12 x XP for class-missions

[DarthDymond]

There's no evidence that these people will remain attached. Most who make the arguments for 12x state they are quitting or already have quit because it takes too long to see the content for subsequent characters.

 

The logical extrapolation of this is, if they are already willing to quit because they are bored of doing stuff, if you give them a fast way to do stuff, they'll do it all, then get bored and they'll still leave.

 

So what you gain, at best, is a very short term period of activity and then lose the player just as you had already supposedly lost the player. They're not suddenly going to decide that doing planetary quests was boring and a grind but doing the same FP/Ops over and over and over again is not a grind and is not boring.

 

Or if they want to run through story quests over and over and over again as that's the only thing they want to do, they're not going to be contributing to your need for an extra healer anyway because they're off re-doing the story for the 'n'th time.

 

Any gains in population will be short term because these gains are from players who have already demonstrated they quit when they get done with something or hit a wall and the inevitable outcome of 12x X is they hit the get done with it/hit that wall and they are enabled to do so faster.

Assuming for the sake of argument that everything you say is true, then the choice is between those players simply not playing (no 12x) and those players playing for a short time, or playing strictly solo (with 12x). The 12x choice is still better for the game in that scenario if for nothing else than for the $ that comes in from a CM purchase or CC option on the Legacy Unlock - and that's leaving aside even the possibility that some of those players will get 'pulled back in' over the course of playing when they otherwise would have left the game behind.

Edited March 11, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Clarian]

Assuming for the sake of argument that everything you say is true, then the choice is between those players simply not playing (no 12x) and those players playing for a short time, or playing strictly solo (with 12x). The 12x choice is still better for the game in that scenario if for nothing else than for the $ that comes in from a CM purchase or CC option on the Legacy Unlock - and that's leaving aside even the possibility that some of those players will get 'pulled back in' over the course of playing when they otherwise would have left the game behind.

You're forgetting about all the players who would take 12x xp if it were available - but would keep playing the game even if it weren't. In other words, the people who would prefer it, but don't insist on it. I would bet they greatly outnumber the people who insist on it.

 

Then the choice is between them staying around for a long time, or leaving in a hurry. So with them in the equation, I think there would be less revenue over the long term, not more.

[EllieAnne]

The concern is NOT how many low level players there are. The concern is how many low level players doing low level content that requires a group there are, and how many low level players who will be interacting with other low level players because they are doing the same quests and experiencing the same leveling curve there are.. Most specifically, NEW players or players without a 12x boost.

.

 

But wait, your side said I should get a high-level friend or guildie to run me through the quests. So how does that help other low-level players? Your side should really make up its mind.

[DarthDymond]

You're forgetting about all the players who would take 12x xp if it were available - but would keep playing the game even if it weren't. In other words, the people who would prefer it, but don't insist on it. I would bet they greatly outnumber the people who insist on it.

 

Then the choice is between them staying around for a long time, or leaving in a hurry. So with them in the equation, I think there would be less revenue over the long term, not more.

None of us have any sort of actual metrics or researched projections, but I expect that such people would be offset (at least) by the people who, with 12XP, will play through more classes than they would without. That is, people who might slog through 2 or 3 characters without 12XP, but will level up 5 or 6 when they can just do Class Stories.

[Clarian]

I expect that such people would be offset (at least) by the people who, with 12XP, will play through more classes than they would without. That is, people who might slog through 2 or 3 characters without 12XP, but will level up 5 or 6 when they can just do Class Stories.

I don't. I just don't think there are enough class stories of enough length to make up that much time. And they're not going to be getting anything added to them...

[Darth_Wicked]

I don't. I just don't think there are enough class stories of enough length to make up that much time. And they're not going to be getting anything added to them...

 

I never tried it but honestly, I always found it hard to believe the class stories by themselves have sufficient meat to them, as far as telling this greater than life and / or grandiose event that is transpiring throughout the galaxy.

 

Then again, not really interested in finding out.

 

Plus, as you said, once you're done with the Vanilla experience, it's not like there's more of it waiting for ye.

