Saber Reflect & Floor Vent

[TACeMossie]

You must have excellent healers. :-)

 

In any case, what composition exactly? What allocation of DPS do you use on Torque? For example, here's a representative group from my guild (coincidentally all ranged, but you could adapt the same DPS allocations to a melee heavy group)…

 

Composition is a Lightning Sorc, an IO Merc, and Arsenal Merc and a Marksmanship Sniper. IO Merc tunnels the boss. Arsenal Merc tunnels and switches off for the laser/fire adds, using AoE as much as possible. Lightning Sorc handles back two turrets on each side; Marksmanship Sniper handles front two turrets on each side. Boss is held on the opposite side of the room from the repair. Turret killing is conservative in that we will kill one side and then hold off on killing the other side if the boss is about to smash (so we maximize AoE splash on the boss). Sniper and Sorc both push the boss exclusively when not on turrets. Healers get the first two droids. Generally only two more droids are needed, though three isn't uncommon. Around 20%, we finish the turrets we're currently on and straight-up tunnel the boss down to 0. Arsenal Merc switches off to kill laser adds during burn phase and that's it. No more droids.

 

If you have melee, it's good to have them be the ones tunneling. If you have two melee, the one with better target swapping can take care of the laser/fire droids. Turrets basically need to be killed by ranged, so the point at which this strategy breaks down wholesale is if your ranged are both playing IO and don't know how to play Arsenal (another example would be two Engineering Snipers who can't play Marksmanship). I guess just lacking spammable AoE would probably do it in nearly completely. Sweeping Blasters alone probably isn't enough to push enough AoE on the turrets.

 

So I'm just curious as to exactly what you're doing with your DPS and where things are leaking out. Again, no criticism, just trying to learn from the issues you've seen.

 

Note you can beat enrage with a slightly different strat.

 

e.g. my guild's first kill had 2 Plasmatech Vanguards (RIP in peace), a TK Sage, a Sharpshooter Slinger, and a guardian tank who couldn't saber reflect the damage properly ever (Other tank is vanguard).

 

Basically, the boss would constantly get placed on top of the adds so they could easily be cleaved by Pulse Cannon + TK Waves. we set up starparse to tell us when vents are coming so we don't screw up and get caught channeling when we need to move. Killed the boss with 3 seconds to spare before enrage.

Edited March 4, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Darkelefantos]

I wouldn't mind if they instead gave me the ability to reflect Blaster's attacks, who CLEARLY SHOOTS FRIGGIN BLASTERS. Ugh. Just silly. Edited March 3, 2015 by Darkelefantos

[justinplainview]

I don't understand why juggs think that saber reflect should do uncapped damage to the boss. It's ridiculous that it worked in the first place, and I'm glad that it's being fixed. 600k damage in one fight just from hitting a DCD? 6k DPS without any 198 gear? A tank in full tank gear doing 4k+ just from saber reflect? Real talk? In what way do you think you should be able to do that? I will never understand some of the complaints in this game. Jugg DPS WITHOUT cheesing reflect on floor vents can do 5k with good gear, which is awesome damage. Jugg Tanks without reflecting floor vents do very similar damage to the other two tank classes.

 

There's not a single argument to be made for this tuning fix on Torque being a bad thing.

Edited March 3, 2015 by justinplainview

[darth_psychose]

even as a jugg/guardian dps this things had to be fixed ( http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/3758/30 ) yeah i was happy when i did it =) but it was totaly broken. The next step is to reach guardian's reflect cap to jugg's one or put jugg's cap to guardian's one. Cuz yeah jugg cap is 159xx whereas guardian is 5573. And there are so many aoe that put a broken dps when reflect .. maybe BW gonna find them

[Joran-Koon]

I don't understand why juggs think that saber reflect should do uncapped damage to the boss. It's ridiculous that it worked in the first place, and I'm glad that it's being fixed. 600k damage in one fight just from hitting a DCD? 6k DPS without any 198 gear? A tank in full tank gear doing 4k+ just from saber reflect? Real talk? In what way do you think you should be able to do that? I will never understand some of the complaints in this game. Jugg DPS WITHOUT cheesing reflect on floor vents can do 5k with good gear, which is awesome damage. Jugg Tanks without reflecting floor vents do very similar damage to the other two tank classes.

 

There's not a single argument to be made for this tuning fix on Torque being a bad thing.

