So when is this going to be fixed?

[sxykitten]

Screenshot:

 

http://i.imgur.com/KAEW34B.jpg

 

Seriously?

6% GPU Usage?

17 FPS?

 

Settings were all set to low except character visiblity.

Not like it did any changes.

 

PC:

i5-3570

GTX 970

8GB RAM

OS & SWTOR runs on 840 EVO SSD 250GB

Fresh Win8 x64 install

 

 

never this games engine is the Beta version...SWTOR never got upgraded...thus it has major issues. even my Hardcore gaming Rig has issues...yet can play any new games Max with 1080p with 60 fps its so funny

[Ghisallo]

never this games engine is the Beta version...SWTOR never got upgraded...thus it has major issues. even my Hardcore gaming Rig has issues...yet can play any new games Max with 1080p with 60 fps its so funny

 

and again that is because this game runs differently. It has nothing to do with Beta this or Alpha that...it is about how the engine works period.

 

Many "new" engines say "feed X to the CPU and feed Y to the GPU." So you can get an okay CPU and still do well graphics wise as long as you a good GPU. Here you have the issue that more than a little rendering requires both. So you have the CPU using the "typical" CPU things AND then graphics things having to go through the CPU as well before it gets passed onto the GPU. This is why the fps meter will actually show the CPU as being the choke point as it does for the OP. Add to that issue the fact hat this game is basically single threaded. It doesn't care if you are running it on a system with 4, 6, or a thousand processors. All it cares about is a one primary core and an additionaly "secondary" core and how much cache those two cores have available to it

 

Now does that suck? Yep. Was it arguably silly as hell the license an engine made for Pentium/duo-core technology? Yep. This is probably the best in depth explanation I have found. Yes it is for another game but the same principles are applying here... Short form is that the game does send some data to another core (it was designed with duo-core in mind) but

 

The issue is that of the 30 or so threads that get sent to your CPU, one of them is HUGE and it can and will bring many of your CPUs to its knees

 

http://forums.riftgame.com/technical-discussions/tech-support/368893-your-cpu-you-why-might-not-good-enough-rift.html

 

here is the LONG but important bit. Keep in mind they are specifically talking about MMO gaming on these "legacy" engines.

 

It's been my experience that most people who buy "performance" rigs don't know the first thing about what they're buying. Case in point... we had a cleric in my guild who went out and bought a new machine and dropped a ton of money on it. When he got back in-game, he had worse performance than before. When you look at his build, he bought a slower CPU even though it was an i7... it was slower than his older i5.

 

People also slap a metric ton of RAM in their machines for no ungodly reason whatsoever. Someone somewhere told them that having 16GB of RAM would do something special like give them the ability to dial up God and bless their monitors with FPS. As we've already discussed here, when you're running 32 bit programs (almost every game is a 32 bit game) you don't use much more than 2GB. Therefore, any extra memory you have is being used on background tasks and/or simultaneous tasks (AKA running 2 games at the same time). So, if you need 16GB of RAM, that means your software environment is so bloated... I can't even begin to wrap my head around how someone could need that much RAM for gaming. 3D modeling... yeah, I can see a definite need for it but not for gaming.

 

Now, you take these people who buy 16GB of RAM and then complain to the forums that they have 5ghz CPUs with 16GB of RAM and an SSD with an OC 680 GPU... etc etc and they should be getting great FPS. To me, this tells me that the person has no idea what they're talking about. They didn't list one single stat that affects the quality and smoothness of a game's performance.

 

The people who have "performance PC" problems are most often people who have budget CPUs like I already said. People get a new i7 with a small cache and yes... the one thread loads that little budget core up and it chokes and dies. This is not surprising to me in the least. But hey, they have 16GB of RAM and a 200GB SSD with a 680 GPU that's cooled by liquid nitrogen! So what. They put a lot of expensive parts in a crap machine.

 

When you get a PC expressly for playing MMOs, you absolutely do not skimp on the MOBO and CPU. In fact, I tell people to spend at least half the total cost of the entire build or custom order on those 2 components. Everything else can be upgraded over time as needed but swapping out a CPU can be problematic given how socket sizes change over time and MOBOs are not universal like PCI-E slots. Of course, the MOBO can't be changed easily either without totally reformatting your machine and pulling all the guts out and rebuilding it anyway.

 

Still, time and time again people do the exact opposite. They order something like a Dell and they start looking at CPUs. They see a new i7 for $200 dollars... and then more i7s all the way up to nearly $2,000. They then part together a machine that's worth a good $800-$1,000 and a couple months down the road they slap on a $500 video card and max out the RAM. While you can do this for a lot of FPS games and single player games... MMOs that were made in the last 5 years will laugh at the feeble machine trying to run it.

 

There's a lot of nano-architecture and cache differences between a $200 CPU and a $2,000 CPU... even in the same family. Here's a quick list of what not to do if you want better performance not only in Rift, but in any game you play:

1) Good CPUs don't come from Best Buy.

 

2) Good CPUs don't come in premade bundles on major big box Websites.

 

3) If it has less than 6mb of L2/L3 cache... its purpose is doing things like running QuickBooks, Outlook, Word, and the occasional Pogo game, Farmville, or posting a random Facebook/Twitter update. More L2 is better. For example, mine has no L3 at all... it is 12MB of straight up L2.

 

4) If you want to run Rift on ultimate settings at high resolution with >30 fps, you need 12MB of L2/L3 cache. Period. On the newest CPUs on the market, you could probably get by with an 8MB cache.

