>3 days later

It's a bit early to tell, but what do you reckon the gap between arsenal and either jugg spec in single target situations should be? As a side note, the operative doesn't sound like he was very good at his class either with that big of a disparity. We're also missing the specs of both the jugg and op, but even comparing op's lowest to jugg's highest (concealment to rage) is about a 3k disparity, assuming equal gear and skill. If you compare lethality to vengeance, the gap is essentially less than 2k. So with the gear difference, sounds like the operative could use some work. If we're talking any situation where the jugg is hitting more than one target with slam, then I know you're not surprised by the gap between you two.

Gear is hardly the main interest that NiM raiders have in the long-term, I agree. For myself and my guys, this last tier we truly just raided for the joy of the game. After developing and perfecting our strats for Dxun and Gods timers, we still ran them week in and week out. This could be due to us role swapping, getting more of our friends their achievements, selling the achievements to those who needed it, farming titles on alts, etc. All the raids prior to Gods, like DF and DP, were pretty much only run if we could do them on off-roles, for sales, or out of boredom, but we still enjoyed them for what they were. We always see old players come back when new operations are announced, but funny enough, we find they usually aren't as good as they/we thought they were, so they get on teams that can't clear anything, and thus quit out of frustration or boredom. A lot of the people who complained about Dxun in our community were usually people who didn't really understand the Operation in depth, and people don't like doing things they're not good at. I'll share with you something you may find interesting. Several of my friends and co-raiders are not playing right now. Lost Ark, for instance, took a lot of their attention, and coupled with an expansion that involved a boring gearing system and no new operations, just fueled that disinterest. We're all waiting for R-4, but we also don't care to gear up right now in preparation when we can (hopefully) just gear directly from R-4 drops, instead of the convoluted system in place now. All that to say, the raiding community is nowhere near thrilled with this gearing system, and it is not as tailored to our preferences as people in this thread seem to think it is.

As far as I'm concerned, that isn't a problem. Obviously, I'm not in charge of game design, and as I said in a post several pages back, I'm sure that giving people more methods to gear can't hurt in terms of revenue and player satisfaction. But from my point of view of being a NiM raider for pretty much my entire tenure in game, people not having access to gear they don't need through their preferred solo/casual content is a good thing. If you want something like top tier gear, you should have to do something a bit more challenging than solo content. Brings more people to raiding which means more operations for us, or at least that's the ideal. I'm sure my perspective will upset many who fall into that demographic. It's just my point of view, and if it does upset you, be glad I'm not the one making these design decisions. I also feel this debate has run its course, and I don't really have anything new to say after this post.

Where else do you "continue to see" that argument besides from me? And to that end, I'd point you to my response to you on page 21, specifically the first paragraph. I'm not really arguing that it should be that way. Is it my preference? Yes. But I'm not arrogant enough to think it's my way or the highway, and I'm not pursuing that line of reasoning.

You mean the thread from 2020 that you necro'd?

Your inferences are not really clear, at least to me. People who enjoyed the 6.0 gearing system are not mutually exclusive from any other kind of player. Raiders, soloers, casual players, and so on, all had their gripes and their praises for the system. Personally, I enjoyed 6.0's system as it gave me a ton of different sets to play around with in raids, as well as the tactical system being new. I know many raiders who also enjoyed 6.0's system. How are solo and casual players punished now, but weren't in 6.0, by the gearing system?

Ultimately, I couldn't care less about how people got whatever gear they wanted if I was simply able to gear the way I used to. So sure, if people want to gear through GSF or Flashpoints, let them. But if I'd rather get a group of 8 people and blitz through some HMs, get a specific unassembled piece from each boss and redeem each one so that we could get back to doing NiMs, I'd be content. I can debate the semantics of who should have access to what, but if we take it from a "life-of-the-game" perspective, then yeah, giving people the option to get the gear they want can't hurt - especially with the playerbase now vs then. The commendation system was also not a bad halfway point if all people cared about was the iLvl. You could get unoptimized, no set bonus gear from just doing Flashpoints or w/e, but the best of the best came from the hardest content. Regardless, I truly could not be more disgusted than I am with the thought of gearing through GSF, world bosses, and a "weekly" hardmode since the others either don't work or aren't as viable, among other means, week in and week out.

