No Unload, no problem?

[Kingsbount]

I especially love those reasons for unsub and QQ'ing:

1. But It was fun ability

2. But... my rotation...

3. But now i can't role-play

4. But It was so stylish

 

Seriously?

[BishopSMASH]

Your point is just based on pre-3.0 information. Pushback for channeled abilities doesn't exist anymore in 3.0.

 

Good to know. However a lot of these complaints are stemming from people growing too fond of the ability, which happened way before 3.0 hit. Also it really became controversial long before 3.0, and this was one reason for the controversy, which is why I bring it up. And considering the whole argument is talking in past terms, since the ability is no longer here and had such a short lived presence in 3.0 as opposed to pre 3, I don't have an issue bringing up all the reasons why it shouldn't have been used.

 

Besides that was hardly my main point. Regardless of whether or not pushback was suffered I still talked about other reasons it was a poor choice to use.

Edited March 20, 2015 by BishopSMASH

[HaemmernZeit]

There we are, a good point. Now we have something to discuss.

 

I conceded in my original post that sure, it added a bit of dps for tanks. My issue with it was the pushback you suffer as a tank, first, and second you had plenty of more mobile abilities that allowed for performing mechanics while generating threat, which you could not do if you were channelling unload on cool down. I would rarely use it, and when I did use it, it was usually accompanied by a "yolo" in TS. It held no place in any part of my rotation, yet I never lost threat, which is far more important than dps for a tank.

 

In most every pull the first several seconds of a pull are dedicated to the tanks getting the boss into position. They could not do that if they were channeling unload, so the little dps, thus threat, increase that came with it was outweighed by the demand to perform mechanics. Torque, bulo, lurker, sparky, master if you're the tank who grabs him, malaphar depending on raid strat. And that's just for current bosses. Older tier bosses this is applicable to are grob, draxus, raptus, council etc. You could not channel it when movement is required, which is often in tanks, especially openers, where threat is most important to generate. So in that time spent moving you would generate more threat going through a typical rotation without unload. PT tanks already generated enough snap threat with shoulder cannon and a good opener that did not include unload to render said ability's threat irrelevant.

 

The point being it's a cost vs benefit to using it. You could use it in the stationary parts of the fight for a little dps gain, but besides the .01% of times where that MIGHT equal a clear (though usually when bosses are cleared when only one person is left standing it's because a sage put weaken mind and/or mind crush on the boss and barriered, reducing that percent even further) it really added no benefit to the tank. Threat matters more than dps for a tank, and all you really need to do to maintain threat in the rest of a fight is a taunt.

 

That is why I stand by my point that it held no relevance to a pt tank, and why it's perfectly fine for it to be removed.

 

Anyone who used unload as an opener was wrong. That was just stupid to do. You don't need to be moving the entire fight, so people complaining about mobility shouldn't be. There are so many tank swap mechanics where you don't have to worry about moving the boss. Or if there is stuff on the ground (fire in torque/the walkers) having that extra ranged attack helps a lot.

There were times when I would push my heat over 40 on purpose knowing that I would TSO unload into a firestorm and be far under 40 heat at the end. Much better at keeping heat under control with that than what is possible now.

And like I said earlier, tanking is just flame burst x1000 plus a few extra random abilities. It kinda why I don't like canage now that its massacre x1000 then gore window. The spec is boring.

[BishopSMASH]

Anyone who used unload as an opener was wrong. That was just stupid to do. You don't need to be moving the entire fight, so people complaining about mobility shouldn't be. There are so many tank swap mechanics where you don't have to worry about moving the boss. Or if there is stuff on the ground (fire in torque/the walkers) having that extra ranged attack helps a lot.

There were times when I would push my heat over 40 on purpose knowing that I would TSO unload into a firestorm and be far under 40 heat at the end. Much better at keeping heat under control with that than what is possible now.

And like I said earlier, tanking is just flame burst x1000 plus a few extra random abilities. It kinda why I don't like canage now that its massacre x1000 then gore window. The spec is boring.

 

Essentially then, what we're saying is that the ability was not really required to perform your job as a tank. So then, its removal has no impact on pt tanks.

 

I've played all three specs in raids, and unload has never been an essential ability to pts. In every scenario described, it's used pretty much for fun, which is why from a practical standpoint, it doesn't really matter that the ability is no longer with us. The only argument for it to be returned is it being fun, which I don't believe is a very good point, and unlikely to be taken seriously by the BW team.