 

5) If you're primarily an MMO gamer... invest in a server grade CPU. Search office supply sites and/or sites like Tom's Hardware and find out what good CPUs modern servers are using. Buy one of those and a MOBO to socket it into. MMOs use many times more data than other games and server CPUs are built exactly for that. These CPUs are not cheap. They typically run starting at around $1,600 and can go as high as nearly $3,000 for the newest hot off the market models (which will drop in price by 800-1000 in 6 months time). Server CPUs are also more robust and have much higher thermal tolerances and are absolutely fantastic for overclocking. For example, my QX9770 is rated "safe" to overclock to 5ghz by the factory without voiding the warranty on stock cooling. That may be so but 4ghz is just fine for me. I don't live in a climate controlled server farm. I live in Florida where it's routinely above 100F out.

 

6) In your Windows settings, go to system properties then advanced... and set your PC to maximize background tasks. Again, 32 bit games don't use much system memory. Maximizing your OS for background optimization keeps it running smoothly... especially under Win 7 and 8 where you will be routinely idling at nearly 15-20% RAM load. The only time I'd set that to optimize for active programs is if they ever switch over to a 64-bit software standard.

 

7) Minimize your total amount of background processes. A bloated OS makes for a slower PC which robs FPS from your games. This is much more important for people with limited amounts of RAM and slower CPUs.

 

8) Don't use many 3rd party "tweak" programs. Some of them are good... but too many like ASUS GPU Tweak, certain hardware monitors (most notoriously, thermal and RAM monitors) and others can really slow down in-game performance. Those tools are great for diagnostics but not really intended for full-time use.

 

9) Manage your temp. The cooler a CPU is, the faster it is. IMO, there is no reason not to liquid cool your CPU. It keeps it around 30 degrees C all the time no matter the load. You can get a kit that takes all of 15 minutes to install and it costs under $100. They're also silent and they don't dump the hot exhaust directly into your GPU sitting beside it. This extends the life of your CPU and all of your internal components. Heat kills electronics.

 

10) Make sure to check for driver updates MONTHLY. By drivers, I also mean BIOS updates. When doing PC repairs, I can't count how many times I've seen where people say they have the latest drivers but their BIOS hasn't been updated in 2 years.

 

Ok, I'm going to bold this last one... because chances are... if you're reading this and you have 16GB of RAM and are suffering poor performance... this is probably your problem:

 

11) IF YOU HAVE A HUGE STACK OF RAM (12GB+): DELETE YOUR PAGE FILE. That's right. I said to delete your windows page file (swap file). In today's day and age, with memory levels that we have, the page file is practically not used. XP forced its use, even if you tried to delete it by setting a minimum default value for specific Windows OS use. This, has been removed for some time now. The page file creates space on your hard drive that acts as virtual RAM. Your RAM (DDR2 or better) is faster than your hard drive by a huge margin. Not only does your page file do nothing for you, it would be slowing you down if you did use it. It also creates a huge block of unusable space on your hard drive. This page file was useful back when we had 2GB or less of RAM but not anymore.

 

"OH BUT LAERIS YOU'RE A MORON! YOU HAVE TO USE THE PAGE FILE FOR..." Here's the great thing about it. Delete it, reboot and go play a game. If your PC plays the game, then you didn't need the page file. Chances are, you could gain a hefty performance boost if it was hogging up your hard drive (because windows likes to use around 2-2.5x the system RAM size as a page file size... so if you have 16GB of RAM, it might be eating up 40GB of your hard drive). If you have a typical 100GB hard drive (oh so typical on those Dell machines), then half your drive is being eaten up for no reason whatsoever.

 

So, delete your page file. Control Panel>>System >>Adv. Sys Properties>> Performance, Settings...>> advanced>>Virtual memory, change...>>Set it to no page file OR if you read system log files, leave it set to manual 400MB min/max.

 

Make a test run of your favorite games with the absent page file. At worst, you'll not notice anything except a lot of free drive space. There is no downside to turning it off... but hey, if you ever want to turn it back on, it's safe and simple. Go back to the virtual memory option above and set it back to system managed size.

 

Note:DO NOT DO THE ABOVE IF YOU HAVE 4GB OF RAM OR LESS: You probably are using your page file and deleting it could slow you down quite a bit. This is only for people with very large pools of system RAM.

Lastly, I'll say this one more time. I've said it a lot over the couple of years I've been here. My rig is not one to compare yours to. I used to be a 3D Modeler and this machine was built for that. When I bought it new, my CPU alone set me back around 2 grand. The total sticker price was approaching $9,000 and I built it myself. Anyone here can get similar performance by spending only a fraction of what I did.

 

All you need is 8GB of RAM (any more is really not ever going to get used unless you're doing 64 bit programs), a CPU with a solid amount of L2 cache (but a sizable L3 or shared cache isn't bad either) and a properly managed operating environment (OS, thermal management, drivers etc). In MMOs, you can even get by with a budget GPU and still get good performance. Today, it's all about the CPU. If you don't build a solid foundation on a good CPU choice, all the other expensive toys like gobs of RAM and 680 series GPUs just won't work right for you. MMOs are process hungry programs. The amount of data going through your CPU in an hour of MMO gaming can be equal to almost half a day of playing Skyrim.

 

The reason I get the performance that I do is because I have a fast CPU that was built with a large cache. Newer consumer grade CPUs are built for process speed... not necessarily mass data handling. They have smaller caches and architecture that excel at processing instructions quickly. This is still not as efficient as processing a huge chunk of data a little slower. That is, afterall, what MMOs are about. The hardware market is stressing multicore architecture these days, but many software offerings are still not utilizing them properly. If Trion does iron out their engine, yes... people with 8 and 16 core CPUs with smaller caches will see a performance boost. To me, those are still borderline budget CPUs because those same CPUs are often offered with larger cache sizes. They're just ridiculously expensive.

