what we want -- temporarily, until the next go-round -- and that would probably be a bad thing for the game overall.

 

That said, it'd be nice to have a little more consistent transparency about why certain changes are implemented, as well as a better response (or any response) to rational feedback and testing. Some of the latest balance issues on PTS... eeeeh.

Edited March 20, 2015 by SelinaH

[RiVaN_]

I agree with your point OP, but not your method of making it.

 

Yeah BW is spending to much time focusing on Class Balance in PvP, I honestly think that many of the "bugs" that people are experiencing and the feeling of some fights being over tuned for SM is because of this need to Class Balance for PvP. If there are balance issues in PvP then increase the load time for WZ's and have the system turn off some abilities and make it so that all other abilities to the same amount of damage and all gear gives each player 100% health. each attach takes away a % of that health and each heal restores a %.

 

I have said it a million times, the only way to achieve class balance for PvP is to turn WZ's into a FPS style PvP match. Everyone has the EXACT same everything. that is the only way PvPers will ever be happy is if everyone is exactly equal.

There is no way to do that without destroying the PvE portion of the game and I'm sorry this is an MMO Role Playing Game, not an MMO First Person Shooter or an Online Cop-Shooter. Everyone has a role to play and you have to work together as a team to accomplish the win.

 

If you want PURE individual achievement play an FPS.

[Hei_Atzfel]

IMO BW spends WAY TOO MUCH time listening to PvP Whiners

 

Yep, Bioware listens to the PvP community SOOOOO much. So much so that they completely ignore PvP the vast majority of the time. Talk about ignorance.

[TheSeventhJedi]

I say preach on, OP. Preach on.

[bdatt]

I think the PVPers are actually right, and BW is mostly ignoring them. The only recent changes I think are PVP based are the ICD of shoulder cannon and AP being able to burst that quickly alongside their other abilities.

 

Others that are PVE based:

Lightening Sorc - Ranged burst with 2nd highest single target sustain of all classes. Needed nerf way, way bad. Should have worst single target sustained in game as ranged burst. Probably getting close to balanced there.

IO Merc - Highest single target sustained as a ranged DoT. Needed nerf bad, probably needs bigger one but better they go slowly.

PT tank - Using unload in rotation put its damage out of proportion and gave it rotational range advantage over other tanks in PVE. Not critically needed but whatever.

Hatred - I still can't explain this one but presumably they have data that the single-target DPS was superior to other melee sustained? So maybe this was PVP too but just way off the mark for what the community screamed for.

 

Regardless I'd still say most of this was PVE balance.

Edited March 20, 2015 by bdatt

[zZeroAgent]

I think the PVPers are actually right, and BW is mostly ignoring them. The only recent changes I think are PVP based are the ICD of shoulder cannon and AP being able to burst that quickly alongside their other abilities.

 

Others that are PVE based:

Lightening Sorc - Ranged burst with 2nd highest single target sustain of all classes. Needed nerf way, way bad. Should have worst single target sustained in game as ranged burst. Probably getting close to balanced there.

IO Merc - Highest single target sustained as a ranged DoT. Needed nerf bad, probably needs bigger one but better they go slowly.

PT tank - Using unload in rotation put its damage out of proportion and gave it rotational range advantage over other tanks in PVE. Not critically needed but whatever.

Hatred - I still can't explain this one but presumably they have data that the single-target DPS was superior to other melee sustained? So maybe this was PVP too but just way off the mark for what the community screamed for.

 

Regardless I'd still say most of this was PVE balance.

 

Bingo.

 

People that make these posts don't PVP at all. Why would anyone care about a PT using unload on PVP? If he's standing still for a few seconds rather than running around at ridiculous speeds, that PT is doing the enemy team a favor. Similarly, the less reasons for Sorcs to spam Force Storm the better.

 

The only PVP balance nerfs were Force Storm and Shoulder Cannon.

Edited March 20, 2015 by zZeroAgent

[KevinQCowart]

Nothing makes me lol more than PvEers trying to act tough. You hide on a PvE server and play scripted content because you can't adapt to playing against an actual player.

 

PvE got two flashpoints and two operations from the last expansion, PvPers got zero warzones and yet still have to grind two new sets of gear. So yeah we have plenty of justification to complain.

[Lunafox]

Nothing makes me lol more than PvEers trying to act tough. You hide on a PvE server and play scripted content because you can't adapt to playing against an actual player.

 

PvE got two flashpoints and two operations from the last expansion, PvPers got zero warzones and yet still have to grind two new sets of gear. So yeah we have plenty of justification to complain.