[HaemmernZeit]

Essentially then, what we're saying is that the ability was not really required to perform your job as a tank. So then, its removal has no impact on pt tanks.

 

I've played all three specs in raids, and unload has never been an essential ability to pts. In every scenario described, it's used pretty much for fun, which is why from a practical standpoint, it doesn't really matter that the ability is no longer with us. The only argument for it to be returned is it being fun, which I don't believe is a very good point, and unlikely to be taken seriously by the BW team.

 

You didn't even read what I wrote. I'm done arguing with you, you don't know what you're talking about.

[BishopSMASH]

You didn't even read what I wrote. I'm done arguing with you, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

The line about tanking being flame burst x1000 came across as you stating that maintaining threat is relatively easy, after the opener. You also agree that it shouldn't have been used in the opener. Therefore I summarized it as not really being essential to tanking, which it isn't. I've stated numerous times that unload was not vital to tanking, and heat was never a problem to begin with, and if it was you were doing it wrong. Usually I'd use TSO with DfA, as its a far better ability to generate threat with, being stronger and an aoe, than unload. So in the few situations where either DfA is on cd, or I shouldn't use an aoe, sure I could use unload with TSO to vent some heat. But that has NEVER been needed for me. Energy management is a joke on a pt tank if you're being attacked. Which brings me back to the point that it's always been such a situational ability that its removal is not a problem. So yeah, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

 

In any case you're right, this has begun to feel repetitive. I'll continue to progression tank, with unload's removal having absolutely NO effect on how I'll continue to do my job right. The rest of you who are going to continue to cry about having an ability back because it was fun, keep at it. I'm sure it'll work out.

Edited March 20, 2015 by BishopSMASH

[Gameverseman]

Nothing that anyone has said has justified Full Auto/Unload being taken away. On one hand you have people claiming that the ability was useless anyways so it doesn't matter. Well if it's useless than no further action was required so, again, why take it away? On the other hand you have people saying it's "over-powered". Assuming that's correct than it would be necessary for 1 of two things to happen... either nerf the ability OR disable the ability in the circumstances where it is "over-powered". So, again, why take the ability away? As for the rest of you *cough* elitists *cough*, where's the logic in dictating how (or how not) to use the ability if the ability is no longer usable?

[theJudeAbides]

Yeah, I see a lot of people saying the reason it was taken away is because of end-game Raiding/ PVP and it's lack of usefulness there. Most say it was useless for raiding and OP for PVP.

 

But here's the thing, everybody hasn't necessarily leveled up and even those who have aren't necessarily into the hardcore raiding/PVPing. Some of us like to play the game for, you know, fun. Some of use just like to run around with out blaster pistols going pew pew pew. Also, some of use actually like being able to see the color of our color crystal in action. Quick shots... ok, but it's not very powerful. Heat Blast is over to fast and easy to miss. Everything else comes from your offhand, and isn't even colorized for your offhand weapon.

 

How come the flames coming out of our flamethrower aren't colorized, then? Think about how cool that would be to colorize your flames. I bet 99% of the people here would quit ************ if that was a thing.

 

But it's not, and I doubt BioWare's going to prioritize that any time soon. So how about this instead? Instead of just outright removing the ability, how about you tweak it so that it's better/more balanced. Here's some ideas:

- Reduce the damage it does (since it's so OP).

- Increase it's cooldown (take it off the GC).

- Allow us to use it while moving, keeping the tanks mobile (Or perhaps add a utility that allows us to use it while moving).

 

There's plenty of things they could have done to balance it, but instead they just took the lazy route and removed it. I'm not going to quit over it, but like most here, I'm quite peeved about it. And having elitists say "oh, you shouldn't be using that anyways" just make me want to use it all the more. I have a job. I play this game to have fun. If you don't, then I feel sorry for you.

[Gameverseman]

Yeah, I see a lot of people saying the reason it was taken away is because of end-game Raiding/ PVP and it's lack of usefulness there. Most say it was useless for raiding and OP for PVP.

 

But here's the thing, everybody hasn't necessarily leveled up and even those who have aren't necessarily into the hardcore raiding/PVPing. Some of us like to play the game for, you know, fun. Some of use just like to run around with out blaster pistols going pew pew pew. Also, some of use actually like being able to see the color of our color crystal in action. Quick shots... ok, but it's not very powerful. Heat Blast is over to fast and easy to miss. Everything else comes from your offhand, and isn't even colorized for your offhand weapon.