 

After reading this... keep in mind that I am one of those people who has a rig that is professional grade. Given that, I have very good in-game performance. Now, I also sympathize with the majority of you who don't have the means to drop a new late model used car onto their desktop. Rift's tech barrier to entry is laughably high. It's not good that the majority of players who have $2,000-$4,000 sunk into performance machines that don't perform in Rift. Hopefully, their optimizations will lower the bar to suitable levels soon. Adding an optimized multicore/threaded friendly engine will help a lot.

 

Still, if you're thinking about buying a new PC soon or want to bookmark this post for future reference... don't get sucked into market hype. Go in knowing what you need to get the job done. Do your research and don't ignore the value of a processor's cache. Look up the CPU's specs... and if you don't know what every line means... google it and learn. CPUs are the single most important piece of hardware in your PC. If you're going to get something new and that critically important... spend an hour and learn why the one you're looking at is good for your needs. THEN, go and ask yourself if you're SURE. If you can't say without any doubt whatsoever... go back and study some more. Don't be that guy who blows 2 months pay on a PC that isn't worth every penny of it.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Hungarycell]

@Ghisallo

 

You argument about CPUs fail at the fact that this game officially should run at stable 30fps with an Intel Core 2 Duo @2.0ghz but it cant even produce that with i5s & i7s at a lot higher clock.

 

 

You keep coming "oh SWTOR is way more CPU heavy than XYZ game".

No. It has literally nothing that would make it true.

 

 

The only thing that causes this is the bad code & bad optimization.

Otherwise this wouldnt be the only game for everyone causing this.

 

Unless you want to debate that this game is the most CPU heavy on the market, which im sure many will disagree.

 

 

I dont even understand how would you think that even a small 4v4 Warzone or 4man FP would require more resources than a 64v64 Battlefield 4 match with actual physics, better graphics and everything or a GW2 WvW or pretty much any mmo with better graphics and higher player count, yet they all run better.

 

"Cuz its an MMO and SWTOR is special"

No.

SWTOR has nothing that would require more resources than anything i mentioned there is more that i could mention.

 

16 players Warzones or OPS.

You do realize how small that amount is, especially nowadays and especially for PC?

 

Im also 100% positive that i gave a chance for Rift once and that was back with a 560 and it ran way better than SWTOR for sure.

It didnt drop 10fps down just because i used a skill.

You know what? When i get home im going DL it and check it out. Trust me it IS going to run better than SWTOR.

 

Why?

Because the problem is with SWTOR.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Hungarycell

[Ghisallo]

@Ghisallo

 

You argument about CPUs fail at the fact that this game officially should run at stable 30fps with an Intel Core 2 Duo @2.0ghz but it cant even produce that with i5s & i7s at a lot higher clock.

 

 

You keep coming "oh SWTOR is way more CPU heavy than XYZ game".

No. It has literally nothing that would make it true.

 

 

The only thing that causes this is the bad code & bad optimization.

Otherwise this wouldnt be the only game for everyone causing this.

 

Unless you want to debate that this game is the most CPU heavy on the market, which im sure many will disagree.

 

 

I dont even understand how would you think that even a small 4v4 Warzone or 4man FP would require more resources than a 64v64 Battlefield 4 match with actual physics, better graphics and everything or a GW2 WvW or pretty much any mmo with better graphics and higher player count, yet they all run better.

 

"Cuz its an MMO and SWTOR is special"

No.

SWTOR has nothing that would require more resources than anything i mentioned there is more that i could mention.

 

16 players Warzones or OPS.

You do realize how small that amount is, especially nowadays and especially for PC?

 

Im also 100% positive that i gave a chance for Rift once and that was back with a 560 and it ran way better than SWTOR for sure.

It didnt drop 10fps down just because i used a skill.

You know what? When i get home im going DL it and check it out. Trust me it IS going to run better than SWTOR.

 

Why?

Because the problem is with SWTOR.

 

Well mine runs stable at 50+ with the spec I listed previously. Others also pointed out the whole system settings issues etc.

 

If you actually read my arguments and don't keep projecting I say the following...

 

SWTOR has many issues however the fps issue can be mitigated if you stop thinking of SWTOR the way you do your other games, especially non-MMO games.

 

 

First about Rift... Nope you are wrong. I have been there since closed testing and it was and is worse than SWTOR and at times was literally unplayable.T

 

Next the problems are based in how SWTOR is coded but that does NOT mean there are not things on our end that can be done to mitigate the issue. The issue SWTOR has is in the engine and it won't get fixed. They can do tweeks here and there but that is it. People thus have three options.

 

1. Do what you can on your end to mitigate the issue.

2. Stop playing the game.

3. Keeping complaining about an issue that SWTOR has limited ability to fix due to its nature and you could mitigate yourself but refuse too...

 

I simply refuse to do number 3. I see that like the old saying about insanity..."insanity is when youcontinue to perform the same action expecting a different result". So that leaves me with number 1 or 2. Number 1 worked for me.

 

Edit: sometimes I will drop down into the low 40's when stuff gets really crazy...what is my choke point though? Same as the OPs... My CPU. See that is the funny thing...everyone that has actually bothered to see what their choke point is is finding out it is their CPU...but the CPU isn't relevant? ROFL. You last line is half right...SWTOR used a single threaded engine. If you know what that means you would know simply having a multi-core processor means CRAP all because you only use one primary core at a time. So saying "if a Duocore works then i5 or i7 better" is not necessarily true.

 

That i5 or i7 is expecting data to be sent to multiple cores for processing and this game shoves the lion's share all on a single core. This is where cache comes in. Want to keep on being frustrated? Keep beotching about something SWTOR simply can't change any time soon. Want to stop beotching either quit the game or look at you system for the improvements I can pretty much guarantee you could make on your end.