 

We don't hide, we just don't want to be around psychopaths (at least I don't). Not saying all pvpers are psychopaths, but they seem to gravitate more toward pvp servers. And don't tell me they don't, my first six months here were on a pvp server, and I played other pvp games, and yeah, full of psychopaths. I prefer to play a more relaxed game, where I can actually see to my kid, let my dog out, go to the can, and not find myself dead when I come back, with some idiot teabagging me, because he acutally *gasp* killed someone AFK or twenty levels lower.

 

OP has many valid points, and it's time PVE people started standing up for what they want too.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Lunafox

[theUndead]

I gotta say, that I actually disagree with the OP. I feel that Bioware doesn't actually pay enough attention to the PvPers. I say this because, even though they get their ranked seasons, there is no other new or interesting PvP content for them. I mean take this latest expansion. No new warzone maps, or anything really PvP related.

 

I can honestly sympathise with them. Yet on the topic of class balance, I feel that the devs will do what ever they wish regardless which vocal side approves of the changes or not. Many a time I've seen changes that PvPers don't like actually, and when they protest they are ignored.

 

If anything, the biggest culprit in the issue of balance is BW themselves. So to say the primary factor is one side crying is wrong in my opinion.

[KevinQCowart]

We don't hide, we just don't want to be around psychopaths (at least I don't). Not saying all pvpers are psychopaths, but they seem to gravitate more toward pvp servers. And don't tell me they don't, my first six months here were on a pvp server, and I played other pvp games, and yeah, full of psychopaths. I prefer to play a more relaxed game, where I can actually see to my kid, let my dog out, go to the can, and not find myself dead when I come back, with some idiot teabagging me, because he acutally *gasp* killed someone AFK or twenty levels lower.

 

OP has many valid points, and it's time PVE people started standing up for what they want too.

 

They are not pyschopaths they are just competitive gamers. Nobody crys about getting fragged in Call of Duty or Mortal Kombat because that is the nature of playing against human players. I love that feeling of farming slicing nodes on Yavin with my butthole puckered up because a team of operatives might unstealth and start knifing me. And I hope they do because I will call my guild and we will have a war. That kind of dynamic and unpredictable gameplay has endless replayablility and is way more exciting than your entire team wiping because your vanguard forgot to stand in the purple circle instead of the yellow circle .

 

If you went AFK on a PvP server outside of basecamp, thats not even a noob mistake, thats just dumb.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Dis gon be gude.

 

/popcorn

[FerkWork]

What if we play both? Does that makes double bad or half as bad. Seriously why do people act like its PvP vs PvE. It's the same thing with this class vs that class. To OP, BW only listens to itself when balancing. That is both good and bad. To the people spouting about how their play style PvE or PvP is better, that's nice you find it that way but it isn't objectively better or more fun. Seriously this nonsense from a few people is just plain childish. Edited March 20, 2015 by FerkWork

[Lunafox]

They are not pyschopaths they are just competitive gamers. Nobody crys about getting fragged in Call of Duty or Mortal Kombat because that is the nature of playing against human players. I love that feeling of farming slicing nodes on Yavin with my butthole puckered up because a team of operatives might unstealth and start knifing me. And I hope they do because I will call my guild and we will have a war. That kind of dynamic and unpredictable gameplay has endless replayablility and is way more exciting than your entire team wiping because your vanguard forgot to stand in the purple circle instead of the yellow circle .

 

If you went AFK on a PvP server outside of basecamp, thats not even a noob mistake, thats just dumb.

 

Yeah, well to each their own. I don't like being ganked, as I said I play the game to relax, not shiver in paranoia that some dbag is going to get me while I look away a second. I like being able to park myself whereever and do what I need to do on the spur of the moment. If you want to play in that kind of environment, well good for you. I don't, and if they ever forced that onto a PVE server I'd be gone so fast your head would spin, because I don't pay my hard earned money to be abused tyvm.

 

And yeah, there are psychopaths. A real competitive pvper will play with people who are present, and at a lvl similar as their own. Some pvpers will, and I can respect that. I didn't gank newbies when I played my pvp games. Skill and competitiveness is better measured battling your equals or betters, not someone less than you.

 

My point is, keep the pvp on the pvp servers, and keep it the hell out of pve. And that includes their so called efforts to balance classes. It screws things up for pve-ers, bottom line.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Lunafox

[Master-Nala]

The Livestream was very illustrative of the OP's point.

 

Despite dozens of people asking about PvP during the stream, Eric stood his ground and completely and utterly ignored them. Yes, it seems very likely that Bioware makes major changes in the game based on the whims of PvPers.

[mmmbuddah]

I think the PVPers are actually right, and BW is mostly ignoring them. The only recent changes I think are PVP based are the ICD of shoulder cannon and AP being able to burst that quickly alongside their other abilities.