I'm well aware of why people who don't do the hardest content in the game want the best gear available. Those who want to play an MMO by themselves through and through feel they should have top tier gear so they can do their dailies faster, or it gives them a little more leeway to just use whatever abilities they want with reckless abandon. It does not change the fact that it is not needed for them to have it to accomplish their goal of dailies or SM FPs or whatever. But they wanted it, and so now we have this mess of people afk'ing in GSF, farming one specific boss over and over again, etc - everything ol Keith here seems to think they changed from 6.0. I get your point of view, but frankly I will not concede my own standpoint that the system was at its best when you got the appropriate gear from doing each activity. If you wanted expertise gear, you had to pvp. If you wanted to get gear for Hard Mode, you did Story Mode first. From Hard Mode, you got gear that prepared you for Nightmare. From Nightmare, you got gear that made Nightmare slightly easier. Anyone not doing those activities did not need that gear to do what they wanted to do, and so they did not receive that gear and instead got what was appropriate to the level of effort they put into their activity of choice. If I want to go smash some mobs in Section X by myself, I should not be rewarded in the same way as someone who assembled 8 people to do a Nightmare Op.

This isn't what we wanted. We want to able to get gear directly from operations, like how it used to be. We want to kill a boss and receive a piece of gear relative to the mode we're doing. Those of us who do NiM should be rewarded with NiM-only gear. We don't want to be doing GSF and World Bosses and Flashpoints for gear. If you think we're the ones shaping the game you're sorely mistaken. The people who do only solo and daily content who feel they should have access to gear they don't need have created this mess of a system.

What the hell are y'all talking about

I sure hope so. I've never cancelled my sub out of disgust before this tier. Following every xpac and its inevitable complaints, it's always a question of "is it just not fully understanding and appreciating the change, or are the changes just outright bad?" Most of the time, I attribute it to people not fully understanding how the new system works, or whatever. Not this time. This has been a disaster, and both sides of the table know it. Unfortunately, until the revenues reflect that belief, I fear no real change will be made, or at least not in any acceptable amount of time. I hope the people who genuinely dislike this dumpster fire don't stop after venting their feelings, and realize that in all likelihood their furiously-typed post will have little to no impact on the game's direction. I hope for the best for this game, but I'm truly pessimistic at this time. Gotta speak the language of dollars to get the point across.

Howdy! PM Gabe#4842 on Discord for details. We can get you hooked up.

Objectively, Powertech. Personally, Juggernaut

There's a set bonus, the Fulminating Defense set, that gives Threatening Scream an additional charge.

With the preface of "NiM raiding perspective," it should be understood that it is obligatory to start with 30 stacks because you're obligated to not sandbag in that environment. I'm not gonna discuss how starting with 30 stacks pre-built vs using Frenzy to have 30 stacks to start works in raids. You should already know exactly why "precasting" Frenzy instead of building beforehand is bad if you're gonna try to advocate for an objectively pointless change. To work around this change, I can just make sure we chain pull trash, then the boss. I don't have the utility, but I do have 30 stacks. That's not an exploit. Building stacks before a boss fight is not an exploit, with or without the utility, as there are multiple ways to do it. I appreciate playing Devil's Advocate, but this is simply just an outdated class design. The circle that we're going in with this utility just needs to end, and the stack building should be a passive. There's no reason to tie it to such a useless utility when other similar class mechanics are not so restricted.