 

It will never perform as well as a Mass Effect or whatever BUT you can certainly get it to play decently (most of the time)

Edited March 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Hungarycell]

Well mine runs stable at 50+ with the spec I listed previously. Others also pointed out the whole system settings issues etc.

 

If you actually read my arguments and don't keep projecting I say the following...

 

 

 

 

First about Rift... Nope you are wrong. I have been there since closed testing and it was and is worse than SWTOR and at times was literally unplayable.T

 

Next the problems are based in how SWTOR is coded but that does NOT mean there are not things on our end that can be done to mitigate the issue. The issue SWTOR has is in the engine and it won't get fixed. They can do tweeks here and there but that is it. People thus have three options.

 

1. Do what you can on your end to mitigate the issue.

2. Stop playing the game.

3. Keeping complaining about an issue that SWTOR has limited ability to fix due to its nature and you could mitigate yourself but refuse too...

 

I simply refuse to do number 3. I see that like the old saying about insanity..."insanity is when youcontinue to perform the same action expecting a different result". So that leaves me with number 1 or 2. Number 1 worked for me.

 

Edit: sometimes I will drop down into the low 40's when stuff gets really crazy...what is my choke point though? Same as the OPs... My CPU. See that is the funny thing...everyone that has actually bothered to see what their choke point is is finding out it is their CPU...but the CPU isn't relevant? ROFL. You last line is half right...SWTOR used a single threaded engine. If you know what that means you would know simply having a multi-core processor means CRAP all because you only use one primary core at a time. So saying "if a Duocore works then i5 or i7 better" is not necessarily true.

 

That i5 or i7 is expecting data to be sent to multiple cores for processing and this game shoves the lion's share all on a single core. This is where cache comes in. Want to keep on being frustrated? Keep beotching about something SWTOR simply can't change any time soon. Want to stop beotching either quit the game or look at you system for the improvements I can pretty much guarantee you could make on your end.

 

It will never perform as well as a Mass Effect or whatever BUT you can certainly get it to play decently (most of the time)

 

"1. Do what you can on your end to mitigate the issue."

 

Umm what exactly?

There is nothing to do.

Everything else runs fine.

If its not broken dont fix it.

 

 

" The issue SWTOR has is in the engine and it won't get fixed. They can do tweeks here and there but that is it."

 

It wont get fixed. Probably.

Can it be fixed? Yes.

 

Its up to the devs and they can do it without changing engine, they have to fix their engine.

 

Im sorry but if COD can still use Quake 3's engine to run flawlessly at 1080p60fps with nextgen effects and models and whatever on a more like 15 years old engine that constantly gets modified by the devs to make it better, it shows that is not impossible.

We also have multiple games from PS3 gen running on UE "2.5".

 

Its up to BW to fix their game, it always was.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Hungarycell

[Ghisallo]

"1. Do what you can on your end to mitigate the issue."

 

Umm what exactly?

There is nothing to do.

Everything else runs fine.

If its not broken dont fix it.

 

You are comparing apples to oranges. You have games that run on full multi-core support and games that shove Mose if not all graphics render to the GPU. SWTOR does neither of these. Is this at its foundation the fault of Bioware for using an old engine? Yes... But you need to stop assuming that all games use you hardware the same.

 

In SWTORs case the majority of the time you will see your CPU is the choke point. Why? First it is single threaded and your Multi-core processor doesn't like it. If you have an AMD processor it it even worse because they like Single threaded processes even less than Intel. After that where another game may shove most rendering direct to the GPU SWTOR doesn't. The reason FPS is tanking often comes down to the fact the GPU is sitting there waiting for the single thread going to the CPU to pass on data so it can be rendered.

 

So what can you do? As I said say "this is an antiquated engine that doesn't utilize my hardware properly OR you can look at your CPU...how much cache does it have? What background processes am I running? Etc.

It wont get fixed. Probably.

Can it be fixed? Yes.

 

It makes NO financial sense to fix it. This is an issue with the core of the engine itself. Everything in the game is built based on this. They essentially would be putting in the same time and effort as it would take to make a brand new game.

 

Im sorry but if COD can still use Quake 3's engine to run flawlessly at 1080p60fps with nextgen effects and models and whatever on a more like 15 years old engine that constantly gets modified by the devs to make it better, it shows that is not impossible.

We also have multiple games from PS3 gen running on UE "2.5".

 

And this just proves my point...you don't understand how the different engines work. Playing CoD deals with half the crap you deal with in MMOs. There is so much more info being shoved into that single thread in an MMO than an engine designed for arena PvP even before you get to the graphics. When you look at that engine it was ahead of its time. Even the Unreal engine not not require an Open GL compliant graphics card...I'd tech 3 did. It simply sends a lot more straight to the GPU to render because the engine does not include a software renderer. The HeroEngine was developed in roughly the same time frame and does do some rendering.

 

Please stop with apples to oranges comparisons.

 

Again I am not saying that SWTORs Engine is not the "start" of the issues. The problem is they can't fix it. At best they can do some tweeks to try an off load some rendering here or there to the video card more but in the end the fact they can't off load it all AND shove everything onto a single thread means that it can't be really fixed without basically making a brand new game with a brand new engine.

 

There are optimizations that can be done on our end though. When I got my latest system I specifically got bits with games like SWTOR in mind and had to compromise. I would love to Fraps or stream but know it will kill my fps (as an example) since I didn't want to blow the money in an i7 with 12mb of cache. Since I know how the game works and tailoredtailored my system around it I get better performance in this game than you do. I suspect you would get better performance in say Mass Effect or AC:U than I do because I cut corners on the bits that made those games run better but that have less effect on a game like SWTOR.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Hungarycell]

You are comparing apples to oranges. You have games that run on full multi-core support and games that shove Mose if not all graphics render to the GPU. SWTOR does neither of these. Is this at its foundation the fault of Bioware for using an old engine? Yes... But you need to stop assuming that all games use you hardware the same.