 

Others that are PVE based:

Lightening Sorc - Ranged burst with 2nd highest single target sustain of all classes. Needed nerf way, way bad. Should have worst single target sustained in game as ranged burst. Probably getting close to balanced there.

IO Merc - Highest single target sustained as a ranged DoT. Needed nerf bad, probably needs bigger one but better they go slowly.

PT tank - Using unload in rotation put its damage out of proportion and gave it rotational range advantage over other tanks in PVE. Not critically needed but whatever.

Hatred - I still can't explain this one but presumably they have data that the single-target DPS was superior to other melee sustained? So maybe this was PVP too but just way off the mark for what the community screamed for.

 

Regardless I'd still say most of this was PVE balance.

 

Exactly, its laughable that people actually think that BW caters to the PVP crowd more than the pve crowd. Simply laughable.

[mmmbuddah]

The Livestream was very illustrative of the OP's point.

 

Despite dozens of people asking about PvP during the stream, Eric stood his ground and completely and utterly ignored them. Yes, it seems very likely that Bioware makes major changes in the game based on the whims of PvPers.

 

Lol. End thread.

[Jrr_hypernova]

wait so im a coward for not wanting to get ganked well doing a quest by a group of people whose idea of fun is screwing with other peoples progress? huh and here i thoght i avoided pvp because playing with a bunch of high level twits running around the starter leveling planets and killing lone players with worse gear and a lower level didnt sound fun my bad

[Happy_Puppy]

I think the PVPers are actually right, and BW is mostly ignoring them. The only recent changes I think are PVP based are the ICD of shoulder cannon and AP being able to burst that quickly alongside their other abilities.

 

Others that are PVE based:

Lightening Sorc - Ranged burst with 2nd highest single target sustain of all classes. Needed nerf way, way bad. Should have worst single target sustained in game as ranged burst. Probably getting close to balanced there.

IO Merc - Highest single target sustained as a ranged DoT. Needed nerf bad, probably needs bigger one but better they go slowly.

PT tank - Using unload in rotation put its damage out of proportion and gave it rotational range advantage over other tanks in PVE. Not critically needed but whatever.

Hatred - I still can't explain this one but presumably they have data that the single-target DPS was superior to other melee sustained? So maybe this was PVP too but just way off the mark for what the community screamed for.

 

Regardless I'd still say most of this was PVE balance.

 

I'm sorry looking at topparse's sight under operations target dummy.. Light sorcs are not even lose to 2nd highest. On live boss fights they get better do to very bad anti-melee and aoe avoidance this is a issue with bad boss design not over all dps. But on a set targets they are not parsing the 2nd highest sustained dps.

 

http://torparse.com/leaderboards.php?boss=otd

 

I do not even see any lighting spec in the top 25, there are like 3 or 4 in the top 50 parses..so how are they to 2nd highest sustained dps?

[Friend-Referral]

OP thinks BW actually gives two sh*ts about PvP in this game.

 

hahahahahahahaha

 

Excuse me...

 

hahahahahahahaha

/QFT

 

This... this so much. And I bet the only reason "class balance" —if you even wanna call it that—is more focused on PvP is because on the rest of the developmental front PvP in SWTOR has been largely ignored.

 

The OP, and anyone else who agrees with him, is ignorant and is fooling themselves. If they largely PvE, that probably adds on to their delusions and clearly points out their play style bias.

[bdatt]

I'm sorry looking at topparse's sight under operations target dummy.. Light sorcs are not even lose to 2nd highest. On live boss fights they get better do to very bad anti-melee and aoe avoidance this is a issue with bad boss design not over all dps. But on a set targets they are not parsing the 2nd highest sustained dps.

 

http://torparse.com/leaderboards.php?boss=otd

 

I do not even see any lighting spec in the top 25, there are like 3 or 4 in the top 50 parses..so how are they to 2nd highest sustained dps?

 

I don't know about that site. I use parsely. Don't look at how many of that spec are at the top, just the top parse of each spec.

 

IO merc is first, getting nerfed. Engi/sab is 2nd but since that doesn't translate to boss fights it's moot. Lightenig Sorc is 3rd but 2nd that matters.

 

Either way you look at it that leaderboard should be stacked with melee, if you could normalize for gear, not ranged classes.

[Happy_Puppy]

I don't know about that site. I use parsely. Don't look at how many of that spec are at the top, just the top parse of each spec.

 

IO merc is first, getting nerfed. Engi/sab is 2nd but since that doesn't translate to boss fights it's moot. Lightenig Sorc is 3rd but 2nd that matters.

 

Either way you look at it that leaderboard should be stacked with melee, if you could normalize for gear, not ranged classes.

 

You link does not work and you cant just say it doesn't translate so its moot...