Y'all just have no interest in getting this right, do you? "All active stacks of Fury are lost when a Sith Marauder modifies their utility choices." Let's make the absolute idiocy of this God-forsaken class mechanic perfectly clear, shall we? And we'll do it from a NiM raiding perspective. Before disciplines, Brooding was Carnage only. Clearly, you decided to change it to a general utility because you felt that starting with 30 stacks of Fury was something all specs of the Marauder should have access to. So, the last time you made a change that was a step in the right direction was 2014. Bravo. This still fell short of the mark. Brooding is a utility that really has no place in a fight. The reduced cooldown on Intimidating Roar isn't nearly as useful for Marauders as it is for Juggernauts (tanks, at that), and the utility to which it itself is tied is far worse. Obviously, unless you plan on dying, rezzing, and spending several seconds building 30 stacks, you get zero use out of that portion of the utility the instant combat starts. I sincerely hope this is a newsflash to you. Warriors are the sole basic class that don't passively start a fight with 100% resource allotment. 0 Heat, 100% Force, 100% Energy, and 0 Rage. One of these things is not like the other. Is this the problem? No. Rage is an easy mechanic and the rotations for both Advanced Classes cover this deficit perfectly. So, we can take that out of the equation and put Juggernauts off the table entirely. Adding Fury into the mix, Marauders are the one class that has to actively go out of their way to spec into something that allows them to be prepped as much as possible for a fight. Clearly, you don't have an issue with Marauders starting a fight with 30 stacks of Fury, because if you did, the utility wouldn't exist. What in the ever-loving hell are you trying to accomplish? Why do AP Powertechs get to passively build stacks with their class regen? Why do Mercenaries have the option to click an ability 10 times while running to a boss in order to start a fight fully prepared? Taking the utility, even in the same way Marauders use it, is a joke because it's totally unnecessary for Mercenaries. The only right answer to this is to make the Fury generation a passive Marauder ability, and to either leave Brooding as only reducing Roar's cooldown, or to give it an entire overhaul. This should've been done ages ago, but to be frank, those of us who play Marauder have put up with the relative inconvenience of this utility in its current form because we knew getting you to change it for the better would be nigh-impossible, and we just dealt with it. Of course, now that you've gone and screwed it up further, something needs to be said. 6.0 has done a lot of things to encourage bad game-play, and this move is just par for the course. You'll be forcing Marauders to gimp themselves either by taking a worthless utility or by starting a fight with 0 Fury. If you are insistent on making this nonsensical change, then I would at least plead you make Brooding worth it. Tweak it to reduce the cooldown of Frenzy by either 15 or 30 seconds, similar to set bonuses in the past. Something like that. But really and truly, I'd just like to see some reasonable consistency in class design.

First and foremost, I'd like to see Oil Fire fixed. This is ridiculous. It's an easy fix. As for new tacticals, I feel something like Hord Makashi's Strike (HMS) would be solid. A correctly played Jugg maximizing DR with that tactical can and will have a permanent 8% DR increase to their resting DR at the cost of a little DPS and one GCD without the retaliate buff per Crushing Blow CD. The obvious PT adjustment is something with either Heat Screen or Shield Enhancers, with my lean being towards the latter. Given how Heat Blast already kinda functions like Retaliation with Hord Makashi, I don't think we should be looking at Heat Screen. That in mind, I'm thinking something like "Firestorm at 3 stacks of Shield Enhancers will consume Shield Enhancers and give either a 5% DR buff or a 10% Shield buff for 10-15 seconds" would be appropriate. I favor 10 seconds to offset the lack of a downside comparable to the loss of on-CD Retaliate. If it isn't in the form of a DPS loss, it should be in the form of <100% uptime, unlike Hord Makashi's DR. If we go with 15 seconds, that also means ~100% uptime and there should be some other restriction or the restriction removed from HMS. This would give PT's a solid single target fight tactical that wouldn't outdo Oil Fire on AoE fights. It might also render Thermal Screen obsolete, but as it stands, Thermal Screen is only used for lack of a better alternative. Any fight I run Right Price on I also tend to use Superheated Fuel to maximize DPS. I also like the idea of transferring Power Yield, and more importantly EP, to a guarded target, though the next obvious question is do we say screw it and allow Juggs to transfer Reflect to their guarded target too. Finally, as much of a meme as it is, we gotta do something about Translocate. I propose making Hotswap turn Translocate into either an Extricate or an Intercede type ability, but not both. Primarily, this would make it an instant ability. Next, if we make it like Intercede, reduce the DR it gives by 15/20%, add a threat dump, and call it a day. If we make it like Extricate, turn it into a threat dump+reduce the DR by 10%. It's time to give PTs tanks something specific that only they can use to help a raid member. Just came up with this on the spot, so feel free to take this ball and run it further/ in another direction or point out the potential pitfalls of these.