 

In SWTORs case the majority of the time you will see your CPU is the choke point. Why? First it is single threaded and your Multi-core processor doesn't like it. If you have an AMD processor it it even worse because they like Single threaded processes even less than Intel. After that where another game may shove most rendering direct to the GPU SWTOR doesn't. The reason FPS is tanking often comes down to the fact the GPU is sitting there waiting for the single thread going to the CPU to pass on data so it can be rendered.

 

So what can you do? As I said say "this is an antiquated engine that doesn't utilize my hardware properly OR you can look at your CPU...how much cache does it have? What background processes am I running? Etc.

 

 

It makes NO financial sense to fix it. This is an issue with the core of the engine itself. Everything in the game is built based on this. They essentially would be putting in the same time and effort as it would take to make a brand new game.

 

 

 

And this just proves my point...you don't understand how the different engines work. Playing CoD deals with half the crap you deal with in MMOs. There is so much more info being shoved into that single thread in an MMO than an engine designed for arena PvP even before you get to the graphics. When you look at that engine it was ahead of its time. Even the Unreal engine not not require an Open GL compliant graphics card...I'd tech 3 did. It simply sends a lot more straight to the GPU to render because the engine does not include a software renderer. The HeroEngine was developed in roughly the same time frame and does do some rendering.

 

Please stop with apples to oranges comparisons.

 

Again I am not saying that SWTORs Engine is not the "start" of the issues. The problem is they can't fix it. At best they can do some tweeks to try an off load some rendering here or there to the video card more but in the end the fact they can't off load it all AND shove everything onto a single thread means that it can't be really fixed without basically making a brand new game with a brand new engine.

 

There are optimizations that can be done on our end though. When I got my latest system I specifically got bits with games like SWTOR in mind and had to compromise. I would love to Fraps or stream but know it will kill my fps (as an example) since I didn't want to blow the money in an i7 with 12mb of cache. Since I know how the game works and tailoredtailored my system around it I get better performance in this game than you do. I suspect you would get better performance in say Mass Effect or AC:U than I do because I cut corners on the bits that made those games run better but that have less effect on a game like SWTOR.

 

"Comparing apples to oranges"

 

Yeah maybe i will take you seriously when you stop treating SWTOR as the most special game.

 

You are literally saying that you need a high-end CPU and that clocked to 4-5ghz to run it at 30fps at least.

 

Do you even read what you say? Its ridiculous.

The fact that ONLY, i repeat ONLY this game has a problem for everyone is simply states that the problem IS with SWTOR.

 

And you didnt get what i said.

Im sorry but if other developers can make 10-15 years old engines perform as current ones, sometimes even better, then that pretty much shows that Bioware is incompetent, because they cant get their game work well.

 

You also keep coming with "bruh its very CPU heavy and single core only".

Sure man, sure.

Now tell me how ca nbe a 4v4 Warzone be so heavy that a single 3,4 core can handle it with dated graphics, no physics(ok we have a tiny bit of cloth physics wow) and pretty much nothing would require anything CPU.

You just keeping going back to "ITS AN MMO ITS CPU HEAVY"

Yet you ignore the fact that there are older MMOs that have more way player count and everything, probably even better graphics and doesnt have FPS problems.

 

OLDER MMOs. Not talking about WoW that got constantly updated.

Even back in 2002 in Neverwitner Nights you could host a 64 player server and play fine.

2002 man.

 

Even better, you can host your own private MMO servers on your PC and play it with many players on it that still have better performance.

 

You keep saying MMO & CPU heavy.

Well tell me how a 4v4 Warzone is more CPU heavy than a 128 player BF match with 1000x more stuff going on.

I know. Bad code, bad optimization, lazy devs.

 

No im sorry, but the fact tha a 8player match can go under 30fps on lowest settings is just ridiculous.

Yet you defend it. That even more ridiculous.

 

Best thing is, everyone running every other existing game fine, but not SWTOR.

And you & CS is like: "well guys its your PC"

 

lol

I could probably emulate a PS2 version of FFXI or other console MMO and play it(if it would have working servers) with better performance.

 

And it makes no financial sense?

Really?

You dont see the constant decrease in player numbers?

Wow.

 

 

 

Maybe one day you will realize that SWTOR has nothing that should make good PC go under even 60fps and its all the developer's fault.

You dont get around that.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Hungarycell

[Hockaday]

2500K and SLI 980s seems like an odd pairing to me. You're likely bottlenecked on the cpu often and won't be seeing much performance increase over a similar rig using a single GTX 960. I've seen cpu bottlenecks on my 2600K with a single GTX 770.

 

That seems odd...an i5 2500k shouldn't bottle neck much, assuming you OC it and such. There aren't many CPUs really to upgrade to currently. At least that is my understanding. I mean to push mine to 4.5 or maybe a bit higher, 4.8...but I'm not sure about my MOBO. Never buying Gigabyte again.

 

Edit: It should be noted that I say I believe a GPU -will- help this game for -me- is that a lot of the time my fps -is- being limited by the GPU, according to SW:TOR. My GPU was old when I bought it, it's even older now.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Hockaday

[Ghisallo]

That seems odd...an i5 2500k shouldn't bottle neck much, assuming you OC it and such. There aren't many CPUs really to upgrade to currently. At least that is my understanding. I mean to push mine to 4.5 or maybe a bit higher, 4.8...but I'm not sure about my MOBO. Never buying Gigabyte again.