Just a grave marker. rip

[OMGITSJAD]

I don't understand why juggs think that saber reflect should do uncapped damage to the boss. It's ridiculous that it worked in the first place, and I'm glad that it's being fixed. 600k damage in one fight just from hitting a DCD? 6k DPS without any 198 gear? A tank in full tank gear doing 4k+ just from saber reflect? Real talk? In what way do you think you should be able to do that? I will never understand some of the complaints in this game. Jugg DPS WITHOUT cheesing reflect on floor vents can do 5k with good gear, which is awesome damage. Jugg Tanks without reflecting floor vents do very similar damage to the other two tank classes.

 

There's not a single argument to be made for this tuning fix on Torque being a bad thing.

 

It's ridiculous, but it's fun, and a good advantage for having a Jugg tank over a PT tank. Not good enough reason to not be nerfed, I know, but just my 2 cents. I think they should have released a fix for the repair droids bugging out additionally and I wouldn't care as much. It's basically the only hard part of the fight if your team is on point.

Edited March 4, 2015 by OMGITSJAD

[FerkWork]

This is was necessary and obviously coming to prevent one class having a clear superiority in a fight and in doing so trivializing the content. Same with Revan and Hyrdaulic overdrives. One of these two is bad enough by itself but both is clearly ridiculous. I wonder if they will now tinker with Lurker where PTs certain advantages with Oil Slick/Riot Gas on Rage Storm and Sonic rebound on cross which in itself negates certain mechanics (I don't know if they work on HM). To me no class should have a clear superiority in a fight or trivialize content. Edited March 4, 2015 by FerkWork

[justinplainview]

This is was necessary and obviously coming to prevent one class having a clear superiority in a fight and in doing so trivializing the content. Same with Revan and Hyrdaulic overdrives. One of these two is bad enough by itself but both is clearly ridiculous. I wonder if they will now tinker with Lurker where PTs certain advantages with Oil Slick/Riot Gas on Rage Storm and Sonic rebound on cross which in itself negates certain mechanics (I don't know if they work on HM). To me no class should have a clear superiority in a fight or trivialize content.

 

LOL Hydraulics on Revan equates to 5-7 GCDS of damage for the entire third floor. Saber Reflects on Floor Vents equates to 600k damage in a similar time frame. They are not in any way equitable. Additionally, yes, Underlurker should absolutely not have Sonic Rebound trivialize cross mechanic. If you're using Oil Slick on Rage Storm, or if you need to use it on Rage Storm to kill the boss, then you have bigger problems.

 

Also, I'm sick of the stupid "PT Tanks are the best" line of thinking. It's lazy. PT tanks, outside of that 5-7 GCDs we talked about are the worst tanks for the damage profile of Revan. Juggs and Sins are better TANKS for the fight. Sins and Juggs are better on Master Blaster. Sins and Juggs are better TANKS for Coratanni. PTs are gods on: Revanite Commanders, Underlurker, Sword Squadron. Sins are god on: Bulo, Blaster Master, Coratanni, and great for Revan. Juggs: Sword Squadron, Underlurker, Blaster Master, Torque (even after the changes I'd rather have a jugg)

 

This change does not in any way wildly swing balance away from juggs. I know many tanks that are top tier that will still play their Jugg over anything else.

 

I've seen these wild twitch streams where guilds think that they are somehow using a non-optimal tank comp on Blaster Master if they don't use PTs or Vanguards. True story: from a mitigation standpoint, PTs are HORRIBLE on Blaster Master HM. Juggs are better, and Sins completely trivialize the fight.

 

/endrant

[Pfomo]

Goes to show how Bioware is out of touch with its priorities and its customer base. I love this game and I do not roll a Jugg as a main.... but you will go in change a dps advantage a melee class has in a fight typically that sucks for melee with a genre of bosses that also suck as far as melee classes go and you will go in there spend your time changing that ,but won't spend time fixing your known bugs since 3.0 launched on Underlurker, Master, Revan, and Cortanni?.... lets face it engineering at its lowest, resources poorly managed and prioritized quite sad you fix something that doesn't affect the players negative ,but won't spend time fixing the issues which will and does effect the community negatively.... smart choice.