Both classes are very good DPS. Can't speak on performance in ranked, but I am speaking on every aspect of PvE. Become proficient with both. This is made easier by being able to share everything but the offhand between the Warrior classes. You'll learn where each one's strengths lie and the ability to play both will do you a lot of good.

The second rampaging bull spawn on Red is inconsistent with its visibility. I'd say one third of the time I can't see the honking brute, sometimes for a few seconds, other times at all. This is very unfortunate and I can't believe I have to deal with bugs on the test server (/s ) Overall though, a pretty good introductory boss I'd say. *EDIT* In addition to the second bull, the third is also inconsistent with appearing or not.

Hello, I've heard from others that Emergency Power (PT Tank uber Set Bonus) used to be sold by the vendors prior to the most recent iteration of the PTS, but that is no longer the case. I'd like to request that it be returned to the vendors so that I can adequately assess its place in Dxun MM, as my attempts to acquire the set on the Live server have yielded only 2 pieces thus far. Also I want to be able to pop something and safely tab out while I change my background music. If the first reason alone doesn't compel you, this definitely should. (Or if I'm missing where its sold please point me in the right direction.) Thanks ))))))

My powertech, and only my powertech, has had this issue for almost two years now. Started sometime in 2018. Left the game last July, just came back, and it's been a running issue every time I've logged into him/phased in somewhere.

Knew I wasn't tripping. It's been incredibly obnoxious dealing with charge still being on CD in repeatable situations where it should be off CD.

/signed

I don’t disagree with anything you said here, because that’s rather the point that started this discussion - how do our combat abilities serve to advance objectives (in this case score the huttball) outside of their intended use. It should be common knowledge that certain abilities can be used situationally and outside of their intended, main purpose. That’s why I find a flaw in stating “force speed and force charge are exactly the same”. They’re not. I listed several scenarios where charge isn’t used as a gap closer necessarily, but rather to advance the agenda of scoring (I may charge someone to get in range of a teammate to intercede to, not to start whacking the enemy in melee range.) The idea that force speed can do everything a jugg can do with charge is just not true. Let me put it this way: countless times, I’ve done a 6 second combo where I charge someone on an upper platform, force push them towards the goal, charge them again, and mad dash to score. It’s beautiful. In those same 6 seconds on a sorcerer, I can force speed ~30m closer to the goal and then... scratch and claw my way to score until the CD is up. In the same sense, there are times where my jugg can’t do anything like that because the enemy team is smart and doesn’t let me charge to them, so force speed serves a better purpose. That’s why I’m not entirely dismissive of the point that whoever it was said, wherein he felt charge was more advantageous than speed, which I agree with to an extent here. And just by the by, in your predation example I’d like to point out that I’ve had several marauders try that on my sniper, and I take great amusement from leg shotting or flashbanging a freshly predationized mara from 30m away and either watching them break it and waste an ability or agonize over the wasted pred . Usually the more successful marauders circumvent that with Force Camo as their main gap closer, with pred being used after a cover pulse or leg shot+covered escape combo.