 

Edit: It should be noted that I say I believe a GPU -will- help this game for -me- is that a lot of the time my fps -is- being limited by the GPU, according to SW:TOR. My GPU was old when I bought it, it's even older now.

 

Well this really ends up being an issue. First a bottle neck is often an intellectual exercise. My GPU is far from the best, R7 200 series BUt still when I am looking at what SWTOR is telling me is my bottle neck it is usually the CPU. Even then I am usually getting 50-60 fps on fleet, I drop into the low 40's (average) in an OP. Again the CPU being the typical bottle neck (i5 4690k.) So really I am not going to notice anything being slow or choppy BUT from a technical stand point I am still bottle necking somewhere, and in my case it is the CPU 90% of the time.

 

Then you end up going into subjective land...

 

I know people who will say the fleet frame rates are borderline acceptable and the OPS frame rates are not acceptable. Basically they have a "floor" of 60 fps. Now I really don't see a "problem" until I start getting below 30 fps. The legacy engines actually made extensive use of motion blur and the like to deal with the fact that by their nature (back in the day) the FPS was far lower. Additionally I wonder how many of these people understand that more than 60 fps is only giving you "head room" so above 70 is really just a "hey ain't I cool look at my fps!!!"

 

I don't know about anyone else but both of my monitors (I run a 2 monitor set up) have a max refresh rate of 60 Hertz. This means they are incapable of showing more than 60 frames per second.

[Ghisallo]

"Comparing apples to oranges"

 

Yeah maybe i will take you seriously when you stop treating SWTOR as the most special game.

 

You are literally saying that you need a high-end CPU and that clocked to 4-5ghz to run it at 30fps at least.

 

 

not saying that in the least. You want to think that in order to continue your diatribe. First I am saying that the generation of the HeroEngine that SWTOR is built on is based around a different paradigm than the games you are comparing it too thus it is an apples an oranges comparison you make. I, and I am sure others take note, that you have yet to actually answer any of my questions with technical information, basically they are long winded "no you must be wrong!!!"

 

Second I do not have a high end system like the guy whose post I linked. I posted my specs earlier but I run an i5 4690k that you can pick up for between 200-300 bucks and a $99 dollar video card. YEAH thats hight end all right rofl.

 

The fact that ONLY, i repeat ONLY this game has a problem for everyone is simply states that the problem IS with SWTOR.

 

I have never said this is not the case... quite the opposite. What I have said is that it is indeed Bioware's fault that they used such an engine. HOWEVER, if you stop feeling sorry for yourself, check your settings and what you have running in the background etc and have a CPU with at least 6mb of cache there is NO exucse for not getting 50-60 fps on fleet and 30-40 in an OP. That is all I said.

 

Should we have to do that? That is for individuals to decide.

 

Im sorry but if other developers can make 10-15 years old engines perform as current ones, sometimes even better, then that pretty much shows that Bioware is incompetent, because they cant get their game work well.

 

and again you ignore the fact that every 10-15 year old engine and every game genre is not equal. If you believe the amount of data (graphics NOT included) that COD is feeding to the CPU is anywhere close to what an MMO feeds, you are I am sorry either ignorant, naive, in denial or all of the above.

 

I mean if this was not the case EVERY SINGLE GAME you have named would not either A. be designed to feed EVERYTHING to the GPU B. be designed with mutli-core support or C. all of the above. Hell in your OP you even note the low load on your GPU. Why is that because the CPU is doing some rendering for god sake. It's called simple logic... which seems to be beyond you.

 

Lets use your last laughable example... the id tech 3 engine. If you think that an engine designed to feed EVERYTHING to be rendered to a video card (the id tech 3 engine COD used to use) is going to put the same same load on the CPU as an engine that feeds data to be rendered to the CPU... well double the above.

 

I think it is time to end this debate because you are simply ignorant on how computer programs use hardware differently (whether intentional or not I just don't know) and are so invested in this "I can't do anything it is 100% Bioware's fault" victim attitude that God himself could come down and say you were wrong and you would say "sure bruh."

 

I will just leave it with this. look at the specs

 

i5-4690K processor

8GB DDR3 memory

AMD Radeon R7 250X graphics

120 GB SSD and 1tb HDD.

Win 8.1

 

I get 30-40 fps in 16 man OPs, 50-60 on fleet, our CPUs are comparable and you video card kicks my ***... then either my computer has a special version of the game client OR there is something on your end.

[Vertex]

I have similiar issues, AMD Radeon HD 7950 / AMD Phenom II X6 3.2Ghz / 10GB DDR3 / Windows 7 64-bit.

I'm getting about 15 fps in Warzones and 30+ everywhere else in the game. Running the game on very high right down to very low makes absolutely no difference i remain at 15 fps with my GPU and CPU usage both around 20%.

 

Every other game I play runs fine on Maximum graphical settings so I don't understand how people can be saying this isn't an issue on Biowares end. I've reinstalled multple times tried different SSD's, Overclocked everything to the max, updated drivers etc

 

I've actually tried to contact Customer Service about this issue around 7 times over the last year or so, and i've never received a helpful response. I've posted on the Customer Service forum and recieved no reply, called the phone support number and was told to post an in-game ticket and then posted an in-game ticket and was told to post on the forums - they just sent me round in circles with generic replies. I'm not even asking them to admit there is compatibility issues with the game, I have just been asking them what hardware I should upgrade to increase my FPS as I am a warzone junky and 15 FPS is basically unplayable.

 

TLDR - It's a known issue, i've tried to contact Bioware multiple times about it and received no response all i can suggest is using Swtor Unleashed as it seems to help my FPS to some degree.

[Ghisallo]

AMD CPUs are well known for handling single threaded applications worse than Intel. As SWTOR is single threaded....

 

Here is single threaded benchmark testing....

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

 

Hence one of the reasons I picked my CPU. Cheap...BUT just outside the top 10 of CPUs for handling single threaded MMOs and that is all I really play. If you look down the list you will see...sadly...how far down you particular processor is for this purpose.

 

The problem u have is that first more than a little of the graphics of this game go through the CPU first so you can have a meh graphics card and do well IF you have an appropriate CPU, the game is single threaded and your CPU is not a good one for single threaded applications.

 

Also PS no one is saying the issue doesn't start with Bioware's choice of an engine. What we are saying is that if you build a computer with that kind of game/engine in mind you can mitigate the issue.

 

Example...I have a Dremel, a jig saw and a rotary saw in my basement. Every one of them can cut wood. However I do not try to use the Dremel to cut a 2x4 and I do not use the Rotary saw to try and do fine work. Each tool for it's job.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[lokimogor]

AMD CPUs are well known for handling single threaded applications worse than Intel. As SWTOR is single threaded....

 

Here is single threaded benchmark testing....

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

 

Hence one of the reasons I picked my CPU. Cheap...BUT just outside the top 10 of CPUs for handling single threaded MMOs and that is all I really play. If you look down the list you will see...sadly...how far down you particular processor is for this purpose.

 

The problem u have is that first more than a little of the graphics of this game go through the CPU first so you can have a meh graphics card and do well IF you have an appropriate CPU, the game is single threaded and your CPU is not a good one for single threaded applications.

 

Also PS no one is saying the issue doesn't start with Bioware's choice of an engine. What we are saying is that if you build a computer with that kind of game/engine in mind you can mitigate the issue.

 

Example...I have a Dremel, a jig saw and a rotary saw in my basement. Every one of them can cut wood. However I do not try to use the Dremel to cut a 2x4 and I do not use the Rotary saw to try and do fine work. Each tool for it's job.

 

Great illustration of why designing for the purpose is critical

[Hockaday]

Problem is, his CPU is just marginally better than an i5 2500k, I don't have his issues. Not arguing that a better etc etc cpu wouldn't help. But something does seem to be amiss. I ran this at clock speeds just fine, so should he...

 

Try disabling or putting your shadow quality to low, map cascades to medium. /shrug. All I can think.

[Ghisallo]

Problem is, his CPU is just marginally better than an i5 2500k, I don't have his issues. Not arguing that a better etc etc cpu wouldn't help. But something does seem to be amiss. I ran this at clock speeds just fine, so should he...

 

Try disabling or putting your shadow quality to low, map cascades to medium. /shrug. All I can think.

 

Well its not just game settings (though people will try to run an MMO on max setting JUST because they can run a completely unrelated game on the same.) If you have a borderline system it could be a host of things. Example, don't know if it is still a problem but Chrome used to have an issue where after you closed it a process would stay open. One day I checked and had multiple processes up each taking up over 20mb per process.

Have FRAPs running? Oi that's a killer....

Steaming video services? Oi.

Plus all the other little background things if you have Razer, Logitech etc gaming software running etc.

[Hockaday]

Well its not just game settings (though people will try to run an MMO on max setting JUST because they can run a completely unrelated game on the same.) If you have a borderline system it could be a host of things. Example, don't know if it is still a problem but Chrome used to have an issue where after you closed it a process would stay open. One day I checked and had multiple processes up each taking up over 20mb per process.

Have FRAPs running? Oi that's a killer....

Steaming video services? Oi.

Plus all the other little background things if you have Razer, Logitech etc gaming software running etc.

 

Yeah, but for his system it shouldn't be an issue (besides perhaps FRAPS, but he couldn't really be recording while complaining about these problems...could he?). I mean I 3D model (solidworks) and play this game, at the very least I always have something streaming in the background (video). I use chrome, with 5-30 tabs open at a time. Why his problem boggles me...screams something is wrong on his end.

 

Dunno, nothing anyone in here can do. Time to take it to a shop or something..unless the specs he's giving us aren't accurate.

[Ghisallo]

Well he did say at one point "background tasks consists: Skype, Fraps, Daemon Tools and pretty much thats it". at some point but then he said he saw no change when he turned em off. This is tbh, impossible, if his system is working properly. Even if it is just a jump of say 5 fps (for sake of argument) turning off three resource hogs should give you some change for the better. No change at all makes no sense, even for SWTOR.

 

He also went onto say that he only uses Windows Defender because he uses his head BUT Windows Defender SUCKS....even for free Antivirus protection. Its easy to use and light on resources yes but don't take my word for it...http://www.av-test.org/en/antivirus/home-windows/windows-8/april-2014/... So in real world testing it is at best 20% behind on protecting your system than the industry average. It scored a ZERO. Please note the test is also using is proclaimed OS... Windows 8. In the details of that test (which I found elsewhere) Windows defender actually stopped threats at a rate 20% lower than the industry average.

[Hockaday]

Meh, I need to get a different anti virus, but the only one I have ever been happy with is either paid (webroot gaming edition) or Defender. Every other one screws up gaming etc in my experience. Bitdefender is the absolute worst, deleting files on its own etc.

 

Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but AV detection, etc.etc is just part of the equation... being able to set it to not auto delete your files etc would be nice to know.

 

I still don't get any infections...but I do use my head / scan with multiple tools once in a while.

[Ghisallo]

Meh, I need to get a different anti virus, but the only one I have ever been happy with is either paid (webroot gaming edition) or Defender. Every other one screws up gaming etc in my experience. Bitdefender is the absolute worst, deleting files on its own etc.

