soowonlee Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Suppose that you purchase a jigsaw puzzle and find that you are unable to complete it. Does the maker of the puzzle owe you an easier version of the puzzle? If so, why? If not, then reason by analogy to 3.0 operations. If you think the inference fails, then point out the relevant disanalogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Island_Jedi Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Suppose that you purchase a jigsaw puzzle and find that you are unable to complete it. Does the maker of the puzzle owe you an easier version of the puzzle? If so, why? If not, then reason by analogy to 3.0 operations. If you think the inference fails, then point out the relevant disanalogy. The funny thing is alot of times the company will offer easier puzzles for you to complete. Unfortunately where your argument does not translate is, you cannot compare doing easier puzzles to doing old ops. New content is a huge part of keeping an MMO alive and forcing "bads" to exist in the old content will make them unsub. You cannot change bad, you can however give "bad" something to keep them around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) WTB Kephess Jiggsaw puzzle. On a serious note, while I agree 100% , I don't think we need a third thread on this as it makes to exaggerate the amount of people calling for nerfs and that this is worthy topic of debate. It's not and the few whiners don't need more spotlight. Edited March 1, 2015 by FerkWork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) The funny thing is alot of times the company will offer easier puzzles for you to complete. Unfortunately where your argument does not translate is, you cannot compare doing easier puzzles to doing old ops. New content is a huge part of keeping an MMO alive and forcing "bads" to exist in the old content will make them unsub. You cannot change bad, you can however give "bad" something to keep them around. You exaggerate the amount of bads who refuse to learn in this game. Most are average. Everyone starts bad and gets better. Majority do and love the new challenges the ops bring. If it means the few bads who make it worse for everyone leave, then I say good riddance and this difficulty will attract more and better players who to don't end up in the weird group finder thread or my ignore list. /thread Edited March 1, 2015 by FerkWork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Island_Jedi Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) You exaggerate the amount of bads who refuse to learn in this game. Most are average. Everyone starts bad and gets better. Majority do and love the new challenges the ops bring. If it means the few bads who make it worse for everyone leave, then I say good riddance and this difficulty will attract more and better players who to don't end up in the weird group finder thread or my ignore list. /thread If the game is not brimming with "bads" and we can afford to finance the game without them, then I can agree with you. BUT if your wrong, it will kill the game, so lets hope Bioware knows what they are doing. Slowly and methodically changing your player base to be more competent is fine, the game can handle that. Sudden shifts can derail the financing of the game and that is what I am worried about. Edited March 1, 2015 by Island_Jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profvarg Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 It is true (only if you pay for multiple puzzles, not a one-time purchase), but let's think in broader terms You buy a puzzle, but you can't complete it, so you put it away and after several time probably will not buy from the same company again. The company suffers in profits, because it loses a buying customer. After a while, it decides that it either needs to do easier puzzles or quit making them. You are a puzzle loving person, who can do all puzzles, but after a while the easy ones annoy you and you almost never do them (maybe for practice). If the company quits making puzzles, you can not buy them anymore, so you are sad. If the company starts making easier puzzles, more people can enjoy them, but you will suffer, since you do not like not challenging puzzles. But since the company does not quits the puzzle making business (and can sell more puzzles, since more people can do them) you have a chance that it will do harder puzzles AND easier puzzles. SM ops should be doable by the average pug (not the rolling-face-on-keyboard pug), HMs and NIMs are for progression raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athena-Nike Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 If the puzzle had pieces that didn't fit, and they knew they didn't fit and they refused to send you pieces that actually fit then that would be an apt analogy of the current ops. Cor still isn't totally fixed, underlurker has had numerous issues since launch, the loot tables and 16m mechanics were all messed up for much of the time it was released. If the ops worked as intended I'd have no problem with their difficulty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotader Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Story Mode should be for the story. It should be reasonable to complete with a random pick up group/group finder. There are some people that are just not able to experience the story because they can't get past certain bosses without joining a raid guild. Simple answer is to make SM ops all about casual raiding and and the story. Maybe either remove enrage timers or extend them so teams that don't run together all the time can complete them. You would still have to survive mechanics, but there will be less stress about dealing high damage. Hard mode is for prog raiders. Harder mechanics, higher damage requirements and bigger rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banegio Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Times changed. Not sure how many people had arcade gaming experience when they were young. A dollar a pop. You came back every day after school to have a go. I always wonder how many percentage of people actually got to the final boss. I doubt that % was any higher than the % guild getting nim down in swtor. Yet people were still happy to keep sinking money just to experience the first few levels in arcade game repeatedly. The cause? One of them is Tying the enjoyment to loot. And bw have made elite & ulti gear way too easy to obtain. Edited March 2, 2015 by Banegio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Story Mode should be for the story. It should be reasonable to complete with a random pick up group/group finder. There are some people that are just not able to experience the story because they can't get past certain bosses without joining a raid guild. Simple answer is to make SM ops all about casual raiding and and the story. Maybe either remove enrage timers or extend them so teams that don't run together all the time can complete them. You would still have to survive mechanics, but there