[FerkWork]

LOL Hydraulics on Revan equates to 5-7 GCDS of damage for the entire third floor. Saber Reflects on Floor Vents equates to 600k damage in a similar time frame. They are not in any way equitable. Additionally, yes, Underlurker should absolutely not have Sonic Rebound trivialize cross mechanic. If you're using Oil Slick on Rage Storm, or if you need to use it on Rage Storm to kill the boss, then you have bigger problems.

 

Also, I'm sick of the stupid "PT Tanks are the best" line of thinking. It's lazy. PT tanks, outside of that 5-7 GCDs we talked about are the worst tanks for the damage profile of Revan. Juggs and Sins are better TANKS for the fight. Sins and Juggs are better on Master Blaster. Sins and Juggs are better TANKS for Coratanni. PTs are gods on: Revanite Commanders, Underlurker, Sword Squadron. Sins are god on: Bulo, Blaster Master, Coratanni, and great for Revan. Juggs: Sword Squadron, Underlurker, Blaster Master, Torque (even after the changes I'd rather have a jugg)

 

This change does not in any way wildly swing balance away from juggs. I know many tanks that are top tier that will still play their Jugg over anything else.

 

I've seen these wild twitch streams where guilds think that they are somehow using a non-optimal tank comp on Blaster Master if they don't use PTs or Vanguards. True story: from a mitigation standpoint, PTs are HORRIBLE on Blaster Master HM. Juggs are better, and Sins completely trivialize the fight.

 

/endrant

 

I never said PT tanks are the best or ever claim that (I main a PT tank). Yes 6-7 GCDs were a way smaller issue than floor vent reflect. And I apologize if you take offense for using that as example but using an example that highlight the principIe, I could find several other ones as well.But to me it doesn't matter if one is bigger than the other, it is still having unintended effect of making certain classes have a distinct "negating mechanic abilities" no matter if one is not as big as the other. 6-7 GCDs may be small but it's 6-7 other classes did not have which again is my point (Which it was why it was patched) even if PTs are bad for the fight. Same as oil slick giving more uptime on the boss that isn't available for others. IMHO, It's the principle of classes having a ability that negates mechanics no matter how trivial which I dislike. Yes certain classes would always be better in fights but it should not overshadow other comps or negate any mechanic.

Edited March 4, 2015 by FerkWork

[Vossi-san]

Mimimimimi Drama baby Drama...

[Vaidinah]

I don't get this uproar over Saber Reflect being fixed on this fight since it was ridiculously overpowered on that fight. I do understand that people are annoyed that Bioware fixes really minor issues like this over much bigger problems in the game. However, those people just don't understand that's not a problem with the wrong priorities. Some bugs/problems are just a lot easier to fix so they get resolved first if they can be done in a short amount of time + manpower and/or with a relatively low chance at introducing new bugs (a general concern in programming) even with massive issues still around.

 

LOL Hydraulics on Revan equates to 5-7 GCDS of damage for the entire third floor. Saber Reflects on Floor Vents equates to 600k damage in a similar time frame. They are not in any way equitable. Additionally, yes, Underlurker should absolutely not have Sonic Rebound trivialize cross mechanic. If you're using Oil Slick on Rage Storm, or if you need to use it on Rage Storm to kill the boss, then you have bigger problems.

 

Also, I'm sick of the stupid "PT Tanks are the best" line of thinking. It's lazy. PT tanks, outside of that 5-7 GCDs we talked about are the worst tanks for the damage profile of Revan. Juggs and Sins are better TANKS for the fight. Sins and Juggs are better on Master Blaster. Sins and Juggs are better TANKS for Coratanni. PTs are gods on: Revanite Commanders, Underlurker, Sword Squadron. Sins are god on: Bulo, Blaster Master, Coratanni, and great for Revan. Juggs: Sword Squadron, Underlurker, Blaster Master, Torque (even after the changes I'd rather have a jugg)

 

This change does not in any way wildly swing balance away from juggs. I know many tanks that are top tier that will still play their Jugg over anything else.

 

I've seen these wild twitch streams where guilds think that they are somehow using a non-optimal tank comp on Blaster Master if they don't use PTs or Vanguards. True story: from a mitigation standpoint, PTs are HORRIBLE on Blaster Master HM. Juggs are better, and Sins completely trivialize the fight.