[Liquor]

don't forget the crew skills will suffer. sure lowbies will need gear, but far less often and for a much shorter time.

why gear up hard when you can blow through content quickly in the storymode?

 

well since most are leveling up ALTs then they can easily move gear from their main to the lowbie characters, well then, didn't that just cut out crew skill gathering from the GTN and crafted lowbie gear? sure some will purchase it but when you already have higher level characters with maxed out crew skills, you will just craft your own and mail it too your lowbie.

 

prices will drop, no one is buying. so all these guys that are grinding out lowbie crew skills will take a hit. why would I continue grinding out mats when they aren't in demand???

 

****

[Liquor]

I don't. I just don't think there are enough class stories of enough length to make up that much time. And they're not going to be getting anything added to them...

 

x12 XP class missions will get you too around lvl 48. maybe 50 with some side missions (heroics, fp, wz, space)

Edited March 11, 2015 by Liquor

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Except going to middle school isn't really a job, right?

 

So again with the insults and calling people lazy because they do not want to play your style. And how do you know BW intended the game to be a continual grind? They are not a Korean company and they placed emphasis on the story. They certainly do not reward people who grind out levels except some good gear is buyable at level 50, the rest is buyable if you do the whole 2 hours of grinding to lvl 10. They have a multitude of ways to earn extra XP, more than any other MMO and to top it off, they had the 12xXP because getting to the end story to be ready for SoR was more important then grinding to it.

 

So what is your proof besides YOUR definition of an MMO that BW intends the grinding to be a major part of the game.

 

It is not OUR definition, it is a definition of MMOs since they started. If you dont understand that, maybe a different type game is better suited for your playstyle? I dont mean that as insulting, but to be brutally honest, the definition of a MMO is a constant experience grind. Always has been.

 

if there was any serious benefit for BW to do this, they would have done it all ready...

Edited March 11, 2015 by lightSaberAddiCt

[EnkiduNineEight]

But wait, your side said I should get a high-level friend or guildie to run me through the quests. So how does that help other low-level players? Your side should really make up its mind.

 

That's not 'my side'.

 

I've already stated that I believe all the various additions to make things easier have in fact already damaged the game and I have in fact cited that the current 'barren' nature of low level planets etc is indicative that the leveling curve having been neutered so much as it has already and how easy it is for anyone with a prior 50+ character to level a new character has done damage to the game and that 12x XP _exacerbates_ the problem on a significant order of magnitude that it would be much worse then the already poor state.

 

I have said that IF you really want to do super fast/easy leveling there exits ways to do it. I do not suggest or truly advocate this. But I acknowledge it exists.

Edited March 11, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[EnkiduNineEight]

None of us have any sort of actual metrics or researched projections, but I expect that such people would be offset (at least) by the people who, with 12XP, will play through more classes than they would without. That is, people who might slog through 2 or 3 characters without 12XP, but will level up 5 or 6 when they can just do Class Stories.

 

I understand your point but would note and argue that even if you saw a slight bump in retention of existing players by adding 12x the damage you do to the new player experience and thus the reduction of potential new customers greater and more damaging overall to the future financial health and social health of the game.

[Liquor]

Question for Ratajack, Liquor & Ekidu

Have you EVER had a toon under level 60 and

Used an XP tab? Yes and Yes

Played during double XP weekend? Yes

Received 12xXP during the promotion? Yes

Been in a guild providing XP addons? Yes

 

I went through my toons in a previous post on this thread. 5 Pot5 (All Lowbies) and 22 Shadowlands. 3 mains are operatives 1 sniper, 2 jug tanks, 1 powertech tank, 1 pub (not used often) those are my max lvls. the rest all are between lvl 1-50 and are crew skill whores and credit/material mules and name placement holders.

 

I use WZ xp boosts to keep wz lvls close to current lvl

I use XP boosts of all sorts to lvl up.

I used the x12 XP boost on the sniper only. to see how the feature worked and to have another Cunning user in for Operations and WZ/PvP content though rarely used unless WZ Comms. my Operatives do most of the work.

 

2 of the operatives never touched story after Dromund Kaas. got the ship for travel, opened up expansion worlds and that's it for story.

 

when I do lvl up my pubs, they will all be WZ runs for pvp only and story will come later. if x12 XP comes, they will not get an AC for the LuLz (I'm a dick, I know this already) but looks like they will get story mode done

[EllieAnne]

It is not OUR definition, it is a definition of MMOs since they started. If you dont understand that, maybe a different type game is better suited for your playstyle? I dont mean that as insulting, but to be brutally honest, the definition of a MMO is a constant experience grind. Always has been.

 

EXCEPT one point I made a while back that no one addressed either to agree or disagree:

In most MMOs, you play three maybe four toons. Yes there are hardcore gamers that have a ton of toons but most people have only a few toons. I have spent years on MMOs grinding them out because that's what you do on MMOs right?

 

But SWTOR is (supposed to be) different. We are supposed to be immersed in the story and last I counted, there are at least 10 different stories. That's something you don't have on any other MMO. So I get the grinding meme and no I am not lazy - my next MMO will be Black Desert which is Korean and therefore I expect to grind until my corneas bleed. But I would argue that the grinding mentality is not the focus of this game and TBH everything I have seen from BW would indicate I am correct.

 

So I do understand MMOs, but I also understand that this MMO is (intended to be) different so I don't think it's right to have the same expectations as a traditional MMO.

 

Now with that in mind, if I grind out 4 stories which is the equivalent of the grinding on most MMOs (which is why I advocate having to level each mirror class), should I be required to grind even more to get to the selling point of the MMO.

[CloudCastle]

A lot of the arguments I'm seeing here assume that 12x, if offered, will be overwhelmingly popular, to the point that only a fraction of players will be playing the "old way" and a massive imbalance to the game will occur. I don't think this will happen, nor have I seen any evidence that this will happen.

 

If offered to long term players only, with some sort of prerequisite, some players will use it, some won't, some may only try it out. With no "limited time" restriction on the perk, there won't be any massive, simultaneous rush to use it.

 

If 12x is offered to new players, I think anyone buying it is either very brave or very stupid. I don't think this will have much affect on other players, but it will drastically effect the new player using it. They will miss out on the bulk of the game's content and they will struggle mightily with earning money and gearing (very few comms!) If they are geared poorly, then they are also going to find the game's fights very challenging, and probably frustrating as well. If someone wants to do it anyway, well, that's their prerogative, but I don't think many will. There are simply too many road-blocks for a new player to overcome. I don't think there will be much of a demand for it either. Why play a game if you are going to skip the bulk of its content? End game is only a fraction of what SWTOR is a about.

 

Saying there will be a massive rush of players using this, completely abandoning their previous chars and preferred activities in game, is just not likely.

[EliteSeraph]

 

So sure, you may have 60+ people on Tython or Korriban, but only 3 of them are actually playing the game,

 

You seem to be really stuck on this concept. Listen to yourself! By that logic anyone who isn't playing the game by your narrow definition doesn't count as "actually playing the game".

 

What about people who do nothing but level through PVP? By your logic those players aren't actually playing the game because they aren't involving themselves in PVE missions. The fact that you personally don't like how they play doesn't invalidate that.

 

What about guilds or small groups of friends who just grind out FPs and KDY, and never interact with anyone outside of their group? They're clearly not actually playing the game because they aren't doing every planet's mission and all it's heroics and bonus series.

 

What about solo players like me who don't ever bother with heroic missions or PVP, and rarely run FPs? Clearly I'm being lazy and not actually playing the game because I skip the parts of the game I don't like!

 

What about a person who only logs on occasionally to play Space Missions and Galactic Starfighter, because they just love spaceships? They're not actually playing the game either, right?

 

You should consider that different people experience the game in different ways. Everyone's definition of fun is different, and people play MMOs for different reasons. 12s would not hurt the game any more than any other style of play, be it PVP leveling, FP grinding, Space Missions, or regular mission grind.

 

 

and the others are zooming through class missions on their way to the fleet so they can rush off to Coruscant/Dromund Kaas and blitz through the class quests to get their ship so they can rush off to another planet and do more class quests and never once interact with or do anything with any other player, touch any planetary quests, find a group or respnd to a grouping request toperform a heroic, etc.

 

Sothey are 'present' but they are not contributingin any way t the population.

 

And why should they? If they don't' want to interact with other people while playing the game, why should they have to? I've gone through entire planets without doing any more interaction than saying a couple words in general chat. This didn't hurt ANYTHING. Once again you seem to be under the impression that there's only a single, VERY narrow way to play this game, and that any other way would irrevocably harm/destroy the play of everyone else.

 

People are going to play the game how THEY want, not how YOU want. 12x doesn't change that.

 

 

Which may actually be WORSE than a slightly barren planet because the new players experience is that the majority of the players are impatient a-holes who can't be bothered to give you the time of day, who rush through and take mobs etc that you were killing and then rush off to the next step without so much as a how do you do... etc. because they are too focused in rushing through the main story line and don't want to be bothered with anything else.

 

Reality check......everything you just described ALREADY happens in the absence of 12x. You're attempting to associate negative attributes of players with an unrelated option of the game. A-holes are A-holes; the speed that they level up doesn't change that.

 

 

But the vast majority of the people using this easy mode/accelerated leveling will be doing it with the express purposes of maxxing out their character so they can move on to the next one or their next FOTM build and they really don't care at all about anything but that.

 

 

Even if there WAS evidence to support this, why does it matter if someone wants to constantly switch alts? How does that effect you personally? How does that hurt your enjoyment of the game?

 

Random LFG queues are hurt because there aren't enough people using it during low levels, or because people in it aren't good enough for your standards? This has ALWAYS been a flaw of a random queue. If you don't like it, don't use it! Form a group with people you know and trust and like.

 

Nobody in general chat wants to run heroic missions because they're too busy doing their own thing(regardless of if it's 12x class missions or not) Go to your friends list or guild!

 

End-game is flooded with FotM? DON'T GROUP WITH THEM! Use people you already know, or maybe join a static raid group that's actually focused on progression.

Edited March 11, 2015 by EliteSeraph

[lightSaberAddiCt]

@Eliteseraph

 

Not going to quote your long winded rant, but pretty sure he meant that a good number are farmers....

 

And it seems more like you believe you being a solo player, that the entire game should cater to your play style. Guess what, this is a MMO, not a single player RPG. Although the game allows a good bit of solo play, it is still a MMO. Any changes to the game, affects a large portion of players.

 

But by all means, keep ranting away, at least it is fun reading, but the truth is, more then likely getting 12x exp outside of maybe right before a new level expansion isnt going to happen. BW just doesnt want to put it in words, they would rather just keep it in the air, so people like you will keep waiting for it.

Edited March 11, 2015 by lightSaberAddiCt

[ivanhedgehog]

It is not OUR definition, it is a definition of MMOs since they started. If you dont understand that, maybe a different type game is better suited for your playstyle? I dont mean that as insulting, but to be brutally honest, the definition of a MMO is a constant experience grind. Always has been.

 

if there was any serious benefit for BW to do this, they would have done it all ready...

 

most mmo's. some have been done differently. but then, we are talking about swtor, which doesnt have to slavishly follow other companies products.

[EnkiduNineEight]

EliteSeraph,

 

I am aware there are a number of ways to already skip this basic stuff.

 

This is why I am opposed to introducing MORE ways to skip it.

 

its already an issue, suggestion would make it worse.

 

Suggestion would also provide additional disadavantages like increasing the ease of getting FOTM classes to end game, etc.

 

EG, suggestion is a net negative. Suggestion exacerbates already identified problems. Suggestion attempts to transform game to Single Player experience at the expense of the MMO experience.

 

Etc.

 

Also, while people may be doing PVP, KDY, just hanign with a small group of friends, etc, in all of those cases they are still restrained and they still have to do _something_ with a roughly equivalent time investment, before they get to the end.

 

12x XP significantly reduces this time investment to inconsequential.

 

Its an end around of the established systems for the lazy, entitled, immediate gratification crowd. and frankly, even if they had it, they wouldn't be happy (they'll then harp for immediately gratified End Game rewards and then threaten to quit if they don't get those too) and a good portion of them will quit no matter what anyway because that's what they do if history is of any judge.

Edited March 11, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[EliteSeraph]

@Eliteseraph

 

Not going to quote your long winded rant, but pretty sure he meant that a good number are farmers....

 

And it seems more like you believe you being a solo player, that the entire game should cater to your play style. Guess what, this is a MMO, not a single player RPG. Although the game allows a good bit of solo play, it is still a MMO. Any changes to the game, affects a large portion of players..

 

Do not make the common mistake of discussing a person instead of the arguments they're making. How I personally play has no bearing on the argument outside of it being an example of a single method of playing the game.

 

The entire concept of MMOs being group only, or having to be required to group in order to enjoy it, is old and outdated. MMOs cover a vast array of different styles of play. While group content is certainly a large part of the genre, it is not the ONLY part, especially in SWTOR where there's such a huge investment in the story aspects of the game.

 

Being "Massive" and "Multiplayer" doesn't necessarily require that those masses be forced into groups in order to enjoy the game. There are other ways to interact within the game and it's players. Including, but not limited to: Guilds, chat channels, the market, the community forums and websites.

 

Regardless, even in it's current state without 12x, SWTOR very easily supports many different styles of play. And that's the point I was making. The simple fact that a game has such massive numbers of players guarantees that not everyone is going to play the same way. Attempting to limit those styles of play down to a single narrow definition(leveling content must be fully exhaustive) is the height of foolishness and arrogance. 12x is just a request to add another style to the already robust array of choices available to players.

Edited March 11, 2015 by EliteSeraph

[lightSaberAddiCt]

most mmo's. some have been done differently. but then, we are talking about swtor, which doesnt have to slavishly follow other companies products.

 

Actually they havent really done anything that different, besides offer full voice over storylines. Thats it. B3sides that, it still follows the same exp equation as any other MMO, they just made leveling way easier. Honestly you have to take calling it grindy with a grain of salt, because this game is hella'easy to level.

[EyesOfRed]

ITT:

 

all the reasons that this SHOULD have been KOTOR 3. No no, you're right, everythings gotta be a damn MMO these days.

 

I plan to play through a few stories and stop. Other MMOs have better end game anyway...

[lightSaberAddiCt]

@eliteseraph

 

sorry cant quote posts more then a a couple paragraphs on my tablet. I keep seeing people say that swtor is so different, when it is not. It is different in 2 ways, first the full voice over storyline, and offering the OPTION to play alot of content solo. Besides that, it is the same as any other MMO.

 

you will notice I said option. It is not based on solo play, it offers the option. But in its bones, it is still a MMO, with alot of group focused content. But no business is going to cut its own throat, and offer a way to blow through only the class story content, because no matter what you say, it will speed up the process of players getting bored and leaving. Because I dont care how much you love the story, after you have blown through them all, multiple times at mach speed, you will then consider them as boring and reptitive as the planet quests.

 

Not only that, but ifmyou offer it as a CM item, you will have people coming in as F2P, spend the amount to get the 12x exp, see all the stories, then have no reason what so ever, to stay and subscribe.

 

Say what you will about EA, but they know the business of gaming, and they will NEVER cut their ability to make the most money.

[EnkiduNineEight]

Regardless, even in it's current state without 12x, SWTOR very easily supports many different styles of play. And that's the point I was making. Attempting to limit those styles of play down to a single narrow definition is the height of foolishness and arrogance. 12x is just a request to add another style to the already robust array available to players.

 

This is where I disagree. Because the 12x request is not about adding a new style of play, its about adding a style of play that obviates the other styles of play in that it presents the rewards in so swift and easy a fashion that for most it would beg to be the default method of play.

 

Its a method of play that damages all the other methods of play, makes them inefficient and undesirable for those looking to achieve the 'end game'.

 

What if the class missions for 12x XP were put on timers so that you could only perform one every two hours (arbitrary number for demonstration purposes only) and that to complete al the story quests in this 12x method ended up taking roughly the same time that it takes the _median_ player to level and achieve the end of their class story?

 

So, for sake of argument, lets say the median player now takes 3 months of real time (maybe 5.7 days played in game time) and so the 12x experience was limited by time lockouts on doing class quests so that the player had to take the same rough amount of time as the Median in order to complete.

 

Will the 12x XP advocates accept this? I wager they would not. But then it would be a 'viable' alternative and just one amongst relatively equal methods of achieving the end.

 

Its demonstrated time and again that this is NOT a playstyle request. Its not about just wanting to see the story lines, its about being able to do this in a time frame that is significantly compressed compared to every other activity in the game.

 

Its about getting it done, and getting it done fast. Who cares what they want to do with the character when they 'get it done' they still want it in a time scale that is so significantly different than every other time scale that the end result (being level 50+) occurs so much faster that it is the de facto best and only way to get a character to the end game.

 

Its not introducing a viable play style option, its superseding all present options with a method that diminishes them simultaneously. And as mentioned and repeated before, creates a method to truly exploit FOTM Classes, damage end game significantly for anyone who then has to deal with the proliferation of FOTM classes/builds, etc while diminishing the already diminished pool of players who were available in the other potential play styles because undoubtedly they would move from that playstyle to this more desirable one proposed.

Edited March 11, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[FAAmecanic]

The entire concept of MMOs being group only, or having to be required to group in order to enjoy it, is old and outdated. MMOs cover a vast array of different styles of play. While group content is certainly a large part of the genre, it is not the ONLY part, especially in SWTOR where there's such a huge investment in the story aspects of the game.

 

Part of the reason The Elder Scrolls Online has crashed and burned (F2P announced less than a year of going live)....the Veteran rank areas (which amount to 4x the amount of the non veteran rank areas) FORCE you to group due to insane level of AI difficulty. Coupled with a horrible grouping mechanic that if your friend/guildie didn't run EXACTLY the same story arc with you...you couldn't group with them. FAIL.....

 

The best part of TESO was the first 50 levels where you could run solo..... forced grouping stinks especially the way TESO implemented the grouping with friends.

Edited March 12, 2015 by FAAmecanic

[FAAmecanic]

IMO the combination from previous threads on the story mission requests throughout the years, and what we have discussed on the x12XP subject to be the best option for the devs to look into.

 

I can see an option to reset the story mission series. its a hard trigger in the game. one that could be reset. the missions follow a path, its a 0 value when you first start a new character. as you complete missions within the story each mission generates a 1 value to show completion. all that would need to be done is a small string of coding to turn those all back to 0's. then another line to remove mission rewards from the completion announcement ingame.

 

this will keep those missions you have not completed yet as 0s and their rewards still available. its not a lot of work to code in. test and tweak as needed. but is there enough interest to convince the Devs to do this? I think so

 

 

Story Mission Reset Switch:

 

• the leveling process doesn't change.
  
• the option to reset the story missions as many times as you like.
  
• able to reset the mission series at anytime.
  
• but once reset, no mission rewards, credits, XP is given from previous completed story missions
  
• Alignment gains and loses are active since they apply to choices and direction of story lines
  
• Companion Affection stays as it can impact the story a small amount - mostly your decisions on options
  
• if you reset at the end of chapter 1, beginning of chapter 2, you still receive xp, credits, rewards for the story missions you have not completed yet.

 

so the leveling process can continue "where you left off". but once completed, you are not rewarded a 2nd time.

this will prevent farming of anything from story missions. in case anything of value is actually added to a following line later on

 

added the alignment. it does impact story line choices and thus should still be active.

companion affection stays

 

making a new thread just for this to gage interest Link to Thread

 

Agreed..... thumbs up here. I will accept having to grind out a new toon if I wanted to have a different advanced class (which I wont do except on BW sanctioned XP boost events).

 

But that's because Im a Glass half full kinda guy....