 

Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but AV detection, etc.etc is just part of the equation... being able to set it to not auto delete your files etc would be nice to know.

 

I still don't get any infections...but I do use my head / scan with multiple tools once in a while.

 

I don't know, as long as u are good at settings most of the paid ones are pretty good with games now. Hell even Norton's is like 1/10th the hog it used to be. Also most people I know have no issues with bit defender if they put it in "gaming" mode. If you are going to go free though you do indeed to do it right. Don't rely on one. Have one as your main of course but when you do actual scans use multiple. Avast and AVG are two of my favorites in Freeland.

[Hockaday]

I may try bit defender again later. I tried one before where it would block applications like crazy, and I'm fairly certain bitdefender would permanently delete my files. Webroot seems really good, and works like a charm, only 20 bucks year.

 

I'll check it out later though.

 

Now I'm wanting to buy a server CPU thanks to this thread...I'm going to school for Industrial Design...hrm...sounds like something that I'd "need" for school.

[Ghisallo]

I may try bit defender again later. I tried one before where it would block applications like crazy, and I'm fairly certain bitdefender would permanently delete my files. Webroot seems really good, and works like a charm, only 20 bucks year.

 

I'll check it out later though.

 

Now I'm wanting to buy a server CPU thanks to this thread...I'm going to school for Industrial Design...hrm...sounds like something that I'd "need" for school.

 

Well if you tried it before in "game mode" likely better not to try again. Like I said I have heard "good" from friends but read "bad" online. I will admit to a dirty secret. I use Norton's. My ISP gives it to me for free, I go in an set it to ignore all my game related stuff and it is pretty svelte now for such a "full service" program. I also need the full service...my wife basically killed 2 systems when I used to use a combination of AVG and malwarebytes. I managed to raise one from the dead but had to bury the other lol. I still use malwarebytes as a monthly "back up" scan.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Orizuru]

BitDefender got a lot of bad reviews a few years ago for 2 primary reasons. The first being that is was the most effective AV solution on the market for a period of time that was much longer than the norm for these types of product. This resulted in many viruses being developed in ways that specifically targeted systems running BitDefender software. BitDefender responded well to all of the threats, but users perceived the software as being more vulnerable than competitor products in much the same way that Windows is perceived to be more vulnerable than OS-X and Linux.

 

The second thing to tarnish the reputation of BitDefender was a shameless marketing strategy that made the software behave like AdWare. For a period of about 3-4 years they allowed their software to generate a full screen pop-up ad to try and convince customers to upgrade their BitDefender products and renew licenses. It was a horrible thing to do with a product that is meant to protect a computer from things that behave this way. And it would generate these ads even while Game Mode was enabled. When I played WoW there was a progression raid where I had 6 of these pop-up ads over the course of one 3 hour raid, and 4 of these where in the middle of a tank swap mechanic where I was one of the tanks, which resulted in wipes. I was absolutely livid over this, and my frustration was further compounded by the fact I still had more than 200 days left on my BitDefender license when it was generating these ads to encourage me to renew my license before it expired. The BitDefender forums exploded when this happened and the company stood by this and defended their shameless actions for several years before they finally changed their marketing strategy and removed this "feature" from their software

 

Today, its a pretty good product again for the most part. There are a few competitors that offer a better level of protection, but the price and resource management of those products keeps BitDefender in the running fairly well.

 

Their Game Mode is a gimmick though. All it really does is suppress notifications from the software while its enabled. It does very little to reduce resource usage.

[Ghisallo]

Thanks for the update... On bit defender...never used it myself because I just found other options first.

[Hungarycell]

Well its not just game settings (though people will try to run an MMO on max setting JUST because they can run a completely unrelated game on the same.) If you have a borderline system it could be a host of things. Example, don't know if it is still a problem but Chrome used to have an issue where after you closed it a process would stay open. One day I checked and had multiple processes up each taking up over 20mb per process.

Have FRAPs running? Oi that's a killer....

Steaming video services? Oi.

Plus all the other little background things if you have Razer, Logitech etc gaming software running etc.

 

I tried running it on all low. No difference.

How is FRAPS a killer?

Overlay showing FPS is a killer?

Im sure its 2015 not 1995.

 

 

You should also question your knowldege because you said FRAPS, Skype & Daemon Tools would have an effect on performance.

That would be true maybe 10 years earlier.

 

 

You try so hard to find a problem where is none.

My PC has no problems. The game does.

 

 

I wish you could come here and do with my PC whatever you want to "fix" it so it would run SWTOR good and you would be just shaking your head, because there arent any problems with my PC and you would just feel embarrased.

 

Obviously, when i tried the game on multiple OSs, HDD/SSD, GPUs and even totally different PCs, yet all gave the same results, these things certainly lead back to what you still keep thinking, that is my PC has some problem.

 

Yes, im sure all those 4-5 PCs i tried it on have faulty hardware, full of trojans and all of those effect only SWTOR somehow.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Hungarycell

[Ghisallo]

kid I am not even going to waste my time anymore... Other people who have a clue have given up as well... For every response you make on this issue...from this point forward will have the same response...

 

Here is where you can see a kid deny all help advice and knowledge with little more than "because I and other people say so.". Even though he may take 4 paragraphs to say it.

 

Because if you had a clue you would know FRAPs is a resource big. You obviously have no clue about how computers work and refuse to acknowledge you may have some ignorance (which all humans do) and then inform yourself. A Capt of mine once said " when you walk into a room when two people are already yelling at each other you can't tell who the idiot or crazy is.". Well scream to your hearts content because the post above proves just how ignorant you are.... bit you are just too blind to see it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Ghisallo