will be less stress about dealing high damage. Hard mode is for prog raiders. Harder mechanics, higher damage requirements and bigger rewards. Thing is, these HMs are some of the toughest yet. Making the SMs easier would make the gap between SM and HM HUUUUUUUUUUUGE and would actually hurt casuals who tried to go from SM to HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Island_Jedi Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 who says they want to go to HM at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorddahl Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 who says they want to go to HM at all? you just want easier ops so you can walk through it hitting random buttons not learning anything about your class or the raid and want to be rewarded for it i cant stand by this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeSaber Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I hate puzzles. j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Suppose that you purchase a jigsaw puzzle and find that you are unable to complete it. Does the maker of the puzzle owe you an easier version of the puzzle? If so, why? If not, then reason by analogy to 3.0 operations. If you think the inference fails, then point out the relevant disanalogy. Aslong as all the puzzle pieces are there and they actually fit together and does not bug out and change shape, I am all for this. Edited March 2, 2015 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinmagus Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Probably I'm the only one with it but I enjoy slowly but actually progressing througg content. When we first tried Malaphar HM we got wiped 2-3 times and we were tired of trying so we gave up.Next week:first try success. Failing is not an outcome just a step for successing(omg that was a big cliché). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCJK Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Story Mode should be for the story. If you ONLY want story, you can always watch ops videos on youtube. ]quote]It should be reasonable to complete with a random pick up group/group finder. There are some people that are just not able to experience the story because they can't get past certain bosses without joining a raid guild. Nope, it shouldn't. I mean, it should be puggable unlike HMs, but if any random pug can make it, than it's too easy. And it's not like it's very hard to get a raid in the guild. You don't have to join a raid squad within the guild. Simple answer is to make SM ops all about casual raiding and and the story. If you make SMs even easier than they are now, than it WILL NOT be about casual raiding. Casual raiding is not one shotting content without group coordination and knowing your rotation, tactics. It's not raiding at all. And casual raiding is still raiding, which gives some challenge to average players and groups, requires some teamwork and knowledge of your class. Maybe either remove enrage timers or extend them so teams that don't run together all the time can complete them. You would still have to survive mechanics, but there will be less stress about dealing high damage. What? You don't need a stable raid team to complete SMs. Just a bunch of players who CAN play their class and some coordination and temwork( usually voice channel helps ). Hard mode is for prog raiders. Harder mechanics, higher damage requirements and bigger rewards. Very well. And what casual raiders? If SM will be only for story and ''random-puggable''? Edited March 2, 2015 by LordCJK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I would seriously pay real money for someone to actually try to illustrate their point without some stupid analogy. But if BW continues to cater to the lowest common denominator, this game will be dead. I am sorry, but if you want easy, faceroll content, do a tactical. There is no reason to make SM a cakewalk because a very small minority of players that don't want to dedicate even a small amount of time to learn simple mechanics, then the fault is on them, not on BW. I am a casual player, I own a business and only have a couple hours a night to play. I have no problem dedicating a couple hours to run challenging OPs. I mean this game is hella-easy to begin with, if it is too difficult, maybe they should consider playing pokimon or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 who says they want to go to HM at all? I meant for everyone in this case. I'm working on HM right now and if SM had been toned down more it would be even tougher to clear HM. Heck, my guild's progression team is still working on HM Revan (9/10), and I suspect many guilds would have appreciated SM Revan having more HM mechanics to lessen the difficulty gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Suppose that you purchase a jigsaw puzzle and find that you are unable to complete it. Does the maker of the puzzle owe you an easier version of the puzzle? If so, why? If not, then reason by analogy to 3.0 operations. If you think the inference fails, then point out the relevant disanalogy. At least here in Germany, jigsaw puzzle boxes and all board game boxes in general have an "age suggestion" printed on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoW_LugNut Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) you just want easier ops so you can walk through it hitting random buttons not learning anything about your class or the raid and want to be rewarded for it i cant stand by this 1,000 times this The time spent ************ on the forums about the "difficulty"??? of the story mode ops could be much better spent working on personal improvement so that you can down them. Myself and my group are only 8/10 on both HM ops months after release. Instead of ************ about how difficult it is, we're working on getting the fights downed. How is this such a difficult concept? If you want to breeze through ops and be handed gear, just save your comms, wait until the next tier of gear and then faceroll it like everyone did with SM TFB/S&V/DF/DP for over a year. Edited March 3, 2015 by VoW_LugNut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggseggseggs Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 you just want easier ops so you can walk through it hitting random buttons not learning anything about your class or the raid and want to be rewarded for it i cant stand by this #Dahlforleadoperationsdeveloper2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieGhostDie Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 you just want easier ops so you can walk through it hitting random buttons not learning anything about your class or the raid and want to be rewarded for it i cant stand by this ^ 5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 you just want easier ops so you can walk through it hitting random buttons not learning anything about your class or the raid and want to be rewarded for it i cant stand by this +10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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