 

How come the flames coming out of our flamethrower aren't colorized, then? Think about how cool that would be to colorize your flames. I bet 99% of the people here would quit ************ if that was a thing.

 

But it's not, and I doubt BioWare's going to prioritize that any time soon. So how about this instead? Instead of just outright removing the ability, how about you tweak it so that it's better/more balanced. Here's some ideas:

- Reduce the damage it does (since it's so OP).

- Increase it's cooldown (take it off the GC).

- Allow us to use it while moving, keeping the tanks mobile (Or perhaps add a utility that allows us to use it while moving).

 

There's plenty of things they could have done to balance it, but instead they just took the lazy route and removed it. I'm not going to quit over it, but like most here, I'm quite peeved about it. And having elitists say "oh, you shouldn't be using that anyways" just make me want to use it all the more. I have a job. I play this game to have fun. If you don't, then I feel sorry for you.

 

Here Here! QFT

[eartharioch]

Next point if we as a player base allow skills to be removed without a really good reason sooner or later they will remove a skill you do care about and you will have no ground to stand on because you allowed it in the past.

 

I think we're a bit past this point...Unload wasn't even a Legacy Ability.

[eartharioch]

How about, vanguards and powertechs gain storm and jet charge, lose the pistol, gain a techblade or vibroblade and gain a wristblaster.

 

Lol, might as well let my operative use a blaster pistol like *every other medium armor dps/heal tech companion* while we're at it.

[-Healius-]

People saying "give jet charge to all PT specs again" is just stupid, think of the OP huttball matches we will see.... its bad enough with the tanks.

[GabDube]

IMO, powertechs and vanguards should be mid-range classes, using their pistols and carbines as mid-range weapons. There are already melee tank disciplines, melee DPS disciplines and ranged DPS disciplines, why not ranged/mid-range tanks? They'd be a balance between melee classes at 4m and ranged at 30m.

 

They could still keep a few 4m abilities like rocket punch/stock strike, but I see some advantage in being a kiting class focusing on 10m abilities. Hell, those melee abilities could even be made into mid-range 10m abilities if they were altered to be a charge-then-hop back at 10m from the target after use.

 

Otherwise, why bring a gun to a glowbat fight if you'll be up in people's faces all the time anyway?

[Deija]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tfranco View Post

I'm glad this happened. Mainly for one reason: hopefully new players will realise that PT is not ranged dps. It happens all the time, get into a kdy and a power tech is spamming missile blast and unload. Not even using their abilities given To them from spec (like flaming fist, magnetic blast, etc...). Hopefully they will realize now that they need to be in melee range.

 

Now if they can just do the same for operatives. Like maybe tage snipe away so they can start a actually playing in melee range too.

 

Let the player to play how he wants. This is a game not a job. If you took in your flashpoint group one Powertech / vanguard and you think thats he isnt making the things well, is your call dont get him the next time. Easy way.

 

Make a class only melee or only ranged, isn't funny. Is a unnecessary limitation.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I have enjoyed the animations from an RP perspective and the filler perspective as a tank for years, I always juggled ranged [10-30m] and melee [0-10m] range swaps sparingly and did not pepper bosses from range, nor did I sit up the arse of the primary target(s) either.

 

Removing this ability neither teaches a lesson, nor improves the game and therefore should not have happened.

 

Frankly after the sniper/Gunslinger class was restructured, abilities removed and given to only one tree I was annoyed, but got over it.... now with this... WHY BOTHER with all the cartel crap, the crystals, the dye packs, why bother IF the abilities and aesthetics are REMOVED from our gameplay... good rotation or bad rotation. Give the player the choice to play their way, seeing as they pay (one way or another) for the privilege.

 

I agree with another post in the forum. Lets remove the melee or close range items from the Mercenary toolkit, seeing as they are "ranged".... No you say? then WHY remove ranged from OUR toolbox? It is a valid tool and it was ours.

Forgive the devs because they don't know what they are doing sometimes...

Yeah unload was a nice rage filler for a great midrange dps class. Okay thanks for removing the last range skill that used the mainhand (autoshots excluded) thats fine now he is like a lightsaber swinging Sage/Sorc therefore I want to use my lightsaber with the pt. Btw. its pretty unfair that mercs still have melee atacks like a flamethrower please remove that too

 

Devs, I hope you are reviewing these forums... please do not reduce the rotations/options/skills any further, or you will make the same mistake Blizzard did by reducing immersion and making the game a 4 main-hotkey child fest arcade game. As much of a Star Wars fan as I am... You will lose me. Tread Carefully here!

[RicoZaid]

It was a fun power, hate to see it go even though it was not 'optimal'

[BetterThanLife]

You shouldn't be using unload to begin with.

So what single target ranged attack should a Ranged tank be using?

 

Is there another class without a single target channeled attack?

[SkepticShockwave]

To make it fair, take away Mercs flamethrower. Ranged dps don't need it anyway.

[GhOsTPrOz]

So what single target ranged attack should a Ranged tank be using?

 

Is there another class without a single target channeled attack?

 

Vanguards are not, and never have been a ranged tank. People complain (Usually guardians and sents) That "Vanguards are OP because they are mid range" how are we mid range? Sure they have 3 abilities that can be used from 30 meters and 1 from 10 but if you expect to do any big damage as dos or keep any kind of threat as a tank, you best be at 4 meters. If you absolutely have to be far away...like torque you have sticky grenade, HiB and hammer shot

[wadecounty]

Vanguards are not, and never have been a ranged tank. People complain (Usually guardians and sents) That "Vanguards are OP because they are mid range" how are we mid range? Sure they have 3 abilities that can be used from 30 meters and 1 from 10 but if you expect to do any big damage as dos or keep any kind of threat as a tank, you best be at 4 meters. If you absolutely have to be far away...like torque you have sticky grenade, HiB and hammer shot

Well to be fair, the majority of a Vanguard tank rotation is 10 meter + attacks (15 if you spec'd for it), the only thing you have to be 4 meters for is Stockstrike. Compared to a Guardian, who only has 2 10 meter attacks (1 has an execute requirement) available every 12 seconds, and 1 30 meter attack every 30 seconds that even has a minimum range restriction on it. Especially in PvP, with targets moving around, its far easier to put out damage as a VG tank than a Guardian.

 

So no, you're not tanking from 10 meters ideally. But the point is you could, and you can't even consider something like that as a Guardian. Even a Shadow has far more 10 meter abilities in their rotation.

[GhOsTPrOz]

Well to be fair, the majority of a Vanguard tank rotation is 10 meter + attacks (15 if you spec'd for it), the only thing you have to be 4 meters for is Stockstrike. Compared to a Guardian, who only has 2 10 meter attacks (1 has an execute requirement) available every 12 seconds, and 1 30 meter attack every 30 seconds that even has a minimum range restriction on it. Especially in PvP, with targets moving around, its far easier to put out damage as a VG tank than a Guardian.

 

So no, you're not tanking from 10 meters ideally. But the point is you could, and you can't even consider something like that as a Guardian. Even a Shadow has far more 10 meter abilities in their rotation.

 

You forget about ion storm, and explosive surge, and energy blast, also what fool specs for 15m as a tank...far better tank utilities to take then that.

[wadecounty]

You forget about ion storm, and explosive surge, and energy blast, also what fool specs for 15m as a tank...far better tank utilities to take then that.

 

Ion Storm = 10 meters, Explosive Surge = 5 meter radius (can be spec'd to 7m), also not part of rotation unless AOE, and Energy Blast = 10 meters. As for speccing for extra range, there aren't tons of utilities better than that, its a perfectly valid thing to grab especially in PvP but even in PvE, its not like the stuff you'd miss out on is game breaking.

 

Vent Heat when stunned, pointless as tank, 15% movement, pointless as tank (have charge and speed boost when attacked after charge along with HO), Snare on Flame Burst/Flame Sweep only for PvP, HO CD reduction only for PvP*, Flame Sweep damage only for PvE. So by my count, that's only 2 must haves for PvP, 1 must have for PvE, and the only other utilities are the Close and Personal damage thing (nice but only a minor damage boost, good on hm ops to squeeze out extra damage, pvp negligible difference) and the range on Flame Burst/Flame Sweep. If you spec differently that's cool, I'd be interested to hear arguments why there's other things more worth taking, but that's my view on the first tier.

 

*note on HO cd reduction, for certain fights in HM Ops the cd reduction is worth it specifically because of timers on boss fight abilities, that's very fight specific though. Mostly Master/Blaster and Revan, I believe.

Edited May 29, 2015 by wadecounty