 

/endrant

 

You're talking about mitigation profile as if it's the only thing that matters, when it's clearly not ever been important enough to prevent teams from getting world first kills on a regular basis. People spent months complaining about how terrible Sins were in the TFB and SnV NiM operations solely due to the mitigation profile and yet the first two teams to beat them both used Assassin tanks. Being able to cheese mechanics, giving your team powerful utility (Sonic Rebounders is vastly better than the AoE Shield from Juggernauts) to let them cheese mechanics, relatively low spikiness, and good defensive cooldowns for once have made Vanguards/Powertechs significantly better than they were in the past.

 

It's not even the design of their discipline that's a problem, it's the design of the new operations being so biased in favor of Hydraulics + Sonic Rebounder that has made Vanguards/Powertechs the best in general for right now. Guardians/Juggernauts are definitely the worst tanks for these new fights (as they have been for most operations) even though tank balance is actually quite good for the most part. Mitigation is only a small piece of the picture so your focus on it is inaccurate on why Vanguards/PTs are awesome right now.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Vaidinah

[justinplainview]

I don't get this uproar over Saber Reflect being fixed on this fight since it was ridiculously overpowered on that fight. I do understand that people are annoyed that Bioware fixes really minor issues like this over much bigger problems in the game. However, those people just don't understand that's not a problem with the wrong priorities. Some bugs/problems are just a lot easier to fix so they get resolved first because if they can be done in a short amount of time + manpower and/or with a relatively low chance at introducing new bugs (a general concern in programming) even with massive issues still around.

 

 

 

You're talking about mitigation profile as if it's the only thing that matters, when it's clearly not ever been important enough to prevent teams from getting world first kills on a regular basis. People spent months complaining about how terrible Sins were in the TFB and SnV NiM operations solely due to the mitigation profile and yet the first two teams to beat them both used Assassin tanks. Being able to cheese mechanics, giving your team powerful utility (Sonic Rebounders is vastly better than the AoE Shield from Juggernauts) to let them cheese mechanics, relatively low spikiness, and good defensive cooldowns for once have made Vanguards/Powertechs significantly better than they were in the past.

 

It's not even the design of their discipline that's a problem, it's the design of the new operations being so biased in favor of Hydraulics + Sonic Rebounder that has made Vanguards/Powertechs the best in general for right now. Guardians/Juggernauts are definitely the worst tanks for these new fights (as they have been for most operations) even though tank balance is actually quite good for the most part. Mitigation is only a small piece of the picture so your focus on it is inaccurate on why Vanguards/PTs are awesome right now.

 

PTs are awesome right now. I'm not focusing only on mitigation and forgetting about mechanics, I'm just aware that Juggs and Sins are able to do the mechanics of all the fights. If people think hydraulics for one section of one fight are a reason to not use Sins or Juggs, then that's their problem. I'm just tired of the ridiculous whining about how sin tanks and jugg tanks can't compete, because it's simply not true. Juggs are third overall in my opinion taking every fight into it, but the idea that there are no fights that they are good at is ridiculous.

[justinplainview]

I never said PT tanks are the best or ever claim that (I main a PT tank). Yes 6-7 GCDs were a way smaller issue than floor vent reflect. And I apologize if you take offense for using that as example but using an example that highlight the principIe, I could find several other ones as well.But to me it doesn't matter if one is bigger than the other, it is still having unintended effect of making certain classes have a distinct "negating mechanic abilities" no matter if one is not as big as the other. 6-7 GCDs may be small but it's 6-7 other classes did not have which again is my point (Which it was why it was patched) even if PTs are bad for the fight. Same as oil slick giving more uptime on the boss that isn't available for others. IMHO, It's the principle of classes having a ability that negates mechanics no matter how trivial which I dislike. Yes certain classes would always be better in fights but it should not overshadow other comps or negate any mechanic.

 

The part where I start ranting had nothing to do with your post, I just had to rant for a bit because of all the next level whining based on incorrect assumptions that I see in these forums. No need to apologize. I'm sorry if you thought I was jumping down your neck about it.

[darth_psychose]

think i can no longer use this interface

[Ardarell_Solo]

Yes certain classes would always be better in fights but it should not overshadow other comps or negate any mechanic.

 

That's a fine line imo. Shadow's ability to "negate" some mechanics via Resilience is the main point of playing the class, because without it, shadows couldn't ever compete with the two "hard" tank classes, could they?

Edited March 4, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo